Does anyone remember the update when Greater Conflagration and Winter were changed to 3 second casts? They are currently the only ranger spirits with a 3 second cast.
I went and looked in Guildwiki, and the date when they were changed in the article was the 23rd of May, 2006.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki?title=Greater_Conflagration&diff=next&oldid=1 51925
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki?title=W...t&oldid=151956
But no mention in the GuildWiki pages here:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Game_updates/2006_May#Update__.E2.80.93_Tuesday.2C_May_23.2C_20 06
Nor in the Guild Wars game update pages here:
http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2006-05.php
When were they changed? On the 23rd like the article history suggests? Before that? Maybe I should/someone should contact the person that did this update to the pages for the skills? See how he noticed it.
Just a couple of days ago Gaile said they never do stealth updates unless they slip through the cracks. Izzy is responsible for game balance changes, which this falls under. He is very rigoris in his update logs, so I really doubt something like this went live and Izzy forgeting to get it added to the logs.
Is this proof of a stealth update?
Discuss.
Was Greater Conflag and Winter changed without notifying us?
Falrow
KamikazeChicken
Neither are any different than they were. I almost want to say neither of these skills were ever change, since the release over a year ago. People edit things all the time on Wiki for absolutely no reason. Hell, the Rotscale page was edited one day just to remove the Green from the rotwing bow text. >.>
Falrow
Err, verify before you talk?
The skills are indeed 3 second activation time in game, go and check if you doubt me.
Also, just last skill update Greater was changed to 45 second recast instead of it's starting 60.
Next time think before you post, mmmmk?
The skills are indeed 3 second activation time in game, go and check if you doubt me.
Also, just last skill update Greater was changed to 45 second recast instead of it's starting 60.
Next time think before you post, mmmmk?
Kalki
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Originally Posted by Falrow
Is the proof of a stealth update?
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I never payed attention to those skills casting time, but I guess it always felt like 3 seconds. Maybe I'm just another brainwashed Anet fanboy though. Either that or you're paranoid and need to get out and enjoy your summer more.
Unrealer
okay, not like it was a good to skill to begin with, and besides from that, no one ever uses it, why do you take notice in these stupid retarded stuffs?
RTSFirebat
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Originally Posted by Falrow
Err, verify before you talk?
The skills are indeed 3 second activation time in game, go and check if you doubt me. Also, just last skill update Greater was changed to 45 second recast instead of it's starting 60. Next time think before you post, mmmmk? |
I've been a Ranger since day one, and as far as I can tell these two skills have never been changed ever... both cost and recharge time.
I do think that Winter and Greater Conflag did have a 60 sec recharge time. Maybe they were changed in one of the many skills balances done by A.net.
But neverthless I don't see why this is such a big deal, they aren't the greatest skills in the game, useful but not the greatest.
You could sent A.net support a message and ask them directly if its changed?
Curse You
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
Can you not be so rude? Try to be a bit more polite on these forums.
I've been a Ranger since day one, and as far as I can tell these two skills have never been changed ever... both cost and recharge time. I do think that Winter and Greater Conflag did have a 60 sec recharge time. Maybe they were changed in one of the many skills balances done by A.net. But neverthless I don't see why this is such a big deal, they aren't the greatest skills in the game, useful but not the greatest. You could sent A.net support a message and ask them directly if its changed? |
Also, I don't think trying to contact Anet will yeild much good. They tend to direct you to one of these sites.
Kalki
I think Firebat forgot about the secret consipiracy to ruin everyone's life! ANet won't give you the Truth only the "truth"...
/queue xfilesmusic
/queue xfilesmusic
Falrow
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Originally Posted by Kalki
Proof? LOL! Don't ever become a lawyer.
I never payed attention to those skills casting time, but I guess it always felt like 3 seconds. Maybe I'm just another brainwashed Anet fanboy though. Either that or you're paranoid and need to get out and enjoy your summer more. |
I'm just as much in love with Anet as the next fanboy, but:
1. Someone has to play devils advocate.
2. I'd rather keep them on the straight and narrow path of making good games with transparency by pointing out every little mistake they make. Makes it less likely they make the big mistakes that acctually make a difference.
3. Just recently the subject of stealth updates was discussed with Gaile.
Also I'm very sure it was 5 seconds at release, otherwise it would never have been entered as a 5 second skill in the wiki, then have the page changed only 2 months ago to 3 seconds. Here's the GuildWarsGuru skill page, that currently says 5 second activation:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/4...-conflagration
KamikazeChicken
These skills were used heavily back in the age of spirit spam, so let's not say they were never used.
Falrow
Also, no one has any theories as to when it was changed to 3 second activation? It's sometime before May 24th, we know that much.
Anybody?
Also I find it much more effective getting Anet's attention by getting a good thread going about the issue rather then simply me telling them. They say it themselfs, they read the forums everyday, but I bet only certain people (PR people) are allowed to post as Anet on community forums.
Also by making a thread you can be sure you are correct, instead of looking over one small thing and wasting their time
Anybody?
Also I find it much more effective getting Anet's attention by getting a good thread going about the issue rather then simply me telling them. They say it themselfs, they read the forums everyday, but I bet only certain people (PR people) are allowed to post as Anet on community forums.
Also by making a thread you can be sure you are correct, instead of looking over one small thing and wasting their time
Kalki
Alright then I'll do my own little research on this, and contribute to your investigation. My last 2 posts were sarcastic, but now I'm serious. I'll post what I find in an hour.
RTSFirebat
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Originally Posted by Curse You
First off, they got changed. They have 45 second recharge now.
Also, I don't think trying to contact Anet will yeild much good. They tend to direct you to one of these sites. |
Also I've contact A.net for information, and got replies plenty of times. So why not give it a try? If your polite in your message you always get a reply
ArTy
Well GWG still has the recharge listed as 5 so something was changed at one time 
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/4...-conflagration
The truth is out there! >_>
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/4...-conflagration
The truth is out there! >_>
Falrow
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Originally Posted by Falrow
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Originally Posted by ArTy
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Anyways, yah thanks for helping. Any crazy theories?
shardfenix
Fact: They cost 3 seconds now. Deal with it, those skills suck anyway.
Another fact: They do stealth updates 50% of the time. Check the notes on guildwiki's update logs about all the things aded to the game that never hit the GW site. (pet dp anyone?)
Another fact: They do stealth updates 50% of the time. Check the notes on guildwiki's update logs about all the things aded to the game that never hit the GW site. (pet dp anyone?)
RTSFirebat
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Originally Posted by shardfenix
Fact: They cost 3 seconds now. Deal with it, those skills suck anyway.
Another fact: They do stealth updates 50% of the time. Check the notes on guildwiki's update logs about all the things aded to the game that never hit the GW site. (pet dp anyone?) |
Quote:
| Pets do not receive Death Penalty. NOTE:As of the Friday July 14th update, pets now DO receive death penalty in PvP. Proof of this can be seen in the thread here:http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=410690, where multiple parties have conducted tests proving that pets do now receive the penalty. Gaile has now confirmed that pets DO receive DP in PvP, and has ALSO confirmed that the same change will eventually be implemented in PvE play. |
Falrow
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Originally Posted by shardfenix
Fact: They cost 3 seconds now. Deal with it, those skills suck anyway.
Another fact: They do stealth updates 50% of the time. Check the notes on guildwiki's update logs about all the things aded to the game that never hit the GW site. (pet dp anyone?) |
Honestly tho, it doesn't matter how important the change is it matters that they FORGET TO POST SOME OF THE SKILL UPDATES. What else has been missed?
Note: Don't Hi-jack threads to discuss Pet DP. Not like there isn't enoght places to discuss it. If you just wanted to correct him I'm sure a PM would have worked.
RTSFirebat
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Originally Posted by Falrow
Note: Don't Hi-jack threads to discuss Pet DP. Not like there isn't enoght places to discuss it. If you just wanted to correct him I'm sure a PM would have worked.
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Your new to the forums it seems. I think you need to relax a bit mate
Its very common for threads to go off topic here, but the always correct themselves, now back on topic.
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Originally Posted by Falrow
Honestly tho, it doesn't matter how important the change is it matters that they FORGET TO POST SOME OF THE SKILL UPDATES. What else has been missed?
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Well in truth no one is perfect, nor is A.net. Companies make mistakes on their patch notes all the time. Often the reason they don't document some changes is due to last minute corrections or additions. Thus they don't modify the patch notes.
Another reason is due to the fact larger updates often change a whole lot of things, so I'm sure its fairly easy for them to mistakely leave some changes out.
They don't purposely do stealth updates unless there is a reason to.
Kalki
Well, I did searches through the whole guildwars.com archive of update notes, and couldn't find the casting time changes to Winter and GC. It is strange that Conflagration still has a casting time of 5 seconds yet Winter and GC have a casting time of 3 seconds though.
I'm assuming the change to these skills was made either in April or May, and weren't documented by accident, because they had A LOT of work to do during that time. It's also possible that these 2 skills always had casting times of 3 seconds, and people just assumed "all spirits have 5 second casts". I'm sure mistakes are made in the update notes from time to time, but I still don't see any proof a mistake was made here, only some circumstantial evidence.
You should message Gusnana1412 from guildwiki, since he made the change to the guildwiki page, and is the first known witness to the skill changes.
I'm assuming the change to these skills was made either in April or May, and weren't documented by accident, because they had A LOT of work to do during that time. It's also possible that these 2 skills always had casting times of 3 seconds, and people just assumed "all spirits have 5 second casts". I'm sure mistakes are made in the update notes from time to time, but I still don't see any proof a mistake was made here, only some circumstantial evidence.
You should message Gusnana1412 from guildwiki, since he made the change to the guildwiki page, and is the first known witness to the skill changes.
Falrow
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
You said that "Gaile said they never do stealth updates unless they slip through the cracks".
Well in truth no one is perfect, nor is A.net. Companies make mistakes on their patch notes all the time. Often the reason they don't document some changes is due to last minute corrections or additions. Thus they don't modify the patch notes. Another reason is due to the fact larger updates often change a whole lot of things, so I'm sure its fairly easy for them to mistakely leave some changes out. They don't purposely do stealth updates unless there is a reason to. |
1. They did the skill change last minute. I doubt they would forget to post the change if they did it just as they were streaming the update.
2. They forgot they changed the skill. Or they changed the two skills without changing anything else and the whole section of changed skills slipped through.
3. They intentionnally did a stealth update.
4. Some other reason. Typo that was forgotten, air headedness, whatever.
Now I can't figure out which of the top 3 is worse. And considering it's quite likely one of the top 2, that seems QUITE bad to me. I'd very much doubt they would forget to post something like "Ether Renewal now has a 30 second duration", but the fact that a problem like that might exsist is troublesome in the least.
Making mistakes in programing and website design isn't a capital offense. Not having any kind of review or error catching system in place for a multi-million person game seems like a rather large oversight. Or ofcourse they could just rely on us to do their beta testing when they roll their Builds to the live servers...
RTSFirebat
Good points. But thoese are the reasons I can think of, never said any of them were good or bad reasons.
Well Beta testers have been known to overlook and make mistakes about things. Same applies to the webprogrammers who look after the Guild Wars sites and post patch notes.
Same goes for the progammers who provide the list of changes.
Think this and all undocumented changes are a result of simple human error and mistakes do happen
But you right in the fact that mistakes shouldn't be made, but the fact is they do happen
Well Beta testers have been known to overlook and make mistakes about things. Same applies to the webprogrammers who look after the Guild Wars sites and post patch notes.
Same goes for the progammers who provide the list of changes.
Think this and all undocumented changes are a result of simple human error and mistakes do happen
But you right in the fact that mistakes shouldn't be made, but the fact is they do happen
Falrow
I guess my whole point is that atleast more care should be taken posting skill changes, and hopefully more care in general about all changes, even tho most of them feel like easter eggs, which I really don't mind.
It's cool not posting everything for pve, but for pvp it seems obvious extra care should be taken. They seem to get every change to every quest, but I have no way of knowing if thats right.
Also I would be cool for an after-the-fact update. "We changed this to this and forgot to mention here, so we are telling you now". Not like they don't know they forgot to mention it, they read the forums right?
But of course that would have Anet admiting a mistake, something they seem quite bad at.
Edit: Sure, Gaile seems fine at admiting her companies mistakes, probably because she has experience in customer service and knows the first step to solving a problem is to admit to the problem.
It's cool not posting everything for pve, but for pvp it seems obvious extra care should be taken. They seem to get every change to every quest, but I have no way of knowing if thats right.
Also I would be cool for an after-the-fact update. "We changed this to this and forgot to mention here, so we are telling you now". Not like they don't know they forgot to mention it, they read the forums right?
But of course that would have Anet admiting a mistake, something they seem quite bad at.
Edit: Sure, Gaile seems fine at admiting her companies mistakes, probably because she has experience in customer service and knows the first step to solving a problem is to admit to the problem.
fallot
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
Think this and all undocumented changes are a result of simple human error and mistakes do happen
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The furor over the pet DP change was mostly due to Gaile's post at GWonline which seemed to imply that the testers were wrong and that pet DP was unchanged because they wouldn't hide such a big change from their customers.
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
They don't purposely do stealth updates unless there is a reason to.
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Originally Posted by Falrow
Also I would be cool for an after-the-fact update. "We changed this to this and forgot to mention here, so we are telling you now".
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RTSFirebat
Anet saying they made a mistake? Never
But yes your right, skill changes effect both PvE and of course importantly PvE as well, so its unprofessional for them to miss out any changes to skills in their patch notes.
But yes your right, skill changes effect both PvE and of course importantly PvE as well, so its unprofessional for them to miss out any changes to skills in their patch notes.
Falrow
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
Think this and all undocumented changes are a result of simple human error and mistakes do happen
But you right in the fact that mistakes shouldn't be made, but the fact is they do happen |
I also ask for the original date GC was changed to 3s. Anyone, anyone?
Edit: I think we've talked this to death between us two...
RTSFirebat
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Originally Posted by Falrow
I'm not asking for no mistakes, but that would be my pipe dream. What I am asking for is putting the the patch notes the changes that went undocumented in the past. Maybe have an 'almost un-documented' game updates section paralelle to the gameupdates page. Mistakes are inevitable. But confronting them afterwards isn't that hard.
Edit: I think we've talked this to death between us two... |
Falrow
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Originally Posted by fallot
Could you please give one reason why an update would need to remain undocumented ?
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Originally Posted by fallot
That's a pretty good idea.
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Falrow
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
A section on this site or GuildWiki would be helpful maybe?
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perfect
OMG stop this madness! This was a documented change!
http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/
July 13, Ranger Skill updates:
# Archer's Signet: no longer disables pet attack skills.
# Broad Head Arrow: reduced recharge time to 15 seconds.
# Determined Shot: now recharges pet attack skills if it misses.
# Equinox: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
# Famine: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
# Focused Shot: now disables pet attack skills when used.
# Greater Conflagration: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
# Lacerate: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
# Marauder's Shot: no longer disables pet attack skills.
# Oath Shot: increased recharge time to 25 seconds
The original poster listed update pages from May!
Everyone needs to relax, this wasnt a stealth update, next time read the GW.com site more thoroughly.
Case Closed.
http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/
July 13, Ranger Skill updates:
# Archer's Signet: no longer disables pet attack skills.
# Broad Head Arrow: reduced recharge time to 15 seconds.
# Determined Shot: now recharges pet attack skills if it misses.
# Equinox: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
# Famine: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
# Focused Shot: now disables pet attack skills when used.
# Greater Conflagration: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
# Lacerate: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
# Marauder's Shot: no longer disables pet attack skills.
# Oath Shot: increased recharge time to 25 seconds
The original poster listed update pages from May!
Everyone needs to relax, this wasnt a stealth update, next time read the GW.com site more thoroughly.
Case Closed.
RTSFirebat
OMG he's right 
That change is documented.
That change is documented.
richirich
i thought it was the casting time he was moaning about?
Rok
It is the casting time he was concerned with, which no one else cares about.
Lets say they forgot to add it to the notes on the update page, how are they going to remember when they have so much going on and other things to work on. They don't read everything on all the forums, they read what they want and ignore the rest of the moaning and complaints.
Maybe you should officially request (email them) that they waste their time going over every skill they changed since the games inception and report back on any updates they forgot.
Who cares, so they forgot to include it, everyone who cares knows about it and has adapted.. all 2 of them. Pull the stick out and live with Anets constant unperfectness like everyone else.
Lets say they forgot to add it to the notes on the update page, how are they going to remember when they have so much going on and other things to work on. They don't read everything on all the forums, they read what they want and ignore the rest of the moaning and complaints.
Maybe you should officially request (email them) that they waste their time going over every skill they changed since the games inception and report back on any updates they forgot.
Who cares, so they forgot to include it, everyone who cares knows about it and has adapted.. all 2 of them. Pull the stick out and live with Anets constant unperfectness like everyone else.
max gladius
im confused.... what was the topic about?? PET DP? cast time? reset time? wait, did they change the energy cost???
j/k
j/k
PsychoX
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Originally Posted by Unrealer
okay, not like it was a good to skill to begin with, and besides from that, no one ever uses it, why do you take notice in these stupid retarded stuffs?
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Falrow
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Originally Posted by Rok
It is the casting time he was concerned with, which no one else cares about.
Lets say they forgot to add it to the notes on the update page, how are they going to remember when they have so much going on and other things to work on. They don't read everything on all the forums, they read what they want and ignore the rest of the moaning and complaints. Maybe you should officially request (email them) that they waste their time going over every skill they changed since the games inception and report back on any updates they forgot. Who cares, so they forgot to include it, everyone who cares knows about it and has adapted.. all 2 of them. Pull the stick out and live with Anets constant unperfectness like everyone else. |
What I do care about is 2 things:
1. People not knowing about the update and continiously posting on forums about a change.
2. Fansite listing of skills being all out of wack. Yes some fansites will eventually correct it, with GuildWiki being first(and only) place to notice. Some other sites might eventually catch on because of either this thread or because they noticed. Then what do you have? Some listing right some wrong and people being confused between the two unless they check in game. Some people won't check and just assume their favorite site is right.
How to solve these two problems? Post the change in the Update News and an appology for the mistake. Problem solved.
BUT STILL, DOES NO ONE KNOW THE DATE WHEN THIS CHANGE WAS MADE!
Current best guess: The update on the 23rd of May. Could be before.
Kalki
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Originally Posted by Falrow
Maybe have an 'almost un-documented' game updates section paralelle to the gameupdates page.
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
A section on this site or GuildWiki would be helpful maybe?
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http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Special...h=undocumented
Kinda makes me think all this uproar about guildwiki users catching thousands of undocumented changes is false.
Nevertheless I would love to see an article regarding undocumented changes maintained on guildwiki and would probably check it monthly or weekly.
I still give an A+ and 99% score to ANet their beta testers and patch notes. Compared to WoW where you have outrageous undocumented changes in the one-patch-every-three-months system they have there, I think Anet is doing a great job.
Falrow
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Originally Posted by Kalki
Excellent ideas. I did a search for "undocumented" on guildwiki.org, and the results were (drum roll please) only 6 articles had the word undocumented in them... See for yourself.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Special...h=undocumented Kinda makes me think all this uproar about guildwiki users catching thousands of undocumented changes is false. Nevertheless I would love to see an article regarding undocumented changes maintained on guildwiki and would probably check it monthly or weekly. I still give an A+ and 99% score to ANet their beta testers and patch notes. Compared to WoW where you have outrageous undocumented changes in the one-patch-every-three-months system they have there, I think Anet is doing a great job. |
Either way it's something that can be solved in the retrospect. But pet DP is another perfect example of doing the Update News retroactively so that past undocumented changed can be posted on the main pages so everyone can see, it would remove confusion.
MSecorsky
With the change to warrior armor/shields/absorption runes can no one see a use now for Greater Conflag? Anti-warrior death toy.
Beat_Go_Stick
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Originally Posted by Falrow
As I've said before and said again, I DON'T CARE ABOUT RANGERS!!! FFS!
What I do care about is 2 things: 1. People not knowing about the update and continiously posting on forums about a change. 2. Fansite listing of skills being all out of wack. Yes some fansites will eventually correct it, with GuildWiki being first(and only) place to notice. Some other sites might eventually catch on because of either this thread or because they noticed. Then what do you have? Some listing right some wrong and people being confused between the two unless they check in game. Some people won't check and just assume their favorite site is right. How to solve these two problems? Post the change in the Update News and an appology for the mistake. Problem solved. BUT STILL, DOES NO ONE KNOW THE DATE WHEN THIS CHANGE WAS MADE! Current best guess: The update on the 23rd of May. Could be before. |
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Originally Posted by perfect
# Greater Conflagration: reduced recharge time to 45 seconds.
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Stupid topic.....