Problem: Playable roles in certain areas becoming limited.

I had an interesting experience yesterday. I was in Everwood(the Forever Trees mission, cant remember the name atm), and I was LFG. Nobody wanted me(assassin, natch), so i said ill hench it since there was no assassin love coming.
Well what do ya know, a monk asks for an invite to my now half filled hench group. Okaaaay...i invite the monk, dump the henchies, and start inviting whoever is LFG. Two rangers looking for a group together. A ritualist. Another monk. A necro, and an necro mm.

Guess what happened? We breezed through the mission. We killed the first wave of luxons so fast we thought it broke the mission. In the end, and I never would have guessed it, we got Masters on that mission. None of those stupid Tree Singers died! I think we were all sorta stunned.

Goes to show that starting your own group isnt all bad....and I hate leading too.

I think the prob = lvl20 = bye pve no more achievements
Basicly lol, so people are level 20 and then they want nicer armor or weps etc so they farm the hell out of pixels

The Eternal Grove?

Yeah, the enforcement of cookie cutter teams is, in my opinion, out of hand. There was an article in The Scribe about mesmers being the most underappreciated class. The only way I can get my mesmer into any group is fast cast healer, and even then it's very hard. Maybe get rid of the unhenchable missions so that mesmers, rangers, and assassins won't die out completely.

I don't think it's *always* like that. Rather than people thinking ONLY certain builds work, they are close to certain that a particular build WILL work. Why break a winning combination, so to speak. Some people don't care about variety or experimentation. They'll stick with what they know/like because it (usually) works.

Memsers are likely unappreciated because there aren't that many of them compared to other classes. If you never (or rarely) get to team up with a mesmer, or have never played one yourself, how can you learn to love 'em?

I've had this problem for ages myself, it seems only certain combinations of skills are easy and the rest just don't work well enough to count. This may be a teamwork game, but I think all characters could use a little more diversity in their skills.

I usually swim around the Suggestion Forums trying to think of new ways to improve the game or just "discuss" bad ideas, but the short and simple of it is that many skills and the gameplay overall needs to be geared toward fun first and balance second. After all, balance is only important because it keeps certain builds from ruining the game; but if one proper combination of skills is totally obsolete to another set of skills, is that balanced? And what good is balance if the gameplay isn't fun?

The other issue I have is the lack of tactical usefulness and actual results alot of skills have. Things like DoT Elementist skills get are not as effective as the maximum amount of damage they can do, only completely snared or morons get caught by the total effect of most DoT skills, yet the recast times and cost reflect the damage they yeild in total, not the actual figures they are good for.

And advancing teleports are sorely overpriced in recast time, what good is it to only surprise an enemy every 45 to 60 seconds but be able to escape every 15 with skills like return, an assassin is likely to take more damage then the target he drops on if he moves ahead of his team, so it doesn't help him advance ahead effectively, in PvE this is basicly a wasted skill slot, it doesn't allow you to move through walls or take down enemies, it is a much needed movement improvement to compensate for the received damage the assassin can't handle maneuvering on the front line, yet they are set at such long intervals.

I understand that some skills are simply limited to either PvE effectiveness or PvP effectiveness, but when they lack luster in both then those skills should be reconsidered. I woln't go into suggestions here, but I really think the "enjoyability" of many skills and class functions should be improved.

I'm already afraid Dervish is going to replace Elementist and Assassin, if they give him enough armor and protection skills to overcome more damage, and give him higher group and AoE damaging attacks because he is melee, than people are going to flock to the simple yet effective Spinning Scythe wielders. I doubt they will replace Elementist snaring and spiking superiority, but DoT skills may simply be obsolete.

I think recast time is the biggest upset on most underapprecaited skills, if they arn't as effective or usefull as other skills than they can at least be available more often. And I still think they need to improve the function on DoT skills, the least you should be able to do with an easily escaped effect is be able to place it exactly where you need it.

That sounds like me joining your team yesterday Not sure, though...

I have tried to get my prot.monk through Cantha and I have noticed it's even harder to get a team for protector monk than assassin... People want 2 healing monks for every team, even if 1 would be enough.

And as I've read through this whole thread, I think the idea of "Random PUG" made by computer was brilliant. I'd actually love to see if the team that comes up could do whatever mission there is. Most of the missions/quests are easy enough to do even if there'd be a disconnection for someone, and even if few people would leave... and some are soloable for almost any profession.

What else can be said?

Agree totally with you on this , and a more dinamic enviroment, maybe not in newb areas or early in game, but more and more in late game will "nerf" all those easy builds probably more than any nerf u can imagine

when i play my Ele, i am being forced to have Meteor Shower eveeeeeeery time. Yes im fed up of this, i want to try a water build in the Deep, to slow the mobs doen+make damage. but guess what? it would be as efficient as nuking and i have to get over this, or use my other characters, this is why we have multiple character slots.

when i play my ranger, i'm asked to barrage every time. ok fine ill barrage, but notyhing stops me to fill up the rest of skill slots as i wish. so stop whining, you have a minimum of 4 characters to try.

want to try a new build? try to make a guild group. this is what i do and its fun to try to figure out a PARTY builds that will go with the individual builds as well.

and yes, in some areas, it is getting very hard so once a relatively easy for a new person build is figured out, people taht want to complete the mission/quest/map will simply not risk to accept a build that might not even work and make the party fail.

as example, once i was leader in a ToPK party. i accepted a monk not asking his build. with first group we satrt dying and he was non stop whining about low energy. when we were fighting second group i was watching his skills and guess what? he was trapping. he had 4 traps and 2 healing skills equiped. rest were 2 diffrent resurection skills....... well, guess why we were dying? he was waisting his energy on traps! so that was about 30 minutes lost from my already enouth short playing time. why did we fail? because monk was runing a weird "not a cookie cutter" build

and yes, now i always ask for skill bar listing before we enter... unless its something i have no clue about like Rit or MM

For PvP, I understand. For PvE, I don't understand. Who cares if you fail a few times or miss masters, as long as you're having fun. The problem is that it's not just "some" who refuse to consider other builds, it's the majority, or at least it feels that way when you're in a town. Anyway, regardless of why, looking for an MM for Minister Cho's estate has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

I don't post here very often, though I do read quite a bit. However, I have to say that you all are providing some excellent ideas and feedback on this matter.

As I've played through factions, I've complained about how static things have become. I've actually neglected my assassin for some time, due to the attitudes being discussed here, but in order to get through the game I've had to start my own groups and stick to playing with my guildmates. I love my assassin, but it's unfortunate that the game has become the way it has in this regard and provided a less-than-inviting experience for people playing certain character types.

In a way, I think this issue is very important and should be addressed. It's becoming very apparent lately, as everyone's comments indicate.

The idea of randomization, in my opinion, is an outstanding one. Wouldn't this encourage a broader array of team member choices in general, increasing the fun factor considerably, rather leading things into the stagnant rut that they're now in? I mean, pick 3-5 professions, and give the monsters all a few skills in one or two random attributes for that profession.

I want platinum as much as the next player, but I feel that a 55 monk is too cheesy and I don't want to do repetitive farming. Why doesn't the game encourage a balanced group of effective characters and reward it accordingly?

That's certainly true. Togo kills off all the minions with his long-winded tutorializing.

how about actually making friends and doing stuff with them?

my guild would go to farm sorrow with 8 ppl party so no one was left out.. eles, mesmer you name it...

Yes there is - lack of an available population of players who would join said party.

Original poster is spot on with everything he said. Been a big problem for many many months now.

Only gonna keep getting worse as time goes by, I think.

i took my sin through factions and it was one of the hardest things i have done in guild wars but i had so much fun doing it. If i got kicked from a party so what i went with henchmen or found another party, its amazing the amount of people that complain about henchmen but dont realise that there better then most pug groups!

Best example was rasiu palace i tried with 3 pug groups and got the blame everytime when we failed. Told them fine i will do it with henchies and let them get on with it. I made it first time with henchies and even went back later to see how the pug group was doing, best laugh i had all day the leader who moaned had failed it 8 times in a row and didnt take kindly to me explaining i had done it first try with henchmen

Yes there are some places where it is harder then others to get into groups but it's not impossible and not a big problem imo. Theres always henchmen or better still making your own party, i make it a point not to kick anyone from my groups and allow mesmers and sins to join if they want. Yes we may not get it first time but i have managed to complete both guild wars with my current characters....

I usually end up with groups that just want to get it over with, no socializing. But when I get groups that chat and goof around, then I highly enjoy it.

I once did a TotPK run with my Orders build (pre OotV nerf), and we got to Scarred Earth (second part) and our monk got annoying because I didn't bring Blood Ritual (I do now), and left. Luckily I had 4 monk skills (it's an order build, you need self heals). Everyone else stayed and I acted as the healer. We died a good many times and probably took twice as long, but we made it and killed the Darkness'. I made a good friendship with sevral of the people that were in that party and we had a lot of fun.


The best thing is to have fun, something many people forget. This is a game, it is for entertainment.

Threads like this make me thank god for the guild I am in.Most of the time we group we all have enough characters to run a balanced (not cookie cutter) build.But sometimes we just all feel like playing certain characters that night so.....we roll with whatever people show up to the town in.

And ya know what,as long as we have a monk we usually complete everything we try.We think on our feet choose the best skills with the characters that are brought.

I mean sure we wipe sometimes,but so do those cookie cutters,difference is when we wipe with some crazy group set up we are laughing our ass off in Team Speak.Not calling each other noobs because our e-peens got hurt from.....omg wiping.

I think if there where more PvE guild adventures than there would be more Guilds geared toward helping eachother out in PvE, But because the function of a guild is to GvG, most guilds are built around the premise of finding PvP players and PvP. This game is pretty pick up and play, and the gameplay is very attention consuming, so sitting around and chatting with random people doesn't happen much, and people don't get to know and befriend others on a regular basis.

I have to say, not having something to do on a regular basis makes a game somewhat frustrating, expecially when your trying to make progress, but some Guild Exclusive PvE adventures and less active resting periods would probably allow people to enjoy their company better.

Parties would also be less demanding if all classes/characters had a larger diversity of skills in order to cover themselves and be less dependant, I know that reduces the dependancy in parties and makes the game less complicated, but it would make it more enjoyable or at least simpler.

I can understand Marias issue with her monk, if someone wants to be a trapper, they should use a class that is good at it, not a monk. People should be able to play a character the way they want, but when they are clearly using a deficient build it is unacceptable. But when you can't use your own classes skills, in an appropriate setup, well enough to compare, compeate or be accepted instead of some trick build or overly useful skill than that isn't balanced or fun. Sure some skills are great, but other skills should be just as good, they can't be the same, so if one skill is so useful that the other isn't reasonable, than that other skill should be improved, after all, it isn't balance if that other skill has no feasible means or skill combination available to match the other in effeciency.

Skills should be used appropriately, you can't complain when improper and poor use of skills is rejected and unwanted, but when proper and effective use of skills, or even a class in general, isn't acceptable to your average party, than something should be improved or changed.

Its because of the lack of design in monster mobs which in conclusion means seing the same builds played over and over.

It would be nice if they made certain builds more usefull or the need to come up with different builds to tackle certain places, Maybe adding a second profesion to enemies, would give better and more possibilites with mobs and how people would go about their builds.

Its just the sad reality that pve isnt as deep as pvp.

Thats the main reason I made a Monk.

So I could sit AFK and laugh in the Temple of Ages and get back at them for not taking my Necromancer.

lol, I'm gonna do that <3

Or force them to take me into the FoW for free as payback >=)

But this problem with forcing specific builds is really hurting the game in the long run. Think of newbies who just got to a certain area for the first time then join a team only to be asked to run a specific build. When confronted with "What is a MM" or "What is Echo Nuker", they get a swift boot.........

The Dragon Powers from Kuunavang may have been a starting point to get rid of this as each class gets a different dragon power........but I hope this keeps up in nightfall.


My monk normally can sway a team into taking a "Non-standard" member by threatening to leave, but it never always works =/

Assassins definitely have the hardest time getting into groups in my expereince.

I love mine but I would only want one in a group and there are a lot of bad ones out there, which given their vulnerability can make them a liability in the wrong hands.

My mesmer has not had any problems getting into groups in Cantha although you will always struggle if you try and get into a 6/8 group who are almost invariably looking for 2 monks.

And henchies are defiinitely better than many PUGs. Finished Factions with my Rt using henchies only, apart from the Eternal Grove mission - it is always a joy to see the party attacking called targets rather than everyone going off on their own little trip.

Try joining a large community based guild focues on PvE. This type of guild are normally laid back and willing to help with missions and quests no matter what the area. Its much easier than relying on a bunch of random strangers to help you complete a task.

I had a fantastic time the other day when i went to sorrow's furnace with 3 of my guildies. We each decided how best to adapt our character builds for 4- man furnace trips. I decided in the end to take 'none shall pass' because all the enemies kept running past and raping the others (spellcasters)

We actually did surprisingly well, until a priest of sorrows resurrected 2 dead bosses before we noticed him.

Personally I think the core problem is indeed the mentality of the people playing but, ANet could randomize more and make it more difficult.
Have you noticed the flaming of ANet that occurs when a favorite build is broken?

I have an ele (over 800K experience), an Assassin (nearly 400K experience), a mesmer (not sure but 20th level) (which I play with a group that kicks everything in PVE and probably could do well in PVP against most groups). The most standard build we have is a couple of tanks. And they aren't your standard farmer builds. I also have a Monk (nearly 300K experience), a Ranger and a Ritualist. I started a second set of accounts to get fighter, necro, another Ele (want to play around again at low level).

It is all about how you play the chars. I have had many good comments about my sin once people actually let me join their group (interrupt and some damage sets). I don't use the teleport. Monk has had many complements as has ele.

Agreed and their are many of them out there.

I have found that people are in general over cautious. One healer and one prot monk should let any group pretty much walk through, in fact I run a balanced monk most of the time and have no probs. Including energy management with another balanced or pure healing monk especially.

In fact, I am sometimes a bit bored even when only monk. If the group knows how agro works and the tank (yes, only need one really) knows what to do it is relatively easy on most missions.

I just got through going through a mission with one mm, my monk, a healer monk, one warrior, two eles and a ranger (and once three eles no ranger). Got masters all the way and I think maybe two or three times in four or five storyline missions had someone die and that was on the multi-boss encounters

I remember when no one wanted warriors.

Wait until some people figure out a good build set and strategies for the sin.

I do wish ANet had given the sin a smaller agro circle than any other class, thereby giving them better ability to pop the the softies and deal damage without agroing the next group.

BTW, my sin normally protects the softies from those that get by the warrior or helps the take out certain targetted enemies if will not cause additional agro.
My sin has also been the agro puller because carries bow in group that for some reason had no tank.

took me three days to find a group to do Thunderhead Keep mission. All I hear is "WE NEED MONKS!@$"

The Assassin is by far the most hated class in GW. Which is a shame, because it's the most fun to play, if you ask me.

most underappreciated by close minded people (I wonder if this expression exists, well, I mean the opposite of open minded) but no more hated or loved by some others.

Being patient, creating group, and selected people is the solution (that's what I did with my mesmer, and I finished the both parts with PuGs because it's boring to play with Hench, the elite missions, UW & FoW, get some usless PvE title like protector ...)

Many people in GW are maybe to bad players or maybe too lazy players to try to do something different, they need everything immediately and then keep on doing the same thing again and again (I saw this build works well, so there is no other build this build is the only one that can be use here).

Well if people prefer to run the same build all the time it's not my problem, but it's not the players I like to play with.

PS : it's always funny to see a warrior trying to kill a dolyack with mark of protection on him, shatter enchant own

Maybe this will teach people to run balanced builds.

Ironic eh? Me, as a battery necro, played, and won tombs first time, in a balanced group, formed by me, and a couple of PvPing guildies. People need to learn that balanced builds WORK! 2 monks, 1 interrupt ranger, 1 ele, 2 battery necros, and 2 warriors was what we went. When people start learning that balanced is the most versatile and effective build, this problem will be solved. If the mobs were random, people wouldn't be able to make a cookie cutter build, and thus need a versatile builds. This will make them go balanced!

_Zexion

The problem with Sorrow's Furnace specifically is the rewards for farming are much better than the rewards for questing. Unless you are going for a Skill Hunter title, the XP rewards are meaningless, so the only people doing the quests are people who are doing it for its own sake. People like that are out there - I'm one of them - but we are in the minority and spread out between all of the farmer-filled districts. I really wish they'd add something like the Amulet of the Mists for those who complete "The Final Assault", the last SF quest. Let it be tradable for any one SF green of your choice.

The key to playing under-appreciated professions is to make your own groups. Learn it. Live it. Love it. You enter a mission town as a mesmer, you're making the group. Period. Once you get used to it, it really isn't that bad.

When playing a prot monk, don't advertise it. Just make sure the other monk is a healer (95% of the time he will be) and you're all set. I always do this and never get a complaint.

Maybe there should be a Farming District where people can go to find farming groups, and separate districts for the people that are there to get quest / exploration pugs. That would be less confusing and frustrating I think.

ok-ok, people, lets not turn things inside out. This whole rant "zomg those noobs wouldnt take me because im open minded" is highly overrated. The open-mindness is highly overrated.
When I am looking for a group im far more conserned about idiots who advertise themselfves as having new cool builds, but in reality having not freakin clue to wth they doin, what enemies they will be facing, what is their role in the group, etc. Cookie cutter build are good because they are tested and they work. Non-cookie cutter builds are bad because there might be only 10% chance that they will perform better. And that is already given that person knows what he doing, which is rarely the case.

When I want to test build I do it with henchies or specifically ask someone to help me with it. When I join PUG I know exactly what my purpose is and how I am going to do it, as opposed to "I AM DOING DAMAGE!!!!" idiocy.

Learn the basic builds people. Just get over yourself and try it. See how much more efficient you are and only THEN try to THINK about something new. Most "open-minded" people simply skip the first step. They just assume that cookie-cutter builds are for noobs and they are soooo very different from everyone else... yeah right...

I am also upset that say eles are not accepted in SF groups, but I do know WHY. That got nothing to do with people being stupid. That got everything to do with eles utterly sucking in that area.
That is not general public's fault that curses necro is by far better damage dealer than elementalist. That is ANet's fault that there is by far more enchantment/caster hate in this game than needed, making ele viable tank only in few selected areas.

Cookie-cutter build bashing is overrated. PUG bashing is overrated. Get [email protected] over yourself. There is no problem with people. There is a problem with ingame ballance. There is a problem with you not understanding the reason and motivation behind things.

Yes there is a problem with people.

Hint: the only 2 kinda of PvE necros and SS and MM :P. If you say "No, I'm runnin" you'll be kicked before you finish explaining. This HAS happened to a friend's necro, and happens alot.

(European territory anyway o_O)

arenanet reeeeeead, think and do something