Jumping the Shark...?

As a wikipedia lover, I was surfing the endless link chains of Wikipedia, and eventually got to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumped_the_shark

I read the description, and pretty much immediately thought GW.

For the rest of you out there, do you think GW has "jumped the shark"? It's interesting to think about why you originally bought the game. I bought it cause it had awesome graphics (still unmatched imo) and a really fast, non-grind PvE gameplay. Nowadays, I abhor the wall-hugging, afk drinking, HA-grinding drag of the game, so personally, I"d think it jumped the shark quite a bit.

I'm not sure if that's necessarily a bad thing, but I can pretty confidently say, it's not the game I bought 12 months ago. I no longer get as much excitement and wonder from exploring pre-searing Ascalon or the Crystal Desert anymore, and it has turned into just another repetative title-seeking PvE/PvP grind.

What do you guys think? =P

Jumped the shark? Not at all!

The vision of the game is still well-alive. Of course it's not going to be the same game as 12 months ago, it has evolved, but that doesn't constitute labelling Guild Wars as "jumped the shark".

I don't think that GW has reached that point yet, I think that GW is entering a circling the drain phase, but it still has a chance to pull out.

With the release of Nightfall, GW is about to create problem, even with an increase in player base, will the players be able to support 3 or more campains? If not, will we tolerate a discontinuation, or overwrite, of a previous chapter? If the players won't tolerate the discontinuation, or overwrite, will they play anyway even with the thinned down player base.

The current stand alone model won't work forever.

Jumping the Shark generally refers to introducing "gimmicks" to keep interest alive in your product.

I believe that Guild Wars introduced diversity with adding the Ritualist and Assassin classes, and hopefully the Dervish and Paragon classes continue that diversity.

I'm worried that, at some point, the new classes and/or skills may become more gimmicky in nature (i.e. flashy, but doesn't add any real content), at which point Guild Wars will definitely be powered up on Water Skis.

Well said, Markaedw.

The potential GW player base, though it may not have peaked yet, is finite. Unlike something like Tetris, Guild Wars will never be able to expand the way it would need to in order to simultaneously support, say, 6 or 7 "standalone" games (and perhaps I am being generous here).

As it is now, it can be very difficult to find active players in many of Prophesy's smaller cities and outposts.

A potential solution? Perhaps if Anet would continue to mix a bit more new content around the maps of the older games, players would return to their old haunts to do quests or collect particular drops...

So, basically you're saying that you've played it for a year, and am becoming bored with it?

Imagine that.

"Jumping the shark" seems to refer more to a specific event rather than an ongoing process. If applied to Guild Wars, it would be the point where a vast number of players would lose faith in the game, quit and/or stop buying new chapters, but it would also imply that ANet tried to do something with Guild Wars that the player base did not support.

We've only had one "stirring" of jump-the-shark-like situations in Guild Wars with the release of Factions, and despite the mixed reception it's received the player base is still there, even if diminished by the "separate worlds" problem. Despite grievances against Factions that are frequently voiced on these forums - about the content of Factions, the length of the chapter, the shorter time between releases, the lack of UW/FoW/SF add-ons - most people are still playing, and still looking forward towards Nightfall.

I'd say that Nightfall's release is going to be a "make or break" moment for ANet. No one can predict what will happen once chapter 3 is released because we won't even know what's in it until next weekend when we get to preview the new professions, or the PvE preview weekend after that. If ANet tries to take Nightfall in a direction that the players won't like - for example, by showing no support for Factions classes in Nightfall or by introducing game mechanics that put too much strain on the players' understanding of what GW is - and if that leads to a mass exodus of players (rapid or gradual), you could say ANet has "jumped the shark." But as things stand right now, I'd say they haven't, and I hope they don't.

As a follow-up to my previous post, I was thinking that Nightfall might present an excellent opportunity to introduce new content into the old maps as I had described.

We already have a precedent for chaos portals appearing in limited areas in Tyria and Cantha...

What if these portals could be found in dozens of pre-determined places on each continent (each spewing high-level mobs of course)? The outposts nearest to these places would probably recieve nice traffic boosts.

Obviously they would only appear to characters that had the appropriate quests in their log, much like the Titan quests.

I dunno.. im still happy playing Tyria.. not sure how Ill feel once I get bored of that.. mayhap Diablo 3 will be out by then

are you saying that because titles add a long term goal that the game is straying from its simple roots.... I dont really think so, none of that stuff is neccecary and I have yet to see title discrimination outside of hero's ascent. sure its nice, but its purely cosmetic, but what is 15k armor then? its been in the game for a long time. While factions has brought several new things to the game the core remains the same. and the problems I have with the game stem more from the ability to form confident groups or do what I want at any given time rather than anything with the game itself...

Hehe, having played the game for just over 10 months, and onlt forked out cash on 2 occasions, i would say it has a pretty good run. For me its starting to get repetitive, but i dont think the game has jumped the shark like the infamous Fonz. Its not quite that bad yet

The "make or break" moment is very true. It's kind of hard to make a "jump the shark" vote (for myself, anyway). I'm definitely going to sneak a peek at the two new professions, but the make or break moment for me wil be the PvE weekend (if they have one), plus all I can find on the PvE content for Nightfalls.
I read in one thread here that GW's makers were surprised that those people who played PvE didn't jump immediatley into PvP. That might have been their "jump the shark" moment in thought. I'd like to see them recover from that....

Jumping-the-shark refers to the moment in Happy Days when Fonzie jumped over a shark tank in waterskis. It signified a turning point in the show that convinced critics and viewers that the show had fundamentally and permanently strayed from its original premise "The show was going down hill".

The first time that Guild Wars strayed from its original premise was with the introduction of "green items" to the game.

Not the Fonz but cool pic.

Guild wars has in no way come even close to its "Jump the Shark" moment. I wouldn't even predict it happening until like Chapter 5, if then. This game has soooooo much potential it not even funny. For me, the more chapters, the better. Hey, at least we get new content and places to explore every 6 months. Most MMO's have to wait a year or longer before anything remotely new is introduced. Look at WoW. Its been out over a year and they are only getting their first expansion this coming fall!

Go Go Guild Wars!!

And yet they have over 5 million subscribers and don't appear to be in any immediate danger of losing player base -- so I don't think it is hurting them.

WoW isn't my cup of tea, but they must be doing something right.

Haha Fonzie jumping the shark... I love that episode cause it's so embarrasing and corny. What a great phrase and metaphor.

GW hasn't jumped the shark yet, and doesn't look it will any time soon. They've been coming out with new ideas not gimmicks, and some people like them and some people don't. I think a potential "jump the shark" moment for GW would be if the level cap were raised without caution, and max damage on weapons were increased making every single current weapon useless. Maybe they could raise the level cap for future areas only, but seeing level 30's going through Tyria and Cantha would be cheesy, and would degrade my accomplishments. To me that's when a game turns into a grind, and that's what Anet has promised GW won't become from the start.

I think most modern TV sitcoms jump the shark, when all the romance and drama becomes cheesy. For friends it was the whole Ross and Rachel romance fiasco. For the 70's show it was when Jackie and Hyde got together.

I don't think it's happened yet. And, to be honest, I doubt GW will be "jumping the shark" anytime soon. The game retains a lot of charm, replayability, and the original premise remains the same. Factions got a lot of mixed reviews, and Anet itself has taken some shots about design and marketing decisions, but these will die off in time.

Of course they lose subscribers, and they gain new ones. There is no reason to suspect the average WoW player plays longer than the average GW player.

Yes, WoW's done something right, that much is clear, and what it's specifically done is conclusively prove that players are insensitive to cost.

Right - as I said, they aren't losing playerbase. The actualy people may change, but the numbers are going up.

Interesting that you should say that. In a discussion about MMOs on slashdot the other day, someone suggested that GW's success hinges mostly on the fact that it *isn't* WoW and doesn't have its financial model. The went on to say that between WoW and GW, other MMO's are really feeling the squeeze -- at least in America. The implication was that if you are the type to cough up $15 a month for a game, you are probably going to have (at least one) WoW account, and if you aren't you are more likely to end up in GW.

Look at NCSoft's newest game, AutoAssault -- it is virtually stillborn. Supposedly they have had to consolidate all of the US servers into Korea since hardly anyone here was playing.

Then again, people have been saying that the MMO market is limited and reached its max growth for a few years now, but it still has been slowly growing.

They give people what alot of people want. They get e-peen for grinding and in WoW it is easy to show off. In guild wars i could care less if you had fow armor but having uber loot in wow makes you uber just because of the stats.

I'm not sure it's the MMO market that's limited but the subscription market...

With games you pay for only once, you could make a collection of them. All you need to feel you got your money's worth is to have played it for longer than a certain amount and enjoyed the experience. Purchasing other games may reduce the time you spend on it, but once you've finished with one game, there's no reason not to move to another - and you can always come back to the first game, assuming it still works with your computer and you've archived any save files you may need.

With subscription games, there is the feeling you have to justify your subscription - there are only so many hours in the day, and every additional subscription game you buy increases the price you pay without giving you more hours of entertainment (or probably not giving you many more, anyway), and the impression I have is that if you come back after lapsing your subscription, your characters will be gone.

Essentially, the basic economics are the same - in each case you're essentially paying for 'packets' of hours, but in the case of the subscription game the assumption is that those hours will be spent over a specific length of time, while for nonsubscription games that packet can be spent at any time. Most subscription gamers are going to be people who can devote themselves to one game - and these people are probably most likely to get the one perceived to be the best (currently WoW) with the rest essentially getting the ones that fall through the proverbial cracks. If and when such players do need to play something else as a break every so often, it's probably much more likely to be an offline game that they can play at their leisure than another subscription game. People who prefer more of a variety are probably going to be more inclined to games that have outright purchases rather than subscriptions.

Essentially, my main point is the one halfway through the paragraph above - Few people are going to pay for multiple subscriptions at the same time, so only the best out of them, and maybe one or two of its strongest competitors, is going to have any real success. It's not the market for MMOs that is being squeezed - other MMOs with similar business strategies to GW would probably do quite well if they are of sufficient quantity - it's the market for subscription games, which at the moment coincides almost exactly with the MMO market.

Basically, if you make a game without a subscription, all you're asking people to do is accept that your game is worth your asking price - you're not asking them to give up anything else, so as long as it's good enough, people will buy it without going to lengths to compare it to the competition. If you introduce a subscription game, you're essentially asking people to replace whatever subscription game they're already playing to switch to yours - so to get anywhere you don't just need to be good, you need to persuade the public that you're the best.

I played WOW for 2 months and quit to play other games including Guild Wars. I bought a 1 month pay card at game stop to play WOW again and was surprised to see my account was still available with all my characters and item. This was after a full 2 years of not playing WOW.

~nevermind~

Wasnt a request for level increases but a response to the OP's wondering what our initial hopes for the game were. People are too quick to rally against even its mention, so its best simply not to imho.

Level increases... fugeddaboutit. THAT would be a 'jump the shark' moment that would destroy the game.

i think its only getting better, and accomodating more interest groups.

for example pvp is SOOO much better now... and there is enough pve to keep me playing for another year even without an expansion.

sorry for the double post, but I think this is a very valid point.

people think that making more levels would give them more to do... they dont understand that this lvl 20 will never change- its the foundation of the game.

level 1-15= noob character- the only part of the game that resembles a grind.

level 16-19= I consider it a real character, good enough for most pve settings (assumes you have max armor- i do by this point)

level 20= Congrats you can play for real- its about your skill now, so if you cant hang, then you need to change something about yourself.

im in exactly the same boat as duanstar
everyone is now rich and paying ppl to run quests and run to places instead of grp fighting your way

bring back FA farming :P

Now this weekend may be jumping the shark!

Did anyone else think of the Fonz when they read this?

well that is where the saying originated

How exactly? What just because you have *insert name of uber rare item* and now more people are going to have it it is "jumping the shark"? All it's doing is

1. Trying to show people like me that chests can have good items and are worth opening, and

2. Deflate the market by lowering prices so this doesn't become another game where n00bs are too poor to afford anything rare unless they are extremely lucky

I don't see anything wrong with that.

I really don't see GW going anywhere close to "jumping the shark." Factions was an improvement to prophecies, these events are giving players things to do while waiting for nightfall, there is more and more things to do with each chapter, GW is still as fun as it was at first, there is no attempts by Arena Net to raise the lvl cap, gaile has mentioned some things that she said should greatly improve the trade system and said they should be coming "soon", and the list of good things that are being added/improved goes on and on...

let's hope they pull a slingshot on the way out, meaning, doing REALLY well on the upcomming chapters

so? What does it matter when the quality of it is so crappy like factions?

All Guild Wars proves is that a game you rush and only have in development is not going to be good.

This is why Blizzard is one of the most beloved companies in the world.

Because they don't rush their products to make a deadline, but take their time. Focusing on quality instead of qurantine.

Then look at factions... Anet can't push buggy halfbad expansions for the same retail price as the original on us...


The original GW was an awesome game. You know why? Because it was in development for over 5 years! Good games takes time in this day and age.

Nightfall will be similiar to factions... crappy story... little development time... more of the same same with new skins.

There won't be anything new-mechanic wise introduced like flying mounts or time travel like in the WoW expansion, which seems to be simply contain massive amounts of high quality content.


If Anet had no dropped the ball everyone would have liked factions better. But no... They choose not to learn from their mistakes from GW1. And this is where we are. Tons and tons of people losing faith in the game. Beginning to get really hard to find people to play with on smaller missions. Population already over scatted. Many have quit. Game lost focus from its non grinding and non farming appeal.

GW is not in the charts anymore and I hardly see it in stores.


But guess what? WoW apparently is still nr 1 in every single region all over the world, and its almost 2 years since that game came out... It's obvious that even though it has a monthly fee, they(blizz) are doing something right that everyone else does wrong.

guild wars is definitely not "jumping the shark". after prophecies release, when the first wave of excitement had worn off, there were also people arguing that there was not enough content to keep people interested in the game, nothing left to do, no good ideas for further developments, that the a-net team could never ever come up with exciting new content for both pve and pvpers and so on and on.

but just look where guild wars is now, 1 year later. players are still growing in numbers, guild wars is more popular than anyone could ever have imagined. guild wars still has and will have in the future a crazy success.

i mean, when a-net was founded years ago the people who started that company had a very clear idea of what they were doing and where they were going. you just don't start a company like that, without an idea of what you will be doing in 2 years time. they are more aware than we are that they can not produce an infite number of chapters that do not offer new things and that are just copies of the chapters before. no one would ever invest huge sums in a company and the development of a new game if that company doesn't even know what it will be doing in 2 years, and where it wants to go in the future.

of course there will always be things you cannot plan. you have to improvise and make the best out of it. but i am 100% sure they know what they are doing and will not release mere copies of previous chapters.

i was alienated when i first played factions. it was guildwars, and yet, it was something completely different. the whole idea behind the game, how it was build had changed. but the more i sticked with it, the more i liked it. now i can even say that there are some areas over in cantha i prefer to some areas in tyria.

guild wars is definitely not dead. it wasn't 1 year ago when there were people complaining about this and that and it isn't jumping the shark now either. guild wars is here to stay and we will see a lot of exciting new content, no doubt about that.

I'd say the only thing GW needs right now is a lot of end-game content and new PvP/competitive forms.

No new classes (for a while).
No 1-20lvl story.

Just sick end-game maps and maybe imbal but pve restricted new items. Dungeons, in fact. Raise parties to 16 for some end-game (similar to raids but not zerg size).

"Jumping the shark" is still not there but I find it harder nowdays to form a PUG then before....NOT including endgame content (which is redicioulusly sparse considering the experience of playerbase).

I don't think GW needs new content, but rather new content (and stuff) inside existing ones and I think Factions only proved that.

I totally agree with this statement. There is no reason new content couldn't be made for existing continents and I think it really is necessary for Anet to think along these lines for their next 'stand alone'.

Btw, I think Factions was pretty good overall although it didn't warrant its full game price - it should have been priced as an expansion pack. Nightfall should be priced as an expansion pack too if it is as short as Factions was.

Well put lawnmower, i think you really just bulleyesed it there.

No, I didn't anyway, but I did think from the title of the thread... that this was about the game me and my wife play when the kids are asleep.

I am still not a fan of the level 20 cap, because it feels like there is no more progression, therefore there is no more reason to play. I quit after my first character hit level 20 in Kryta over a year ago.

I love Baldur's Gate, it's my favourite game, but I go out of my way to not level up too fast in it. After you've hit max level it feels like there is no more point in playing because I can then just import that character into Baldur's Gate 2 and they can continue to progress in levels, without having to actually beat the first game.

The introduction of titles gave me something to progress towards, which is why I started playing again and haven't stopped. Without those, I'd never have started playing again.

I was hoping that Factions, and other subsequent releases, would be expansions, adding onto the end of the game and progressing it further for those who have beaten Prophecies. Raising the level cap maybe 5 levels and adding harder missions and quests to do, with better armor and items. I don't like the idea that you can basically plateau not even half way through the game (or right at the start in Factions). After that, you either start a new character, or farm forever and ever. I don't PvP, so that is out.

Just my thoughts on things.

If this is what you are looking for, go play WoW. Guild Wars is much more about skill than hours invested. The level cap (in PvE. at least) was specifically put there in the first place so that all the post-ascension missions would force players to play well to finally beat the game. Oh, and changing the level cap would completely screw the balance of PvP.