Elitism or Skill vs. Time

Elitism seems to be a problem that everyone has with GW( and I'll assume its the same in other games) but nobody seems to say how to fix it, except to harp at the other side of the fence. So heres why I think Elitism is so obvious in Guild Wars.

1. The game is relatively new, so there isn't enough land to spread out all the people on. Therefore we see them more often(the "elitism jerks")

But that isn't a problem without these two unique features of Guild Wars.

2. Level cap at 20.
3. You can only carry 8 skills at a time.

The reason I think these two are the cause (the cause caused by the game itself, not players[thats another story entirely]) is that the skill cap causes people to focus on the skills you carry. In other games a level 50 can look at a level 20 and say "this person hasn't played as much as me, therefore I can A)help him out or B)not party with him". Because lvl 20 can be reached so quickly, people instead examine your skills to see how 'experienced' you are. People become 'experts' on areas by farming them repeatedly, and therefore certain skill standards are upkept by portions of the GW community for certain missions. This is where we can the 'elite jerks' that yell at or kick you because they don't like your skill selection.

*Note:Kicking excludes when you ask for a specific role to be filled, and they come with skills not able to fit that role. I.E., a smite monk claiming to be a healer to get in a group. On the other hand, kicking someone for carrying a skill you disapprove of is wrong. If I bring healing breeze, its probably for a reason. If you think that I'm wrong don't yell or kick me. Just ask why I bring it and make a suggestion for a better skill.

In PvP there is a certain compensation for this. Because you can jump in at level 20 and start fighting, there is less skill vs. time involved. Yes (to be good at it) you have to practice and/or read up on builds. But a couple weeks is better than a couple months of leveling up to 50 or 60. Thats the upside to the level cap and skill carry cap. The downside is that some people will be jerks because of the build you use. The same problem I put in the paragraph above.

In PvE ( I'm being more in depth here because I play it more) the same can happen with the high end missions. Due to the limited number of skills you can bring ( and here comes the point) the Community chooses to define character classes by specific rigid roles. If you're not a healer or a 55, then switch to one. If you're a mesmer in a mission where people don't think they 'need' a mesmer, its gonna be tough.
Each class has some tough situation in which they flourish. Warriors are meant for the front line, Monks have the most healing powers, Eles can nuke, etc...
But should we discriminate against non-55 smiters? Should necros be told to mm when they don't wish to? I could go on with examples, but I think you can see where I'm going. If it weren't for the focus on the limited skill bar we wouldn't define characters in this manner.

My Problem? I don't know how to fix this. There will always be people who think they know better because they use some special build to beat this mission 50 times, or obviously played longer/better cause you're such a noob... Yes, you can ignore people and not group with them if they're elitists who think you're 'noob' to play a smite monk or mesmer. But part of playing an online game is the community. If I want to play PvP, should I have to sit for hours attempting to get into a group because I don't have rank? If I want to go Smite the Army of Darkness in UW, should I be told to be a healer or leave? Yes I know thats what guilds are for. But what about the people who have trouble finding that perfect guild? Sometimes not all your guild members are online, or don't want to do that particular mission. There could be a million reasons why a guild couldn't help. Guilds are part of the solution. But I'm trying to get at the root of the problem, elitism itself.

We can't destroy the level limit. Then the problem would simply shift to whatever the new top level was. And the cycle would begin again.

We can't allow the attribute or skill switching to change drastically, because (not only would it destroy the uniqueness of GW)then a healer could walk into a mission, and halfway through switch to damage dealing. It would unbalance everything if each character strayed too much from their roles. Even worse, smiters might be stuck as smiters, and would be forever overlooked because of their inability to heal as effectively as a dedicated healer.
Perhaps we can broaden the skill selection, class selection, or what specific classes can do. I've made other posts about mesmers needing a bit of help in the aoe area, and monks needing more things to smite. But what does the whole game need to fix the attitude that one build/class/etc is better than another?

So its up to us, the GW community, to do something. We have to find a way that we can help everyone play(no more overlooked class/manner of playing class), to help silence the jerks which rampage through our happy gaming experience. Everybody should be able to have fun and play the way they want to play. But what are the ways to broaden that gaming experience?To destroy elitism without destroying the challenge of the game, or anyone's particular playing style?
So please post any comments on what could be done. And please no harping at each other about pvp/pve being worse than the other or the cause of this problem. Because that attitude is the point of this post.

/edit I realize that these things (elitism) occur outside the game, and that people don't exactly leave them at the door. We can't do much about name-calling except to chastise or ignore them. But I'm asking for ways to get around elitism. A way to bypass groups that want nothing but tightly controlled cookie cutter builds, without having to wait an hour for enough people willing to join you,etc.

people just want to have fun. mainly in the pve since. elite just reckthe game and fun for everyone.

I mainly see elitist jerks in towns bragging about there weapons or there armor and calling people noobs.

While in a mission with a PuG I never really pay much attention to what skills other people are bringing. I worry about what im bringing or what build im going to run. If im on my necro I can easily change to what build the team needs MM/SS/Whatever.

The only times ive really said anything is when at the beginning of a mission some monk puts mending on me >< ...Take that crap off and save your energy dont waste a pip of regen for me just toss a heal my way if I need it.

I will help someone out if they ask. But mostly all I see nowawdays is Can someone give me 1k Can someone give me free Mats? Can someone run me to xx for free?

I am level 99 and 20 skills, I look at you and your a noob. Level and 8 skills the problem, I think not. Let me say the famous WoW quote " go play WoW and grind for level 60".

Sorry about the length of the question, as I was attempting to show my train of thought and throw solutions I didn't think would work out the window automatically.
To respond to fiery, I think you missed the point. This is where I was going with this: Level cap low means more focus on skills(and more concentrated elitism because less levels), 8 skills means more focus on what skills you bring(i.e. builds), which in turn means elitism because your build is 'noobish'. But that is simply the most obvious example of elitism.
I also implicitly stated that expanding the level cap was not the problem. It just delays a solution and introduces more grind.

Im pretty sure that quote should be reworded, its not grinding for it, its more like having no life with it, at least guildwars soem people think being lvl 20 is an achievement that took them 30 hours or less

The problem is NOT caused by the lvl cap or the fact we can only take 8 skills. Its MUCH worse in wow where the level cap is 60 or eve where there is'nt one.

Most of the eliteism crap is in PVP.

The fact that in SOME missions certain builds and team set ups work better than others is NOT the players fault. Like I said in another post if you want to make an all mesmer or sin team go right ahead no one is going to stop you. But don't expect the VAST majority of people to invite you to thier 5 man SF or 12man Warren teams, if your NOT playing a build thats needed.

There is elitism in PvP however that is in compensation to the amount of noobs in pvp(I do not mean unranked people) The fact is that some people roll up pre mades and think they are all set or they are simply to stupid to comprehend that when i say GLF Esurge mesmer, that means u better have the basic skills for an esurger, if u have a suggestion voice it ill consider it weigh it out and most ppl will let you try it.

I gather spike that you dont pvp or if u have it has been in RA or AB

I know its not the players fault, thats why I suggested changes to the game itself. Even if I wish to make, say, an all-smite team. Do you realize how difficult it is to find another smiting monk?I'm not talking 55's here, just a bunch of regular smiters to make a full team. It's nigh impossible. These forums were the first time I've even seen evidence that other smiters existed.

And while I agree that people shouldn't expect to be invited into a group if they don't fill a role, but do you realize the number of times I have explicitly advertised myself as a smiter, and still been asked to switch to healer as soon as someone invited me? I'm asking for ways to change the part of the game that makes people think that way. I've enjoyed playing healer on some teams in TopK, but that doesn't mean I want to do nothing but heal.I can't make people change the way they play, some people just love bashing their problems away. I enjoy playing sneakily and avoiding mobs(i'm a monk, and I've learned what I can't handle).
How can we fix elitism without forcing people to stop using team builds or changing their play styles?

The ability to create a Lvl 20 character has great uses, and helps the whole skill vs. time appeal of pvp. But it also allows a lot of people into a limited number of arenas, therefore increasing the elitist to non-elitist ratio, to put it politely.

Once again PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A PVE PVP FIGHT. Elitism may be more obvious in PvP because of the importance of particular builds, but it is pervasive throughout the entire game. Do you not realize how much flak smite monks, mesmers, and assassins recieve in Pve?

Cador I don't pvp any more BECAUSE of the elistism in PVP. How are people EVER going to learn to pvp better if no one helps them and all they get is insults when they are'nt a perfect pvper form day 1.

Sil ander I don't think we can fix elitism, its just part of some peoples nature.

Monks are in such short supply in most places, people will invite any they see and then ask what they are after and if they can change if thier not whats wanted. Its been so bad at times. My e/mo has been asked to monk.

In my humble opinion, it is not the game that is at fault. Nor is it a certain community. It's a huge problem of society and what we're experiencing in the game is nothing more but just the tip of the ice.
People are taught, from the moment they are born, that the most important thing in life is to be better than someone else. And they're trained in this mentality by such innocent things as Sport, Games and their toys. Everywhere they go the world offers them one simple clear and clean message "Be strong, or die".
Many young people strive to be better than others, simply because society tells them to. But as there can only be one strongest being there are all of a sudden quite a lot of social "losers". People that are simply not strong enough to be the best. The people which are stronger punish them for being weak, mentally, physically in every perverted way the human mind ever has thought of. Mankind simply is trained to feel the urge to prove themselves superior to other humans ever since its accidential creation.

Now add into the mix that the Internet is something new. Sort of like another dimension one that is without laws, without punishment, without paying for the consequences. And it is anonymous. It's a fricking wasteland straight out of one of those Post Nuclear Science Fiction Novels. Rule of Strength. Harassment, sexuality, violence, anger, lust for power all the suppressed feelings of a young being will now surface to adapt to the hostile wasteland.

People love the Wasteland, the internet is. It gives them the opportunity to wreak havoc whenever they feel like, they can vent their aggressions, they can annoy others and most important of them all... they can claim to be a superior human being without even having to provide proof.
So basically, the harsher the environment is. The more easy it is to put oneself above others, the more elitism will you have in a game. Nothing we can do about it, it's simply society. And it's a simply "suck it up or die" thing. Mankind likes it this way.
My point is proven by the fact that you will see a lot more elitism in Scenarios that incude some kind of semi pro-gaming. Competition. That's why you basically see the following sentence in many of the threads on GWGuru "PVE-Players all suck. PVP-Players are superior human beings, more intelligent, more skilled, more social, more powerful bla bla bla yadda yadda yadda". It's quite rare that you see it the other way around. It's no ones fault though, it's still education reacting to a competitive environment with the unresistable urge to place oneself above someone else.

I've seen warriors better than me using 1.5k droks armour, i'll take skill over elitism any day :|

I don't know where people are getting the concept' skill' from in GW because its your 'skills' that are important moreso than 'skill'. Build Wars ftw.

Back on topic. Whatever you do and wherever you go in life there is some sort of Elitism. Take high school for example: The cheerleaders and 'jocks' are the elitists and the smart kids and musicians are the 'noobs'. No part of this game insights elitism... its part of human nature to yearn for superiority over others.

Disclaimer: I do not condone irrational/unecessary elitist behaviours which offend or disrupt others. ^

I have mixed feelings about topics like this. Yes, elitism can be annoying, both PvE and PvP, but everyone has the right to decide who he wants to play with or not. No one is entitled to just join any group he wants. I know, it can take some effort to find people that share a more relaxed outlook on the game, but they're out there.

Having said that, I do think the game could be more accomodating to break the 'my way or the highway' mindset. PvE could do with a bit more randomization. Areas where spawns aren't exactly the same every visit would go a long way toward breaking the cookie-cutter mold.

I don't think that there is any elitism of the sort you describe at all in TA or GvG, or storyline pve. HA and high end pve is extremely closed minded, but considering their goals they have reason to be.

For TA, there's an awareness of those particular builds that really are inferior, that people have a tendency to play them anyways (i.e. mending wamos), and those will generally be frowned upon, but even in PUGs as long as you list your skills and explain how you plan to contribute to the team with them, people are generally understanding. Sometimes I've even seen whole teams reroll to make builds to complement "experimental" players, just because they want to see if it works.

As far as GvG goes, there's so much variation there that it's obviously not a set in its way format. Alot of guilds experiment alot in scrims, and if it works, they run it, regardless of whether the individual characters suit particular cookie cutter formats.

HA, the goal for alot of players is just fame farming, and farming is grueling, so they're only going to run what they know will require as little effort as possible, will win SOME of the time, and will have players available to suit the particular roles. If you're in a good guild, obviously this is not the case, but for PUGs it often is.

High end PVE is similar to HA, in that the goals are very specific, people want to get through as fast as possible to get their loot, and they want to run cookie cutters that everyone will know. If there's planning involved, it will only slow their farming.

What you see is not elitism, it's just people with narrow in game goals looking out for themselves.

The only thing that really annoys me about elitism is the unwillingness to try new things. I can understand why people dont want to have to do Hells Precipise(sp) three times, it wastes everyones time.. while a cookie-cutter build could win it easily :/.

Even in GUILDS people are very unwilling to try new things, not because it will hurt the rating or whatever of the guild, but because, if it doesnt work, you just wasted everyones time. Atm Im trying to get my guild to try a Sin spike i thought of.. but i cant find 15 willing people for a scrim :/

Blah, i banter..

Ok, I wrote some majorly huge essay then deleted it .... 6 times in a row.

I'm going to keep it short.

1. This problem did not exist (at such a huge level) among clans (or players) in the early days of clans.
2. This problem started occurring EVERYWHERE ever since education, worldwide, was getting modernised.
3. I've researched this and came to the conclusion that newgens (new generation of players who are aged 22 or less on this day) have had absolutley zero education in school. They learned nothing. Or wait...
4. They learned how NOT to do things. Individualisation, pride, sloth, gluttony, it's all in there. These people are incapable of cooperating with anything.
5. This affects the aged 22+ humans who are overwhelmed by the amount of stupid people in democratic countries where problems are often handled "democratically" as in, the morons who are in the majority, will win (not talking about usa or only usa, i'm global here) (I'm not against democracy, I'm only against it in small groups where a 2 vs 1 equals in the 1 killing the 2 because they're assholes)

Fixes:
1. Revert to "oldschool" education.
2. Introduce a single or up to three years forced armyduty.
3. Introduce uniforms EVERYWHERE (I mean, jobs, school, those things, or at least dresscodes)


Why does that work?
Explaining that would require me to keep typing for a few days but I've done enough research to be 9384835983757735% sure that I am correct.

Problem?
It is dangerous to be right when everyone else is wrong ='(

That sounds like too much work.

I just combat the problem by being open to various styles of play in PVE (sorry, I don't play much PVP outside of ABs). I've led PUGs where there would multiple assassins, 2 Ritualists and only healing monk, multiple mesmers, etc. I don't force any group I form to fit any mold by profession unless I know a mission or a quest demands it.

But we're talking about attitudes and frankly I can't do much for other people's attitudes. But as I always say, a good player is better than a common build.

do you mind if i quote this? like.. in my signature.

EDIT: grr, RAWR @ disabled siggys.

Not a bad idea.

Woot! Unluckily, I disagree with this being solved by anything short.

There were plenty of clans in the early days that were rude to newer members and who were quite verbally "competitive". Additionally, there has always been an "elite" crowd across the internet. I also remember in sports since I was a wee lad that there always somebody talking smack... nothing new in the competitive world there.

The education system... or at least the curriculums have been being consistently and constantly modernized since basically the Renaissance. I'm a bit confused, are you pointing to the fact that schools no longer teach morality like you would want? Glad you were able to lump all of the blame for basically every societal problem firmly into faults in the education system.

Great, now that we have a name for them, let's discriminate against them. You are shrink wrapping every one less than 22 years old into a cookie cutter mold of ignorant oxygen consumers. I think that is bigoted and disciminatory, no different than racism or sexism.

Well, if they learned not be vain and prideful, full of sloth, and smitten with gluttony; that doesn't seem to be too bad. But, if you are implying that it is a generation that is laden with gluttonous, slothful, vain people I'm afraid that you will find yourself sadly mistaken. I'm not about to say that there are not many examples of people like this in every post WWII generation, but they do exist across the span of generations.

Ummmm... Wow, I know that you have done tons of research on this... This moronic majority is actually an average age of between 37-61 years old. There is a slight spike in the voting ages between 21-27 since the year 2000 but, it is still only a small percentage of the actual voting population.

1. I'm not sure what "oldschool" education is, but if you are referring to children receiving beatings by school officials (US), sexual harassment and molestation (very global), and other failed aspects of the education systems around the world and having the children gaining a higher morale imperative somehow, I find myself shaking my head and dismissing it.
2. I have never been against military service... but, a reinstitution of the Draft in the United States, and most other democracies seems to be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. Nowhere does any evidence actually support that military service lowers the service members' chances of committing violent crimes. I do think that the self-discipline taught by the basic training or "boot camp" is excellent and rewarding, but I cannot say that this is a fix for the problems that you have cited to being so prevalent. Additionally, my spinal cord was damaged in a sports injury in high school, according to the United States Navy, they won't even let me captain a desk. I am not eligible for the Draft nor being commissioned nor enlisted. Would I be stripped of my citizenship for this health condition?
3. I believe that many jobs have a dress code. I work in a professional environment that has a standing policy of ties and suits. McDonald's has a uniform, Microsoft has dress codes, Wal-Mart has dress codes. Schools have dress codes as well. I don't have any issue with uniforms in school, but I do have a problem with that for general living. Imagine if everyone was required to where the same clothing... kinda odd in my mind. I think if we'd all be issued red armbands, we'd be in the world you're talking about.

I do think that this was tried once before with the young men and women... I believe that the name of this organization was called the "Hitler Youth."

I'm curious as to why does that work. Humor me and put a bit more statistical and empirical information here.

You're asking a rhetorical question. Driving above the posted speed limit is illegal... but I live outside Chicago. The average speed on the highways is approximately 75-80 miles per hour. The speed limit is 65 miles per hour. It is far more dangerous to be going the 65 miles per hour and impeding than it is the 75 miles per hour in that traffic.

Anyways, back to the original poster... some of the problems you associate with elitism have more to do with efficiency than with elitism. I have a limited amount of time to play Guild Wars during the week. A smiting monk, though viable is not as valuable to me in most situations as a healing monk. I normally group with a tank or two to hold aggro and deal some damage, a monk or two to maintain my digital life as I do my assigned task, and three or four damage dealers. The skill selection goes along with this, in a low level non-elite skill area, I don't expect the group to be laden with the best elite skills. But in the "elite" areas of the game, I do expect the party and their skill sets to be within a certain criteria of builds. If I ask for an elementalist, I normally expect a nuker. If I ask for a monk, I normally expect a healer. If I ask for a necro, I expect an SS/Echo or Minion Master. If I am looking for something beyond this, I ask for specific builds. There is nothing wrong with an odd build, never kicked anyone out of a group before for being an odd or experimental build, but I normally double up on their class to make sure that we have our bases covered. Sometimes those odd or experimental builds are the next generation of cookie cutters.

You are right that certain classes or professions excel in certain situations, as do skills, builds, and attributes. When I am going into the UW, I am either looking for a 55 point or a SS/SV necro to accompany me, I personally don't have the time for it.

I think that the specialization of the classes is a good thing, but many players are too close minded about taking along some profession playing a different role.

The original argument seems to be based around a few major points:

1. People should be allowed to play how they want, and this should not prevent them from finding groups.
2. Stereotyping classes as fiting certain "rigid roles" is unreasonable.
3. Either a) classes and builds are all equally effective in all situations, or b) classes and builds are not all equally effective, but that doesn't matter.

It would certainly be nice if any of the above three points were actually true.

Your own exception effectively outlines the reality of the situation:
If you believe that it's okay for a group to demand a healer and kick the smite monk (which I agree with), then it should similarly be okay for groups to demand any other class and build, and kick anyone who doesn't meet those requirements.

Elitism exists because there *are* differences in player skill and differences in build effectiveness. Some people only want to play with veteran players using the proven builds. There's nothing wrong with that. The catch is that there often isn't a reliable way to determine skill until you've actually played with them, so their build is substituted as the relevant metric.

There are elitism even in games like CS and Halo, which means that the level cap is not the problem.

I believe the main problem come from how party require "recruits", where the leader have to search for party member day after day, mission after mission.

In places that is random, no one got much chance to be elitist, as luck own us all. While in place where you can find team mates, there will always be good and bad players, and that's where elitism shine. (Majority of the loud mouth elitist really aren't that good to begin with) This should be why we see more elitist here.

Basically, this game grind in party finding. While some lucky elitist got lucky and found a group of decent players before you.

It is a problem of human society, not games. Even communist countries have elitist... as some are "more equal" than others. Although generally I say that far eastern countries' people are generally more disciplined toward such elitism. White people need to beat their kids (a joke commet, but with some regard)

One should be glad he/she met these kind of people in games, so they can handle them in real life too.

I can win random arenas with a level 15. According to you, I am less experienced. This game isn't about your level, it is about your skills.

HA! Farming an area over and over doesn't make you good at it. Better than the first time? yes. However, you still suck if you use the same skill bar each time.

People don't like healing breeze for this reason:
It's a delayed heal.
Nobody wants to have a "healer" with a skill that heals 27 per second (at +9 regen), and is unstackable. Spamming it is the best way to use it, but it costs 10 energy. In pvp, it gets removed before it does anything significant.

What game are you playing? PvP isn't about skill. It's about who has the most abusable and broken builds. Rank is a measurement of time. Reputation is a measurement of skill.

Yes, monks are for healing, warriors are for tanking and protecting casters. Mesmers are 99% useless in pve.

Now, I play a lot of pve, and this is what I have to say to necromancers. If you're trying to beat a mission/quest, and you aren't a minion master, you need to uninstall guild wars because you are just plain stupid. Minion masters are the most easily abusable and powerful build to put in pve groups.

If you don't like elitists, [n]YOU[/b] lead the group. Make them do what you want them to do.

Unfortunately, because so many people have high ranks, new players have a much harder time than I did getting up to rank 3 and beyond. This is why I am a strong supporter of ranked districts (r3+ districts, r6+ districts, etc.)

However, in pve, you just have to look for a group who will let you run whatever build works for you. Just remember that most of the players in GW are immature 12 year olds, don't let them get to you because they think they're "leeter" than you.

If you're beating those arenas at level 15, then you just supported the argument you quoted, that Level means so little that people decide instead to see how well you use your skill bar.

It may not make you good at it, but any farmer with a decent amount of sense can begin to notice patterns and trends in an area. Therefore they have more experience with that region than someone who has never been there before. If all they know is that I should bring hex removal instead of condition fixers, than thats still more than I would know if I were completely new to the area.
Which is why it doesn't get used in pvp. It does have significant uses in PvP. Lets say I brought hex removal to that new area I mentioned above. What happens if someone gets hit with bleeding or poison? I'll use that ten energy spell to stabilize his health until it wears off. I can always hit him with another heal afterwards. Course the divine favor from both those spells doesn't hurt either. This spell is just my personal preference. I find it versatile while I've got the energy to use it.

That is a matter of opinion, I suppose. Because what differentiates two teams with the exact same builds facing each other on the field?Skill, and a bit of luck.
Did you happen to read what my post was about? Thats the type of attitude that ruins games for a lot of people. All true, but for the last. Any class can be used to great effect by the right player. Its sorta like my team build example above. You simply have to know how to use the tools you've been given.

They are the most powerful build to put in pve groups, its always fun to watch a small army of minions sweep across the landscape. But to believe that someone who is not playing minon master is stupid, is well...childish. Did you ever consider that maybe they might be beating the mission a second time, for the challenge? Or maybe they simply have a preference for another build-type of necro.

Thats a viable option. I can alway simply take command of a group. I have at times, during pve. And its rather fun. But try applying that situation to pvp, and you're still stuck with a long wait if you're new.
Glad to hear something come out of your mouth other than cynicism and derision.
The most mature statement in your entire post. The only part of it that I can possibly disagree with is when it is applied to higher end missions. And then only because its difficult to find enough people for a group sometimes, let alone a group who would allow a healer to get away with being a smiter.

Without those final 3 quotes I would have pegged you as the very type of person that this thread is about. You've chosen your side of the fence, which is your right. But when you're leaning on that fence, talking to the neighbors on the other side, could you at least be a bit politer?

First off I'd like to thank you for your comments to the political poster. I considered doing it myself, if for no other reason than its on the wrong website, but I thought I'd rather let somebody else do it. And you did much better than I would have.
Back to your post, thanks also for putting a different spin on things. I don't often get the right perspective from, say, a warriors angle. I do understand automatically that people asking for monks want healers. But I'm hoping in the coming chapters that may change. Even if its simply because the ritualist becomes the more oft used healer, or some new class helps out.

Also I bolded a portion of that post. For all the people that love to dictate builds to their PvE pugs, take a look at those bolded words. If you PvP and do that, even better to read it. I understand if you have time constraints, or some specific, difficult goal you don't want jeopardized. But be careful if you kick someone for the reason of their build. Cause if it can do the job its designed for, it might be kicking your ass next week.

Agreed about rank, but pvp isn't about rank. Rank is a broken game mechanic that applies only to the broken gametype that is HA. Creating "abusable and broken" builds takes skill, and their execution, at least in GvG, also takes skill. All but the lamest of ranger spike teams add at least some dash of creativity and thought to their builds.

Mesmers are as good as anything else in storyline pve, and with a well planned group (not a pickup) they can do just as well in high end pve as well.

There are plenty of other necromancer builds that are effective, not AS effective in pve, but they work, and are usually more fun. PvE is not competitive, so I don't see why "fun" shouldn't be the primary metric of whether a given pve group should be used.

Rank encourages farming with PUG's, which is addictive in a masochistic sort of way, but hardly fun, so it doesn't belong in the game at all, not to mention it creates elitism on the basis of time invested. Some sort of true ranking system should be implemented for HA, such as what exists for GvG, but I have no idea if that can be implemented on the basis of individual players. A system like wc3 uses for random team, which rates individual player skill based on performance in a team format might work.

whoa this is getting to sound more like a college level debate class.....so I will keep my answer short.
I play mesmer and smiting monk.....and when I do so, it is with henchies since they dont gripe about my build.....most of GW can be henched except a few elite areas .....I dont go to the FOW or UW very often, and have only done the elite factions missions this weekend when they were open to all....so no long term solution nor a solution on how to deal with the elitism of other people other than to just ignore the wholelot of 'em.

short and bitter, but so is lemonaide and I like lemonaide.

1. Yes, as long as it doesn't interfere with someone elses game. Just like the law. You're allowed to do certain things, but the illegal things are usually(I say this because someone may call me on a technicality) the ones that interfere with someone else's life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.
2. Should a monk do nothing but heal? If so, then why bother giving him the skills to smite?If mesmers are only wanted for interrupting, why give them domination? If Eles only nuke, why bother with other elements? These are obviously generalizations, but I hope you see my point.Smite is a 'subclass' of monk. Thats why we're called monks, not "healers' or 'protectors'.
3. I'll go with b on that one, keep on reading and you'll see why I believe so.

True, to some extent. Are you then going to kick that healer because he uses an odd build? What if you ask for a nuker, but you don't like his build? I'm a more casual player, and I have lots of time to burn, so I'd let him come if he said it worked. If you have some good reason to kick him, that is entirely your choice.
Also true. And its always fun to play with someone who knows what they're doing, or is on the same level. But because there are differences in player skill, a good player can make that ineffective build work to greater effect than a bad player can make an effective one work. Because it is an effective build its easier to learn to do damage with, compared to that ineffective build the creator had to fine tune. A shorter learning curve if you will. But you can't judge a player by their build. They might just be testing one they saw on Wiki.

Unfortunately skills seem to be the only measure of strangers at the moment. Any ideas on a better one?

Hmm latley ive been seeing ''elitisim'' alot now, when i first started this game about 13 months ago,there was more freedom in what builds people can use and there wasent really that much cookie cutter builds and as long as you had a healer you were ok. Now thats all change and you can hardly get in a group if your a mesmer or smiteing monk or not rank 3 or above.
Oh and people dont know how GOOD mesmers are in pve. Some of my guildies are primary mesmers in pve and they beat missions like hells, ring of fire, or THK with henchies on thier 1st try.
Any ways, maybe its better if all of us stayed as noobies. Or maybe take out the rank emote, people think thier all uber leet when thier rank 3 and that they just iwayed it so i would be suprised if they were any better than you.

What you are describing is not elitism, it is prudence. And the cause of it is difficulty (or lack thereof) of PvE and co-operative nature of the game.

To put it in other words, about 80% of this game is too easy. People can get through it with no skill and a terrible skill bar. This is compounded by the fact that for every mission or quest you take a team. Sooner or later, without rigid control, a bad player will get through a given mission on the back of his team. In some cases, even a team of henches. In fact, for an average mid-game mission, five bad players can get through on sixth's back. Case in point: I soloed "The Wilds" with a)MM, b)Smiting monk, c)IW Me/W.

Running is a seperate issue. I'd bet at least a third of the players today don't even know where "The Wilds" is.

So, let's take our hypothetical bad player, who took three weeks, playing every day, to get to... Thunderhead Keep (with a run from LA to Sanctum, failing most missions multiple times) He's playing the game for fun. I don't see anything wrong with that, but I do *NOT* want him in my group for Thunderhead Keep. When I'm taking a N/Me, I expect him to do something useful - SS, MM, Well Spam... if his build starts with chaos storm, conjure phantasm, ether feast and animate bone horror, I don't think I even need to hear the rest of that bar. I would first ask him to change to a build that works. If he can't do anything remotely intelligent, better luck next time.

Granted, some offbeat builds work almost as good as the cookie-cutter ones. A virulence/epidemic necro can spread 8-10 degen across the mob. As long as you're not fighting... titans, for example. But I think I have more than enough experience to recognize what will work and what will not.

So, excuse me for being elitist, or practical, as I would put it, but for the 10% of the game I can't hench, I'm going to handpick a competent team.

EDIT: Shard, mesmers are not useless in PvE (although inferior to an interrupt ranger) and MM is not the most powerful necro build, kthx. At least not the post-nerf MM. If you don't need to be a tank (or, rather, your minions don't need to tank for incompetent warriors), SS is going to do far more damage than minions. You haven't played through both campaigns with a necro :P

@Alleji
There is a big difference between prudence and elitism. Elitism involves a certain level of disrespect when you tell someone to change their build/kick them/kill them. If it were me accepting that N/me into the group I probably wouldn't even bother asking his bar. Not because I don't want to kick him. I just don't know enough about those skills to know their theoretical effectiveness. But then I only play casually as well. If we failed the mission, oh well. Try again with different tactics. Sometimes its more fun to lose than win, but then I'm in it for fun. I enjoy playing a game to escape a certain level of practicality.
Also, though admittedly easier than the pvp where the competition is always changing, PvE is not 'too easy' each level is crafted for the level of your character. What may be 'too easy' for you and I may be just right for someone else. It takes a wammo a lot less time to get through missions than it does for a smite monk. We have to worry more about taking damage, but that just makes it a challenge. I'm in for fun, not speed runs.

If I offered you either a million dollars or ten dollars (both in a legal manner), and you took the 10 dollars, yes, you would be stupid. Minion master vs [insert second-rate necro build here] is no different. The ONLY reason you would play a non-MM in pve is if you were 55 farming, or if someone else was playing MM.

Once you get to know me, I'm a pretty understanding guy. The problem most people have with me is I understand more than them, and it makes them mad...or jealous, i'm not sure which.

As for backing up the thing about classes playing specific roles. It's fine for a monk to play smite in pve if he wants to...if there are other monks on the team. My experience is that if you don't bring healing, you die. Tanks are for tanking because they don't have the energy capabilities to do anything more "magical" than an occasional self heal. I'm perfectly fine with eles, mesmers, and necros sporting whatever builds they feel like. On the hardest missions (THK, some fire island, dragons lair), I always ask the monks for their skill bar. I've played with monks with firestorm, symbol of wrath, life bond, and healing breeze onb the same bar.

One more thing @ alleji, I deleted my necro at level 7 so youre absolutely right.

Ah, exactly. If mission X, early in the game is "just right" for our hypothetical N/Me with chaos storm, then Thunderhead Keep is going to be too hard for him. I'd go as far as to say impossible to do relying on his own abilities.

I'm in this game for fun as well. Why would anyone play a game for something other than fun? (Chinese farmers aside) Except I do not find doing THK for the 20th time fun. (7 characters that got through it + capping + helping friends) Sure, if I'm playing a new class, it's fun to some extent because doing THK as a monk and as a warrior are different things, but for me fun is getting a pretty set of armor, capping eviscerate (which is why I needed to get through THK), picking up a good axe and going to HA. Or farming fissure. I used to solo fissure with a 55 N/Mo, but that was way too stressful. Hit a wrong button once and you're done for. With a warrior is nice and easy, so I find that fun. And, of course, it's something new.

Basically, doing new things is fun. For our hypothetical N/Me improving his build and getting new skills, and improving his personal skill might be part of that fun. (Or maybe, he would just copy the cookie-cutter MM from the necro standing next to him and ignore the "personal skill" part) For me, having him in my group is not fun because I'm working towards a different goal. I would not gloat in his face that I am better than him, but I would not have him in my group nonetheless.

Compare 9 bone fiends hitting for 10-15 damage + flesh golem for 30-50 vs 2 copies of SS aoe'ing the mob for 37 + 4 degen from rotting flesh + chain putrid for 107 once stuff starts dropping. (numbers on MM from memory, on SS from 16-11-10 split)

The ONLY reason you would play a MM is to provide tanking or if you haven't played a necro enough in PvE. (Which most people haven't. Same reason fire nukers aren't extinct, considering the build I mentioned does about 2-3x more damage than a fire nuker, depending on mobs.)

Once you get to know him, you'll realize that's sarcasm :P

Unless you mean Glint, ROFL. Dragon's Lair itself is a pathetic excuse for a mission. I remember the first time I went through the game, I was thinking "WTF is this, am I back in ascalon?" after elona reach and thirsty river.

If that applies to your MM argument, I'm happy. Otherwise, stafoo noob. :P

Iway, touch rangers, smite, thumpers, vim, and CG rangers take no skill to run. They win (all but vim anyway). Noobs play them, with no skill, and they win. Creating a build takes little skill. The most inventice broken build is the CG ranger, which leeloof perfected, but regardless, takes no skill.
It didn't take skill to look at air of enchantment and say "you can spam enchants on this target."
It didn't take skill to notice that when vamp touch/bite cost 5, they are broken.
It didn't take skill to look at iway and think about pets.
It didn't take skill...vim sucks.
Bunnythumpers were inventive. Regardless, it takes no skill to run. I'll stop pointing out so many examples of why you're wrong.

HA! GvG does not use a good ranking system. You can be a top 20 guild as long as you have more wins than losses. Look in any ladder archives, there is ALWAYS at least 1 silver trim guild with a win:loss ratio of 2:1. 1 loss for every 2 wins is horrible. But when you have a record of 300-150, you're gonna have tons of points racked up.

Which is why you fall under the 'prudence' category. Though I say 'elitism', I'm mainly using it as a broad term to describe a bunch of jerks. If I were that N/me, and I knew my build worked(which I don't know mesmer skills well, but I'll trust that it probably wouldn't) and had tested it, I'd be offended, but there's always another group when you're in an area like THK. Southern Shiverpeaks tends to have a higher population than some other high end areas.(But then its been awhile since I've been back there.)

I don't know much about PvP, but I'm pretty sure that everybody has lost more than once. In comparison: How many tries did it take Edison to make a lightbulb?Can you deny that most of our modern inventions are based off his work? How about Babe Ruth? Struck out (I'm no sports fan, so please accept this generalization)what, twice as much as he hit homers? They didn't lose 150 matches, maybe they just learned 150 ways not to win...

such a bunch of nonsense, all of it

lets see:
your single character is only 1 piece of a group which can get things done, IF all characters have reasonably useful skills for the particular area they are attempting to travel in.
a monk is usually who must heal, why? they are supposed to.
warrior is usually the big guy who must take all the dmg so casters dont, why? they are built to. they "CAN" nuke like an ele, oh wow so original, so interesting, it can be done, but its retarded.

do what works best and stop being noobs.

its like some monk thinking,
hey ill bring a pet just so i have another tank
(keep in mind this pet would not be lvl 20, not be tided to high attributes either)
so whats that pet going to do? ok he'll tank, until it dies, locking the monk's skill bar for 8 seconds, making him totally useless for the team. see the problem? if you wanna be experimental do it alone, on your own. and quit being a dumb ass, yes DUMB ASS with people. no one wants your "inventive builds" cause they dont work efficiently. you cause unnecessary problems for groups.

when people want a group of people, they want people who can play the roles hench play, only with some what more brains (god forbid humans think intelligently). if they wanted people to be dumb as dirt and have monks tank, then they would bring mhenlo INSTEAD OF YOU. Thats Your Example.

elitism my ass..

In PvE(which is what I mostly do) builds don't matter all that much. Sure, certain skill sets can make things easier. The thing I generally look for when I am forming a group is the ability to read. It is more important for people the read the instructions and say "yes I can do that," or "can we try it this other way instead." It is perfectly alright for people to experiment when I am the group leader. Rude or impatient people are kicked imediately no matter what. Perhaps some people may see that as elitist, though it is just avoiding the likely occurance of over aggro(in my opinion anyhow).

Oh well, this thread kind of evolved so I am not too sure if what I have said fits in very well.