Mursaat were good?

This has kinda been buggin me, so I'm asking. Were the mursaat/white mantle really good? I mean at first it seems like they only kill the chosen so they won't be killed by them, but then I find the titans and I think that maybe the mursaat were really good, trying to protect the door of komalie from being opened and having Tyria go down the drain. Your thoughts?

The mursaat were evil, but that doesn't mean they can't be defenders on the Earth. There is no group on Tyria that is 'good', all were involved in immense slaughter, but some are on different sides.

evil in what sense? selfish maybe, craving for one's survival and believing in a prophacy, klling chosens so they won't be killed... but evil as in killing things for sport (which, mind you, lots of royals in real life do, and i suppose in tyria does as well), mursaat are much nicer...

ok that being said, i hate their agonising touch too...

Another primarily self-fulfilled prophecy... if the mursaat and mantle never killed any chosen (they certainly didn't need ALL of them to power their jade structures), no shining blade would be set up, and no investigation would lead to oppose the mantle and later the mursaat. So by killing the chosen out of fear, the Mursaat doomed themselves. That doesn't make them good

Nah, they're not good... it's only that their actions for self preservation can be preceived as good. Sealing the Door of Komalie is in their own interest rather than that of others. The Titans are a threat to them, and the protection of Tyria is just a fortunate outcome from them protecting themselves.

If you believe that the enemy of your enemy is your friend, then you can say that they are good, but I just see them as being the lesser of two evils.

You're sort of correct. The Mursaat feared the Titans more than anything else because they believed that once the Titans are released, life would end. They were allied with the White Mantle so both could benefit- the White Mantle recieved powerful allies and skills needed to defend the Krytans, and in exchange, the Mursaat recieved the souls of The Chosen in order to keep the Door of Komalie from being opened. The souls of The Chosen are supposedly 'stronger' than normal ones, and therefore required fewer to keep the doors shut. Since the Liche made you believe you were fighting for the right cause, the Mursaat and White Mantle tried to stop you from allowing the Door to be opened. They would have had no problem with killing you before, but once they learn you are going to cause the Door to open, they really don't like you

I guess this will lead to the question "Is the Seer good or evil?"

Seer's a vindictive creature that lead you to destroy the mursaat in vengeance for its defeat in the war, and then has you clean up the mess for it. Utter evil, and also one of the coolest NPCs (with a better voice, and some skills, it'd be awesome!)

Anything that attacks me unprovoked is an enemy. Beyond that it's up to facts and perceptions to form my opinion. lol

The Mursaat were involved with deceit and trickery to achieve there ends. That swings them towards evil to me.

Please elaborate, I don't recall much trickery from the Mursaat themselves. Much of it was dealt by human minds, the White Mantle. The Mursaat aren't fast, they're slow and more methodical, and believe in their own racial strength to roll everything (mursaat pack chasing you in ice caves, they don't bother to rush because they know when they catch you, you're gone).

...and then there's Glint, using the player to get hold of the staff... Is Glint the master puppetteer, pulling the strings of player & lich alike through intervention and "prophecies", or just the beneficial oracle she claims to be?

...and the poor deluded Charr. Was it their own idea to attack Ascalon?

actually the charr are like the disciples of the titans... or at least they worship them =X It really comes down to whether or not the mursaat kept the door sealed out of wanting to protect tyria, themselves, or both. What I mean by "evil" is that would they be like allies if the door opened and we didn't eat them all alive before that happening? o.O

Virulance, it was to my knowledge that that is true, but the blood stones were used more as a means of no escape for chosen, because by the flame seekers prophecies, the chosen would open the Door of Komalie and they would die.

You can't tell me they had no knowledge of the Flameseeker Prophecies also, street rats in Frontier Gate etc rant about them coming true, so this isn't some unique to just those who listened to the Vizier.

IMO, Mursaat didn't want to die. And if in the process the world gets to live along side them so be it. Remember, they all but slaughtered the seer's race. Both he and Glint described them as evil at some point or another (or thats just what we get from listening to them talk of the immense slaughter).

They were killing the species of the Seer remember? Bad boys!

The Mursaat came from another world and tried to rule the ppl of Tyria, that makes them "evil"

In Guild Wars, everyone hates everyone. Warriors hate monks for not rezzing them fast enough. A lot of people hate mesmers [why?]. We hate Mursaat. Mursaat hate us. We're all enemies.

Everyone must die...Some one will always be stronger that you... unless you get a nice solo built, and then bust him/her a new hole....

Well, yes they did use the White Mantle. They allowed them to worship them as gods and to do their bidding. Doesn't that seem manipulative and sneaky? =)

The Seer's race also slaughtered them, just not as well. The Seer want's you to succeed by releasing the titans, then wants you to clean up the mess. They're the real manipulative bastard. As for Glint, prophets like to be right, so she makes sure it comes true

Mournblade, I don't think the mursaat expected worship but it was helping them, so Optimus Caliph wasn't about to tell the Mursaat 'omg kill teh noobs'.

Besides who doesnt want an army of lackeys?

I do think it's interesting that they came to the aid of Kyrta in helping the founders of the mantle to throw the Char back. Seems to me they would have just let the Char swarm them and Ascalon and let the beasts do their dirty work. Then again, maybe they like having fully charged soul batteries...

MAJOR SPOILERS******



This is very interesting... I read through the GW manuscripts just to check up on these things....

From the looks of it, it all started with the four gods of course (and many lesser gods that were pwned in ancient battles). The manuscripts said that when the four greater gods rose to power and left to oversee the realm they dropped the bloodstones onto the world. This is where I believe the Titans come into play. Perhaps the Titans were weapons of the gods that were left stored within the titan's source before the divine wars ended with Dwayna, Grenth, Balth, and Melandru pwning everyone. The Titans probably plopped down into the world along with the bloodstones.

After this the world was primordial in the aftermath of the bloodstone fall and the gods pretty much chilled back for now.

About this time the serpents (Dragons) took over the world as mystical creatures and began to sheperd the world. These dragons had some sense of foreseeing time and in their age of glory they created the flameseeker prophecies, pretty much outlining the future of what is to come.

The dragon's foresight proved to be right and the new race they have been expecting appeared in Tyria... mankind. At this point the serpents knew some real bad poop was gonna hit the fan so they said peace out to the world and their duties.

Man brought war and empires to the world and of course the not so fun stuff outline in the dragon's flameseeker prophecies starts happening. A few dragons like Glint and Kunie stayed around to see what was gonna happen out of curiosity.

While this is going on the mursaat and the seers race and embroiled in some huge war with alot of mass slaughter going down (in some other world or plane). The Mursaat WTF pwn the Seers race and the Seer escapes into the world of man. The mursaat kind of chill in their own world for now.

Man erects three massive kingdoms: Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta. The guild wars start and a whole crap load of people start dying. About this time, the beast race of charr discover the titan's source and release the titans. The charr begin worshipping the divine flames of wrath as gods and start spreading destruction because their fiery gods only exist to consume and destroy.

So while all three of these kingdoms are fighting. The charr suddenly roar from the north with flaming titan power and WTF pwn the human races. Ascalon goes down the drain.

While this is going on, Orrians discover some ancient draconian lore and attempt to become more than human by grasping this power and ascending (which is kind of like elevating the power of your spirit, something that dragons know how to do.) Glint believes humans aren't ready for this and her legions of forgotten WTF pwn the humans.

As the charr are wiping out the humans the march into Orr and as a last resort the rulers of Orr resort to an ancient artifact that was leftover from the ages of the gods (as old as the dragons and titans): The sceptor of orr (Which was probably sealed away in the tombs of primordial kings, which functions as a gate between our world and that of the gods.). In using the scepter, which has the power to control souls and the dead, the Orrians screw up and blow themselves away, transforming Orr into a giant wasteland and everyone into undead. Vizer Khilbron is transformed into the undead lich and his greed for domination of the world may be related to the "something that went wrong" with the scepter.

The charr march closer to Kryta and De'Alessio is exiled into the jungle at this point. As a nobody he stumbles into a cross world gate and meets the Mursaat, who look like divine angels to him. Alessio comes back with the aid of the mursaat after pledging is devotion to them and with the Mursaat manipulating events in the shadows, the Mantle Pwn the Charr.

Somehow during this course of events the Mursaat stumble across the bloodstone and discover how to use its powers in order to create seals and armors out of powerful human souls that have a destiny. The only way they could seal the titans away and allow the Krytans to beat the charr is to use human souls in order to charge a soul battery they built and lock the titans behind the door of komalie. Yeah its not pretty but it works... the Mursaat decide not to tell humans about this but instead manipulate the mantle into getting more human souls for them so they can feed their hungry gate against oblivion. Only select people in the mantle heirachy know the truth, such as Hablion and Dorian.

In some place, the mantle scour the ruins of orr and find the scepter. The scepter has some really bad prophecy mojo around it so they seal it in some temple. However, the scepter is linked to the undead and Vizer Khilbron (the old vizer of Orr who is now twisted and manipulative.). By bringing the scepter of orr into kryta they screw up and allow the scheming undead passage into their lands.

Of course some people find out that the chosen are being sacced and form the shining blade to fight the mantle. The shining blade retreat into the forest and begin calling for the aid of the druids in order to fight the mantle. The forest guardians are bored and have nothing really to do so they aid them with little hints but nothing to extreme (Like Dark Oak). The Druids probably just want the mantle out of their forests. Also the mursaat soul magic probably seems evil and unnatural to them.

Now the games starts, and you do all your stuff and get involved. You eventually ascend but in reality after you join the shining blade, the Vizer Mysteriously steps in with his undead powers and begins playing you like a puppet. His plan is to get the scepter and screw you over at the end by causing you to open Komalie so he can use the scepter's powers in order to control the titans and rule the world.

Of course Glint knows all of this and to her its like watching days of our lives, she already knows whats going to happen but sometimes she steps in and gives you some draconian guidance just to spice the show up for herself. After all she was one of the dragons that wrote the flameseeker prophecies in the first place.

All the while the four gods just kind of chill around and watch humans who have ascended fight to their hall or heros and perform a gladiator show. They are too busy moderating Korea, Japan, America, and Europe to worry about armageddon in Tyria. When they care, the pop out and give you a +2 moral boost to cheer you on.

So there you go, simple summary of everything going on with Tyria.

To answer your question, I believe the Mursaat didn't start "evil" because they chose to help Alessio by reviving him in the first place. However when they found out all the fun they could have with human souls, they got a little twisted and did some not so nice things. However it was for the good of the world that they kept the door sealed. Most likely they did out of fear and the flameseeker prophecies come true with each event despite what they tried to do to stop it probably drove them crazy. Thats probably why they went to such extreme measures to seal komalie, even if it meant saccing human souls. I like the mursaat and according to the manual they still have some unseen world where the hailed from in existence somewhere. I would like to see more of the mursaat if that is possible, as a new race or class even.

The mursaat are like humans, just cooler looking and they float (that touch hurts too). Mursaat, like humans are afflicted by corruption and paranoia. They collapsed under the pressure of a forboding end of the world dilemma and started going crazy. It would be unfair to say all mursaat are evil.

I may write some fan fiction on this interesting subject at some time so check lyssas fiction if I start feeling a little productive.

Bravo Helmos. Bravo.

Well, me being who I am of course wonder about the existance of everything, and GW is no exception. I believe it WTF PWN when like this (ugh, now I'm going to start saying that. yay).



So there was Melandru, Grenth, Balthazar, and D-wane. Chillin.

They was like, yo, we need stuff to worship us or what ever reason it is that God's make their things.

So they do. They make the world, life, etc.

Aaaand the God's make the races to follow them. Balthazar+Grenth make the titans of burning death. Melandru makes the Druids to make sure no bad shieat goes down. Lyssa makes the Mursaat who can use the powers of illusion to make miles of purpley jade awesomeness with the wave of their hand. Dwayna makes the seers. Others make other stuff. Dragons are the lesser god's. Not avatars, those are them. Titans live in a world where all they do is kill each other (not to different from real life eh?). Many races go extinct after the age of awesomesauce and the others go into decline. Titans decide to go out and pwn other stuff and they do. Eventually the Mursaat are the ones that beat their faces off with a good ol' back handing and stuff them back into the ring of fire, and eventually the Door of Komaile. In their uncontrolled downfall that follows (the first thing they can't control- considering they could do it to time space etc to create what ever they wanted) they freak out, loose their heads, and start killing each other.

Now, the FlameSeekerProphecies are written, and everyone freaks out. Mursaat have huge spires of jade and stuff miles high. They think they can use the power of other races and stick them in blood stones (usually just used as tombs for mursaat, and this isn't a new idea. the Eldar from Warhammer 40k do this) for power. Seers and other stuff get WTF pwned have what not and the dragons all have their lairs and are just laughing at it-- except when their lair gets sacced.

After this, Seers are in shambles out hiding, and a few others from other races have isolated themselves for the rest of forever. Mursaat use what power they have to stick their kingdom in another dimension and leave Tyria, except with a few portals.

Now, the few dragons left (Rotscale and Glint aaand a few Seers) are doing what they can to keep time from unravelling before the Flame Seeker Prophecies hit home.

Man comes along. WTF Guild Wars. WTF Pwned. WTF Orr gets wrecked and Rotscale gets turned evil, even though he was really their protector- like Glint to the Elonians maybe?

And, so the Guild Wars happen, and then like the fluff says D'Allessio finds the entrance to the Mursaat world, and they realize that the Flame Seeker Prophecies aren't acknowledged, not only their presence in Tyria will be wrecked, but their own dimension will get screwed when the titans come for revenge.

So there they are in a pickle, and decide to get D'Allessio to do his studio magic, show off his awesome, give him some magics to convince the people of his encounters with the gods, form the mantle, and be ready to WTF Pwn the charr when they come.

The charr come. WTF Pwn ascalon.

Tyria, is a little better, and the super secret white mantle jsut come out of the wood work, take over everything while they are under the siege of the charr, and then the mursaat magic ultimately turns back the titans. Leaving everyone else totally back handed when it comes to figuring out what just happened.

So the Mursaat now need to stop as many chosen as possible from becoming ascended and capable of hurting them. The less threat they get from the chosen, ultimately, the less from the titans. One man can only open so many doors on his own. 10 men, 10x as much. You get the idea.

So Orr (during the Charr time) turn to Rotscale, who is using every trick in the book at this point thinking the charr are really the titans (or a sub race, which they are, but not acknowledging the bulk of them are hidden away off in the land of the ring of fire). Rotscale pulls out the scepter of orr, and stuffs all the evil magic in it, like he did to keep himself alive many a generation ago. Vizier, seeing this thinks "holycrap I could be a millionare" takes the staff, aaaand. Boom. Good bye Orr. Evil titan magic escapes in a "jade wind" and all the orrians are zombified.

Vizier, is now the lich.

Flame seeker prophecies unfold. The seer makes you get revenge for him. Glint doesn't give you the full story cause there aint enough time and she just wants to see how well or poorly you get the job done.

Clean up of the titans, perhaps if the chosen were told, would be a bit of a turn off.



But yes. See previous post for what happens from there.



Fan Fic FTW.

double post ftl.

Nice nice, where did you get all this info? Super cool stuff and explains alot more than I could, especially with with rotscale things and scepter.

And back to the question:

I guess you could say the mursaat did some messed up stuff playing around with soul magic, but then again they were pretty much just paranoid about the world ending. But yea they did WTF pwn a crapload of the other races, including the titans at some point.

Well cmon who in GW doesnt mess with soul magic? But you cant hate the Mursaat for being awesome. Dont hate the player hate the game.

Or just the NPC's you kill anyway in cinematics



As for the dude before Lapsus's post, it is all just an educated guess. My imagination really.

Everyone has their own mind. The mursaat goal was to stop the flameseeker prophecies from ever completing, because (theory) everyone misread the prophecies that the titans would prevail. But the true fact is that the titans would be stopped by some great group of people. So the prophecies we're misread, thats why there we're mursaat and the white mantle.

In the end of hellsprepice, glint says.
"The flameseeker prophecies are now compelte."
Once you complete destroying the lich.

On what helmos said...
The forgotten are yes controlled by glint. But that did not destroy Orr..You see, those who died on the catyclsm of orr we're I think turned into undead by the lich, since they are undead, there summoner is there master no matter what. The lich, or the orrian kings vizier is the cause of the catyclsm which DESTROYED orr aka WTF pwned orr, not the forgotten. (Catyclsm is when the charr attack orr, but the vizier persuades the king to use forbidden magic which causes the whole orrian peninsula to be destroyed) Thought it still is a mystery how the vizier became the lich.

Nah I didnt say the forgotten destroyed Orr, just some of the Orrians (perhap even some elonians who may be linked to orr in some way) tried to ascend in crystal desert, thats when the forgotten layed the big daddy smack down on those few trying to be more than human. Glint said no noobs, your not leet enough for that. I agree with the vizer being behind the cataclyms.

When the ghostly hero starts talking about those who tried to ascent is he talking about elonians or orr? I'm pretty sure it was elonians... maybe some link to nightfall? Who ever they were thats who the forgotten pwned.

Hmm, It could have both been the orrians and elonians. Or just one. Since arah the capital of orr/the city of the gods aka where they use to live, caught the attention of many other continents/countrys. So the elonians trying to travel to arah, meet up with orrians, tell them about there "ascension mission", try to ascend, glints says NO HAXORZ PLEASE and sends the forgotten and WTF pwns them.

Something to remember when discussing topics like this is that alot of the happenings in the Chapter 1 storyline were just manipulations by the Lich...Playing the people right into his hands.

"Good" and "Evil" are really relative, so its hard to argue if someone is "good" or "evil". The Lich is assumed evil, but remember to the Charr he is probably a Savior. Its really a personal thing on the Mursaat...Do you agree that the Ends Justify the Means or not? Kill a few people and save your whole species (and the world). In the Real World would you be offended if Scientists killed a few people in experiments, if those experiments lead to a cure for cancer that saved millions? If No, what if I twisted that, What if the scientists were killing them for bad proposes and just HAPPENED to find the cure for cancer by doing so, is it still ok?

Those questions are really what you have to consider in "good" or "evil" in the situation.

If they never killed the Chosen...You'd have seen Titans ALOT eariler in the game than the last mission lol (As in at the start...). Them killing people is the only reason the Door stayed closed as long as it did.

Remember, its YOU that comes along and Freaks up the whole process (as per the prophecy). Mursaat didn't do anything to their own demise - It was just written into prophecy.

Well, where was the kingdom of Orr though? Where? Crystal Desert, or Krytan area...

Because the Scepter of Orr, what turned the Vizier evil, is what caused the big boom in Orr if we have any sence of logic.


Oh, here's something to go with the origin of species.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Rift
Story of the gods+the rift.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lord_Odran
Story of how the rift was found by man

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods
HO SNAP, something about the bloodstones mentioned...

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bloodstone
Nope, not Mursaat built after all. God's used them to control the gift of magic to Tyria... read the next link

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/King_Doric
Yup. King Doric, any other references to this?

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Orr
ORR, one of the cities where the Gods lived. Good bye rotscale idea.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/The_Mists
Don't want this to turn into a discussion of the UW etc, but that seriously does tell us some stuff about how life came about.


God's lived among Tyrian on the Crystal Desert peninsula area... humans suck and then the blood stones are stuck in abadons mouth to make sure they don't get into anyones hands again.

Volcano erupts and sends them out... Hmmm

Dang, I need to make a timeline.

I suppose those random chosen they didn't kill would have broken through the Onyx gate then? My theory remains this was a self-fulfilling prophecy, by killing the chosen to prevent the occurance they accelerated it by leading the chosen who were going to break the door to do so, by creating a situation which led them to discover what was going on.

...which again leads to the question whether Glint didn't actually *cause* the entire sequence of events through her prophecy.

I don't think ANet has any intention of tying up the various threads in chapter 1 and 2, or to make the story at all complicated or dark (I think they view all the events to be exactly as they appear to be), or even make the stories coherent, but a decent writer certainly COULD tie things together nicely, creating an story arc which was both epic, complex, and a tad darker.

Personally I'd love that.

Also the Charr definitely needs more attention. What's not to love about a brutal, primitive, people in mortal fear of, and therefore worshipping, Mursaat and Titans?

Where is the Charr homeland, anyway? Somewhere to the north or east?

I personaly think the mersat are evil think of them as the evil dudes in Half life 2 (SPOILER)






They are basicly a alien race that try to take over planets and earth was next so they used the adminstrator (can't remeber his name) to take over the planet and not have many casuties.

Its near enough the same with the mursat they used humans to kill off the char which had some tie up to the titans as they have burning totems of titans and im guessing they knew a bit about the flameseeker prohpies before and therefor helped the humans kill em off. So when the mursat help push back the char army they are now known as gods and they have a firm grip over Kryta and soon to be the rest of the world. However once they find out about Humans being the chosen they order them to kill them.

If they were good they would of proberly either told them about it and told them about the titans or just left them alone. They simply were trying to take over anouther planet.

Also im not sure about the theroy of Mursat being made by gods same as the Titans...Titans are well known monsters to be able to be able to kill gods, maybe thats why Glint wanted you to go do it in the first place of course she told you all about it when you killed her beacuse now she's in gods realm if Grenth is killed by a Titan who knows what might happen...oh and as you know there are many ways Titans could get into God realms eg HoH UW FoW etc.

Well Gods and Titans fighting isnt a new idea (greco roman mythology ftw).
I could see Glint using and creating the flameseeker prophs to destroy her peers. I mean other then those upstart humans, the mursaat and the titans are her and the remaining dragons only compitition to ruling the world. Have some intrepid adventurers kill off the competition and then have them get slaughtered by some pretty powerful dragons would do nicely. A short while later every major town is giving you tribute and then you seal the gates to the god's realms. Dragons ftw

Of course she did. Prophecy is meant to be given, else the events won't neccesarily happen. Glint also did everything possible to make sure it all went according to plan.

The Charr home is far in the north, past the shiverpeak mountains.

Of course the Musaart are good. They're freaking FLOATING and have gold halos! I mean, your character must be retarded to attack these holy, golden beings all on the suggestion of an shifty floating black dude who wants you to bring him the EVIL Scepter of Orr, and the only way to defeat the Musaart is to go to an EVIL seer who wants you to bring her the EVIL essence of an EVIL creature and infuse into your armour in an EVIL ritual. Common sense fails once again...

Don't be so childish and ignorant,when it comes to the topic of the nature of different races ,there is no race which is 'good' or 'evil' .Every race has an inherent instict to SURVIVE ,and if that means dominance over other species to ensure it ,then so be it .

You mean norse .