Why is it that so many people like big numbers?

Why? Why is it that so many people get turned of by GW because of a lvl 20 cap? by low damaging weapons?



Let's just for the sake of discussion assume something...


Picture this;

All numbers in GW got multiplied by say... 10!


So instead of a lvl 20 lvl cap, there would be a lvl 200 lvl cap! Everything would work the same! Easy, as there are no armor or weapon level restrictions right? Let's then say that you would get an attribute point at every 10th level.

You would still level at the same pace, but you would level 10 times as fast, due to the fact that there would be 10 times as many levels.


Lets imagine that all weapons calculations would be 10 times as large... or perhaps 100 times as large.

Everything would be the same. Just putting a few more 0s here and there.


Would this make people happy? GW had one of the longest campaigns I have ever played in a game? It took me longer to eat my way through all the missions + bonus + most of the side quests than it did me playing any other RPG. Online nor off.


Leveling much faster... What would this accomplish? A feat? Would it help character advancement? Would it give you a much cooler feeling when going into a town and watching a lvl 1 dude, when you where lvl 200?


What do you think... Should swords max damage really be 150-220 instead of 15-22?

It's interesting... because perhaps just even this silly illusion would make some people more motivated to play? perhaps this would give some people a greater sense of accomplishment? sense of reward and pride and honor for just having many more levels and higher damage.

why even have levels at all? what is good character advancement anyway? why do we need levels anyway? if its not about grinding but about skill, why not just remove it all together? when there is "only" 20 levels? what really does it accomplishs in its current form?

If the cap for levels was 200 and everything was the same, you would level from 1-10 in a minute or less..

well we need levels 1-20....

you cant dump a newb into a more advance mission like THK or Abbadon's mouth and expect them to survive.

That being said, 1-20 is just to teach you the ropes. "The real fun" begins past 20....just like in real life >.> *giggle*

not if you stretched it over the entire game... meaning that side quests would give more viable xp...

the game is long. the last 10 levels in the current cap takes a very long time to reach. monsters give almost no xp.

there sure was times in the crystal desert where I felt... "oh boy this is slow". and if you stretched lvl 1-200 all the way to ring of fire, it would be fast but it would be consistent at least.:-D

anyway its not a suggestion, its just speaking my mind largely...

dude..you dont really understand its not the cap its the lack of things to do.

You answered your own question. It's the drive to succeed, not numerics. People want to achieve the highest level, whether it's 20, 200, or 2,000. Nobody goes into a game saying 'Oh, I want to be level 18. How high do the levels go?'. They look at the top, and aim for that.

but then why do people feel more speciel when they are level 200 compared to when they are 20?



"lol ur lvl 20! gj n00b rofl!!11 go play hello kitty online now LMAO!!!11"

Go play WoW if you want more levels. Go play MUDS if you want hundreds of levels.

People like big numbers...

Doing 150 - 220 damage when your opponent has 4800 health is the same as 15-22 damage when your opponent has 480 health... but the 150-220 just sounds different.

I like lvl 20... :/

It is a sad truth about this game when it comes to some players expections. I have a freind that said GW sucked because you can only do like 20 or 30 damage to someone. I treid to explain to him that damage is relative, 20 or 30 damage would be bad if your fighting enemies with 1000+ health, but when they only have 400 or 500 health its perfectly reasonable.
20 Level cap FTW

EDIT: doh some one beat me to it lol

Because 60 is _three times_ better than 20!


Now, the really interesting question, the one which needs to be answered is.... will WoW raise its level cap when the expansion is released?

Courtesy of IMDB:

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel Tufnel: These go to eleven.

"I have higher numbers than you, so im better than you."

Really:

"I have invested more time than you, so it appears im better than you."

simple math 200 beats 20.

But GW isnt about simple math

Yeah, I do not mind the level 20 caps. I actually like creating characters in Cantha and bust out of Shing Jea around 15 and finish Kaineng at 20. That way I can get my max armor set and get to enjoy the two lands (Tyria and Cantha).

Having the lvl20 cap makes it easier to balance out the game. Especially considering the game has a pretty heavy PVP element to it. Having players ranging anywhere from lvl20-30 playing PVP would throw the balance out pretty badly. Unfortunately this level cap is also very detrimental in that chapter 3 is about to come out and chance are, the level cap will still be 20 for that game too. Personally I would rather the lvl20 cap stay because increasing the level cap would require a serious overhaul of the entire game and loot system. Right now you can get top of the line stuff in the lower shiverpeaks, and those monsters are pretty easy to kill. Imagine a lvl 30 going back there to farm....

NOPE

it is the people who have to see people all around them with SMALLER level numbers so they can prove they are superior.

they arent shooting for the top number to achieve the top number but only to be *superior* with a number to prove it

GW creats intense panic in those people with a common syndrome expressed most commonly like this

*OMG I AM SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WITH THE SAME TOP LEVEL NUMBER AND I HAVE NO WAY TO PROVE I AM SUPERIOR TO THEM*

Nailed it.

Call me crazy, but I know some people who actually lvl grind just for their own feeling of self-accomplishment, and dont really have an inferiority complex. I'm not sure why they do, but I know it's true.

big numbers make up for small...
ill let your imagination go the rest of the way.

From gamestop:

Here is just a partial list of what you can expect from the World of Warcraft expansion:

* An increase in the level cap to 70

and other fun stuff

People are greedy for big numbers. It is just like the lottery. Everybody plays it for the 20 million, and nobody cares that your chances would be bigger if there were more prices of 100.000.

Really smart businessmen know that

QFT! I loved that bit.

However, there is a major downside to having a level 20 cap and I'm certain guild wars developers have noticed it by now.

With the cap maxed out at 20 in the first installment of the game this will pretty much shut the door for later character development.
So Guild Wars has pretty much shot itself in the foot.
The question many are asking is: "What's the point of buying/playing factions if I won't really gain anything from it."
The things Guild Wars has done to try and mitigate things, have so far proven ineffective: 2 new classes that still don't fit into that idea of the perfect team(side liners), a few new skills(most of which are simply copies of old ones) and the chance to run around in downtown china slums.

The fact they are releasing Nightfall (without new level cap) now only serves to worry me more, many people (myself inclued) have not finished the Factions campaign so what's the odds of us buying Nightfall let alone completing it.

Of course we like big numbers, to people bigger numbers mean more power and who doesn't want to be more powerful. I do believe there should be a limit to such power, level 200 is a bit far fetched and even WoW's 60(soon to be 70) is too extravagant for my tastes.

NWN had a similar problem (the same one infact), very few people bought there first expansion because by the time it came out most everyone had reached the level 20 cap. There answer was for the second expansion to raise the cap to 40, this bid payed off in the long run as sales increased greatly.

I hate to play Devil's advocate here, but I fear what will happen to our beloved Guild Wars if this keeps up.

This is one of the reasons why GW is better than runescape: to get to the highest lvl doesnt require half your life... plus no one like a grind monkey.

Yeah same reason that people drive gigantic SUV's and Humvees.

I really don't think leveling up is fun and I'm happy with a lvl 20 cap.
Since it's a 20 cap, players can have a chance to test out more classes/professions.

those mindless robot grindmonkeys cant see it so i will ask you to answer the following simple (for you) question.

where is the gain, where is the development?

love that quote Loviatar.

Makes me laugh everytime i see it

In fact think about this.

If they create a higher level cap, all it does is this:

it reduces the amount of content.

Since you are stronger, the enemies are weaker, meaning only certain enemies will give you any challenge. What fun is that?

With lvl 20 as the standard, all the game expansions will be open to you.

did you read my post???

If you did you would see with my example, that if it was lvl 200 you would only get an attribute point at every 10th level. So it would be EXACTLY the same.

That was the entire point of the thread. ZING! Why is it that so many people hate gw for low level cap, and would these people love it if you put more 0s behind on the numbers?

It would be pretty easy to modify numbers in the running memory so the game client shows you as lvl 200 to yourself. ^^

A digital character levels to level 20. The human playing the character levels mentally after that.

A poorly played level 20 is as as east to kill as a good player at level 10. A good level 20 player is tougher to defeat than a level 28 PvE enemy.

Leveling past 20 in Guild Wars is up to player skill, not level.

We do not have numbers to reflect our strength. Our skill represents our strength.

YOU KNOW SOMETHING... your right.


I guess I'm just tired of logging on to the same Guild Wars once a week seeing the same character, at the same level, with the same skills(+1 flesh golem), with the same 15k armor, for the last 6 months or so. I guess it just feels like the game is going no where, fast.

I was hoping Factions would change that, but it didn't... not nearly enough.

I read your post.

And i stand by my post.

Maybe YOU didnt read my post.


Increasing the level cap is bad (as in adding more levels)

Which was response to Loviatar, which was a response to Bhaal mentioning GW shooting themselves in the foot. Havent you been following the conversation? ;P

my real response to YOU in particular are these:

i hope you get the humor in that post, because its a joke and really a half hearted response. ;P

This response is me acknowlodging this illusion that 200 is better than 20, even if it was on the same scale. And i throw a little joke on the end.

lets put it simply: if you could come up with a balanced formula to make a game, go make your own? fair enough, no?

it'd be like in SF, you easily get like 1 mil points for doing nothing...

i personally feel 20 is just right...

You are absolutely correct sir.

When Horde(NWN expansion 2) came out, the level cap got intensely increased and it added so much more life to the game. It still has a very large fanbase today.



I remember that in early beta I had a discussion with the guy who runs Photics.com and gailie grey about it. And back then it made sense to me. It seemed like a good idea to not "force" people to buy the new expansions to remain competitive.


But if we look at the situation right now, the majority of people feel that you have an unfair disadvantage if you don't have factions new skills and proffesions!
Maybe ArenaNet should just have increased the level cap again and again and again.

Because im sure that many people didn't wanted to buy factions on the principle alone that it still was only lvl 20!

I tried to get my cousin to buy it and he said; "whats the point! my character is already 20 and I got more than enough skills to play with. alliance battles looks lames. the new proffesions does not interest me. and its just more of the same with no new character advancement".

And I can't argue with him. On the other hand im trying to explain to him, how much it sucks having to buy new products you don't want to just to keep up with your friends. Taking a break from GW, then coming back 3 months later to find out that the cap has been increased.


But it also creates another dilemma. As it currently is there are almost no difference between a lvl 1 and a lvl 20. They look absolutely the same. This is not only due to the incredible small and tiny amount of weapons and armors in the game, or the fact that all does share the same appereances, but just the fact that there is not a big difference between lvl 1 and lvl 20.

Then imagine if it was lvl 1 and lvl 200. Now that would be a big difference. Already when your lvl 75(7-8 lvl normally) after leaving pre-searing you would feel superior. At least many people would...

and its funny. yeah it is for useless bragging and no it's not a game breaker, but it's more of the same current end game. 100% similiar to wasting time finding weapons that look good or getting 15k armor just for show. That is really what GW is about in its end game. the game really only has flashy substans, so to me it seems sort of mute to argue with my logic from the perspective that its "Useless" or unneeded".


But even since alpha in 2003 there are people who have always denied and tried to tell other people in Guild Wars what the majority of people want. and here we are, 1,5 years later after 2 game releases, and "only" 2 million copies sold.

We don't even know how many of does players are still active. I bet its very few. otherwise NCsoft would have released them a long time ago for damage control.

...I don't get it, are you saying higher levels is a good or bad thing? Because if you think it's a good thing you're a moron

Im not saying either. Im saying, why is it that people like big numbers(hench the title).

No I don't have anything to back up that claim other than thousands of "gw sucks so bad" posts on international gaming forums, where all the hate is on the level cap.


It's funny that you call me a moron when you have not even got my point. But you are exactly right, I AM AN MORON.

Im one of does idiotic wammos you wish would just go away. I don't deserve to live. If you wanna threaten me, that's okay, but can't you at least make a PM about it mate?

I don't have a problem with it. In fact im sort of cool with it, as I hate myself. The fact that you want to hurt me makes me feel glad because thats how I would feel about myself if I was not me.

cheers!

RANT ON

Honestly, and I don't mean to be rude, only the truly shortsighted view the level 20 cap in Guild Wars as flawed game design. Only the truly shortsighted believes that *grinding* your way to 40-60-80 in a game as radically different from any other MMO as GW will improve things.

The reason the cap is set at 20 and is easily reached is that, as someone previously stated, the game rewards skill and adaptability over raw power and equipment. Even the most expensive equipment is generally focused on vanity over stats, allowing the poorest of players to be on the same even playing field as the richer ones.

As for accomplishments ... why is there the belief that gaining levels is the only measure of worth to many? Look at what GW has to offer in terms of accomplishment:

- A very rich and immersive storyline compared to most MMOs which have none, or at least none that the players get involved in. I'm a story junkie, finishing these feels damn good.

- A variety of titles that a player can work towards, such as exploration or skill unlocking.

- Extremely challenging PVE encounters that measures a player's ability by his skill and communication instead of his level or l33t equipment. Completing a mission makes me feel far better than merely leveling. Even in WoW, I got more satisfaction from beating an instance than I did gaining a level.

- Very intense PVP and a PVE that properly prepares you for the challenges of PVP (being that mobs do nasty shit like interrupts, selective targeting and properly timed AOE attacks). Plus the PVP gives you goals such as ranking, rewards and national pride (you fight to earn the favor of the gods).

- The ability to dye your armor to find a look that fits you instead of necessarily looking like every other <insert class here> who has also raided the same dungeon as you for the last year. And the top end armor is varied enough to fit different playstyles contrary to raid armor in WoW, for example (ask any feral druid what he thinks of druid raid gear). I personally consider farming for the money and mats to acquire the exact look I am seeking to be quite gratifying. Hell, my necro's has massive sex appeal now, lol.

As for scalability, au contraire, Guild Wars is FAR more scalable than other games. By keeping the cap at 20 and designing most content for it, it means that players will always find new expansions to be challenging and interesting and won't restrict who can or cannot try them out.

RANT OFF