[Spotlight Concept #4] Improve the Challenge of PvE

Hello folks. It is once again time for another Spotlight Concept. I'll be your master of ceremonies, Undivine. King Symeon has been extremely busy with his life (lucky sod... having a life), so I'm stepping up to the plate.

As you know, our spotlights so far have centered around new god realms - the equivalent to Fissure of Woe, except for the other 3 gods (or goddesses as the case may be). Our last one was Melandru's Realm. However, I'm sure it will come as no surprise that we are not continuing that trend. Time for something new and fresh.

So here goes it. I pose this question to all of you: How can we raise the challenge in PvE?

Now when I say "challenge" I don't mean higher hit points on our monsters. What I mean is having PvE require more skill or perhaps even something besides combat. Let us hear your ideas on how we can make PvE more fun. Should it have more interactive quests? Should it have some level of randomness? Should it rely more on monster-only skills? Tougher monster builds? Mazes? Puzzles? Newer and more interesting challenges that may or may not be combat related?

Some things to keep in mind however: This thread is NOT intended for new skill ideas, new concept classes, or anything of that nature. The focus is on the challenges we will face in PvE. As for you PvPers, you will eventually get your turn, so don't fret. Furthermore, try to make suggestions that are feasible for ArenaNet to Implement.

Happy posting!

There are almost endless ways to make PvE more challenging, but seeing as how the last time i posted in one of these, it went for 5 pages, I'll try to limit it this time around. The heart of the challenge in PvE will come from:
1) Variation
2) Semi-Consistant level of Challenge

Its kinda wierd to have the words Variation and Consistant sitting right next to each other, and being used to describe the same thing at that. Huh.
Variation, it keeps things new, keeps the player guessing. It makes you think on your feet, not only adding a level of urgency, but forcing faster reactions. Part of the reason I think T-Head was so hard for people the first time around, was simply because of the curveball it through at you. You couldnt win because you had the bigged sword or the most explosive nukes. It was a new element. The Prophecies campaign didnt throw too many different concepts at us, just had us do the same BASIC thing with small changes to the overall theme. So in Thunderhead, when we were stuck in this fort, with powerful enemy forces outside, and given resources to use to defend it (catapults), some people didnt understand the concept of defence, since up to that point, it had been almost entirly: "Kill your way to Point X, Kill your way to Point Y, Kill boss Z. You win." This would be why the mission always seemed easier with henchies. They dont have a problem with the variation, like humans do.
So, we need variation. What kind of variation? Take all the missions that you've been given so far, and think how you could do the same basic objective, a different way. The Deep was one that mixed things up. Splitting up the party required a level of on-the-spot coordination that most of the rest of the game didnt ask for. We need new ideas inmplimented into the already existing world correctly. That will be the first step to making PvE harder.

Step 2, Consistancy in Difficulty.

First, for those of you who've finished both games, think about the final boss fights. In my mind at least, one was far too easy, and one was just annoying. We had the Lich King, who really didn't pose too much of a challenge, simply because you had one target to focus on, and no other outlet for damage. But the hell he was annoying, because as soon as he's about to dye, he just decides to walk off the freaking bloodstone. oh joy. kill him again.
And in the other corner we have shiro, who was, in my mind, utterly pathetic. no exception. my party killed him in 2 min with no casulties, and not even a high level of damage on any one player. Raisu Palace on the other hand, had a cruel streak, simply because it took party coordination. you had to think about which henchies to bring, how it would effect the level, and then how your party would deal with the other areas. Right there, thats variation. that and the fact that the level itself was relativly hard created a good experience. But then you go on to fight Shiro, and 2 min later you're all "WTF? That's Shiro? ZOMFG! ROFL!"

So thats my 2 cents. Mix things up and make the difficulty level easier at the beginning, and harder at the end. Please dont make the final boss too easy. Please?

My thought goes the same as Undivine.

Here are some list...

- More Randomize Mob and Events
- Less Mob (too many make it boring), but more Interactive and Interesting
- More Rewards to "special deeds", like in-map power ups
- More Immersing and Interactive Enviorment
- More repeatable exploration quest
- More Lores and RP stuff
- More Character Development
- Day&Night/Weather/Enviromental Effect

To expand on your day/night/weather thing, ActionJack, I always thought Riverside Province was a somewhat interesting mission because you are sneaking around. The night was just ambiance, but the idea of it was different from the usual hack 'n slash.


As for weather, environmental effects that one can actually take advantage of would be really cool. Say, in rain the ground gets muddy and everyone's running is reduced by 15%, including the enemies. So you plan for ranged attacks and snaring tactics. That sort of thing.

In fact, they already have environmental effects, but the enemies aren't affected by them. I don't really see the point of that. That spikey coral is just a minor annoyance, where it could have been an interesting tactic twist.

For PvE to truely become a challenge many things really need to change or be re-worked.

Not saying skill builds or new skills as requested above, but new skills that would do little or nothing in PvP are desperatly needed for some added challenge or simple enhancement.
Warrior Taunt for example, or a Charm spell that turns friend against foe. Spells that cause insanity causing the player or mob to randomly attack anyone and use skills/spells wildly and without reason. Many of these things will never come to pass as long as they have no place in PvP, but in PvE they would add a great deal of needed challenge and change.

More dynamic quests and challenges:
Having some quest giver give out a randomly chosen "seek out item/person", or "destroy X number of X creature" for your reward.
Having mobs spawn in a zone randomly would further add something more dynamic to the game.

Mobs acting like mobs:
This is such an easy one to fix. Bugs should act like bugs. Bugs should not act like Jade Brotherhood and an Am Fah mixture. the Bugs in echovald are nothing but the same exact mobs we fought through in the slums of Cantha, they are just wearing a new skin. Once you learn how to beat the Jade and Am Fah, you pretty know what to expect through out the rest of Factions.
The bugs, should have been made to act like bugs. Imagine having the Mantid assassins come up from the ground (like those annoying "roaches" in Proph) 12 thick. They fall very fast, yet do massive damage in great numbers... as bugs should do (ever seen ants take down an animal?). The Bugs would have been a lot more challenging had they been made like bugs.
Further, "humanoid" mobs shuold be fewer in number, yet far more powerful than they are now, and in fewer numbers. In Factions right now, we come across Jade, Am Fah, Wardens, etc. Each group is almost to the letter, the same exact one we fought two steps back. So it's the same fight again, and again, and again, and....
A great deal of improvement would have been to space out the "balanced" groups and throw more "bugs" in for variation.

Mob only skills:
Throwing in mob only skills with the above mentioned fixes would have been very nice. Imagine the warden "clubber" having a skill that when it hits you, you get knocked back a good ten feet unless countering it with say Balanced Stance or something. This would give cause for the warrior to hold aggro with a taunt else the back line gets destroyed.

Fix the AI:
This alone will go a great way to adding more challenge to PvE. First, fix the henchies to act half as smart as the mobs are now. Anet can then go about fixing the mobs to act like they should instead of "fool" fodder.
AoE "fix" still needs "fixing". If I can cast a zero damage AoE and cause the mob AI to flee from me, though they are not taking any damage at all, something needs reworking.

Other things have already been mentioned above, so I'll leave those to those posts.

The whole concept of "Tanking" needs to be thrown right out the window. It breaks PvE, leads to the same builds, and makes it too damn easy. It also makes it so there's no need for disruption. Leaving mesmers unable to get a group and rangers almost all universally packing "Barrage" as an elite. Take "tanking" out and you'll get much more diversified builds in PvE. You can do this by...

Buffing Monster AI, AI needs to start acting like PVP players, there we always be skills broken in PvP or PvE if you don't do this. Spiteful Spirit and Fire Magic in general are huge examples of this.

We also need to have monk mobs that are at least as good as the healer henchies and put them in far more locations.

Also, monster skills are very cool, they need to put more of them in more places. Think of the "OMGWTF!" your group got first time you ran into a Fire Djinn. They need more monsters that give you the "OMGWTF!" effect.

Interesting. I don't see how having the exact same mobs acting like PvPers would be any fun at all, when GW PvP is amoung the most boring possible PvP I have ever played. It's the exact same thing over and over again. Similar to fighting the Jade Brotherhood now. I see a knight, and I know what he will do, I know what he will likely be followed by (rit, ele and mesmer). In PvP, I see a warrior carrying an axe and can prety much tell what he will be doing. See a monk, same thing. By removing the PvE boundries on mobs and players, Anet can come up with more creative skills and abilities to use without upsetting PvP.
I am also curious how removing the warriors role in PvE would make it more challenging. Maybe it would now, but I think the thread is to improve PvE, not make it a PvP clone vs AI. We have that now in Zaishen Challenge, and it's not just bad, but horrid.
Besides, I think many PvEers are looking for some adventure and challenge in the PvE game, not a Quake clone where we fight AI designed for PvP arena play.
Could you explain how your suggestions would improve PvE while not making it PvP vs AI on a wide scale? Seriously curious.

they really do need to add surprises in the PvE style. there are posts online to tell you exactly what to do in EVERY area in the game. cause mobs dont change. that i think is the main thing that needs to be changed. i could print out 40 pages off the internet and NEVER have to think in the GW would ever again. also in response to Guest's talk about all of them acting the same in PvP i say AMEN to that! PvE needs to be diverse not same old same old like in PvE. if they made us wonder what a mob was going to do as apposed to seeing a monk and go o well duh hes a healer or o hes a prot. change it up. the easiest way i found to kill warriors and whole groups of people in say aspenwood would be to go in as my monk and set up for smite. it was great to have a warrior run up to me thinking i was a lowly healer and then get his ass kicked before he could even type "wtf???" whihc many of them did waiting to respawn i might add. if there was more variety like that i think PvE would be a WHOLE lot more challenging.

*edit*
LMAO did i just hear someone utter the words"at least as good as healer henchies" im pretty sure that would actually be a downgrade for most mobs imho

WasAGuest, you make a good point on the PvE enemies all running off the same script with different skills. I wish they would actually make the enemies behave more like their characters. I mean, why do I see brainless insectoid creatures casting highly intelligent mesmer spells? Instead of fighting Chkkr, I'm really just fighting Mesmer, Ele, Assassin, Monk.

Perhaps some monsters out there shouldn't even have a class. They should change the icon of monster skills so that there's an icon for monster skill spells, monster skill stances, monster skill glyphs, etc. so that they're easily discernable, then just roll with it and go crazy with monster skills. The only problem I could see is with spells like Arcane Thievery (one of my favorites), which don't work against monster spells.

That, and tweaking the AI so their behaviour is more authentic.

PvE was relative boring (or atleast could be better) for several reasons. I would contribute it to two major factors, 1) lack of things to do and 2) hords of ever-same mob that offer little excitment.
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I will go off on 2 for now as part of continuation off Undivine the Candian and WasAGuest.

I agree on making the mob more varity, and more interesting to face, which challenge player to utilize more stratgies. For most part (when playing solo with the Henchies), when face mobs, the best you can do is just to divid a bigger group of mob, and just click and go at it, trying to take down the most desirble target first, than the less threaten target. When face with a same or similar group (which happen alot in a map), your action pretty much is the same. Grouping with humans, while offer better cordernation of attack, still remain much the same.

So how to make that more challenging and fun?

For one, make less mob, for more just mean more grind through, and create a boring gameplay. But need also to make them more interesting, to create "memorible moments".

I don't agree with taking the class out of mob. I do agree on giving mob more inherent ablity and weakness. Like a Troll. Instead the need to cast Troll Urgent, they should already have it on all the time. But also make them weaker to fire and burn longer. Things like that. It would help give mob more personality, making them stronger to some attack, while weaker to another, and thus make certain change to attacking stategy more visible.

Another is the need for more random mob placement. Think like the classic PRG with the landmine mob encounters. What you face (spawn differntly with each instantce of map) will be differnt group of mobs. This create interesting dynmatics, especially if they are spawn close to one another.

Day and Night, should such thing be added, could play a factor as well, in allowing certain type of mob to appear on in certain time. A map with lots Devour in day could turn into lots undead at night.

And adding to mob behanviour, I hope to see them not just stand around patroling all the time. Instead, you might walk into a troll cave (befoe you aggro them) and found them huddle together eating... or see group of griffin sleeping, and such. Seeing them go about their "daily bussiness" add more personality,a nd make the more belivible as a creature of the world, and not just obstacle put in your way. Also I would hope to see more Mob on Mob actions... where you can even lead one mob to attack another, and take advantage there.

(NOTE: most of those are meant for changes to the exploration area, and not the mission area. Missions should still remain tightly scripted and in its own timezone/weather)

Well, thats some of my suggestions on that topic.

a lot of good points jack i like your troll-like idea. only thing i saw wrong with your world is the night and day thing. as much as i would LOVE it...i think with all the timezones actually haveing it make a difference would be...difficult. cause even though there are diffenent servers for different parts of the world even within a server theres what a 6 hour time difference.(sorry i dont do geography) anyway i really dont wanna be playing in the dark when i get home from school

Time zone will not be real time. Will say have a rotating day/night every 3.5 hour. That means you are not going to be lock to one time zone when you play. So for example, if you play every day at 5pm, at that time, it would be day, day, night night, day, day, night... and so on for the week. Thus you can always experience differnt in-game day and night.

damn reallt thought this out havent you lol. that sounds like a great system actually. i like the way you think lol

More little puzzles like the teleports in the desert area in prophecies. When I first saw them I had no idea what i was supposed to do with them. Out of all the rpg games ive ever played this has the least amount of puzzles. (Maybe its an online thing, this is my first online game)

Less mobs but with better skills in those mobs. More variety in them too. Giving them secondary profesions would be good too in some areas. Gives the possibility for more variety.

More random mobs.
Moving mobs. Instead of staying in one place they can patrol a large designated area.

Well, we all know that ANet balances for skills for the PvP enviroment first and foremost. Spiteful Spirit is a great example of this. In PvP Spiteful Spirit isn't overpowering at all becuase most players are smart enough not to swing through it, it just shuts down a warrior for the duration of the hex. In PvE it totally overpowers everything becuase mobs cluster around the warrior and stupidly swing through it until they kill themselves and thier group.

If you had those PvE mobs behave more like thier PvP counterparts (i.e. not swing through it) then the skill would not make PvE rediculously easy.

Also, Let's look at how "Tanking" shuts out a lot of builds. With "Tanking" you can mitigate a huge amount of damage that gets to your group by manipulating enemy AI to focus on a guy built totally for self defense who is then protted by the monk. This completely kills the need for any sort of character that focuses on defensive disruption. A necro that packs things like Shadow of Fear and Enfeebling Blood (you know instead of Arcaned Echoed Spiteful) an Elementalist with Wards, Ritualists with Shadowsong, Ineptitude Mesmers ect so and and so forth. Any number of builds that can shut down melee just aren't needed or called for becuase the AI of mobs are too stupid to hit a meaningful target.

Plus do away with "Tanking" and OMG! Assasins have a place in PvE groups again. Seriously there are a ton of builds in PvE that you can't just run in PvE without pissing someone off becuase you might upset the precious aggro of the tank. My Oath Shot Trapper is a prime example. Think of Beastmasters for Christ's Sake! An entire Ranger attribute line!

Not removing it, just changing it. If mobs no longer cluster around the same guy like an idiot, then a much lower premium gets put on AoE damage and a higher one gets put on single target damage. Who has the best single target damage of any class in the game? That's right , the Warrior.

Take us away from mob killing. Forcing players to split up across the whole map will be a cool feature to see.

I gotta admit Shiro's banishment ability was pretty cool.

Thanks for explaining QuixotesGhost. That makes more since now. I agree, spells like SS, which my necro uses very often and as a back bone of the build, does make some foes far too easy. So I agree with the idea it should stop "some" foes from attacking through or reacting all together.

Here's a question for all:

Which would be more interesting to play against in PvE:

1) All foes instantly reacting to what the player does, or instantly reacting to it's inviroment:
Staying with what we have discussed so far; A) a "bug" with no idea what SS is, instantly stops attacking the second it is hit with SS, or B) a swarm of bugs with no idea what SS is and become enraged (giving them higher resistance to damage and gaining a higher natural regen) when hexed or hurt?

2) Anet moving towards making mobs in PvE unique and reacting differently to situations as well as their ability to use their skills.
A) The troll as Jack mentioned is given faster or "smarter" reactions to the players' skills/spells so that it acts like the human warrior you fought just three zones back giving it a harder challenge; or B) the troll is given a natural always on Trolls Unguent and a resistance to all damage from all but fire based weapons and attacks, with the knowledge that it fears nothing but fire.

3) Giving mobs more power with even the players' skill sets:
A) A mob that has unlimited energy, can instantly interupt anything the player tries to do, understands what the player is doing and knows what a monk is, even if it's a "dumb bug", or B) Give the mobs personality and uniqueness that makes them dangerous in thei own right. For example, a "bug" with a Conjure Phatasm like spell, but instead hits all group members within range at the same time would be far more deadly and difficult (as well as giving the players the "WHOA!" reaction than a bug with instant interupt abilities.

Note: Some changes to the PVE game would indeed make it easier at first. Anet would have to go through and alter the AI and abilities of foes. The goal of course is, more difficult mobs via challenge and test of players' skill. Not their ability to make a build. Making PvE more dynamic and mobs with superior abilities, not reactions (as PvP is won by) would go a long way into improving PvE.

Imagine Chkkr as a bug rather than a mesmer. Chkkr is standing all alone drinking from the stream. Here come the players and attack it. Chkkr uses his AoE in defence which gives all players in range Conjure Phantasm, it then "distorts" itself while using his ability to call for help. If the players don't stop the call, a swarm of bugs drop around him and attack the players. The players are now forced to work on the new swarm, or continue trying to hit Chkkr who is constantly trying to stay distorted while attacking with it's ability to give all in range Conjure Phantasm. If the players wipe out the swarm, Chkkr calls for more help and repeats untill it is dead.
Chkkr is not a "caster" so backfire and the like will not stop his call or spread of Conjure Phantasm as it is an ability, not a spell.
The players will have to adapt to different tactics to defeat mobs rather than bringing the typical build.

Lastly, imagine a new undead foe, a mummy. Ancient and powerful. Highly resistant to all forms of damage, even fire. It is a magical creature to begin with so it is given some very unique abilities. One such ability, to take control of all undead minions within it's radius. It then turns all minions into vampiric minions and in so doing contantly heals itself as they attack. It can also raise minions instantly, it is an ancient undead after all and should have some better understanding of death than even a necromancer. Death and decay surround it, so even getting close causes the players to get diseased.
It's weakness; it can not be healed from other sources other than it's minions. It has no natural regen, spells or energy. Would it be beatable? Sure, just kill it's minions first and keep corpses blown. MM can use Veratas (sp?) to take the minions back and forth from the mummy.

Possibilities are limitless, if Anet will move away from trying to make the PvE mobs act like PvP groups.

Woah, a smite monk might actually get a group.

lol, exactly. With our current system, the PvE must match and balance PvP style play through the skill checking, the game can't grow much more. Sure the mobs can be made to act as they are described above, but only in the most dull and boring of encounters as the skills the players are given are for fighting against other level 20 players, not interesting mobs*.
Alter the skill sets of mobs, fix the AI, randomize the spawns and create a dynamic system of quests and spawn locations and all players with a huge varied skill bar can find a place.
Key though, is moving the system away from mobs acting like or playing like poorly coded PvPers and make them act like mobs.
Doing this, the PvEer can equip themselves for an adventure against far more powerful mobs by thinking ahead. The class that is blamed for less brains more brawn, our "tanks" could even be made into a usefull addition to the group by being more than a tank.
A shout that expires after some time, that causes the AI to attack the tank for example; to hold aggro. Or skills that further enhance the warriors vs mob weapons. A warrior with a vs ogre weapon/shield combined with an attack skill that does extra damage to ogres as well, will give cause for some great damage and fun to that warrior. Now do the same to the mobs. Say give a Warden a hammer bash that sends the player sailing out of the aggro circle and falling flat on their butt, dazed. That warden is now something to be carefully watched and considered as a threat.
These skills have no place in PvP at all, but would go miles of improving PvE in both challenge and game play... all the while, PvP remains competitive and a valid game play without getting broken.

Also, take into effect Jack's day and night cycle. With dynamic spawns, when the group enters into a zone and it's "night" perhaps undead and "night time" creatures are there instead of the usual "day" mobs.

Good idea WasAGuest, you are describing some great battles.
But I would keep those more scripted battles as boss battles, found more in the mission and few parts of exploration area, else it still would become "norm".

I still would stress on Mixing-the-Bag and Randomization, especially in exploration area. This way, every mob spawn would be differnt, making it not easy to get by with another walkthrough, but more challenging. (and surely would help kill off some bots) Day-night mob change work along the same vain.

One problem with more special ablity mob, as well as current mobs, is that player tend to lack too much way to counter and react to them. It is due to the fact that we can not change our skills, thus you can not easily react to the situations. Everyone are stuck to one role with the build. Like in case of Troll, seeing how there are group of troll up ahead, you know you want to use fire, but of couse, you usually don't just cary arround any fire damaging skills on you. Thus it would limit all to just weapon change. (and Henchmen need to be smart enough too)

The ablity to change skills while in map (with various restrictions of couse) would partly solve that problem, but will has problem of its own. That suggestion got shutdown by the public already.

Anyhow, lots good idea on how to make mob encounter better. Would surely make it all a much funner game.

(also try not to call me Jack.... AJ is better)

Yea, I meant for those to be "boss battles" I described, with the AI tweaks being as something for all foes.

One thing though, counters to mob unique skills. Consider something as annoying as a "stink bug". Can you counter it releasing it's odor as it's defense in RL? If you squish it, it still stinks, if you annoy it, it's gonna stink, so we generally leave it, like a skunk alone. What about a spider and it's poisonous bite? You can stop the Maguuma spiders from "applying poison", when actually each bite (or shot in their case) should have been poisonous.
Many things in a RL enviroment can not be countered or stopped. Humans just adapt to and adjust to them. For poison, we use antidotes. For our friendly stink bug, we cover our noses or risk gagging (think make casters double spell cast times).
So all things don't always have to have a counter, just something to adapt too.
And since PvE is players vs Enviorment, going that route fully could make for much better eviromental challenges.

*makes mental note: AJ it is*

I know the public doesn't like your idea of changing skills while in a map, but I just have to bring this up.

I used to play EverQuest. That game also had an 8 skill slot limit, however you could change your skills around at any time. Some restrictions though; you had to sit down, effectively not doing anything; you had a book in front of you, so you cannot see what's going on around you while you changed your skills; and each skill would take time to "memorize."

I know, Guild Wars isn't EverQuest, or Wow, or any other game. But really, the ability to change your skills while in a map couldn't be that harmful, could it? Even if it's by a skill-swapper NPC whome you only find standing next to shrines and only allows you to change a couple of skills, that goes a long way to making a person useful when they really don't know what to expect of an area. There is no "meta-game" in PvE; you just have to do a crapload of research on an area before you enter it for the first time, which is just plain silly.

On a note away from AI, skill sets and mob behavior; another way to improve challenge and entertainment would be multiple quest dungeons.

Again, using what GW already has in place, lets put those silly challenge missions to some use with some real content instead of playing pac man (Ruins) or defend the fort (Basin).

First, add something meaningful to the challenge missions. I mention something like this in another thread, but here's where this might work best, tokens or credits. Instead of score for a ladder (yawn), adding something abtainable that can't be gained else where to the challenge missions gives a real reason to go there. Each time you finish a goal in the challenge, you are given a token which, instead of a "records" guy, a merchant is in place that you redeem the tokens too for purchasable goods. More on that later.

Second, make the challenges different each time or dynamic. Before the group starts, the leader talks to the "challenge NPC" and selects from a list of goals (which can be added to through updates later for more and more easy to add content) to take on the challenge. The more one specific goal is taken, the less it pays off to prevent "farming" of specific goals. This would also mean that players will be doing different goals often to keep the rewards paying off well.

Third, it's PvE so mobs are gonna have to drop stuff. Gold, items etc need to be dropped there. No time limits, it's PvE and it's an adventure not a race to the flag holder. Therefore, goals can be to retrieve a certain item, rescue X captives, destroy X mobs, destroy boss X, etc.

Token and the pay off:
Items for these need to vary in value and cost, again the cost being only in tokens earned from the same challenge mission NPC. Items such as:

CC like items
Salvage Kits
ID Kits
Dyes
Unique Weapons, shields that can not be purchased or traded elsewhere
Unique to that challenge NPC armor skins

End thought:

Imagine Dragons Throat as this in play. Instead of just clicking Enter Mission and slaughtering dozens of Afflicted, you talk to an NPC and choose "rescue the homeless". You know from the NPC that there are five homeless hiding throughout the zone(randomly placed). The team heads off to find them and destroy any afflicted that might be in the way. After the mission is completed you are mapped out and the NPC rewards the team for how many homeless survived with tokens.
Now, as a unique reward for this challenge mission, the players can "choose" Plague Born weapons and shields and yes, even Plague Born armor to wear.
Note, this would NOT replace the plague Born item drops from the game, however, it would mean that Plague Born weapons/shield would only drop from this Challenge mission.

thoughts?

To improve the challenge of mainstream PvE, my first suggestions would be to give AI more skills, and make them understand better combos. Too often I see them spamming the same skill, or wanding for ages. Admittedly some enemies such as domination mesmers and communing ritualists have fewer skills that they can use continuously, but that means they're the ones who need the extra skill or two most.

Another idea would be to make mobs spread out more. I know this will not please runners but I dislike how they walk out from a central point, then regroup after a certain amount of time. Get them to patrol on their own while still part of the AI group, or guard a specific point by themselves. When aggroed they could run back a bit to the rest of their group, calling something (the player would see something in All chat - example: Warden of the Spirit: Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!)

Also, as someone has already mentioned, the idea of tanking in PvE needs to be toned down. Warriors should not play the same job as they do in other games. In PvP they are hardly attacked at all; in PvE with a good aggro they're being pummelled constantly. That needs to change. AI aggro needs to be modified.

That's all I can say for now. I'm sure more will pop into my head later.

Modified how though? This suggestion still sounds like attempting to make PvE like PvP, which does not make it more challenging, it makes it boring... not because it's PvP, but because the AI can not simulate a PvP match well at all. Zaishen Challenge for example?

Upping the AI skills and "IQ" would create more need for a warriors ability to hold aggro; however the AI will still need to be upped enough to "know" a ranger is better at plucking a caster than a warrior. So holding agrro becomes part of the challenge for the warrior... otherwise, the improved AI with improved skills would roll over the squishy targets. They are level 28's vs 20's after all and if PvP is too stay the focus of "play" in the AI, then it would be no different than opening the early game arenas to level 20s, so the match has level 12's vs 20 and calling it fun... /ponder

I still hold, the PvP ideal is limiting the PvE game far too much.

That's simply not true. I rarely ever see anyone packing any sort of shutdown in your normal pug. It's all about damage. A single necro with Shadow of Fear and Enfeeble could handle almost every aggro break you would ever get in PvE. But necros don't pack it becuase it's all about arcane echoing spiteful spirit. You just need someone packing physical shutdown to PvE. Like the things I already mentioned wards, hexes, conditions. Seriously, when is the last time you saw a ward in PvE?

For me, it was about 6 months ago. Becuase everyone knows PvE melee mobs can be shutdown completely and totally with a tank. You take such a stupidly effective method away and people adapt. You'll start seeing Wards, Trappers, Illusion Mesmers, Blinding Flash Eles, ect, people actually doing shutdown in PvE instead of focusing on how many little gold numbers they can get to pop up on the mobs clustered around the tank.

Personally, I don't understand how PvE could ever be difficult with a warrior having the ability to hold any kind of aggro. So I'll ask you flat out, there's a question I want you to answer, WasaGuest:

How would PvE ever be difficult if the warrior can hold aggro?

I'd like to hear your ideas.

I think random, unusual mobs are key. A warrior tanks, gets the aggro of mobs. then more mobs drop in from behind him, and starts attacking the backline.

Or how about mobs that are a perfect counter to each profession, and only attack that profession. sorta like fingers of chaos (you would have to have one for each profession for balance, or some profs would never get in a pug.)

I thought it would be hard for warrior to tank group of caster/ranger mobs. Or maybe I just don't have the right built....

Well, they can always give mob some stance breaker or DoP or unblockable attacks if needed (with exisiting skills or mob skills). I don't see it as much of problem as one form os strategy.... assuming more randomize mob and vary mob AI are in place.

Randomize the mob group will make it harder to make a melee mob hunting tanker build, as you might get caster/ranger mob in the group, on random.

2ndly, with differnt mob AI, you will get mob that would react differntly. (actually I think we already have a form of this in game). Like WasAGuess (or was it Undivine?) said, mob should act like how they should.

I would make atleast 3 type:
Beserker: One that keep on attacking and chasing the nearest target no matter what.
Smart: One that would hold their ground, and focus on the weakest/most importat target, and would run if they face danger.
Coward: One that would run away when hp is low.
etc etc.

And adding to that, would also have a commanding mob of the group. So that mob will call target, and attack/pull back depend on situations. But if this commander is taken out, the rest of mob my suffer moral lost, as well as revert back to their orignal less-smart behavior.

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Also adding a bit to mob set up, give some Rez skills, have more non-aggresive mob that only attack when you attack, more "call-help" mobs, see more mob that could have hate against one another, and have a Spawning next type of mob (where it will keep on spawning new mob if not destory, but those new spanw will of couse drop nothing) ... and so on.

Excellent idea! Wow, did I just use an exclamation point? Regardless, this is amazing. You could also take this in another direction too. A generic group can have these types randomized, or even class oriented. Another idea would be making them creature specific. For example, Yeti could generally be Berserkers whereas "smarter" creatures, like the Dwarves, could be the Smart type, with more focus and holding their ground. There's a lot of flexibility with this idea and I honestly think if any, this should be implemented.

I also like the idea of commander. Bosses could be utilized as commanders, or even a higher level monster than the others around it. Kappas from Shing Jea Island come to mind. A single level 6 Kappa is surrounded by 2-3 level 1 Kappas, the level 6 of course, being the commander.

Well tanking has a lot less to do with the way a warrior is set up and lot more to do with the way the monk is setup. If only one person is taking damage and you have a decent protection monk you will not die period. Protection magic becomes much more efficient when only a few people are taking damage and it become insanely efficient when only one person is.

Sorry for the external links, but there are two thread that was related to the Mob AI, if anyone want additional reading.

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...ighlight=enemy

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...ighlight=enemy

the one by salaboB is very good, and just realize that is where I pull alot of stuff from. Pirate be me...

Heres one thing I'd enjoy:

Monster only skills unique to certain species.

I'm talking about every type of mob (am fah, afflicted, etc) need their own skill or ability (I guess afflicted explode but thats not really a skill).

The point of this is making the enemy have a slight advantage over you. Any skill you use, they can use, but not the opposite.

There are a few skills only used by certain species like:

Deafening roar
Turtle Shell
Song of the Mists (kinda I guess)
Fingers of Chaos (more specific to a zone than a creature)
Wurm Siege...
You get the point.

I read this thread and there was many good suggestions. But red line of whole thread was that PvP limits Pve too much. Everything needs to be balanced to PvP but at the end whole PvE expirience became more or less AI PvP experience and if you are not Pvp lover than it just becomes boring.

I agree with QuixotesGhost that tanking should be taken out ( or at least in some measure ). Well right now whole PvE expirience has real PvP taste with it.
As mentioned before try to get smite monk into group, Assasins, Mesmers and so on. These classes just ruin the cookie team builds that you are supposed to have in a group in missions and such. There is no real freedom of playing.. especialy if u want to experience whole game.

Well i had my share of PvE games from Baldurs gates, NWM to Gothics and further on to WoW ( not much wow for reasons discused later on ). But i cant say that any class was more important or stronger than any other. Warrior was just as important as Elementalist or ranger or any other class. What warrior cant do thief step in for example etc.

That would be probably the best thing to do. After that all from the above would kick in from the wards to assasins to beastmastery and smite monks etc.. Prot monk wouldnt be the only protector in the team.

AMEN to that. If we want PvE to be more PvE like than add in all/some the FRP contents into the game. Not just strip off all the cookies we had in FRPs like Lore ( items with lore that u find on mobs ( like in baldurs gate where u knew the history of certain weapon or armor ).

Less mob: They say less is more ( to many same mobs over and over? ) Quantity is not important, but the quality is!

Rewards: OK i must admit that i finished only the quests i needed for experiences ( after lvl 20 I realy didnt have any reason or motivation to.. ) I dont know how can u call few XP points and few golds a reward?
Well how about there would be armor pieces or weapons u get for certain quests u finish ( special looking maybe with certain resistances depending in what kind of mobs u were fighting or what area were u in ). Maybe whole set would add up to the health or energy etc...? just an example it can be something completly different as long it is interesting either for selling or usage.

Character development:
Well there is almost no real FRP Character development ( u earn skill points invest them in and thats it.. change em on occasion ). OK we go titles but what is real purpose of that titles. What about when u earn Treasure hunter titles u get better % chance of magic drops? Or Exploration u have better chance for some special encounter and so on.. u get the point.
You discused some special bug behavior ( like using poison, disease... ) Well I belive alchemist would come handy here with some antidotes ( since character skill bar is limited to 8 skill slots only it might spare you a purge condition slot for something else ). Some other speciall Profesion/crafter would be welcome here.

Night/Day... During the night u could have better chance to sneak around ( mobs would have lower range of vision but would hear better? )


Mob behaviour:
AJ made some good suggestions about mobs ( trolls ), bugs... Well bugs should act like bugs and isects like insects.. When u encounter them they should act with insect AI ( like ants... there r many but weak.. u cant expect the bug to cast on you humanioid spells cmon.. )

one more thing about crafters:
There r many crafters who make the same armors. How about armors where u hunt special creature ( in BG Ankh shell to make light armor with good def. and it looked great also ). I would like to see some special cookies not just grind based armor ( 250 ectoes, shards, whatever for certain armor ) It feels like industrial manufacture of armors. And because of that grinding kicks in.. and not even interesting but boring grinding... over and over untill u loose the interest to play againg for a week or so. Id like to so more interaction with surroundings in explorable areas, not just kill your way through or run x to y. Give me the reason i would like to come back to certain areas for some other purposes than just finishing missions.

Here are just few examples i think would implement PvE. Well nothing new really. Most of them i have seen in other PvE games but some games realy have too much of them. As i stated before Less is more and quality is over quantity. Well i realy miss many of real PvE sugars in GW and i hope we will see some of them in future.
I just want to experience the game with every proffesion but not like watcing the same movie over and over again.. We should have something like class specific ( good example of this is lets say Gothic ) i played it 3 times and each time it was different experience. I hope GW wont turn into "PvP" oriented PvE like Factions.
Let PvE and PvP in GW be totally separated and dont try to join them in same package, because PvE and PvP are totally different worlds.

Sorry for the late answer; connection to the net has been iffy on my end today.

Anyway; in answer to taking away tanking and making PvE more difficult. There's no "flat" answer to this, as the answer comes from:

Are we refering to the sad state PvE is in now? If so, then yea, tanking makes it easy. A tank holds or body blocks the dumb AI and SS wipes them out. We've covered that already.
Or are we talking about improved AI that can tell a difference whether it is in danger or not. Where human "AI" knows before hand that a monk needs to go down first? or a healer in general for that matter.
Removing tanking as it were is a band aid fix for the poor AI and poor state of mobs in PvE now. I'm speaking about fixing and improving the AI's abilities and skill knowledge to not only make tanking a must, but also create situations where the tank is not only the damage sponge, but also ends up relying on not just a monk, but all group members.
I keep seeing "nerfs" as the answer to fixing PvE. Don't nerf a class to add challenge, add to the mobs to add challenge and give the players the ability to adapt.

That was me, but still, PvE needs to move away from making all foes come in balanced groups. Other wise they do act like "human" class characters.

I also completely agree with you on seperating PvE and PvP. They do not mix well at all, and are cramping each other's style.

An exmaple using improved AI with a tank please note, in my idea of improved AI, the mobs are superior to players for the following reasons: The players are in the mobs natural enviroment and mobs are given natural abilities not available to the players - how many humans do we know that can growl and uses claws to defend themselves with - minus sarcastic answers:

Group comes across a group of Wardens. The wardens engage the players. The wardens, being semi-humanoid understand the basic "healing" and "nuke" threat. They also understand that the player charging at them wearing thick armor is a threat to their healer. The warden warriors engage the player warrior just as the player warrior does the same. Warriors on both sides "taunt" (a skill that could be made to "lock" a foes target from changing for X seconds). Now the player warrior and one warden warrior is locked into melee. The other warden warrior "knows" this (improved AI - just as the dragon moss will have one cast blurred vision while the others cast arc lightning) and breaks off from the player warrior to chase down the player monk. The warden rangers have already started to fire at the monk and "nukers".
Other classes on the players side could include an assassin that shadowsteps to engage the wardens rit, or a mesmer using interupts... the list could go on.

See the Chkkr example above in how the "bug" AI could react to the player group.

Keeping tanking in, with these examples does not make them easier, but gives the warrior a task of protection from at least one mob. However, by removing tanking in general means making the warrior less useful of turns it into nothing more than a must take axe spiker, or knock down hammer hitter. If, Anet would go about making the mob understand that doing 10 damage to a target is not so great, and then make that same mob change targets to do more damage, we would have a great solution with a "need" for a warriors' skill in tanking and aggro control.

The basic idea is, to make the AI understand a threat and react given some delay to make them seem alive and not super human; while adding skills and abilities that make them unique. Remember also, that the AI still does not understand a lava font with 0 damage is not hurting it, yet it still runs away.

Lastly, and maybe it's just me. But I don't see anything good coming about taking tanking out. As you said, I see lots of "shut downs" and ward users popping up. At the same time I see lots of that in PvP when I watch the observer mode, it doesn't look fun, it doesn't look enjoyable and it looks like a very boring swing and miss battle where the combat lasts far to long to be entertaining.
EQ had (has maybe, haven't played in years) battles that lasted a good long while and required some really good crowd control from enchanters and aggro control from the tanks. Those battles were anything but easy. Maybe then, powering up the Mobs to extreme amounts of health and adding new skills of "lock down" or "shut down" to take one at a time is what many players are wanting... a guess on my part...?

Anyway, hopefull I explained that well enough. If not, let me know.

Edit:

I'm confused by this comment. I said with Improved AI; which we do not have yet. You state it's not true as you rarely see anyone packing... of course you don't see that now as we do not have improved AI.

I think should seperate this spotlight concept, ideas to improve to PvE are just too many. Maybe should re-lable this sticky to focus on the topic of improving mob?

Anyhow, the bug-like-bug was WasAGuest, and troll was from salaboB, so give credit to them.

Anyhow.. maybe I will bump few of my other threads later. I still enjoy my Journal into New Land...

I like the idea of fewer, but more interesting, more intellegent AI. What about giving some of the mobs secondary professions? And not allowing humanoid mobs to be over level 20. I understand how a lot of people seem to think that PVE is too easy. However since I am still trying to get masters from vizunah on my necro, I cant think of anything else that might make it better. Masters for Vizunah is tough. I don't want the rest of the missions to be this hard.

Well, I stand by the topic. I like how it is developing, but really, challenge in PvE doesn't have to be just about mobs. I think if we only focused on the mobs, this topic would eventually become stale too quickly.

I really like this idea. That was one fun thing about Baldur's Gate, which was one of the best RPGs I've ever played.

This approach to equipment is not dissimilar to what EverQuest had with its "Epic Weapons." The gist of it: every class had an epic weapon, which was pretty much the ultimate weapon one could have for their class. To get these weapons it would take you weeks. You had to hunt down monster A in this continent, learn trade skill X and craft item B from rare ingredients S and T, do quest P and turn in for reward Q, so on so forth and gather all these components and finally turn them in for your reward. It wasn't farming for hundreds of ectos. It wasn't farming for gold to buy the proper materials. You just had to collect and aquire things from various sources, which essentially meant you had to go on various adventures.

I think GW would be immensely more interesting if armor (or even collectors items or greens, or better yet, all equipment) were aquired in this fashion, though on a smaller scale. The very idea of the collectors suggests farming. The very idea of Obsidian Armour just screams farming. I would far rather be rewarded for accomplishing various tasks, than just the same task over and over again.

For example: say there's this green recurve bow I want that's just perfect for my quickshot build. To get it I have to talk to an NPC who needs 3 things to craft it for me. 1 of those things I get as a reward for reaching a certain score in Altruum Ruins. Another I get as a drop from a boss in Melandru's Hope. And the final piece I get as a reward from doing the Wardens On The March quest. Throw in a common feather for good measure and a couple planks of wood and he'll make a nice bow for me.

It would probably be even more interesting when you consider all the different locales you can quest in on Tyria. Collect something from Sorrow's Furnace while you're doing the slave quest, get a special kind of wood which is simply lying on the ground in the middle of The Falls in Maguuma Jungle, etc. In fact, they can even make it kind of a riddle. "Collect the dust of the fallen innocent." So off you go to get Althea's Ashes. And this way they can encourage people to actually visit and do these things so we have more than those sodding "LFG 5 man Oro farm" people in the war camp.

That would make it far less bland.

Here i would like to add that pieces needed for crafting ( pieces from bosses ) shouldnt be tradable and u could obtain them only threw quest.. Otherwise there will be farmers all over the place trading this pieces and whole thing will become stale as it is now.
I would also add that its ok if there is one serial armor for each class but others pieces of armors should be gained like mentioned above.
I think it would bring u back to certain areas to explore em more and not like at the momeent where game is based on linear way - rush to the end scenario. And i dont think with quest and tasks like this there wouldnt be so many abandoned and empty outposts.


I apologize I gave credit to wrong person. AJ cleared that up so there should be no confusion now.

2 more cents about char. developing:

Right now trade is big issue in GW.. unbalanced economy, spamming allover the channels etc... I think good implementation in chaacter development would be Perks..
Dunno how many of u played Fallout ( 1,2 ) but there you could develope certain perks and skills.. one hander, barter, sniper, sneak, melee combat...
I think some of this we could implement in GW char development like Barter to get better price with merchants so auction houses really wouldnt be needed especialy if merchants would give u better prices and u could even barter for even better ones.

Well ofcourse we could use other perks like that as well ( 2 handed weapons( bows, hammers, Scyth ), critical dmg ( with asasins ), finesse, and some other original perks for other characters.

Your thoughts?

For fear of offending all the PvE'ers in this game:

Make PvE interesting by throwing it away completely. Make advancing through the storyline happen only after you beat another human team. Similarly, make PvP count towards PvE (i.e trading Balthazar faction for money) and vice versa.