[Spotlight Concept #4] Improve the Challenge of PvE

Hello folks. It is once again time for another Spotlight Concept. I'll be your master of ceremonies, Undivine. King Symeon has been extremely busy with his life (lucky sod... having a life), so I'm stepping up to the plate.

As you know, our spotlights so far have centered around new god realms - the equivalent to Fissure of Woe, except for the other 3 gods (or goddesses as the case may be). Our last one was Melandru's Realm. However, I'm sure it will come as no surprise that we are not continuing that trend. Time for something new and fresh.

So here goes it. I pose this question to all of you: How can we raise the challenge in PvE?

Now when I say "challenge" I don't mean higher hit points on our monsters. What I mean is having PvE require more skill or perhaps even something besides combat. Let us hear your ideas on how we can make PvE more fun. Should it have more interactive quests? Should it have some level of randomness? Should it rely more on monster-only skills? Tougher monster builds? Mazes? Puzzles? Newer and more interesting challenges that may or may not be combat related?

Some things to keep in mind however: This thread is NOT intended for new skill ideas, new concept classes, or anything of that nature. The focus is on the challenges we will face in PvE. As for you PvPers, you will eventually get your turn, so don't fret. Furthermore, try to make suggestions that are feasible for ArenaNet to Implement.

Happy posting!

There are almost endless ways to make PvE more challenging, but seeing as how the last time i posted in one of these, it went for 5 pages, I'll try to limit it this time around. The heart of the challenge in PvE will come from:
1) Variation
2) Semi-Consistant level of Challenge

Its kinda wierd to have the words Variation and Consistant sitting right next to each other, and being used to describe the same thing at that. Huh.
Variation, it keeps things new, keeps the player guessing. It makes you think on your feet, not only adding a level of urgency, but forcing faster reactions. Part of the reason I think T-Head was so hard for people the first time around, was simply because of the curveball it through at you. You couldnt win because you had the bigged sword or the most explosive nukes. It was a new element. The Prophecies campaign didnt throw too many different concepts at us, just had us do the same BASIC thing with small changes to the overall theme. So in Thunderhead, when we were stuck in this fort, with powerful enemy forces outside, and given resources to use to defend it (catapults), some people didnt understand the concept of defence, since up to that point, it had been almost entirly: "Kill your way to Point X, Kill your way to Point Y, Kill boss Z. You win." This would be why the mission always seemed easier with henchies. They dont have a problem with the variation, like humans do.
So, we need variation. What kind of variation? Take all the missions that you've been given so far, and think how you could do the same basic objective, a different way. The Deep was one that mixed things up. Splitting up the party required a level of on-the-spot coordination that most of the rest of the game didnt ask for. We need new ideas inmplimented into the already existing world correctly. That will be the first step to making PvE harder.

Step 2, Consistancy in Difficulty.

First, for those of you who've finished both games, think about the final boss fights. In my mind at least, one was far too easy, and one was just annoying. We had the Lich King, who really didn't pose too much of a challenge, simply because you had one target to focus on, and no other outlet for damage. But the hell he was annoying, because as soon as he's about to dye, he just decides to walk off the freaking bloodstone. oh joy. kill him again.
And in the other corner we have shiro, who was, in my mind, utterly pathetic. no exception. my party killed him in 2 min with no casulties, and not even a high level of damage on any one player. Raisu Palace on the other hand, had a cruel streak, simply because it took party coordination. you had to think about which henchies to bring, how it would effect the level, and then how your party would deal with the other areas. Right there, thats variation. that and the fact that the level itself was relativly hard created a good experience. But then you go on to fight Shiro, and 2 min later you're all "WTF? That's Shiro? ZOMFG! ROFL!"

So thats my 2 cents. Mix things up and make the difficulty level easier at the beginning, and harder at the end. Please dont make the final boss too easy. Please?

My thought goes the same as Undivine.

Here are some list...

- More Randomize Mob and Events
- Less Mob (too many make it boring), but more Interactive and Interesting
- More Rewards to "special deeds", like in-map power ups
- More Immersing and Interactive Enviorment
- More repeatable exploration quest
- More Lores and RP stuff
- More Character Development
- Day&Night/Weather/Enviromental Effect

To expand on your day/night/weather thing, ActionJack, I always thought Riverside Province was a somewhat interesting mission because you are sneaking around. The night was just ambiance, but the idea of it was different from the usual hack 'n slash.


As for weather, environmental effects that one can actually take advantage of would be really cool. Say, in rain the ground gets muddy and everyone's running is reduced by 15%, including the enemies. So you plan for ranged attacks and snaring tactics. That sort of thing.

In fact, they already have environmental effects, but the enemies aren't affected by them. I don't really see the point of that. That spikey coral is just a minor annoyance, where it could have been an interesting tactic twist.

For PvE to truely become a challenge many things really need to change or be re-worked.

Not saying skill builds or new skills as requested above, but new skills that would do little or nothing in PvP are desperatly needed for some added challenge or simple enhancement.
Warrior Taunt for example, or a Charm spell that turns friend against foe. Spells that cause insanity causing the player or mob to randomly attack anyone and use skills/spells wildly and without reason. Many of these things will never come to pass as long as they have no place in PvP, but in PvE they would add a great deal of needed challenge and change.

More dynamic quests and challenges:
Having some quest giver give out a randomly chosen "seek out item/person", or "destroy X number of X creature" for your reward.
Having mobs spawn in a zone randomly would further add something more dynamic to the game.

Mobs acting like mobs:
This is such an easy one to fix. Bugs should act like bugs. Bugs should not act like Jade Brotherhood and an Am Fah mixture. the Bugs in echovald are nothing but the same exact mobs we fought through in the slums of Cantha, they are just wearing a new skin. Once you learn how to beat the Jade and Am Fah, you pretty know what to expect through out the rest of Factions.
The bugs, should have been made to act like bugs. Imagine having the Mantid assassins come up from the ground (like those annoying "roaches" in Proph) 12 thick. They fall very fast, yet do massive damage in great numbers... as bugs should do (ever seen ants take down an animal?). The Bugs would have been a lot more challenging had they been made like bugs.
Further, "humanoid" mobs shuold be fewer in number, yet far more powerful than they are now, and in fewer numbers. In Factions right now, we come across Jade, Am Fah, Wardens, etc. Each group is almost to the letter, the same exact one we fought two steps back. So it's the same fight again, and again, and again, and....
A great deal of improvement would have been to space out the "balanced" groups and throw more "bugs" in for variation.

Mob only skills:
Throwing in mob only skills with the above mentioned fixes would have been very nice. Imagine the warden "clubber" having a skill that when it hits you, you get knocked back a good ten feet unless countering it with say Balanced Stance or something. This would give cause for the warrior to hold aggro with a taunt else the back line gets destroyed.

Fix the AI:
This alone will go a great way to adding more challenge to PvE. First, fix the henchies to act half as smart as the mobs are now. Anet can then go about fixing the mobs to act like they should instead of "fool" fodder.
AoE "fix" still needs "fixing". If I can cast a zero damage AoE and cause the mob AI to flee from me, though they are not taking any damage at all, something needs reworking.

Other things have already been mentioned above, so I'll leave those to those posts.

The whole concept of "Tanking" needs to be thrown right out the window. It breaks PvE, leads to the same builds, and makes it too damn easy. It also makes it so there's no need for disruption. Leaving mesmers unable to get a group and rangers almost all universally packing "Barrage" as an elite. Take "tanking" out and you'll get much more diversified builds in PvE. You can do this by...

Buffing Monster AI, AI needs to start acting like PVP players, there we always be skills broken in PvP or PvE if you don't do this. Spiteful Spirit and Fire Magic in general are huge examples of this.

We also need to have monk mobs that are at least as good as the healer henchies and put them in far more locations.

Also, monster skills are very cool, they need to put more of them in more places. Think of the "OMGWTF!" your group got first time you ran into a Fire Djinn. They need more monsters that give you the "OMGWTF!" effect.

Interesting. I don't see how having the exact same mobs acting like PvPers would be any fun at all, when GW PvP is amoung the most boring possible PvP I have ever played. It's the exact same thing over and over again. Similar to fighting the Jade Brotherhood now. I see a knight, and I know what he will do, I know what he will likely be followed by (rit, ele and mesmer). In PvP, I see a warrior carrying an axe and can prety much tell what he will be doing. See a monk, same thing. By removing the PvE boundries on mobs and players, Anet can come up with more creative skills and abilities to use without upsetting PvP.
I am also curious how removing the warriors role in PvE would make it more challenging. Maybe it would now, but I think the thread is to improve PvE, not make it a PvP clone vs AI. We have that now in Zaishen Challenge, and it's not just bad, but horrid.
Besides, I think many PvEers are looking for some adventure and challenge in the PvE game, not a Quake clone where we fight AI designed for PvP arena play.
Could you explain how your suggestions would improve PvE while not making it PvP vs AI on a wide scale? Seriously curious.

they really do need to add surprises in the PvE style. there are posts online to tell you exactly what to do in EVERY area in the game. cause mobs dont change. that i think is the main thing that needs to be changed. i could print out 40 pages off the internet and NEVER have to think in the GW would ever again. also in response to Guest's talk about all of them acting the same in PvP i say AMEN to that! PvE needs to be diverse not same old same old like in PvE. if they made us wonder what a mob was going to do as apposed to seeing a monk and go o well duh hes a healer or o hes a prot. change it up. the easiest way i found to kill warriors and whole groups of people in say aspenwood would be to go in as my monk and set up for smite. it was great to have a warrior run up to me thinking i was a lowly healer and then get his ass kicked before he could even type "wtf???" whihc many of them did waiting to respawn i might add. if there was more variety like that i think PvE would be a WHOLE lot more challenging.

*edit*
LMAO did i just hear someone utter the words"at least as good as healer henchies" im pretty sure that would actually be a downgrade for most mobs imho

WasAGuest, you make a good point on the PvE enemies all running off the same script with different skills. I wish they would actually make the enemies behave more like their characters. I mean, why do I see brainless insectoid creatures casting highly intelligent mesmer spells? Instead of fighting Chkkr, I'm really just fighting Mesmer, Ele, Assassin, Monk.

Perhaps some monsters out there shouldn't even have a class. They should change the icon of monster skills so that there's an icon for monster skill spells, monster skill stances, monster skill glyphs, etc. so that they're easily discernable, then just roll with it and go crazy with monster skills. The only problem I could see is with spells like Arcane Thievery (one of my favorites), which don't work against monster spells.

That, and tweaking the AI so their behaviour is more authentic.

PvE was relative boring (or atleast could be better) for several reasons. I would contribute it to two major factors, 1) lack of things to do and 2) hords of ever-same mob that offer little excitment.
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I will go off on 2 for now as part of continuation off Undivine the Candian and WasAGuest.

I agree on making the mob more varity, and more interesting to face, which challenge player to utilize more stratgies. For most part (when playing solo with the Henchies), when face mobs, the best you can do is just to divid a bigger group of mob, and just click and go at it, trying to take down the most desirble target first, than the less threaten target. When face with a same or similar group (which happen alot in a map), your action pretty much is the same. Grouping with humans, while offer better cordernation of attack, still remain much the same.

So how to make that more challenging and fun?

For one, make less mob, for more just mean more grind through, and create a boring gameplay. But need also to make them more interesting, to create "memorible moments".

I don't agree with taking the class out of mob. I do agree on giving mob more inherent ablity and weakness. Like a Troll. Instead the need to cast Troll Urgent, they should already have it on all the time. But also make them weaker to fire and burn longer. Things like that. It would help give mob more personality, making them stronger to some attack, while weaker to another, and thus make certain change to attacking stategy more visible.

Another is the need for more random mob placement. Think like the classic PRG with the landmine mob encounters. What you face (spawn differntly with each instantce of map) will be differnt group of mobs. This create interesting dynmatics, especially if they are spawn close to one another.

Day and Night, should such thing be added, could play a factor as well, in allowing certain type of mob to appear on in certain time. A map with lots Devour in day could turn into lots undead at night.

And adding to mob behanviour, I hope to see them not just stand around patroling all the time. Instead, you might walk into a troll cave (befoe you aggro them) and found them huddle together eating... or see group of griffin sleeping, and such. Seeing them go about their "daily bussiness" add more personality,a nd make the more belivible as a creature of the world, and not just obstacle put in your way. Also I would hope to see more Mob on Mob actions... where you can even lead one mob to attack another, and take advantage there.

(NOTE: most of those are meant for changes to the exploration area, and not the mission area. Missions should still remain tightly scripted and in its own timezone/weather)

Well, thats some of my suggestions on that topic.

a lot of good points jack i like your troll-like idea. only thing i saw wrong with your world is the night and day thing. as much as i would LOVE it...i think with all the timezones actually haveing it make a difference would be...difficult. cause even though there are diffenent servers for different parts of the world even within a server theres what a 6 hour time difference.(sorry i dont do geography) anyway i really dont wanna be playing in the dark when i get home from school

Time zone will not be real time. Will say have a rotating day/night every 3.5 hour. That means you are not going to be lock to one time zone when you play. So for example, if you play every day at 5pm, at that time, it would be day, day, night night, day, day, night... and so on for the week. Thus you can always experience differnt in-game day and night.

damn reallt thought this out havent you lol. that sounds like a great system actually. i like the way you think lol

More little puzzles like the teleports in the desert area in prophecies. When I first saw them I had no idea what i was supposed to do with them. Out of all the rpg games ive ever played this has the least amount of puzzles. (Maybe its an online thing, this is my first online game)

Less mobs but with better skills in those mobs. More variety in them too. Giving them secondary profesions would be good too in some areas. Gives the possibility for more variety.

More random mobs.
Moving mobs. Instead of staying in one place they can patrol a large designated area.

Well, we all know that ANet balances for skills for the PvP enviroment first and foremost. Spiteful Spirit is a great example of this. In PvP Spiteful Spirit isn't overpowering at all becuase most players are smart enough not to swing through it, it just shuts down a warrior for the duration of the hex. In PvE it totally overpowers everything becuase mobs cluster around the warrior and stupidly swing through it until they kill themselves and thier group.

If you had those PvE mobs behave more like thier PvP counterparts (i.e. not swing through it) then the skill would not make PvE rediculously easy.

Also, Let's look at how "Tanking" shuts out a lot of builds. With "Tanking" you can mitigate a huge amount of damage that gets to your group by manipulating enemy AI to focus on a guy built totally for self defense who is then protted by the monk. This completely kills the need for any sort of character that focuses on defensive disruption. A necro that packs things like Shadow of Fear and Enfeebling Blood (you know instead of Arcaned Echoed Spiteful) an Elementalist with Wards, Ritualists with Shadowsong, Ineptitude Mesmers ect so and and so forth. Any number of builds that can shut down melee just aren't needed or called for becuase the AI of mobs are too stupid to hit a meaningful target.

Plus do away with "Tanking" and OMG! Assasins have a place in PvE groups again. Seriously there are a ton of builds in PvE that you can't just run in PvE without pissing someone off becuase you might upset the precious aggro of the tank. My Oath Shot Trapper is a prime example. Think of Beastmasters for Christ's Sake! An entire Ranger attribute line!

Not removing it, just changing it. If mobs no longer cluster around the same guy like an idiot, then a much lower premium gets put on AoE damage and a higher one gets put on single target damage. Who has the best single target damage of any class in the game? That's right , the Warrior.

Take us away from mob killing. Forcing players to split up across the whole map will be a cool feature to see.

I gotta admit Shiro's banishment ability was pretty cool.

Thanks for explaining QuixotesGhost. That makes more since now. I agree, spells like SS, which my necro uses very often and as a back bone of the build, does make some foes far too easy. So I agree with the idea it should stop "some" foes from attacking through or reacting all together.

Here's a question for all:

Which would be more interesting to play against in PvE:

1) All foes instantly reacting to what the player does, or instantly reacting to it's inviroment:
Staying with what we have discussed so far; A) a "bug" with no idea what SS is, instantly stops attacking the second it is hit with SS, or B) a swarm of bugs with no idea what SS is and become enraged (giving them higher resistance to damage and gaining a higher natural regen) when hexed or hurt?

2) Anet moving towards making mobs in PvE unique and reacting differently to situations as well as their ability to use their skills.
A) The troll as Jack mentioned is given faster or "smarter" reactions to the players' skills/spells so that it acts like the human warrior you fought just three zones back giving it a harder challenge; or B) the troll is given a natural always on Trolls Unguent and a resistance to all damage from all but fire based weapons and attacks, with the knowledge that it fears nothing but fire.

3) Giving mobs more power with even the players' skill sets:
A) A mob that has unlimited energy, can instantly interupt anything the player tries to do, understands what the player is doing and knows what a monk is, even if it's a "dumb bug", or B) Give the mobs personality and uniqueness that makes them dangerous in thei own right. For example, a "bug" with a Conjure Phatasm like spell, but instead hits all group members within range at the same time would be far more deadly and difficult (as well as giving the players the "WHOA!" reaction than a bug with instant interupt abilities.

Note: Some changes to the PVE game would indeed make it easier at first. Anet would have to go through and alter the AI and abilities of foes. The goal of course is, more difficult mobs via challenge and test of players' skill. Not their ability to make a build. Making PvE more dynamic and mobs with superior abilities, not reactions (as PvP is won by) would go a long way into improving PvE.

Imagine Chkkr as a bug rather than a mesmer. Chkkr is standing all alone drinking from the stream. Here come the players and attack it. Chkkr uses his AoE in defence which gives all players in range Conjure Phantasm, it then "distorts" itself while using his ability to call for help. If the players don't stop the call, a swarm of bugs drop around him and attack the players. The players are now forced to work on the new swarm, or continue trying to hit Chkkr who is constantly trying to stay distorted while attacking with it's ability to give all in range Conjure Phantasm. If the players wipe out the swarm, Chkkr calls for more help and repeats untill it is dead.
Chkkr is not a "caster" so backfire and the like will not stop his call or spread of Conjure Phantasm as it is an ability, not a spell.
The players will have to adapt to different tactics to defeat mobs rather than bringing the typical build.

Lastly, imagine a new undead foe, a mummy. Ancient and powerful. Highly resistant to all forms of damage, even fire. It is a magical creature to begin with so it is given some very unique abilities. One such ability, to take control of all undead minions within it's radius. It then turns all minions into vampiric minions and in so doing contantly heals itself as they attack. It can also raise minions instantly, it is an ancient undead after all and should have some better understanding of death than even a necromancer. Death and decay surround it, so even getting close causes the players to get diseased.
It's weakness; it can not be healed from other sources other than it's minions. It has no natural regen, spells or energy. Would it be beatable? Sure, just kill it's minions first and keep corpses blown. MM can use Veratas (sp?) to take the minions back and forth from the mummy.

Possibilities are limitless, if Anet will move away from trying to make the PvE mobs act like PvP groups.

Woah, a smite monk might actually get a group.

lol, exactly. With our current system, the PvE must match and balance PvP style play through the skill checking, the game can't grow much more. Sure the mobs can be made to act as they are described above, but only in the most dull and boring of encounters as the skills the players are given are for fighting against other level 20 players, not interesting mobs*.
Alter the skill sets of mobs, fix the AI, randomize the spawns and create a dynamic system of quests and spawn locations and all players with a huge varied skill bar can find a place.
Key though, is moving the system away from mobs acting like or playing like poorly coded PvPers and make them act like mobs.
Doing this, the PvEer can equip themselves for an adventure against far more powerful mobs by thinking ahead. The class that is blamed for less brains more brawn, our "tanks" could even be made into a usefull addition to the group by being more than a tank.
A shout that expires after some time, that causes the AI to attack the tank for example; to hold aggro. Or skills that further enhance the warriors vs mob weapons. A warrior with a vs ogre weapon/shield combined with an attack skill that does extra damage to ogres as well, will give cause for some great damage and fun to that warrior. Now do the same to the mobs. Say give a Warden a hammer bash that sends the player sailing out of the aggro circle and falling flat on their butt, dazed. That warden is now something to be carefully watched and considered as a threat.
These skills have no place in PvP at all, but would go miles of improving PvE in both challenge and game play... all the while, PvP remains competitive and a valid game play without getting broken.

Also, take into effect Jack's day and night cycle. With dynamic spawns, when the group enters into a zone and it's "night" perhaps undead and "night time" creatures are there instead of the usual "day" mobs.