I really doubt paragon will be able to work without it's weapon and weapon attribute, much like assassin. Supposedly paragon has plenty of support, but I really don't see it as a no damage support character.
Command, for instance, is a crazy attribute, much like deadly arts. It goes in all directions, pretty much guaranteeing that no matter what team you pair it with, you won't be able to utilize more than 2 skills out of it, which in turn makes it a secondary paragon attribute. For instance we have skills that boost mobility and we have skills that give armor when standing still. Obviously you won't use both, you will use one of them depending on the style of your team build. Also bunch of unique ones like boosting the rez.
Also we have skills that activate on attack skills and skills that activate on spells or even rarer skills like shouts and chants.
Leadership continues this in pretty much the same fashion. The trigger conditions on chants penalize balanced teams and give rise to gimmick teams. To get the most out of most chants you need either a caster heavy team(like caster spike) or attacker heavy teams(like ranger spike or iway). I don't know if this was the intention. Anyway result is that leadership and command combined IMO don't form enough support to make a 0 DPS character out of it, you'd need at least some spear damage to go with it.
Motivation is a whole attribute of energy and heals and is the strongest of the 3 support attributes. For instance Anthem of Flame does 42 damage per attacker maxed and Aria of restoration heals around 100 HP maxed, which clearly puts Paragon as better defensive support than offensive support.
It is basically a hybrid between healing ritualist and heal party spamming E/Mo(except that heal party covers 9 times larger area at least).
Add to these things, that the best elite is in spear mastery(stunning strike). Cautery signet is nerfed martyr(cast times, recharge times), "it;s just a flesh wound" is a nerfed Restore Conditions or elited Draw Conditions, "Incoming" which is nice but most spikes have shorter recharge, Angelic bond, which is like nerfed Life Barrier(Life Barrier makes half of damage disappear, with angelic bond the damage is still the same teamwise and with 10 energy a pop, I see this as something used on class with 4 regen not 2 regen).
Additionally the energy engine of class, Leadership attribute, doesn't work with skills that are echos or just skill. Also many shouts are single target netting you 1 energy back. This makes it a necessity to use adrenaline skills, most of which are, surprise surprise, spear skills.
A lot of people have seen the overpoweredness of paragon in preview and most of it came from spears having too fast attack rate and rangers abusing the short recharge on spear of lightning combined with expertise and 1 extra energy pip. Which once again proves that spear mastery is where the power is not other attributes.
What I'd hate to see is Paragon turning out like another Ritualist or Assassin where, in GvG builds, 5 or 6 skills are always the same and attributes are always communing/spawning power and daggers 14/criticals 13/shadow arts 9. I know I am late, release looming close, but I wanted to voice my concerns and see what's other people's take on this matter. Do you think Paragon is doomed to be spear chunker with some tertiary healing?
Will Paragon be able to exist without a spear?
Spura
Knightsaber Sith
Just from reading your first paragraph about Paragons not being able to function without their spear/spear mastery attribute I'll point out that spear mastery is not the paragons primary attribute so secondary Paragons can use spears too. Or maybe that doesn't matter, I think I'm missing the point you're getting at....
Edit* had to read back through that hefty post a few times. I would say the Paragon will primarily focus on dmg and a tiny bit of support on the side. But frankly that's what I thought they would be from the beginning, is that really so bad?
Edit* had to read back through that hefty post a few times. I would say the Paragon will primarily focus on dmg and a tiny bit of support on the side. But frankly that's what I thought they would be from the beginning, is that really so bad?
Big_Iron
Spear or no spear. My initial impression is, much like the Mesmer in Prophecies and the Assassin in Factions, the Paragon will be the "red headed stepchild" of Nightfall. I played both new professions during the sneak preview and the Dervish was MUCH more fun to play. But it's really too early to make such a call. We'll know more after the next sneak preview.
lyra_song
Like the other two non-core proffessions, the Assassin and the Ritualist, the new professions will be "specialists" as Anet calls them.
Unlike the core 6, who have more varied uses.
Unlike the core 6, who have more varied uses.
Ellipson
Song of Concentration will, in itself, force a change in standard character builds in halls. (Assuming it works on Capture Resource: am I right?)
EDIT: I originally said "Metagame Shift," which implies that 1, HA has a metagame, and 2, entire builds would change, which wouldn't happen. Really meant to say that good teams won't leave home without it.
EDIT: I originally said "Metagame Shift," which implies that 1, HA has a metagame, and 2, entire builds would change, which wouldn't happen. Really meant to say that good teams won't leave home without it.
Mordakai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith
Edit* had to read back through that hefty post a few times. I would say the Paragon will primarily focus on dmg and a tiny bit of support on the side. But frankly that's what I thought they would be from the beginning, is that really so bad?
I agree. Much like the warrior, you won't see many builds without Weapon being the "primary" attribute (not literally, but practically).
The interesting question about the Paragon is how useful the primary will be, if it actually gives enough energy that secondaries could be more varied than Warriors... ie, Paragon/Eles that actually use offensive spells, although that would stretch the attributes.
The other possibility (depending on Energy return), is "melee" spellcasters picking Paragon because of the armor. This is the first non-core Prof with 80 armor, correct? I'm sure people will make use of that fact.
EDIT: where can I find a list of the Paragon / Dervish skills we know of so far?
The interesting question about the Paragon is how useful the primary will be, if it actually gives enough energy that secondaries could be more varied than Warriors... ie, Paragon/Eles that actually use offensive spells, although that would stretch the attributes.
The other possibility (depending on Energy return), is "melee" spellcasters picking Paragon because of the armor. This is the first non-core Prof with 80 armor, correct? I'm sure people will make use of that fact.
EDIT: where can I find a list of the Paragon / Dervish skills we know of so far?
fallot
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodyDotNet
Spear or no spear. My initial impression is, much like the Mesmer in Prophecies and the Assassin in Factions, the Paragon will be the "red headed stepchild" of Nightfall.
More like the ranger perhaps, where people are not quite sure of their role. You can't go very wrong with a 96 armor ranged character though (while pugging that is).
Knightsaber Sith
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai
EDIT: where can I find a list of the Paragon / Dervish skills we know of so far?
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Paragon...uick_reference
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Dervish...uick_reference
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Dervish...uick_reference
Guardian of the Light
I'm thinking myself of a paragon build that could replace an RC monk.
Also Mybe paragons could use Warrior weapons and go into the front lines.
Also Mybe paragons could use Warrior weapons and go into the front lines.
Big_Iron
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallot
More like the ranger perhaps, where people are not quite sure of their role. You can't go very wrong with a 96 armor ranged character though (while pugging that is).
Good point.
Mordakai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light
I'm thinking myself of a paragon build that could replace an RC monk.
Also Mybe paragons could use Warrior weapons and go into the front lines. Unless your playing a Warrior build with a lot of energy attacks, I don't see why you would do this.
The max you'd have in your weapon would be 12.
However, I can see P/W with Frenzy, or P/R with Tiger's Fury, to speed up that spear attack.
Also Mybe paragons could use Warrior weapons and go into the front lines. Unless your playing a Warrior build with a lot of energy attacks, I don't see why you would do this.
The max you'd have in your weapon would be 12.
However, I can see P/W with Frenzy, or P/R with Tiger's Fury, to speed up that spear attack.
LifeInfusion
OP, a paragon can exist without a spear. Only spear mastery requires a spear.
Another thing is the paragon fills the holes of the ritualist and monk (more offensiv ein nature but it is still support). There are many support skills that buff the party or prevent things like interrupt/blocking/evasion.
Mordakai, I wouldn't recommend using Paragon with a secondary that is energy intensive as it only has 2 pips of energy like warriors, even with the primary attribute giving you energy.
Another thing is the paragon fills the holes of the ritualist and monk (more offensiv ein nature but it is still support). There are many support skills that buff the party or prevent things like interrupt/blocking/evasion.
Mordakai, I wouldn't recommend using Paragon with a secondary that is energy intensive as it only has 2 pips of energy like warriors, even with the primary attribute giving you energy.
Spura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith
Quote: Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light I'm thinking myself of a paragon build that could replace an RC monk.
Also Mybe paragons could use Warrior weapons and go into the front lines. Why would they do that, as you can probably be better with 16 spear that 12 axe or whatever. Also RC does a hefty heal when it removes conditions and "It's just a flesh wound" just removes them while also having longer recharge and can't target self. A lot of support skills are target other so you need that same functionality duplicated somewhere on the team. I can't see paragon doing better than RC monk. Which is exactly what I'm arguing. That support capabilities of paragon are either all over the place and in favor of builds with lots of same type of characters or in case of motivation, outshined by monk and elementalist capabilities, making no sense for such a character to be on the team. Except if it delivers good DPS too, that is. And that is why I say spear will obviously be a must.
Point in Case:
Quote:
But, I think the OPs point is, are their enough skills to justify making a Paragon primary for support? Or will effective Paragon's be the ones with Spear of 16, and then a few support skills?|
Originally Posted by Mordakai
Unless your playing a Warrior build with a lot of energy attacks, I don't see why you would do this.
The max you'd have in your weapon would be 12. However, I can see P/W with Frenzy, or P/R with Tiger's Fury, to speed up that spear attack. As you can see, this is exactly what I've been saying. People think "how can we boost that delicious spear attacks" and go into secondary to do it. Which proves my point, that other attributes don't offer enough to really make this class a support one, like tainted flesh necro. Even ranger class non-bow variants: trapper or pet. This is what I am getting at. For a "Battle Commander" character, paragon does too little commanding and too much battling. At least effective commanding that is. Plenty of skills there to do commanding but they really are not up to snuff when put side by side with spear.
unholy guardian
I personally plan to not really use a spear unless it's requested, or if im helping a buddy who is still really low level and monsters drop in 3 hits.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
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Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
Mordakai, I wouldn't recommend using Paragon with a secondary that is energy intensive as it only has 2 pips of energy like warriors, even with the primary attribute giving you energy.
That's what I was afraid of. I was hoping for a more versatile profession.
Doikor
A lot of paragon skills need adrenaline. So you need a ranged weapon so why not go with spear? (its faster then bow and you can take a off-hand item...)
Clawdius_Talonious
Anyone who honestly believes that any class in this game cannot have effective builds utilizing only one attribute from it's primary class is an idiot. You will see many W/P and P/W, and after awhile some really nice builds will be used for them.
The beauty of this game is the strategy that goes into builds. You say Assassin has to use Dagger to be effective? You're truely a fool if you believe that, an Assassin primary can use other weapons and still be quite effective. Of course, you can't use dagger skills without daggers but I mean seriously... This to me, is like saying "Warrior is useless without Sword" or "Ranger sucks without a bow" they're generalizations that not only make little sense, but also show that you just haven't put enough thought into the skill combos in this game.
Mordakai
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Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious
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Quote:
This to me, is like saying "Warrior is useless without Sword" or "Ranger sucks without a bow" they're generalizations that not only make little sense, but also show that you just haven't put enough thought into the skill combos in this game.
A Warrior IS useless without a Sword, Axe or Hammer. There's just no reason to give a Warrior a Wand or Daggers.
Rangers are an exception because Expertise. R/A and R/P will be useful, as discussed above.
But again, that just reinforces the point of the OP: The Primary use for Paragons appears to be using the Spear first, and commands second.
But, I'll take a wait and see attitude myself.
Rangers are an exception because Expertise. R/A and R/P will be useful, as discussed above.
But again, that just reinforces the point of the OP: The Primary use for Paragons appears to be using the Spear first, and commands second.
But, I'll take a wait and see attitude myself.
Silver_Fang
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai
A Warrior IS useless without a Sword, Axe or Hammer. There's just no reason to give a Warrior a Wand or Daggers.
Rangers are an exception because Expertise. R/A and R/P will be useful, as discussed above.
But again, that just reinforces the point of the OP: The Primary use for Paragons appears to be using the Spear first, and commands second.
But, I'll take a wait and see attitude myself. Several Warsassin build are on GuildWiki, you just need to change the mentality of tanking when using the Warsassin.
Also, There are quite a few of Assasin build that dont use dagger nor bow.
And BTW, i planning to use a Dervish that dont use a Scythe (Not D/Mo) and a Paragon that not using the command attribute.
draxynnic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai
Quote:
Bzzt! You are not a competent warrior in PVE unless you carry a longbow and step forward to do the pulling. Unfortunately, not enough people understand how aggro works in this game... Let's just say that even rangers pulling is a subpar choice as the aggro tends to "leapfrog" back to the casters when they move back out of melee range.|
A Warrior IS useless without a Sword, Axe or Hammer. There's just no reason to give a Warrior a Wand or Daggers.
Personally, I consider wands almost required for warriors who fulfill the requirements - gives you the option to attack at range when needed. Sometimes it is better for a warrior not to be adjacent to the enemy.
LifeInfusion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spura
Also RC does a hefty heal when it removes conditions and "It's just a flesh wound" just removes them while also having longer recharge and can't target self...
Cautery Signet is like Martyr but superpowered.
Anyhow, all noncore classes don't replace existing classes, they are meant as a new dynamic. For Factions it was shadow step, lead-offhand-dual combos, weapon spells, and spirits. Nightfall will be Forms, Echos, Chants, etc.
Arcador
The Paragon will make excelent Battle coordinator, since he will be somewhere between the backline and the frontline. He will be able to support and boost his team by indirect shouts, chants and echoes (Almost no targeting needed, only certain ones need that and of course he can do it.) He can focus on the battle view and monitor which player is extended, who is on low, call targets and etc. Keep in mind that not everytime the warrior have to do this and many of the other classes are too much busy already with their off target tasks.
ZenRgy
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Personally, I consider wands almost required for warriors who fulfill the requirements - gives you the option to attack at range when needed. Sometimes it is better for a warrior not to be adjacent to the enemy.
False.
I think it helps for warriors to carry wands / bows, to build up Ardrenaline (For PvP), For PvE, perhaps a bow to pull etc. can help but your ranger / caster in the group should be able to do this. How many warriors run a build that uses 8+ in a caster attribute? falling demon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai
P/R with Tiger's Fury, to speed up that spear attack.
i found the R/P premade in the preview event to be pretty good, and i should expect P/R would be too, with Blazing Spear on an R/P you can cause burning for about half the time, very good IMO
Paperfly
Quote:
For PvE, perhaps a bow to pull etc. can help but your ranger / caster in the group should be able to do this.
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Back on topic, I think taking a caster secondary (specced to 9) will be a good choice for most Paragons so as to be able to effectively swap to a wand-and-offhand config for a quick energy boost. I'm quite interested in how it enables a couple of the expensive utility skills - can you honestly say you wouldn't love having someone in your party who can use Aria of Power towards the end of every fight?
Not using spears at all, though? Obviously you'll want to run spears if you're speccing into Command to any extent, since most of the money spells trigger off attack skills and not just attacks (and there's really no point speccing into another kind of weapon class for damage). Motivation is another matter entirely - I can imagine a "defensive chanter" running 11 Leadership, 16 Motivation and (say) 9 Inspiration working fairly well. In practice though, as someone else pointed out, this would probably just be a weaker form of a Heal Party-spamming ele.
I do predict that a PVE paragon who puts more points into Command/Motivation than he does into Spear Mastery will be the most effective build - a kind of mini Orders necro. Unfortunately, that kind of build might not work as well in multiples (or be as independent for PuGs).
Spura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcador
Quote: Originally Posted by LifeInfusion Cautery Signet is like Martyr but superpowered. Ok so cautery signet has 15 sec recharge and 2 sec cast, meaning you remove all conditions every 17 sec. Martyr has 10 recharge and 1 sec cast meaning you can remove all conditions every 11 sec. And the fact that all conditions are transfered is more in favor of martyr. Burning is -7 degen anyway(cautery signet) so martyr has to pull poison, bleed and disease to top that. Degen being capped at -10 I don't see much difference. In fact mend ailment will make a handsome heal on marty user. Also martyr will often pull a condition less lethal than burning. Like blind of weakness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paperfly
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Originally Posted by Mordakai
But from what I've read of the Echo skills, this sounds like it could really have an interesting effect on the game... enough to make a non-spear Paragon? I don't know. But I hope so.
Echos have their own problem. If we look at the ones that don't renew (non-refrain ones), then a big problem is lack of indicators of presence of echos. There is no way of knowing if people have any echos on, short of people telling you themselves, a thing reserved for top guilds, really. Also with renewable ones, the small range of chants(currently less than aggro range) will cause any players straying to lose echo, without your knowledge. And unless you run a very organised team, this will be a huge problem. People even extend out of monk's range, they are much less likely to try to stay in paragon's range, as his effects are not as directly vital as healing. It will be hell to pug.I do predict that a PVE paragon who puts more points into Command/Motivation than he does into Spear Mastery will be the most effective build - a kind of mini Orders necro.
Hm prehaps you could show us one such build, that you would run in your UW group, that uses command and leadership perhaps. And then tell us which character you'd normally use would be replaced by this paragon, so I get a feeling of the role it would have.
You can find skills over at guildwars wiki.
Gets it
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There are 59 skills listed for paragon. We can expect 75 skills so that is 16 extra skills, about half of them elites.You can find skills over at guildwars wiki.
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^^^|
Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious
Anyone who honestly believes that any class in this game cannot have effective builds utilizing only one attribute from it's primary class is an idiot. You will see many W/P and P/W, and after awhile some really nice builds will be used for them.
The beauty of this game is the strategy that goes into builds. You say Assassin has to use Dagger to be effective? You're truely a fool if you believe that, an Assassin primary can use other weapons and still be quite effective. Of course, you can't use dagger skills without daggers but I mean seriously... This to me, is like saying "Warrior is useless without Sword" or "Ranger sucks without a bow" they're generalizations that not only make little sense, but also show that you just haven't put enough thought into the skill combos in this game. Never said ranger sucks without a bow. In fact trapper is quite effective. You are suggesting things like P/W which will I assume use another weapon instead of spear. So basically you are saying: Paragon won't have to use spear to be effective. He will also be able to use other weapons. You just confirmed what I said. From your answers I can see most of you agree that a good paragon primary will require a weapon of sorts for some DPS. And I don't like that.
Mordakai
OK, last night I took a quick look at the skills on Guildwiki.
First off, I think it's important to note these skills aren't final, and they are by no means (I hope) a complete list of Paragon Skills. So, going into a detailed discussion about the current skills seems kind of pointless. However, a general discussion involving what players want from a Paragon is very important, and I hope Anet takes note of this if it's not too late. But from what I've read of the Echo skills, this sounds like it could really have an interesting effect on the game... enough to make a non-spear Paragon? I don't know. But I hope so. Oh, and if adrenaline is your concern, there's always the Tactic "To the Limit" shout. And who knows, maybe Paragon will get a skill like that as well. sdrawkcab11
In the preveiw i tried P/W, it was fun to play i used sword and tactics shield and attributes in paragons primary mixed with tactics shouts which made a nice energy boost. Maybe this combination will be used more in the future?
KurtBatz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spura
I really doubt paragon will be able to work without it's weapon and weapon attribute, much like assassin.
What, like a critical barrage bleed Assassin/ranger with 16 in criticals, 10 to 12 in Marksmanship for additional criticals, critical eye for even more crits, a bow, sharpen daggers etc? ^^
My bow gives me energy every time I hit. Each time I hit, I almost always crit. Sharpen daggers causes bleeding. Each crit heals me too (forget the name of that spell) Favourable winds on top of that - my assassin is a fricking killing machine. Even managed to leave one spare slot for a pet (black moa) and naturally the healing regen from Deadly Arts ^^ I don't even PLAY my assassin with daggers anymore. It's not even close in terms of effectiveness.
Haggard
I think a spear will be very useful for paragons because even with say 9 in S.M. they will be able to unleash *fairly* good damage (though nothing compared to if they went 16 S.M. with attack skills obviously), and some sort of weapon is required to fill the adrenaline requirements of several shouts.
A staff would be slow but would provide a good energy boon. If the most popular paragon build delves into a caster attribute, having 9 in that will open up the possibility of using a focus item, though then you would still need a spear, possibly a wand. I think if you are planning to simply support with shouts and chants, a +5 spear with +5 armour/+30 hp would be wisest.
sabretalon
I can see Paragon running teams being used!
Make Haste: For 5...17 seconds, target other ally moves 33% faster. This skill ends if that ally successfully hits with an attack. Fall Back: For 4...9 seconds, all allies within earshot gain 5...13 Health per second while moving and move 25% faster. "Fall Back!" ends on an ally affected by this Shout when that ally successfully hits with an attack. Aria of swiftness: For 5...17 seconds, all allies within earshot move 33% faster while under the effects of an Enchantment A team of 2 paragons will run just about anywhere. I can also see fire spikes being a big thing during this campaign. Currently no elite in leadership, so we may have to wait to see what happens there. I can't really think too much about builds until the list is finalised, personaly I think the Paragon does have plenty to offer, if used as part of a team correctly. I would probably use mine in front of my casters. Things I'm not sure about is that some shouts/chants effect all your allies but does that also mean they effect you as well?
Clawdius_Talonious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcador
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Gets it
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Originally Posted by Spura
You just confirmed what I said. From your answers I can see most of you agree that a good paragon primary will require a weapon of sorts for some DPS. And I don't like that.
^^^
Doesn't get it If you don't like it, don't buy it. I probably won't enjoy playing Paragon, I'll make one and see, however... A properly played Paragon will be an asset to a team. You don't see any healing monks doing any more damage than with their wand attacks, do you? Would you then go on to say that Monks are useless party members, because they don't add to your DPS without a weapon?
Moa Bird Cultist
That isn't to say that monks cannot be an offensive contributor as well - people dismiss smiting as a gimmick too easily. Smiting hurts high armour mobs extremely well
As for Assassins not being able to live without daggers, I think quite the opposite: You will have your A/Ds disproving that in quite a spectacular style soon enough and A/R and A/W critical barrage/critical triple chop-cyclone axe are perfectly reasonable builds - better than most, if not all dagger based builds for DPS. As for taking Triple chop instead of AoD, AoD isn't the only teleport spell by quite a long way. Also, with alternate teleports, you can be far more unpredictable for your oponents. Then, the paragon: We'll see paragons in melee for one good reason - the high use of elemental weapons in PvP by warriors. Granted, to date, they only have resistances to 2 out of the 4 primary elements imbubed in their armour. But as it stands, +80 vs physical and +90 vs elemental as standard gives them better melee armour than rangers and the second best elemental defence in the game. Plus, their attack animations look really cool, (although that never helped any of the Rt/W's out there  )
Rancour
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai
A Warrior IS useless without a Sword, Axe or Hammer. There's just no reason to give a Warrior a Wand or Daggers.
Trust me, a W/A wit daggers can deal some insane damage in a short spam of time with the use of Flourish... There's a max of 10 seconds between youre spikes, and the first two are instant successive. You get max energy and a full recharge of all Dagger skills when you use Flourish AND the best armor in the game.
True, you can't get 16 in Dagger Mastery or whatever, but I think the damage potential and ability to actually STAY in a fight makes up for that.
Mordakai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancour
Trust me, a W/A wit daggers can deal some insane damage in a short spam of time with the use of Flourish... There's a max of 10 seconds between youre spikes, and the first two are instant successive. You get max energy and a full recharge of all Dagger skills when you use Flourish AND the best armor in the game.
True, you can't get 16 in Dagger Mastery or whatever, but I think the damage potential and ability to actually STAY in a fight makes up for that. Will a W/A with Daggers do more DPS than a Sword or Axe Warrior? I honestly don't know, if someone can prove me wrong, I'll take it back. Mao Bird Cultist I forgot about criticals for a A/W with Axe or Sword. That could definately up the DPS, but is it enough to cover the loss of 16 in Axe or Sword? pagansaint
I read this thread and just shook my head.
Maybe, just maybe, people can find ways for the Paragon's abilities that will synergize well with other classes' abilities in ways we haven't foreseen yet in the Sneak Peek. That there will be new and in all likelyhood, looking at the skills available, radical changes in some Guilds' builds. Will it happen immediately at release? Yes, to an extent, it should happen due to the fact that people have not gained a feel for the class and the limitations and counters to the way it will work. But will the pinnacle for DPS or Support be used and capitalised upon right away? Hell no. New builds and strategies arise and become strong just because someone has found a "new" way to build upon and combine different skills and ideas from other builds. Even if it is just a case of timing and strategy of use of existing skill combinations or unexpected combinations used in ways a team isn't prepared for going into a match. And this doesn't happen over night, this doesn't happen immediately after release of a patch, this sure as hell doesn't happen after all we have to go on is a few days of Sneak Peak. But then again, who knows, everyone, everywhere, might suffer a case of the stupids and not be able to think of ways to use a Paragon effectively and innovatively.
LifeInfusion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spura
Ok so cautery signet has 15 sec recharge and 2 sec cast, meaning you remove all conditions every 17 sec. Martyr has 10 recharge and 1 sec cast meaning you can remove all conditions every 11 sec. And the fact that all conditions are transfered is more in favor of martyr. Burning is -7 degen anyway(cautery signet) so martyr has to pull poison, bleed and disease to top that. Degen being capped at -10 I don't see much difference. In fact mend ailment will make a handsome heal on marty user. Also martyr will often pull a condition less lethal than burning. Like blind of weakness.
Cautery signet + mend ailment/mend condition from your protection monk > Martyr because martyr might net you dazed. 7 degen is easier to counter than dazed, blind, disease, poison, etc. because it is one condition versus a stack. Simply casting one condition removal such as Mend ailment will do it, not needing Purge Conditions.
Also it is a signet, so mantra of inscriptions works well. Spura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordakai
First off, I think it's important to note these skills aren't final, and they are by no means (I hope) a complete list of Paragon Skills. So, going into a detailed discussion about the current skills seems kind of pointless. |
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Dunno how you got from "I predict" to "I have extensively tested and have put together a build that will shake the Guild Wars metagames to their foundation". |
Originally Posted by Mordakai
Oh, and if adrenaline is your concern, there's always the Tactic "To the Limit" shout. And who knows, maybe Paragon will get a skill like that as well.
0 spec spear will do just fine for adrenaline.
Spura
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Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious
I probably won't enjoy playing Paragon, I'll make one and see, however... A properly played Paragon will be an asset to a team. You don't see any healing monks doing any more damage than with their wand attacks, do you? Would you then go on to say that Monks are useless party members, because they don't add to your DPS without a weapon?
You seem to be the one who doesn't get it. Monk's healing and protection abilities far outstrip anything paragon can muster support-wise. And because of the power of their abilities, monk can exist as a 0 DPS character. Paragon on the other hand, has too weak support abilities to exist as a 0 DPS character. This was my argument. Also nice of you to characterize a colorful description of paragon class as "gets it". I suggest you buy prima guide. It's the same kind of material, you'll enjoy it.
Paperfly
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Hm prehaps you could show us one such build, that you would run in your UW group, that uses command and leadership perhaps. And then tell us which character you'd normally use would be replaced by this paragon, so I get a feeling of the role it would have.
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Besides, I gave you a perfectly cromulent example - an Orders necro in a Barrage team. The damage math is still up in the air and is obviously untestable at this point, but you've got the following skills that would be useful to a B/P group to whatever extent:
Command:
"Go for the Eyes!"
"Stand Your Ground!"
Anthem of Envy
Song of Purification
Leadership:
Anthem of Flame
Aria of Power
All uses untested and hypothetical.
...The Command skills could fit an existing Orders necro just fine with a Paragon secondary, actually, since they usually have 2-3 "free" slots they can devote to utility spells. They'd require wanding for adrenaline, though.