Skill Unlocks in the Guild Wars Store!

What? You accusing Anet of astroturfing?

*slaps shadowfell*

If the synthetics fit...

But hey, no slapping

I'm not accusing anyone, of anything, I just find it....curious.

You are quite blatantly implying something that is absolutely ridiculous on every possible level. To quote Gaile herself; "Less drama, more thinking."

We have: buy character slot, now buy skill set.

What next?

Buy level 20 character, buy max weapons, buy reveal map?

Won’t be any point in playing this game soon

In my opinion this is a big step in the wrong direction

Always nice to see constructive, mature debate brought to the table

can always read the forums ...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0037244&page=5

I wish this topic would just die.

All of you, mods and admins including, are just bickering back and forth, back and forth. Saying the same things time after time after time and I'm getting rather tired of seeing this undercover flamewar that is this thread.

Once and for all, we asked for a shop. We asked for slots. We asked to get skills, but what none of you seem to notice is that this is truely geared towards PvP'ing Only people. Now, if you want to buy these, great. Like Gaile said, "Its your choice, we're not forcing you to buy these.", which seems none of you are understanding.

Now, if, IF, this ever comes to PvE, then it will be the end of this game, I agree with those who say this. But, I suspect it wont because everyone, my self including, suggested a PvP Only Guildwars Expansion, we're getting it drip by drip!!!

So enough of all of this bickering, Guildwarsguru isn't some newb site with every single member being an idiot. None of you realize how fantastic it is to have people like Gaile Gray post in our forum, and this site be the number FOURTH site out of 200!

If you dont like what you CAN CHOOSE to buy from the store, then I suggest you leave the game, the forum and all of this behind. We dont need your negativity which only spreads more negativity. Guildwars and ANET dont need your continous negativity, and Guildwarsguru doesnt need it either.

It is great, that she posts here, and it is great that the community is allowed to freely express concernce they have straight to a Corp. rep.


Economicly it would be better if you left, if you don't like it.
People are expressing concernces they have about the game, as is the point with a forum, we are not here to just praise the allmighty A-Net.
So if you don't like the right of free expression, what are you doing on a forum?

I'm not saying I dont like it, I support it. But everyone keeps saying the same thing over and over again aren't they?

This topic has ran it's course, plain and simple. Now it's just harvesting undercover flamewars.

The thread could do with a bit off cleaning up, I agree on that.

I have drawn two conclusions from this thread, one: players who understand what Anet is trying to do and agree with the fact that it will not effect the community or game in any way, Smart people
Two: Players who bash, bitch and complain that it's a step in the wrong direction, who must have very little understanding for how the real world works, basicly you are: DEE,DEE,DEE!!!!!

Yes, I am sorry, what was I thinking! Let me go back to counting my mini pets now.

on the other hand has anybody wondered at the sudden rash of people that register and make a first time thread bashing something Anet does that they dont like?

or the sudden rash of new posters that jump on the thread to support that new complaint poster?

or if you go to other forums you find that most of them are TGH/GWO regulars and what is posted here is straight cut/paste?

just coincidence of course (snicker)

You mean, aside from the usual trolls? Loviatar?

As for GWO, I am registered there, but have maybe, 30 posts or so. I don't like having to log in to read a forum, and just spend most of my time here, so, wouldn't know about that place.

And theres just as many newly registered, seldom posting people who are bashing it in this thread too.


Who SERIOUSLY believes that ANet is going to start offering:
Pre-leveled characters
High End Armor
Gold
"Unbalanced" Items
Fame
Champion Points
Other titles

... to the store? Seriously? You really believe that they would add ANY Of that? Just save yourself the time and uninstall the game, because, while its one thing for a company to seek new forms of income, THEY ARENT STUPID.
If they offered ANY of that in the store, they KNOW people would leave the game in droves, on the spot.

Now, if they offered:
Fancy skin, unique green weapons (that arent drops)
Possibly some unique avatar upgrades (No one complains in gunbound that there is special avatar items that you have to pay RL money for, its how they make their money off of a FREE GAME.
As efficient as GW is at using bandwidth, it STILL TAKES LOTS OF SERVERS TO KEEP IT GOING. Servers, and the bandwidth to keep YOU online, ARE NOT CHEAP NOR FREE. ANet looking for a way to supplement their income, it what is in my eyes, quite innocuous ways, I applaud their decision on the matter. They found a way to get a bit more money thats almost PURE margin.

Yes I COULD do that, however, for a warrior or ranger (or assassin, or forthcoming paragon and dervish)
This is NOT a viable way to increase your versatility in game, its expensive for one, and once that weapon gets customized, if you need to remake the pvp char, well, there went 20-30k down the drain.
For casters, bringing other weapons is a bit more viable, because you dont need them customized. (And I got a Totem axe and 20/20 Insp offhand for rolling a pvp monk on a second account for just that purpose)
HOWEVER, pvp only characters Cannot head swap, drop the sup rune, change armor IN THE GAME.

Consider, Im on my monk, I have multiple suits of armor, we face a no-warrior team, but lots of enchant drain, well, Im going to put on my Wanderers suit. Facing IWAY, or warrior heavy? Throw on Judges. Normal balanced team? Got my +10 enchanted suit. I get spiked down two times? Drop the sup rune, get 75 HP back. grab my 30/30 staff that I DONT use normally.
I have a thousand more options with my specced out pves.

I may not fully understand how the real world works, but at least I know the difference between affect and effect.

Somebody needs to take English 1301 over again before making blanket statements about how stupid everyone is.

That is a perceptive view you have, but an honest mistake on my part given that AFFECT, an EFFECT while having both different meanings, tend to still confuse the best of us.

So why put yourself down, by saying you don't understand how the real world works. You are one of the smart ones, give yourself some credit already.

Peoples misuse of the two words hardly changes his statement

The EFFECT on the game is minimal at best.

The only people directly AFFECTED by these offerings are people who want to pvp sooner and have the money to spend to do so.

Better?

Im still waiting on a valid argument against it besides "ZOMG MY TIME WAS WASTED" or "BUYING SKILLS MAKES YOU A BETTER PLAYER THAN ME"

Because thats all im seeing from the "disagree" side.

29 pages i think every angle has been covered atleast twice by now.

there is no valid reason why this was a bad idea, i'm going to purchase skills..call me a nub/noob/lazy bastard or w/e i dont care because either way i still be shit at PvP..

You say DEE, DEE, DEE. I look at you and think Bah bah Anet sheep, have you any wool. At this point, you have no stance on this issue any more. It’s gone from “This was for the players” to “it’s economics 101”. You’ve gone from its not about the money, to it is about the money, and back again. About the only thing you seem to be firm on is that players who disagree with you must be dumb and/or naive.

Chris Blackstar, I urge you to scroll through this thread again before you insult—directly or indirectly—the nay sayers again. There are as many eloquently written arguments for as against; as many leet speak uber pwnsauce comments on one side as the other.

Trying to lump all the “smart people” on your side of the argument only makes you look foolish to any unbiased observer of this thread, and serves to weaken your own stance, devalues your own words…

Hmm. On second thought, carry on

I do know something about the real world that you appear to be ignoring. You get nothing you don’t take or ask for and people will take anything from you if you let them.

Nay sayers feel that Anet is taking something from them with this. Or they fear it a prelude to something far worse. They feel cheated, lied to, distrustful and abused. And they are standing up for themselves. You may not like their stance, but you need to start respecting them in this forum.

It’s your right to feel a need to protect what you want, just as it’s our right to defend ourselves against what we feel is inequitable.

Read again. There are multiple arguments against this, from disadvantages to newbs who don't purchase, showing a dangerous trend from Anet that could threaten the "no hidden fee/free aftermarket content" stance they claimed over a year ago, violation of their own EULA without prior editing, and many more. Some are valid, some are silly. I can only assume that if you did not see the other arguments, you have not looked hard enough. That is not a slant on your efforts; we're going on 29 pages. But the arguments do exist. Gaile has countered several herself--and I'll be in Missouri while we wait to see if Anet keeps as good as her word--but they are within the thread.

EDIT: Wrynn, you all but QFT gr3g and then you say we only have 2 arguments? He talks about 6 very real concerns in this thread. I guess its true what they say about ass-u-me-ing things. You, sir, are seeing only what you want to.

Ex: I missed this post. I’d like to rebut your statements gr3g.

1 Paying to obtain primarily PvP content. While UAS may not be fame, the fear that it will have an impact on PvP is very real. Not HA--perhaps--or GvG, but lower echelon play certainly. Be honest; how many players here only enter RA to farm Balth? I’ll be honest; it’s the only reason I go in there. What happens to the RA community when it is reduced to only those who need to farm Balth Faction because they are new to the game and can’t afford Prophecies+UAS?

To them, UAS will—already does imho—represent an unfair advantage versus someone who bought the game at the same time they did.

2 Paying to obtain earnable PvP content. This I do agree with you on. I see no fame purchases in the near future in the Online store. One possible concern would be a future exploit—unintentional one would hope—that would allow people to “buy” a title. An example might be Luxon jade and Kurzick amber. While we have to redeem favor to gain these items today, the reverse may be true in future Chapter arenas. This is a small concern, however, and hardly worth mentioning.

3 Paying to obtain earnable PvE content. Of greatest concern, mostly due to 4, so I hope you don’t mind I skip down one to deal with both.

4 Paying to obtain non-earnable but balanced PvE content. A very large percentage of the game community relies on the PvE economy. From HA holding PvPers spam selling Golds they earn in Halls to pay for unlock skills and purchase multiple sets of armor to the part-time PvEer who just wants to clear his inventrory for a better profit, find the next uber leet green, or grind their way into a set of FoW the hard way. Offering ANY balanced PvE item for real world money would upset the game economy on a fundamental level. The “Rich” would liquidate quickly to protect their investments, leaving the Poor with a devalued market and no foreseeable way to earn plat for upper tier items…beyond paying for them online.

While you--one player--may not "pine" for special items, people have offered me RL money for some of my greens when I refused to sell them.

Whether it be special--only purchasable online--or not, any item that is balanced to in-game equipment and easily available to all would destroy the in-game economy. If Time=Money, why work for 3 to 30 (depending on drop ratio) hours online to farm a special item when you can work 1/2 hour at your job and afford to purchase one as good--or slightly better for your build styles--with cash?

The greatest point in favor of Anet doing this is very simple: If Skills are no longer content, how can armor be? How is a weapon content, if the spell you cast it with is not? If Anet has gained the power to choose what they will sell us and what they offer for free, why not charge us for everything?

Gaile has commented on PvE content—though I found her response slightly unclear. I’ve seen no response on “special offers” available in the online store. Keep in mind; they’ve done it twice—three times soon. We should all be farmiliar with the updated song packs offered on the Guild Wars official webiste (though offered from a third party, not Anet or NCSoft). Also, the Korean Coke promo gave accounts balanced weapon items for purchase of special Coke cans a good while back. This month’s PC gamer will be giving you a mini-pet with purchase. If they can do it via a third party, why not directly through the online store? What value is a Skill Eater if you can customize your green, name it and play with it on your toon—maxed req 9 of course—and not have to spend odious amounts of time farming for in-game plat or hunting bosses for phat lewts. How much money would you save if you only had to buy armor? And then…what happens when they let you buy “special” armor skins online as well?

5 Paying to obtain unbalanced PvE content. I agree with you, but at the same time not. As I hope is shown above, even offering balanced items for RL money would unbalance play time, economics and effort. Even if these items were blues, Green farming would die along with its profits. Purchasing even special promo skins of armor would kill the price and availability of certain craft materials, as no one would need to grind for armor. And before anyone says “Anet won’t do it” keep in mind: people asked for things like this to be added to the online store as well as UAS. It’s safe to presume—from their granting UAS in the first place despite its potential to imbalance to certain game types—that if enough people ask in forums, Anet will acquiesce.

6 Paying to obtain unbalanced PvP content. 6 is fundamentally the same argument as 2, only even more foolish if implemented. I agree completely; no way in hell.

EDIT: I used RA to make a point; not to devalue RA or its player base. There are many people who I am sure enjoy Random. But I do not think that those people--and many other sub-sections of players in Tyria and Cantha--are represented in this thread or this forum. Before anyone else comes in here with blanket statements about "the players" this and "the players" that remember: Guild Wars caters to multiple types of users and multiple styles of play. Just because the people you play with like or dislike what they are seeing here does not give you omnicience to the minds of all people in-game. Think about your own arguments before you post again people; I'm getting tired of folks trying to shove words in MY mouth, much less those who have yet to speak here en masse.

*Looks down at next post* I'm curious; what rank are YOU Spike? Fighting fire with fire in a forum like this will only get your fingers burned.

Your obviously VERY short sited then, but then all pvpers are. So no supprise there. Because there have been other points against this. 1) Its gives an UNFAIR advanatge to people who can afford against those that can't. 2)Its the start of the slippery slope to selling other money over time items. EG Lvl 20 RP charactes, Titles, Fame etc. One could argue that rank, fame and titles are all ready for sale with this.

Why should a SMALL minotity of moaning players (ie pvpers) get to control what the VAST majorty of players want and how they play. This is NOT game is not soley or even majorly about pvp, and before you start telling that is it. IF one of the lead designers of this game says this a PVE game then thats what it is. I think its about time we (pvers) start to exert our presense and do something about this group of moaners who are trying to ruin GW.

So you go and make stereotypes, thats not a good way to start a debate.

Lots of people have said it, not one person has explained how.

Im not short SIGHTED.
It in no way shape or form is in any way unbalanced.
Just because someone has every skill avalible means jack.
I know what skills to put on my bar, that makes me a better player, NOT having all of them.
80% + of the skills are never used in "serious" pvp. Ever.
So what advantage does this bring? None. Just because someone HAS migraine unlocked doesnt mean they know what to do with it, how to keep it on, etc. Just because someone has WoH doesnt mean they fully understand how good of a skil it is. Just because someone has (insert crappy elite here) doesnt mean they know its trash. (And dont start the argument of "well this skill COULD be good" there are LOTS of complete trash elites, and this isnt the place to discuss it)

And why would this affect anyone BUT pvpers? How does this change pve AT ALL? The effects on the state of the game as a whole are MINIMAL.
So some RA person gets all their skills before someone else, so what? This means NOTHING.

As far as a slippery slope? Whatever. Its a cop out excuse used by those who are against it for whatever reason. ANet is NOT going to be selling specced out PvE characters. EVER.

NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS EXPLAINED HOW RANK AND FAME ARE SOLD BECAUSE SOMEONE CAN BUY SKILLS.
ALL of you against it are STILL acting like having UAS somehow makes you AUTOMATICALLY as good as someone like Bloodlight Eyes or Soul Wedding.
Just because you can now copy EviLs Mo/A builds doesnt mean you know how to manage your energy with that build. Doesnt mean you know exactly how the skills will heal people with them. Doesnt mean you know whens a good time to use DE or Return.
NOTHING replaces skill learned over time. EVER.
Having all of the skills does not infuse you with the power of thousands of hours in top level gvg and tombs.
So you know what? You argument is null, in no way shape or form is rank and fame for sale here. Try and argue that its for sale, Ill void out everything you throw at me.

Like it or not, PvP is the endgame. Get over it, this is a very very old discussion, and if you happen to go back in time, youll find out that ANet never expected the PvE content to become as popular as it is. Sorry, this comment is flat out wrong.

Hrmm, this is pvp ONLY content, last I checked, this is what pvpers wanted, and this doesnt affect pve in the slightest, so why should a lot of people with NO stake in the matter have a say in it?

Like it or not, pvp is the end game content. Thats where ANet wanted you to end up with their game. This is not debatable. Why do you think IWAY still exists? Despite the utter HATRED of it by most people in tombs? BECAUSE IT GETS THE REGULAR MASSES PVPING.

Pve has ruined viable pvp skills because of use by farmers, so should we be pissed at you for ZOMG U RUINED OUR BUILD.

So when the pvpers want something, ANet listens. And apparently enough pvpers wanted this in some form. And they delivered.

If you can give me ONE good example of how this in ANY way affects the people who enjoy pve and dont want to pvp, I might listen to what you have to say, but up to now, you have baseless claims about some yadda yadda and some flim flam.
--------------------
EDIT:
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Its not a dangerous trend yet. Yes the possibilities are there, but there is nothing that says you HAVE to buy the skills to be competative in the game. There is ZERO clear advantage to buying the skills as an experienced pvper (if you arent already UAX, or close, theres really no point) except to possibly bring a second account up to speed quickly.
Those "six" arguments mentioned are basically the SAME argument, just different points within the same overall topic of "ANETS GONNA MAKE YOU PAY TO BE COMPETATIVE" Which will not happen. If it does, there will be such a huge exodus of players from the game as to kill any and all profit margins potentially gained from offering such a thing.
Personally, the skill unlocks dont bug me, why? The same thing everyone else is saying, It doesnt mean a damn thing having the skills and not knowing how to use them.

All of you naysayers STILL have yet to counter why it is that you seem to think that buying skills automatically makes you rank nine+ and top 10 gvg material on the spot.
And even if they COULD somehow figure out how to impart the wisdom of hundreds or thousands of hours playing, well, then they just made a mint because everyones gonna want that tech.

In the forseeable future, I think it wouldnt be unreasonable to see custom green weapons (immediatly customized for the characters account, spawned just like pre-order weapons)
and the ability to purchase said item. However it would have to look DAMN good to justify me buying it. (And now, Im not talking unbalanced stuff, like if they started selling the old rockmolder or something) Im talking simple stuff, the purchasable greens would have the same stats as existing weapons in the game, but they would just have a limited skin.
This wont "kill the market" because overall golds and collectors and crafters still give you a bit more options as far as what you want. Id probably be annoyed if you could pay for custom hair styles and faces, but there was no option within the game to do so (ie: paying could get you DIFFERENT, not available in game hairstyles or something)

wow dude you are so far off base i dont even know where to begin with this.

1) no on ever forced anyone to buy this. if you chose to buy this its on your own accord and own money. if you dont buy it grind out all the skills like the rest of us had too.
2) anet will never sell items/money/lvl 20 chars, titles, fame, or rank with this. This would totally ruin the in game economy and balance of the game, and just because you have every skill unlocked, doesnt mean you have the skill to use them.

I was origionally against this update as i felt it was unfair that they introduced this now and forced the veteran players to have to force their way through pve to obtain things they werent able to use (premades used to suck ass royally) but looking back on this, from a pvp only standpoint its a good idea in its essence, just poor timing.

PVP is, was, and always will be the entended endgame for guildwars. this has been the same throughout the history of the game. IN NO WAY has anyone ever said this was primarily a pve only game. The main focus behind guild wars was that you played through the storyline to unlock items/skills/runes for pvp. why else would the unlocks and the pvp only characters be there? Think abotu this also, what is better for displaying your game to attract viewers/buyers/players at an expo, someone either getting ran, powerleveled or farming... or having a tournament such as the GWWC or the GWFC (Guild wars world championships and guild wars factions championships for the pve players or the newer players)?

Most skill updates are coordinated THROUGH pvp balance as was intended. why some havent been updated for pvp is beyond me as they have been biched about for ages now... but no skill balances besides maybe the prot-bond and aoe update were ever introduced for pve only updates. Every major skill update has affected pvp 100x more than its affected pve with the exception of one or two as suggested. Items have been changed/removed/restored/added/etc.. based on pvp characters such as the origional hod swords or the hod helms which caused a major imbalance in the PVP content. they didnt do it to disuade running or to disuare farmers. they did it because they were not available for pvp only characters.

also pvp players are not as pve nub as you like to think. yes while some are elitest jackasses (insert whoever you have run into here that pissed u off in pvp), the majority will help out lots of people and also pve as well. Why do you think that the first group to beat Urgoz's Warren, known to be one of the hardest missions in the game, were a pug group composed of pvp players? Why do you think observer mode was invented? to try to give the newer players a chance to learn placement, tactics, builds for pvp playstyle. the new premades were also made with the intention of having newer plaers be able to break into pvp and have a USEFUL build.

Its not that PVP players are trying to take over your game... far from it. PVP players could care less what you do in pve or how much you can farm. PVP players want balance and equality with this game which is why PVP players push harder and more agressively for things to be done, and bitch louder and stronger when they screw things up.

The only addendum that I would have to add to yichi's post, is that ANet does have certain skills made for pve that dont work well in a pvp context, and vice versa, although the majority are designed to be used in both.

Well, and apparently some skills that are there as a joke, but well, thats a whole different discussion.

Simple because everyone else in the Alliance where forbidden to do the mission until the "selected elit pug" had beaten it.

So the "uber" guilds could show off, ofcourse

It is well past the time when PvP and PvE need's to be separated in to 2 separet games, the PvE side of the game is big enough to stand on it's own financially, and judging by the way A-Net looks after the PvP side they should be ok aswell.

look, Minus sign, that was a nice post,

I don't agree with all you are saying but not going to start quoting etc...

I just want to say: Yes, Anet shouldn't sell PvE items/armours/... or what else for real life money, and actually I don't think they will do this, but its good that ppl like you show what some of those nay sayers actually mean by this but don't express their point of vieuw good.

But do you rly think that Anet will just ruin the economy? this addition ONLY affects PvP players and has nothing to do with PvE.

I still don't see what you mean with RA players with these UAS having an advantage over RA players without, but oh well, imo RA isn't rly a discussion.

But 99% of the nay-sayers don't have valid points, the only valid argument in this discussion is what Anet is going to add in the future and its very good to have this discussion. When Anet descided to add PvE content into the store, well then I will join nay-sayers side, but imo this will never happen.

omg... dividing PvE and PvP into 2 sepperate games?... geez, what a stupid idea.

observer mode is for the uber guilds to show off.... right, nice statement, GG.

This thread has run its course. If you want to start a PvE vs PvP debate, do it elsewhere, but next time don't ruin other threads.

Vilaptca