Vamp Or AP

Witch does rly do more damage? Vampiric Mod or Armour Penetration?

Just a stupid new question since im making 3 perfect axes & 3 perfect swords (each of these sets are Zealous, Vamp Or AP & double adrenaline) & one Perfect Storm Bow (Zealous). time to go leet W ^^.

Answer fast thanx in advance

constant damage or a unreliable spike chance

best 3 upgrades are:
- vamp
- zealous
- elemental

followed by
- condition lengtheners
- furious

ending with
- sundering

Try searching for " vampiric sundering "
You'll find a comparison sooner or later where is being explained that sundering, even at 20/20, still can't match the AVERAGE damage of vamp.

However, if your sundering strikes while you're hitting a critical hit, that's a lot of damage. But vamp is reliable, letting sundering strike is too low a chance.

Use vamp to fight rangers and monsters/people who have high armour against ele damage (rangers, elementalists).
Use an elemental upgrade to fight people/monsters with higher armour against physical (warriors are a good example)
Use zealous as utility or to power things like flurry

I have not used furious long enough to have a decent opinion about it so moo

I actually use Vamp, Zealous & Furious Axe & Swords & i like the furious more than elemental damage cause i an do more adrenal ataks.

Anyway you answered my question NICELY thanx thanx thank YOU!

Thanx again

The information Don Zardeone gave about elemental upgrades is not exactly true! For the AL it doesn't matter which kind of damage the weapon deals, as long as the armor has no additional modifier. Elemental is only of use if a specific enemy has a weakness agains that specific type of damage (eg. Titals in the last missions agains cold damage). In general you can say that elemantal damage is too specific to be useful (with the exception of e.g. cold damage when there's Spinal Shivers on the target) Against Warriors Sundering is definitely the best mod as you will penetrate 20% of a strong armor with a chance of 20%.

Alright let's see here...and I'll base this on a 60 AL target.

Customized 15^50 axe at 16 Axe Mastery deals 63 damage with Wild Blow. With a vampiric mod and 5 attacks, that's 66 * 5 which is 330 damage.

Same axe, same attribs, but with a 20/20 sundering mod...

It will likely deal 63 * 4 + 77 damage over five attacks. That's 329 damage.

The actual probability that the sundering mod will take effect once in those five attacks is...

1 - .8^5, or about 68%.

This means Vampiric should deal more damage in the long run, but even so, the two mods in this case are pretty equal. Sundering is probably better for spiking, due to the chance that you'll get that extra damage, whereas Vampiric is better for extended dps.

For those who want to verify or contest these tests results, here are the relevant stats. Also, the results of another test are shown near the end.

Attribs:

Axe Mastery: 16
All others: 0

Skills:

Wild Blow

Weapon:

Furious PvP Axe
Double Adrenaline on hit (chance: 10%)
Damage +15% (while Health is above 50%)
Damage +20%
Customized

Target: Suit of 60 Armor on the Isle of the Nameless

Results:

Wild Blow with this weapon dealt 63 damage, 5 times in a row. This ensured what I already knew: that Wild Blow always deals the same amount of damage if there are no changing modifiers.

With a 20/20 Sundering weapon identical to the one above, save for the changed mod, the 14th hit with Wild Blow dealt 77 damage. The next set took 11 hits to trigger. The next took three. There was no variation to the increased damage; it was always 77.

I will now conduct a test of 10 Wild Blows each for a Sundering and a Vampiric Axe.

Total damage from Sundering: 630
Total damage from Vampiric: 660.

The Sundering mod, as you notice, did not activate even once out of those ten possible times. The probability of this is 10.7%.

It took four more hits to trigger the Sundering mod, meaning that on the 14th hit it triggered. The probability of the mod NOT triggering 13 times in a row is...about 5.5%. This is disturbing in that three times out of four, Wild Blow had to be used 10 or more times to trigger the Sundering mod. So perhaps it is not as reliable as math would have it, therefore increasing the power of the Vampiric mod.

Vamp is good for constant damage addition, but sunder is good for the spikes to suprise the monk.. thats how i see it and after reading numerous articles i'll stick to my vamp..

Vamp FTW and a Switch Elemental Bow For other purposes.

@Relambrien you can't say that it's not activated in 20% of the cases unless you've made hundrets of repetitions to minimize the relative error. It's too late here to calculate the average amout of hits you need to get a correct result. But it's definitely more than 28
I am sure that Anets RNGs are good enough to satisfy such an simple distribution.

btw... as I said before: Sundering is only effective agains high-AL-targets!

Vamp
Zealous
Elemental
Furious
Sundering

That's how I'd number them.

I will say it now, I take no credit for these numbers whatsoever.
This shows how much extra damage the respective mods do to what target.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10033346

@Ess Age: You're pulling information out of nowhere, just stop.
Typical warrior armor: 80 AL + 20 AL vs physical
Sundering = Physical damage against 100 AL. It has a 20% chance to reduce it to 80 AL.
Ebon = Elemental damage against 80 AL. It's 80 AL all the time.
Guess which mod is more effective?

Also, sundering is less effective against higher AL targets.

@Relambrien: you, like ubermancer in the above link, are making the rather flawed assumption that you're getting a critical hit every time. At 16 axe mastery it's about 23% of the time. The chances of you getting one critical+sundering hit in 3 hits (where it supposedly counts) is 10%; the chances of two of those are 0.6%.

@Ulivious: look at the link and percentages above.


To be honest, sundering isn't as bad as it used to be, but it still trails behind vampiric. And it still would be at the bottom of my list of mods to use. (10% always would sound a bit nice.)

I never claimed my tests were complete, thorough, and totally accurate. Quite the opposite. Thanks for trying to help, of course. As always, the more opinions the better.

Vampiric by a mile, and as Savio points out, Sundering becomes even less useful as AL increases (yeah you penetrate more armour, but your bonus damage is a multiple of your base damage, which is smaller due to high armour).
I've heard this "spike" argument for Sundering a few times, but really, it makes no sense - Sundering also unreliable so you cant count on it when you unleash a spike, and since +damage from attack skills is added AFTER armour, you dont get any more bonus damage from Sunderig than you would from an ordinary attack.
Sundering is rubbish, and really has little reason to exist.

sry, I didn't see that four out of six armor types have +20 vs. physical. Then of course elemental is better. So it's not warriors, it's high-AL-level in common.

But altogether your dmg output with elemantal dmg is reduced as there is a strong penalty against rangers and elemantarists and absolutly no bonus agains all the other clases (except most warriors).
On the other hand sundering does 20% AP in 20% of the cases agains all enemies...

That's why warriors typically have both an elemental (usually ebon) weapon and a vampiric weapon. Elemental is used against warriors and targets with +armor versus physical, and vampiric against rangers, elementalists, other targets with +armor versus elemental, or targets with no damage type resistance. Two weapons do a whole lot more than one weapon trying to cover all the bases.

Don't underestimate Furious in an adrenaline-heavy build. When you can get a few double adrenalines in row you can get a pretty awesome spike. I think Furious is key on a hammer warrior, cause more adrenaline is more KD chains.

i refer vamp or zealous on a warriors mods depending on what skills you use a zealous or furious one would be good

While vamp appears to do more damage everyone seems to forget you are LOSEING 3hp per second EVERY second while useing one. This to me anyway makes it pretty much useless. I prefer ele damage or even sundering to loseing HP all the time.

OMG.

Warriors have 80+20 vs ele ( gladiator's )

Thus, use elemental.

Vamp, furious and condition lengthen ftw.

1 pip of health degen is 2 health lost per second. Without an IAS you gain 3 health every 4/3 second, or 9/4 health per second. That means you gain 1/4 health per second while fighting without any increased attack speed. With an IAS you gain 3 health every 8/9 second, or 27/8 health per second. That's a gain of 9/8 health per second while fighting with an IAS. That is why nobody cares about health degen; it's tiny (it'll take at least 4 minutes of standing around to kill you) and doesn't even matter when you're fighting. If you're not hitting anything you switch to elemental.

What exactly do you do with furious and condition lengthening?

Dear God, don't say anything when you don't know what you're talking about.

1. A warrior usually has 80 vs everything 100vs physical. If you use an elemental weapon then you will hit the 80 armour, NOT the 100. Which means that an ele weapon completely destroys sundering unless you're fighting a sentinel armoured player. Still, elemental would still be better if this is in pvp where most warriors have an attribute helm and KD gauntlets so 25% of the time, your hits will hit an area that has 80 vs all and 100vs phys. Compare this to the 20% of sundering......................................

Now add to that that there is ZERO damage reduction against elemental damage. That's another 3-8 points more damage your elemental will do compared to physical.

Therefore:
ELEMENTAL BEATS SUNDERING WHEN FIGHTING WARRIORS

2. Yes, some monsters are weaker against a certain thing than other monsters but in general it is better to use ele vs warriors and vamp vs rangers/eles. Why?
GO OUT AND HIT STUFF
Then come back and tell everyone I am correct -_-


3. Someone I know has tested several damagetypes on titans. Result: Fiery, icy and shocking all 3 deal the same amount of damage. I am now going out to repeat that exact same test.
Just because people bring winter into the titan missions doesn't mean that they know what they're doing.

(I don't have any faith in humanity)

QFT.

Listen to Savio. He's argued this point a thousand times over.

... and he's still right.

Actualy Savio ASSUMES that you hit ALL the time and EVERY time. Which is very unlikely. With out IAS if you miss even as little as 1 in 10 you will LOSE health. Maybe not much but your still loseing it. I stated it was useless TO ME not to everyone else. I find my IDS or FDS to be much better for my warrior and a barbed or poison string to be better for my ranger.

What to do with furious and condition lengthening. 1) Furious provides extra adrenaline which is usefull for a lot of skills that are based on it. 2) condition lengthening is used with such skills as Sever Artery or Melandru's Arrows which casue bleeding to make the effect last longer.

Vamp cancels itself out practically if you are attacking. If you arent attacking just switch weapons.

I'm not much of a numbers guy so perhaps someone can crunch this for me.

A tank with 13 str, 15 axe and a 20/20 mod

Primal Rage + (<signet of strength> + Judges Insight) -assumes that sig of str and JI will last the 10 sec duration of Primal

would that warrior do more damage with a vamp/ele weapon in each scenario ?

It's hella damage with all 3 and a 20/20 mod. Could it be more ?

After reading this post alone i know to ignore everything this guy has/ had to say on this topic. Warriors have 80 base armor and +20 to physical damage now its plain stupid to sit and attack a warrior with a physical damage weapon. Where as if i had my elemental damage weapon im bypassing that +20 completely and hitting his 80 base armor every time. Now to make this easier. Which is smarter to do, hit a warrior with 80 base and +20 armor with a sundering weapon getting to his 80 a hopeful 1/5th of the time or hitting it with my elemental mod hitting his base armor 5/5th's of time. If you pick the 1st option i suggest you uninstall guildwars asap.

Back to the topic me personally im a huge warrior fan and have many weapons. I normally use vamp zealous and elemental but i also have sundering (just to rest on and have no drawbacks). I have a furious sword but i barely use i just had a skin that i needed a mod for so i choose it. I could come in handy when using dragon slash, auspicious parry, or even for great justice.

Who's assuming what?

If you're not hitting anything at all, it takes at least 4 minutes for you to degen to death. Unless you're afking by yourself or your teammates hate you, there's a pretty good chance you'll get healed in those 4 minutes.

Are you using adrenaline skills as soon as they charge? Furious isn't as great unless you're doing so, and spamming adrenaline skills isn't the best road to victory.

There's a really good chance you'll reapply the condition before the condition extension kicks in, or else the condition will be removed either through spells or death.

post

I use vamp for a much easier reason......

Vamp mod = 9-10k

perfect Sundering mod = BIG MONEY

although that only counts for PvE, for PvP I have a sundering and vamp axe for GvG, vamp axe when not spiking then switch to sundering when spiking a target.

I will go into a rage the next time someone posts sundering is for spiking. Sundering does not get any better during a spike. All +damage from attacks already ignore armor and are not affected by any armor penetration (a reason why strength is also a bit on the weak side.)

Why would I NOT use adrenaline skills as soon as they charged. Whats the point in NOT useing them ASAP. Unless of course its something like final thurst. Which depend on the mob being under 50% hp.

Once again your ASSUMEING things you don't know about. IE that everyone has 480 HP and therefore it will take 4 mins for them to die by useing a vamp weapon with out heaing. Maybe thier have 2 sup runes and therefore only 330hp or maybe none and a sup vigor and therefore 530HP.

You said you gain 0.25 Hp a second while useing a vamp sword but if you where to miss just ONE attack in ten. That 3 hp lost would wipe out all the hp you have gained over the last ten attacks. And before you start saying my maths is wrong I know you would of gained 3.25hp dureing that time but since GW only works with whole numbers in HP terms you would of lost that too.

The fact is I don't like the -1 HP degen and prefer to use something else. IE an FDS which a lot of mobs seem to have a weekness to. Or If i'm doing 5 man farming runs in SF then an IDS and an SS with spinal shivers is FAR better.

In my order of importance:

• You want to spike someone. (I guess you could care less about PvP, but it works well against those "impossible" bosses that heal themselves.)
• You're waiting for another adrenaline skill to charge before spiking someone.
• You want to interrupt someone with knockdowns.
• You have no reason to use it immediately. (Rush, Bonetti's Defense)
• You currently cannot hit someone. (Blind, wards, defensive stances)

2 superior runes on a warrior is retarded for regular usage, and if you're farming your weapon probably doesn't matter anyway. But even if you were using 2 superiors (without even a minor vigor rune or +health mods on your equipment) it'll still take you 2 minutes, 45 seconds to degen to death standing around. So what? You're going to switch to your elemental weapon or be healed in the meantime.

Again, one pip of health degen is 2 health lost per second. If you missed one attack (at 4/3 second per attack) you'd lose 8/3 health (~2.6) in that time. You'd gain 0.25 health from 9 other attacks, a total of 2.25 health. You'd lose 0.35 health in 10 hits (13 seconds), which you'll barely notice.

And the game doesn't round off health when it comes to degen and regen. The vamp gain will always be a whole 3 or 5 while the degen is fractional.

If you don't like it, you're free not to use it; I'm not controlling what you do. But don't come in here and say vampiric is trash without any proof to back it up.

OMG there still people out there that don't like the -1 degen on a Vamp Mod? As Savio has said and its been proven with calculations and tested ingame Vamp mods especially on Sword and Axes and to a lesser extent actually maintain your health level while your attacking and sometimes it actually heal you.

The reason for the 4 weapons slot isn't for you to switch to 4 different skins and flash them off but to allow you to select the weapon you need to use depending on the situation. Saves you time going into the Inventory to change the weapon.

Vamp/Zealous/Elemental are the bows that I switch around. I have a Sundering mod bow but thats because its attached permanentely to the Urgoz Longbow and I like to have twigs for my bow...

Personally i hate Sundering but i have a perfect chaos axe and stormbow on my warrior that have a 20/20 on them.. i jsut dont want to lose the 20/20 for another mod, because they cost abit. (btw i bought them with mods because couldnt find without because people are silly ad think 20/20 is good pfft)

However its good to change to the sundering chaos axe when i keep missing with zelous one.

Learn the facts, -1 degen is -2HP per second. Every times you hit with vamp mod you steal 3HP so you are healed 3HP per hit. Sword attack speed is 1.33 sec, 3 divide by 1.33 is 2.256. You are healed 2.256HP per second so it pretty much cancels each other out.

Learn to switch weapons when you are fighting and not.

EDIT: Im reading first page lol, I guess Savio explain already .... nm

I don't know why it still surprises me that people will still hold on to
their "opinion" even in the face of proven fact.

Opinions, conjecture, and theory are only valid excuses for ignorance
until a fact is proven.

If you insist on holding on to an erroneous opinion even in the face
of a proven fact... you're still wrong.

BTW I still use elemental and physical because I've yet to find a single
maximum vampire.

I guess you had to get something right sooner or later savio. I don't care about pvp in the least. So your first two points are irrelevant just like pvp. I've never found any "impossable" bosses to kill. Some are harder than others. But the best way to kill monk bosses is an SS necro with spinal shivers and someone doing him cold damage. This is a much better way to interupt something than knockdowns. There are aslo otherways.

You CAN hit while blind but only 10% of the time. You CAN hit while in a ward of meele but only 50% of the time. You can aslo hit when in a stance it justs ends the stance.

Once again your assumeing its a warrior when anyone can use a vamp weapon. There are vamp upgardes to swords,axes,hammers,bows and daggers. Aslo in nightfall you can get them for both weapons. You missed my point AS USUAL. Which is DO NOT ASSUME THINGS.

My point was that you lose HP when useing a vamp sword, not how much you lose. So thanks for proveing that for me.

I never said the vamp upgarde was trash just that it was useless to ME, and I did'nt like it and its NOT the best overall upgarde.

nugzta, Jimmy logic, Hephaestus Ram LEARN to read or maybe you should play the game instead of posting on here. The 1/4 hp per second gain ASSUMES that you hit 100% of the time which is very unlikely. In practice you hit about 90% or less depend on what type of mobs your fighting. As was proved by savio him self you LOSE hp if you only hit 90% or less I never said it was a lot just that you did.

Hephaestus Ram I've found several max vamp upgardes. In fact I have a max vamp bow for sale now.

Thanks for reminding me about bows and daggers. I completely forgot about them since I made this post comparing vampiric and sundering damage for all weapons. Obviously I shouldn't talk just about warrior weapons even though that's what the OP was asking about. I'm such an ass for assuming things and not knowing anything about the game.

Of course not, it's just the best one for physical damage. The best warrior set is elemental, vampiric, and zealous (and a wand). I don't suppose you're trying to suggest that warriors should only have one weapon and not bother with the other three weapon slots?

or maybe they should increase it to 20% so it can get some fair play