Hi folks, I tried to search to see fi this has cropped up before, and if I missed, I apologize. I'm trying to decide whether Animate Flesh Golem, or Aura of the Liche is a better elite to take as a PvE minion master (specifically for Sorrow's Furnace). I know the Golem does significantly more damage than other minions, but I have to confess I love using AotL with blood renewal and spamming the heck out of Blood of the Master - it certainly makes the minions I summon last an awful lot longer. I'm certain my damage output decreases in the case of 10 fiends & horrors vs 10 fiends, horrors, and a Golem, but I'm not sure if that's balanced by the fact that when I'm running AotL, I have the full 10 minions alive and wailing on the Stone Summit a lot more often than when I'm running with the Golem.
I can't help but think nowadays lots of people get antsy when they see a MM without the golem, and a surprising number of people a Deldrimor War-Camp (even Necros) have no idea how useful AotL is for a MM. I honestly get the impression that quite a few Oro farmers have never finsihed the game and so never encountered the skill at all.
Thoughts anyone?
Aura of the Lich vs Flesh Golem...
johnmedgla
Mistermagoo
Flesh golem FTW, you shouldn't really be up front taking the majority of the damage O_O; AoTL used to be really popular, I enjoyed it myself, but it only lasts 30 seconds (I think -.-) I know you can just renew it, but I would rather have an extra 70-140 dmg every few seconds
johnmedgla
I don't use it to reduce damage from attacks - I use it to reduce damage from Saccing. It really does mean I can spam Blood of the master every time it recharges and only sac 27 health with 10 minions. With blood renewal on, I can do it indefinitely. Plus, since it lasts for 44secs at 16 death, I don't find it a burden energy wise. I know what you mean about the big damage numbers from the golem though, they're very tempting....
nebuchanezzar
AotL > Flesh Golem. Yes this has been discussed before. If you dont have AotL then use Flesh Golem. If you have AotL use it. Period.
Xioden
The golem is the equivilent of 1-3 fiends damage wise, not to mention it can take more damage, and it's corpse can be recycled.
I personally run with Vamps, fiends, and the golem. Get the golem up, cast vamp whenever possible, otherwise fiend. In combat 2-3 vamps can cover BoTM spamming quite nicely. In a long stretch between combat, a monk shouldn't have any issue throwing a heal or two your way.
There is also of course bringing the tried and true method of bringing Heal area with you for self healing/Minion healing.
I personally run with Vamps, fiends, and the golem. Get the golem up, cast vamp whenever possible, otherwise fiend. In combat 2-3 vamps can cover BoTM spamming quite nicely. In a long stretch between combat, a monk shouldn't have any issue throwing a heal or two your way.
There is also of course bringing the tried and true method of bringing Heal area with you for self healing/Minion healing.
Yanman.be
Depends on the environment really?
Pick Me
Depending on what Sorrow's quest you are doing (or farming).
Enchantments get stripped really fast for the most part. Going against the Djinn (3 of them especially) a Flesh Golem will die in a second (600 damage per hit).
Golems are nice and cheap, but Necromancers will create wells when your Golem is killed (their spells cast faster than summoning a minion).
Overall, I still like the Golem.
Enchantments get stripped really fast for the most part. Going against the Djinn (3 of them especially) a Flesh Golem will die in a second (600 damage per hit).
Golems are nice and cheap, but Necromancers will create wells when your Golem is killed (their spells cast faster than summoning a minion).
Overall, I still like the Golem.
XvArchonvX
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebuchanezzar
AotL > Flesh Golem. Yes this has been discussed before. If you dont have AotL then use Flesh Golem. If you have AotL use it. Period.
Any chance you could share the link to this discussion?
Blackhawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yanman.be
Depends on the environment really?
Especially where there's a lot of enchant removal/degen going on, as those sorts of enviroments tend to make AotL a bit useless and the Golem a more viable Elite
Also renders a lot of Necros who dont read the "small print" regarding AotL dead.....
Also renders a lot of Necros who dont read the "small print" regarding AotL dead.....
Cherno
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Any chance you could share the link to this discussion?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/searchbt.php
Keywords "Flesh golem aotl"
Keywords "Flesh golem aotl"
Minus Sign
Its the weapon you can see versus the (imo better) skill that you can't. Many people still prefer taking 2 Emos over a mesmer, even though its stated time and again in this forum how powerful the interupting hexers can be. But you can SEE the Meteor Shower. And you can see a minion. PuGs prefer flesh golems because its a very quick gague of an MMs ability. AotL is subtle.
AotL, I feel, is more powerful too. You can keep your enitre horde (small as it is now) alive more easily than you could if your elite slot is taken by one damage skill. Even if that skill is the golem.
That it reduces damage and health in half is also useful. Healers need only heal you for half the ammount of other players to get you to full. An Orison has the potential to bring you back to full, allowing them to lay their spells more heavily on other castors. Add to that the half all damage (not just sacs, but anything that attacks you too and if you have Heal Area in a PuG you're pretty much self managing. Bring vamp minions too? whew man.
On the whole, I prefer AotL. But I use golem too. Its fun.
AotL, I feel, is more powerful too. You can keep your enitre horde (small as it is now) alive more easily than you could if your elite slot is taken by one damage skill. Even if that skill is the golem.
That it reduces damage and health in half is also useful. Healers need only heal you for half the ammount of other players to get you to full. An Orison has the potential to bring you back to full, allowing them to lay their spells more heavily on other castors. Add to that the half all damage (not just sacs, but anything that attacks you too and if you have Heal Area in a PuG you're pretty much self managing. Bring vamp minions too? whew man.
On the whole, I prefer AotL. But I use golem too. Its fun.
johnmedgla
Wow - thanks for all your replies.
As to environment, as I mentioned, this is for SF, farming most typically (blushes guiltily).
I agree that enchantment removal is a problem, but I can honestly say I've only been stripped once (I got way too close to Villnar) and the Dark Binders typically take life bond from someone else, or Blath's Spirit from thje Bonder if they've strayed too close. I'm usually a second or two behind the Tank, so Taskmasters tend to have used their shatter before I get into range, and are dead before it recharges.
My own experience is mixed, I have to confess. I've just made three quick Oro runs, twice with AotL, and once with the Golem. First, on both occassions I got 'Zomg Noobloid (sic), no golem? WTF is this Aura of the Lich Sh*t,' and 'Where the Golem you fool,' respectively. That said, it becomes impossibly easy to maintain a pretty huge army. The monk panicked at first and massively overhealed me, on both occassions, but once they realised what was going on they quite happily let me sac a few rounds before giving me a small boost, unless aggro was broken. I was running 16 Death, 9+2 SR and 9+1 Blood, and with Aura on Blood Renewal is actually a viable self heal, it literally provides more health than I was saccing with BotM and 10 minions every 2 seconds.
I honestly didn't notice any difference in the rate things died once I had the minions up. Having teh golem certainly helps immediately after zoning, when one big hitter makes it easier to generate more corpses and so start the army, but AotL makes it a heck of a lot easier to keep 10 healthy minions pounding on things constantly. Additionally, while I used to be quite cavalier about letting minions die and replacing them, I started to notice that enemies aggro very differently with 10 maintained minions vs 10 minions rising and falling over the course of the battle. Since the initial body wall stays largely intact (due to shocking BotM spamming) there's a lot less pressure on the backline.
For the AotL build I dropped healing prayers entirely (I was a N/Mo, with no monk skills) since it just wasn't required. I know Heal Area is great between battles, when all your minions are clustered neatly around you, but I'd rather sacrifice a skill slot to have the utility of BR and AotL (and avoid the drawbacks of HA when I AM pulling aggro!). As a side effect, Dark Bond now lasts Way longer than it used to - so on the rare occassions when I am stripped or shattered, that's what goes, not AotL.
I have to say I personally am really leaning in favour of AotL, but I've had three people in 5 man groups today who had never even heard of it (one was an SS Necro for God's sake!).
I suppose it comes down to playstyle.
As to environment, as I mentioned, this is for SF, farming most typically (blushes guiltily).
I agree that enchantment removal is a problem, but I can honestly say I've only been stripped once (I got way too close to Villnar) and the Dark Binders typically take life bond from someone else, or Blath's Spirit from thje Bonder if they've strayed too close. I'm usually a second or two behind the Tank, so Taskmasters tend to have used their shatter before I get into range, and are dead before it recharges.
My own experience is mixed, I have to confess. I've just made three quick Oro runs, twice with AotL, and once with the Golem. First, on both occassions I got 'Zomg Noobloid (sic), no golem? WTF is this Aura of the Lich Sh*t,' and 'Where the Golem you fool,' respectively. That said, it becomes impossibly easy to maintain a pretty huge army. The monk panicked at first and massively overhealed me, on both occassions, but once they realised what was going on they quite happily let me sac a few rounds before giving me a small boost, unless aggro was broken. I was running 16 Death, 9+2 SR and 9+1 Blood, and with Aura on Blood Renewal is actually a viable self heal, it literally provides more health than I was saccing with BotM and 10 minions every 2 seconds.
I honestly didn't notice any difference in the rate things died once I had the minions up. Having teh golem certainly helps immediately after zoning, when one big hitter makes it easier to generate more corpses and so start the army, but AotL makes it a heck of a lot easier to keep 10 healthy minions pounding on things constantly. Additionally, while I used to be quite cavalier about letting minions die and replacing them, I started to notice that enemies aggro very differently with 10 maintained minions vs 10 minions rising and falling over the course of the battle. Since the initial body wall stays largely intact (due to shocking BotM spamming) there's a lot less pressure on the backline.
For the AotL build I dropped healing prayers entirely (I was a N/Mo, with no monk skills) since it just wasn't required. I know Heal Area is great between battles, when all your minions are clustered neatly around you, but I'd rather sacrifice a skill slot to have the utility of BR and AotL (and avoid the drawbacks of HA when I AM pulling aggro!). As a side effect, Dark Bond now lasts Way longer than it used to - so on the rare occassions when I am stripped or shattered, that's what goes, not AotL.
I have to say I personally am really leaning in favour of AotL, but I've had three people in 5 man groups today who had never even heard of it (one was an SS Necro for God's sake!).
I suppose it comes down to playstyle.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xioden
The golem is the equivilent of 1-3 fiends damage wise, not to mention it can take more damage, and it's corpse can be recycled.
Flesh Golem deals 14dps. Fiends deal 16dps.
Fiends>FG
If they doubled his attack rate, FG would be worth it.
Fiends>FG
If they doubled his attack rate, FG would be worth it.
holden
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmedgla
My own experience is mixed, I have to confess. I've just made three quick Oro runs, twice with AotL, and once with the Golem. First, on both occassions I got 'Zomg Noobloid (sic), no golem? WTF is this Aura of the Lich Sh*t,' and 'Where the Golem you fool,' respectively.
those guys are idiots who have never played a MM. they'll try to tell the bonder he needs 16 in prot, not 15. in SF i'd go AotL even with the risk of losing the enchantment.
golemshmolem.
i'd take fiends and vamps personally. 8/2 or 7/3. i'd leave blood renewal at home and be monk secondary. you'll take less heat from the idiots. but really with the bonder the heal monk will be sitting on his thumb the whole time.....
those guys are idiots who have never played a MM. they'll try to tell the bonder he needs 16 in prot, not 15. in SF i'd go AotL even with the risk of losing the enchantment.
golemshmolem.
i'd take fiends and vamps personally. 8/2 or 7/3. i'd leave blood renewal at home and be monk secondary. you'll take less heat from the idiots. but really with the bonder the heal monk will be sitting on his thumb the whole time.....
Jeff Highwind
I'm suprised no one's said this about PuG's. They prefer Golem because Tanks/Sins love the mindless tanking it does for them. And since it's recyclable, they never have to worry about taking heat themselves.
That still doesn't mean it's vital. I just started playing a Necro and the AotL combo sounds lovely in terms of maintaining minions. Sorrow's Furnace though, if I recollect there aren't alot of bodies on the missions I took so FG may be viable. It truly is your decision, experiment and come to your own conclusion.
That still doesn't mean it's vital. I just started playing a Necro and the AotL combo sounds lovely in terms of maintaining minions. Sorrow's Furnace though, if I recollect there aren't alot of bodies on the missions I took so FG may be viable. It truly is your decision, experiment and come to your own conclusion.
Pick Me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Highwind
I'm suprised no one's said this about PuG's. They prefer Golem because Tanks/Sins love the mindless tanking it does for them. And since it's recyclable, they never have to worry about taking heat themselves.
That still doesn't mean it's vital. I just started playing a Necro and the AotL combo sounds lovely in terms of maintaining minions. Sorrow's Furnace though, if I recollect there aren't alot of bodies on the missions I took so FG may be viable. It truly is your decision, experiment and come to your own conclusion. In Sorrow's Furnace, there are many bodies (only ice golems and Djinns don't produce bodies). Its the necromancers that create wells of suffering, which steals bodies from you, so you can't make minions (priests rez the dead too).
That still doesn't mean it's vital. I just started playing a Necro and the AotL combo sounds lovely in terms of maintaining minions. Sorrow's Furnace though, if I recollect there aren't alot of bodies on the missions I took so FG may be viable. It truly is your decision, experiment and come to your own conclusion. In Sorrow's Furnace, there are many bodies (only ice golems and Djinns don't produce bodies). Its the necromancers that create wells of suffering, which steals bodies from you, so you can't make minions (priests rez the dead too).
Carinae
You can beat Dark Binders 95% of the time, and the rezzing priests...I love those guys! I kill them LAST! Everytime they rez someone, I get ANOTHER corpse.
Osi Ri S
yea the bloodstained boots are a must and it really helps if you have at least one 20/20 wand or offhand. Personally i like AotL rather then Flesh Golem. Not just in sorrows furnace. the only time i take flesh golem is if im in a place where corpses are scarce.
yes fiends>golem, especially since the fiends can just stand there and hit every target rather then wasting time running into melee range. normally by the time my golem gets to the enemy its already dead from henchies or my fiends.
yes fiends>golem, especially since the fiends can just stand there and hit every target rather then wasting time running into melee range. normally by the time my golem gets to the enemy its already dead from henchies or my fiends.
Pick Me
People,
Please refrain from comparing Golem to fiend to minion to horror (normal or vampiric).
There is no comparison, Golem > 1 Fiend or 1 Horror or 1 Vampiric Horror or 2 Minons.
People tend to make the comparison of 10 fiends vs 1 golem. Sorry, but a Flesh Golem does not replace 10 Fiends or 10 Minions or 10 Horrors (vampiric or normal).
10 fiends vs 9 fiends and 1 golem, do you really think you can win?
Golems have more health, do more damage (while attack slower) than any ONE minion/fiend/horror.
The question is Golem or health. Damage reduction from AotL or a portable corpse.
Its a judgement call. My judgement as stated earlier in a previous post, is Golem. But everyone has their own opinion.
Please refrain from comparing Golem to fiend to minion to horror (normal or vampiric).
There is no comparison, Golem > 1 Fiend or 1 Horror or 1 Vampiric Horror or 2 Minons.
People tend to make the comparison of 10 fiends vs 1 golem. Sorry, but a Flesh Golem does not replace 10 Fiends or 10 Minions or 10 Horrors (vampiric or normal).
10 fiends vs 9 fiends and 1 golem, do you really think you can win?
Golems have more health, do more damage (while attack slower) than any ONE minion/fiend/horror.
The question is Golem or health. Damage reduction from AotL or a portable corpse.
Its a judgement call. My judgement as stated earlier in a previous post, is Golem. But everyone has their own opinion.
Mars Dragonblade
While AotL is good when sacrificing health, I never find myself needing to use it ever. 16 death, 11 soul reaping and the rest in healing prayers. Bring BotM and Heal Area, that's the problem solved, at least for me. Also when you mentioned wells, if you have a weapon with 20% fast casting for death magic and bloodstained boots, you can raise any kind of minion in 1.125 seconds if you're lucky, otherwise it's always 2.25 seconds (25% faster casting time = 0.75 x 3 = 2.25, 2.25/2 = 1.125).
unienaule
If carinae is correct (usually the case when talking about minions), Flesh Golem does LESS DAMAGE than a fiend does. Sure, the Golem hits harder, but since it's much slower, it actually does LESS damage over time than a fiend does. Does this mean a fiend would kill a Golem? No, the golem has more hp. But are we talking about a fiend going 1v1 against a golem? Again, no. If the question is which setup does higher dps (damage per second), since it's fiends, the golem loses, at least when farming. It does not have a damage advantage. However, when you look at dps overall, you're looking at 160 with 10 fiends or 158 with fiends and a golem, so the difference isn't that huge, which is where I will leave off, since the other posts have dealt with the non-damage issues well.
Xioden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Flesh Golem deals 14dps. Fiends deal 16dps.
Fiends>FG
If they doubled his attack rate, FG would be worth it.
Go take FG and fiends into the temple and try that for yourself. The Golem attacks at half the speed, but do around 4x the damage as fiends. No, I'm not pulling this out of no where, and yes I did personally go and test this with each against the same targets.
Fiends>FG
If they doubled his attack rate, FG would be worth it.
Go take FG and fiends into the temple and try that for yourself. The Golem attacks at half the speed, but do around 4x the damage as fiends. No, I'm not pulling this out of no where, and yes I did personally go and test this with each against the same targets.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Me
Are you a minion bomber? You might be better served by Bone Minions.
Are you soloing? FG is a good choice.
Are you already set on an Elite skill? Take 10 Fiends.
Quote: Originally Posted by Pick Me People tend to make the comparison of 10 fiends vs 1 golem. Sorry, but a Flesh Golem does not replace 10 Fiends or 10 Minions or 10 Horrors (vampiric or normal). OK, this IS true.
Quote:
Point well taken. Its a one on one battle between 1 bone fiend, 1 bone horror, 1 vampiric horror, 2 minions and 1 flesh golem (not a battle royal though, just 1 vs 1). |
Originally Posted by Pick Me
10 fiends vs 9 fiends and 1 golem, do you really think you can win?
Are we talking PvP or PvE? In PvP you won't have your Golem very long, it'll be taken from you. Fiends do not attract VA/VG like Golem does.
In PvE, straight up, FG does less dps to 60AL targets than Fiends do. Minion Data FG also downright stupid and will run wayyyy out of aggro range to attack targets and lead them back to you. Fiends don't. But the difference isn't about dps. It's about what gets the job done better in a given situation. Since 10 Fiends is usually adequate, you need to justify using your Elite on FG besides the fact that he's big and scarry.
Carinae
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xioden
Go take FG and fiends into the temple and try that for yourself. The Golem attacks at half the speed, but do around 4x the damage as fiends. No, I'm not pulling this out of no where, and yes I did personally go and test this with each against the same targets.
Some alliance mates were having troubles MMing Temple also. I didn't have much difficulty with it, kept 10 Fiends alive all the time. I will say this about Temple, you have to watch the Elementalists. Lots of AOE which can really hurt Fiends. In that regard, FG is nice because it can take more damage.
But how hard is it to let the Warriors charge in first and you follow after a few seconds?
Nanood
Just a quick idea. Why not bring both ?
Oh damn. That would require a whole bunch of new rules and we would be super leet lol. If only. I know.. Useless post. But as long as we are having fun right ?
Kaida the Heartless
+ N/Me:
AotL Arcane Mimicry BotM + N/Mo: Flesh Golem Healing Breeze/Mending/Blood Bond/etc. Vigorous Spirit + Ventrillo Steamroll Missions with this. It's quite fun. The concept is pretty simple. The N/Me uses Arcane Mimicry to summon a golem whenever needed. This player is also the primary minion healer, and should try to maintain alot of Vampiric Horrors. The N/Mo is also a MM (fiends), but they also have the job of helping to maintain the N/Me. I'll post the build if you all want to, stats, skills, and equipment.
Ensign
They've upped the damage on Flesh Golem. I still don't think it's that good.
Peace, -CxE
Evilsod
I don't see the point in Heal Area in a MM build..... everything you need is in Death Magic.
I do prefer AotL in terms of been able to spam BotM indefinatly to keep minions alive. The golem may not deal more damage over time, but it can deal 'spike' damage to help finish off that 1 enemy. I've been seeing what the hype is with FG, after been hit by it while playing boon prot in FoW when the MM died i can't deny it hurt... but its refire was pathetic. Recently though i've been using both Taste of Pain and Taste of Death. Why bother with Heal Area? If you need health mid battle (you'l probably get healed by monks anyway) use Taste of Pain for a quick 158/166 health, its very likely there is at least 1 enemy there with less than 50% health. Out of battle needing to keep fiends alive? Taste of Death the Flesh Golem, reanimate it, BotM a bit, etc. Xioden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Some alliance mates were having troubles MMing Temple also. I didn't have much difficulty with it, kept 10 Fiends alive all the time. I will say this about Temple, you have to watch the Elementalists. Lots of AOE which can really hurt Fiends. In that regard, FG is nice because it can take more damage.
But how hard is it to let the Warriors charge in first and you follow after a few seconds? I mean Temple of Balthazar to test damage. The temple you are refering to, between afflicted explosion and and AoE damage from various things Minion bomber works much better if you want Any Melee minions. Fiends are dead in one Breath of flames, so they're gone and out quickly aswell. Kali Magdalene
So I decided to look in here and wondered if the AotL vs. FG debate continued...so not surprised to see this at the top of the forum.
My own answer is: Both skills are good for different reasons. Use whichever works for you situationally. Unfortunately, I haven't been in Sorrow's Furnace to say what works best there. My own preference: If I'm in a real team with real people, AotL works very nicely. If I'm solo, Flesh Golem seems to work better. Maybe it's my imagination, but I seem to come under more fire when I have henchmen, which often means chain-stripped enchantments. During the dragon festival, I found my flesh golem was extremely useful against the monsters in the mini missions. It just tore them to pieces, and a couple of times soloed most of a full spawn after other players had died, and its own death was irrelevant as I could just make a new one.
Ensign
Just did a few tests on the Isle - Flesh Golem is clocking in at just under 28 DPS against the 60 AL Barrels. So it's just a bit under two Bone Fiends worth of damage, with a bigger body and more armor.
Peace, -CxE
Kaida the Heartless
I think people are overlooking the fact that minions are meat shields as well. Granted, they are excellent damage dealers as well, but pulling damage off of damage dealers and allowing them to focus is an advantage as well. This is one fact that has been neglected in this discussion thus far.
Flesh Golem: One Big Tank. High HP, High Def (from a minion's standpoint). Also melee and able to grab a good lot of the enemy aggro. BotM spamming is still effective, but health must be watched much more carefully. Bonus Advantage: Infinite Corpse loop. Good for healing (Taste of Death) or spreading poison once the golem has engaged (Death Nova). Drawback(?): Only worth an estimated 1-2 minions. AotL: Heal Powa. Infinite BotM spamming with Vampiric Horrors means that all your minions, though they have less armor (than a Flesh Golem), will be getting healed constantly. Bonus Advantage: Able to maintain minions much more easily outside of combat. Drawback: Stripable I would have to say that AotL is better from a "meatshield" standpoint, but if your going into an area that has alot of corpses to constantly replace fatigued minions, then by all means, bring Flesh Golem for the damage. Blackhawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilsod
I don't see the point in Heal Area in a MM build..... everything you need is in Death Magic.
This is very true, and I agree on that score, but on the other side of the coin, I like to know that I can also heal my teammates to a certain degree as well as myself if the Monk cops it.
Pick Me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
|
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood Are you soloing? FG is a good choice.
Are you already set on an Elite skill? Take 10 Fiends. If you use an elite which one? Aotl, OoB, FG, Virulence, TF?
Quote: Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
Are we talking PvP or PvE? In PvP you won't have your Golem very long, it'll be taken from you. Fiends do not attract VA/VG like Golem does.
Probably true, but either way, in PvP your AotL will be removed and you'd be killed (yes you get health back, but shatter enchantment will take some of that right off. Lets not forget, fiends tend to stick together, nice SS kills them all very quickly.
.
