Anything wrong with playing your secondary as your primary?

elLOCOmutha

elLOCOmutha

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Ascalon City, Tyria

Free Agent

W/

I know the obvious problems like attribute points, runes and primary skill lines,but dont you just want to try something new sometimes without making a whole new character?

Like with my Warrior I have had him since beta but sometimes I go with a build so I can use a bow. I get so sick of feeling like I have to be the first into battle..sometimes I want to be in the background.

What does it matter if it means your having fun right?

I was messing around on luxon aspenwood the other night, and used poisen lengthen bow with poisen wilderness survival skills etc...lol I havent had that much fun for a longtime. It was like I was a mesquito that kept biting the other team. Poisen here, poisen there lol.

I guess its a big no no to do this but what are your thoughts on playing your secondary as your primary profession?

I Mean I

I Mean I

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

in my guild hall afk

Ar Vin Pvp[AMp]

R/

Loooooooong time ago an idiot thought the same thing he got he pve ranger and put him full blood magic...

He called him "Touchy Ranger".

Wrath Of Dragons

Wrath Of Dragons

Burninate Stuff

Join Date: Aug 2005

New Mexico

E/Mo

i give you a few examples examples

Warrior/ele nuker <---no.
Assassin/ranger barrager <----yes
mes/ele <---yes
ele/mo healer <----so/so
ranger/necro MM <---no

basically, choose skills that are within the means of your primary.
dont use high-energy skills on a melee class, except for specific purposes(ie. shock)
and dont tank with a squishie unless you are very careful (dark aura necros seem decent)

gamecube187

gamecube187

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2006

Some people say that you should only use a classes secondary to improve its primary skills, not teh other way around, but have you ever heard of a critical barrager (A/R that uses a bow and critical strikes) or a touch ranger (R/N that uses life stealing touch skills)? They are both very good and used a lot.(and according to most people noob builds because they are supposedly hard to counter, or at least the touch ranger one is....haven't they heard of mesmers and interupts/anti-casting spells? )

It really just comes down to

Are you someone who is willing to try using secondaries more than primaries?

If you answered yes, then maybe you should look into it.

Zakarr

Zakarr

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Finland

Some professions are more suitable for different roles than other professions. Warriors have highest armor by default and least energy. Also their skills are mainly for melee attacks so there is not much options to use them at background. Using secondary as primary is sometimes good especially if you use also your primary profession's attribute. If you don't use any of them, secondary is just a weaker version of its primary profession.

vinegrower

vinegrower

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Song of the Forsaken

E/

Look inside the CD case for Prophecies, you will find a warrior attacking a bone dragon with a bow.

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

Personally I don't care what you do in PvE, it's your call.

In PvP it is really frustrating to see a warrior pull out a bow, or start casting meteor shower or any other such garbage. I don't have a choice about being on your team, at least do the rest of your team a favour by running a build that is effective. If you want to poison people, go a ranger. It will be far more efficient. Roll up a PvP character and play one.

If it's a character that is as/more effective as the primary, then I don't care, thumpers and touch rangers are good examples here. But I take issue with someone purposely gimping himself and his team just so he can see his warrior shoot a bow.

elLOCOmutha

elLOCOmutha

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Ascalon City, Tyria

Free Agent

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgb
Personally I don't care what you do in PvE, it's your call.

In PvP it is really frustrating to see a warrior pull out a bow, or start casting meteor shower or any other such garbage. I don't have a choice about being on your team, at least do the rest of your team a favour by running a build that is effective. If you want to poison people, go a ranger. It will be far more efficient. Roll up a PvP character and play one.

If it's a character that is as/more effective as the primary, then I don't care, thumpers and touch rangers are good examples here. But I take issue with someone purposely gimping himself and his team just so he can see his warrior shoot a bow.
See, its people like you that will make me want to do it even more now. I have played with a bow only (as a warrior) and been effective and helpfull to my team. I figure I paid for the game I can play anyway I want.

Rolling up a pvp character is all well and good, but i play in aspenwood not random arena etc.

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by elLOCOmutha
See, its people like you that will make me want to do it even more now. I have played with a bow only (as a warrior) and been effective and helpfull to my team. I figure I paid for the game I can play anyway I want.

Hold up here, you post a question asking how people feel, I respond and then you say you're going to do it more because I don't like it? If you're not going to accept a negative answer fairly, don't post the question.

Yes you have an effect and contribute something. Nonetheless, you contribute LESS than a primary would and aren't operating efficiently, therefore wasting time for the rest of the people.

On your I payed for the game, I can play anyway I want, I can say the same and that means quitting whenever I see people gimping themselves intentionally by running bad builds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elLOCOmutha
Rolling up a pvp character is all well and good, but i play in aspenwood not random arena etc.
You can take PVP characters to Fort Aspenwood so don't run that line.

lennymon

lennymon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Seattle

Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

poison w/r? use apply poison and cyclone axe its just more effective -works great with victory is mine by the way-. You *can* be a warrior archer but the fact remains that it's significantly less effective than you can be as melee warrior. There are several reasons for this: no expertise/smaller energy pool/2pips of regen mean you cannot maintain an effective presence on the battlefield with a bow for more than a few seconds, with a maximum of 12 in any of the rangering attributes your damage per second will be lower if even just with standard attacks than with a melee weapon, warrior skills and primary attributes dont lend themselves to this build very well. In general warrior is going to be a bit less flexible in the playing to secondary profession topic just by its very nature of being designed to be the extreme melee class, only thing funnier is an elementalist with a hammer.... Warrior primary attribute is a tad weak in its intrinsic effects in some ways also giving 10% armor piercing just doesnt help if you aren't swinging away.
Many combinations however ARE very effective, and contribute to team function and effectiveness. Ranger's primary reduces skills energy cost and can be applied to many other professions (including warrior), necro soul reaping has some great uses, even rit/necro splody minions are really cool (great crossover build using animate bone minions, explosive growth, death nova, putrid explosion...) and elementalists energy storage and 4 regen pips makes up for a lot of things, just not good armor and standing in melee range. With the exception of the geomancer tank hmm...

elLOCOmutha

elLOCOmutha

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Ascalon City, Tyria

Free Agent

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgb
Hold up here, you post a question asking how people feel, I respond and then you say you're going to do it more because I don't like it? If you're not going to accept a negative answer fairly, don't post the question.

Yes you have an effect and contribute something. Nonetheless, you contribute LESS than a primary would and aren't operating efficiently, therefore wasting time for the rest of the people.

On your I payed for the game, I can play anyway I want, I can say the same and that means quitting whenever I see people gimping themselves intentionally by running bad builds.




You can take PVP characters to Fort Aspenwood so don't run that line.
When you roll a PvP character, how do you get them to aspenwood luxon/kurzick?

dgb

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by elLOCOmutha
When you roll a PvP character, how do you get them to aspenwood luxon/kurzick?
Talk to the Luxon Diplomat or Kurzick Recruiter in Great Temple of Balthazar (it might be the other way round, Kurzick Diplomat/Luxon Recruiter).

majoho

majoho

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Denmark

As long as you're not gimping yourself I think it's fine - some combos don't make sense at all but other combos work very well.

Most of those using their secondaries well do so because they rely on the primarys primary attribute - as is the case with touch rangers and crit-barrage assassins.

Immaculata Regina

Immaculata Regina

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

DVDF

W/

I had great fun using my Warrior as a minion master in the Northern Shiverpeaks, with a lot of effort I could maintain about 2 bone fiends.
It worked reasonably well against opponents who were 10 levels lower than me and was fun to play .

Thom Bangalter

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

MO

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Immaculata Regina
I had great fun using my Warrior as a minion master in the Northern Shiverpeaks, with a lot of effort I could maintain about 2 bone fiends.
It worked reasonably well against opponents who were 10 levels lower than me and was fun to play .
rofl.

you guys also overlooked bunny thumpers; you guys must not pvp that much to overlook that one.

However, Warriors are probably the worst to cross class with because they lose so much efficiency not being in the frontline, and their primary attribute does nothing to supplement other professions; in fact it's probably the worst primary in the game.

rangers work well using necro or warrior skills because of expertise, which reduces energy costs; hence touchers (scrubby) and thumpers (awesome).

elementalists do well using monk skills (heal party specifically) because they have a large energy pool to use the skill without burning up a ton of energy (ether prodigy ftw). Additionally, they can use expensive mesmer skills (psychic distraction) due to energy storage, which gives them a very large energy pool to afford the skill. Necros can monk (blood spike, Iway, etc) because with high soul reaping they trade efficiency for spammability due to the energy gained through dying creatures and spirits.

This boils down to a very important concept in the game: efficiency. How efficient is the damage or support you're doing? When you cross-class, which guild wars is very supportive of as a game, you have to pause and think "Is what I'm doing actually worth it?" if the answer is no, you should probably cut it out and go back to raging in peoples faces with a big piece of metal instead of poisoning people with a bow in low-end pvp.

I should also note Mesmers that use elementalist skills in fast casting, in their case they trade quite a bit of efficiency in both damage and energy in order to apply more pressure by reducing the long cast times of the large AOE skills.

Of course, in PVE go crazy; It's just pve, and anyone that takes that seriously has some issues, because PVE is supposed to be fun, not competitive. I know I got to unwaking waters about 2 days after factions came out, and I was the only person in district, so I had to get a team of henchies. unfortunately those henchies didn't attack that dragon very well, so I would use apply poison, hit him with the bow, then wail on the afflicted rushing me. I still failed, and that's probably because warriors suck at doing anything besides being warriors.

Hockster

Hockster

Banned

Join Date: Jul 2005

Apply Poison works with any weapon. Cyclone Axe anyone. :P

Saiguku

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2006

I don't really care about Primary/Secondary, I used to play as a Ranger on my R/Mo and on my Rt/R. Like you said: you paid for it, you can play it as you want. Except: DON'T in Urgoz, I was on my Monk and we were looking for a tank. Ok, we find a Warrior and go...Only to find out 1 minute later he uses a bow.

Big_Iron

Big_Iron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

The Edge

Tormented Weapons [emo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

elementalists do well using monk skills (heal party specifically) because they have a large energy pool to use the skill without burning up a ton of energy (ether prodigy ftw).
QFT

While watching the playoffs I saw Eles spamming heal party in a couple matches and it seemed to be working really well for them. I forget the teams doing it, but if they were in the world championships, they must've known what they were doing.

Hockster

Hockster

Banned

Join Date: Jul 2005

High end GvG is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different than PvE. You want your ele's to be dealing damage, or providing wards. If your monks can't handle the healing, find different monks.

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

I feel that characters should be played as the player wants to...but if it is going to affect anyone else they should let them know. I have, on rare occaisons, been known to use my E/N to go MM when someone has been desperately wanting an MM in a team and there are no Necros to be found. I know I don't make a good MM...I don't expect to, hence I only ever do it when a group leader will not shut up about it. But Wrath of Dragons is correct with what they said in post #3...not all secondarys can be used as primary because it just wouldn't work. A while ago I witnessed an incredible sight. A Mo/W, in Zen Daijun, weilding an axe, tanking. Now, they may have been able to heal themselves but monk healers can be few and far between at the best of times...so behaviour like that is very selfish!

Personally, given the choice, I will always go with my primary profession, just because I chose Ele to play Ele...not to play Necro. If you're a Mo/W and want to tank...just be a Warrior!

Mordakai

Mordakai

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2005

Kyhlo

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockster
Apply Poison works with any weapon. Cyclone Axe anyone. :P
Are you talking about a Ranger/Warrior using apply poison and Cyclone axe?

Or are you talking about a W/R using Cyclone axe and apply poison?

ender6

ender6

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockster
High end GvG is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different than PvE. You want your ele's to be dealing damage, or providing wards. If your monks can't handle the healing, find different monks.
Um, High end GvG doesn't rely on ele's for dmg. E/Mo are there as a utility player that use spells like Heal Party/Blinding flash/wards etc. High end teams usually run balanced builds.

Perhaps if you are trying to surprise the opposing team with a gimick fast casting ele spike build...But that really is a stretch to compare to high end GvG.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the OP's topic, as people have posted there are many builds that utilize one's secondary as the primary. The rule of thumb is quite simple, experiment/evolve/find something that is effective and effiecent. Those who don't think outside of the box are limiting the creative experience of GW. Then there are those who don't check and balance themselves with rules of effectiveness and usually wind up ruining the game for those they play with.

Big_Iron

Big_Iron

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

The Edge

Tormented Weapons [emo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockster
High end GvG is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different than PvE. You want your ele's to be dealing damage, or providing wards. If your monks can't handle the healing, find different monks.
Uh, the World Championships weren't PvE.

Yanman.be

Yanman.be

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Belgium

[ROSE]

A/

You must be sure that your build is as optimal as possible though.

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

a mesmer with and ele energy pool could be interesting...as far as im concerned as long as the build works there isnt really a problem..just remember to tell any group you join

HawkofStorms

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

Hey, I love W/Rs who try to use a bow. Mainly because I play a mesmer in ABs. One cast of spirit of failure and ineptitude, and suddenly that warrior has no energy to do anything.

Hephaestus Ram

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

None

W/E

If I saw a warrior whip out a bow for anything other than pulling or just
because he wanted to show it off, I'd kick him so fast he'd get dizzy.

You have no real effectiveness as a ranger, if I want a ranger I'll get one.

Warriors are most useful for their armor, and yours is useless if you're
not in front. PvE is roleplaying, so play your role or make a ranger if
you want to play one.

I "might" try an out of character role once in a while with my guild
mates if they're willing to humor me. But I wouldn't inflict myself on
strangers without their approval.

I had a group with a r/mo the other day and she insisted on using
Gorrel's staff because it gave her 60 more hp.... yep we headed back
to town and regrouped without her.

cosyfiep

cosyfiep

are we there yet?

Join Date: Dec 2005

in a land far far away

guild? I am supposed to have a guild?

Rt/

I play mes/ranger, and use my bow and bow attacks more than anything.....it also helps when I try to pug and NO ONE wants a MESMER in their pug, but a barrage interupter is ok.....and if I need more energy I switch to my staff (helps with traps too), only thing is I dont get the 15 in wilderness or expertise, so what?
My guildee also plays a e/n and does mm on occasion....while my e/mo has had to play monk on more than one pug mission ----when the monk drops and I am the ONLY one with any healing and a resurrect!---have never tried it as the primary monk though (hm, with 93 energy it might be interesting.....nah).

lennymon

lennymon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Seattle

Odin's Hammer [OH] - Servant's of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

egad I'll take a mesmer over a third wammo (heck even a second)! Heh, I laugh every time I see this one tho:
Wammo LFG, No healer?... Im a heal monk

pug or henchway? hmm you make the call... yup henchway it is. And it'll likely be finished before that wammo finds a party.
No... I don't hate wammos. I use one often, I hate *those* wammos

Crimso

Crimso

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2006

PCformatforums[PCFF]

Me/Mo

I have a bow for my warrior its not really a weapon to use, its to get the attention of whomever i'm attacking with a 5/-1 vamp mod it can be useful for doing slight damage to get the enemy to attack you, other then that its useless if your trying to be a bow ranger with a warrior primary your making the one of the worst class choices in the game.

Mystic-

Mystic-

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

The only reason why anyone should bother using their second profession as their first profession is if their Primary Attribute contributes in a positive way to that profession. I.e. using a Ranger's Expertise, you can turn a Ranger into almost anything as it effects the cost of "skills" and allows them to be spammed much more which is why things like a Thumper and a Touch Ranger are so overly abused. Simply because they ARE overpowered. Using a Warrior as a first profession and trying to make it work with second profession skills isn't really the smartest idea. Small energy pool, 2 pips of regen... it just isn't enough to use any thing but warrior skills which are mainly adrenaline bassed therefor you don't need to worry about energy. A Necro's Soul Reaping allows it to have a constant energy supply when there are many spirits etc. dieing constantly which allows then to take on almost anything such as Monk and Ele which require alot of energy for good spells and thoses spells can be spammed due to the energy. A Monks Primary Profession, Divine Favour, effects absolutly nothing but Monk spells therefor having something else wouldnt be smart. An Ele's primary attribute, energy storage, gives a HUGE amount of energy and the elite Ele skill "Ether Prodigy" gives a constant high amount of energy regen which allows them to spam skills such as Heal Party (Monk) which is very famous in GvG as it relives alot of pressure from the monks. It can also spam Extinguish which is also very famous in GvG due to the recent surge of degen builds. The Mesmers primary attribute, Fast Casting, allows it to cast slow spells fast ^^. This makes the Me/E very popular as many Ele skills have high casting speeds and allows them to be cast quickly. Also the "Rezmer" a Me/Mo with a hard rez which is cast very quickly. The Assassin's and Ritualists' primary attributes are also not useful to other professions.

Horseman Of War

Horseman Of War

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

The Cult of Doom

P/

Ive heard people saying that the armor penatration works with a bow... but like the rest of these guys are saying, its not going to give you the whole picture on how the class really works... warriors in specific because they have much lower energy pool/energy regen than any other class.

Here's my OPINION of classes vs secondaries...

warrior- str usable by secondary assassin for dagger penatration, too low of energy to use caster class stuff. w/r should go poisoner or beastmaster

elemental- large energy pool works well for any caster class, glyphs are nice too

mesmer- combine with monk, rit, ele, necro and use fast casting+secondary (i.e. machine gun elemental)

ritualist- necro and ranger are the only ones able to take advantage of primary ability (minions and spirits) ritualist is a better secondary than primary in most cases

monk- can lose out on divine favor bonuses by using non-monk skills

assassin- its hard enough to get a group in pve without advertising that you are using your secondary profession exclusively lol

necro- better energy gain than a lot of classes. I did a long run of N/E using all soul reaping and fire skills with very fun results... you get energy back anytime you kill someone >

ranger- most versatile primary in the game IMO- I dont have one, but the expertise will reduce the energy cost of ANY skill or attack from the other classes, just not spells i think.


thats my take on it at least.

Horseman Of War

Horseman Of War

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

The Cult of Doom

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephaestus Ram

I had a group with a r/mo the other day and she insisted on using
Gorrel's staff because it gave her 60 more hp.... yep we headed back
to town and regrouped without her.

isnt that a mesmer weapon?? lolz

The Real Roy Keane

The Real Roy Keane

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Dublin, Ireland

Thumpers,fast cast M/E's and perhaps N/Mo's in a spirit heavy build are the only only ones that spring immediately to mind.

Valeria

Valeria

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Germany

PaRe

W/

I once tried a Ranger with minions + pet (in the first weeks of the game)
i didn't work at all and i never realized how moch fun it can be to play a minion master until i made a necro. Now my ranger is a happy toucher from time to time.
Same goes for a warrior ranger with a bow. If you don't have the energy to use your bow skills you'll never have as much fun as a real ranger (with expertise)
Of cause you can try something funny like a hammer monk and stuff but i would only do that while playing with henchmen or guildmates. Others will probably be pissed off.

The Herbalizer

The Herbalizer

<3 Ecto

Join Date: Jul 2005

a few i think can think of which use mostly 2nd prof skills: -

pvp fc ele

pvp nec/monk in iway teams

Eviance

Eviance

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

Eh I forget... o_O

Biscuit of Dewm [MEEP]

R/

LOL ranger ele with fire storm! I did this back till I left the jungle Of course this was also before the AOE nerf, so firestorm from me, my brother (n/ele), and my husband (mo/ele) - that was all she wrote for those mobs There are certain builds that require you utilizing your secondary proffession but in general its not recommended.

xerverkillah

xerverkillah

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

foo.bar

Ladies Rhythm and Movement Club [MOVE]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eviance
LOL ranger ele with fire storm! I did this back till I left the jungle Of course this was also before the AOE nerf, so firestorm from me, my brother (n/ele), and my husband (mo/ele) - that was all she wrote for those mobs There are certain builds that require you utilizing your secondary proffession but in general its not recommended.
lol i did that when i first played too! then it hit me how great and versatile pure rangers where.

I say its your game, play your character however you want. just make sure the build is effective

Malice Black

Site Legend

Join Date: Oct 2005

been there aswell...necro using death/fire...those were the days lol

When i got my spider i took my nec to HA and used some really awful build with some other forum users and we won twice against guild groups (the build was..bring whatever u fancied) think i bought some pets skills and rez with no points in anything..was fun watching the little bastard bite ppl tho

fenix

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

When my brother made his necro, he made the secondary Elementalist, and for half the game was using Nuking skills, as they did more damage. This was back when the monsters didn't move out of Firestorm + Lava Font + Meteor Shower It seemed to work well as he had constant energy from Soul Reaping, and the fact that PvE monsters are easy to kill