PVP -> Nothing New in Nightfalls

They always said that Nightfall will focus on PvE.

$100 says that night fall out sells factions a "pvp game"

When I mentioned the Team-iQ forums and Rifts forum I was referring to forums there which attract large amounts of PvP'ers and not to those teams themselves. These forums are where you find concentrated amounts of PvP players, thus are examples of the PvP community.

No, but they have everything to do with PvP. Who better to judge the quality of PvP than the people who spend many hours every week playing it?

When you post things that the community you're posting at as a whole does not agree of course you're going to get a beehive like response. I'm neither surprised nor irritated that alot of people who don't share my opinions have responded. I expected it. After all, this is a place that most PvP'ers wouldn't touch with a 39.5 foot pole.

And how many people in the PvP community have you spoken to about this? Most likely none. With that in mind you have no basis to claim that my opinion is not shared with the PvP community because after all you've never communicated with the PvP community.

If you don't believe me check it out yourself.

If only I could get the other 8 people on my side into the same vent channel I would agree AB's are organized. But in the end you still have to deal with the fact that the other 8 people on your team are more likely to run around like chickens with their heads cut off than actually help the battle; the same thing with RA, FA, and JQ.



I realize that FA and the other Factions formats have players. They just have a much smaller ratio of players to development time than other formats and could have been infinitely better had they been better thought out and tested. As is they only appeal to a very small niche in the community - those who want to PvP but have no idea how to. Had this development time been spent on something else, such as a bigger PvE area for PvE'ers and more balance testing for PvP'ers the game as a whole would have been improved. (You can't deny c2 was horribly balanced. Both new classes were horribly pigeon-holed upon release. Only now after 5 months of rebalances are they starting to flower.) Instead, though, they wasted the time on a new format that has the 2nd smallest pool of interest in it in the game, just behind the PvE challenge missions. In the end it was a waste and a mistake and just because a couple people like yourself enjoy it doesn't make it acceptable.



c4 will add new classes, new skills, maybe some new item mods, new guild halls, new TA maps, oh and a new PvP format that will further increase the gap between ANet and PvP'ers because ANet doesn't understand how PvP'ers work or what they want.

As for HA, it's been needing a rework for months now. The maps are old, the mechanics are stale, rank is worthless and the metagame is boring. It needs an injection of life, like, say, making it 6v6 and then reworking most/all of the maps.



If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is near enough to hear it, does it make a sound?



If you respond without flaming me then perhaps I would care about your response. Responses like this add nothing to the discussion.

*shrugs*
It would be interesting to see how much the community is actually divided into PVP "Ubermensch" and PVE Players. I can't be helped but i'm pretty sure that a very large scale of players is actually enjoying both sides of the game to a certain degree with the exception of a few hardcore freaks.

Now, just ask yourself who will A-Net rather tend to? Let's just assume PVE Freaks are 25% of the game, PVP Freaks are also 25% of the game and those that enjoy both and love changes in both are 50% of the game. Do you really think that A-Net will go ahead and bash 25% of PVE Freaks with the risk of alienating a huge potion of the 50% as well by purely focussing on PVP? And vice versa?
Won't happen. And now just look at your "PVP is superior" Opinion and ask yourself the same. Does it really hold more value than the opinion of anyone else? Especially when it comes to sales?
Face the hard reality, if you're focussing purely on one side of the game and constantly hate the other side, you're not playing the game as it is intended and all those discussions about "PVE not getting enough content" or "PVP not getting enough uber content for the Ubermensch" are downright - worthless. Simply because the true GW Player can and does appreciate new things in both parts.

If you don't like Anet's product, don't buy it

khift you spent a lot of time on that last post, so i feel its only fair that i respond.

My ignore list isnt big enough for all those people. If theyre like you (which you say they are) then I would never want to group with them. I play the game for fun, and all aspects of it for that matter. Make up your mind... does Rank matter or not? No? Then play for FUN. (not that gaining fame isnt fun imo)

the only thing unacceptable is your way of dealing with people who dont agree with you. Im not a fan of JQ and Aspenwood myself, but Im not going to say they are worthless due to my own preference. Some people are VERY good at it. Skill isnt the only thing that matters you need to apply the skill in context with your objective. Whether that objective be 10 wins in random arena, or Masters on a cantha mission. One's own ability to change their play style when needed can far exceed the usefulness of one's ability to play a single role for a single type of map.

lol. simply lol. If you dispise the game and its creators so much why do you play, exactly?

I thought you were a fan of organized blah blah pvp pvp pvp. Are you bored? Id say a better idea would be to simply add another hoh-style arena with 6v6/new maps- if thats what you are going for. You really sound like an anti-pvp player with this statement, you know. Personally I liked HoH how it was back at the release of chapter one-> and the place is a cesspool of iway/vimway clones these days. Rank=Worthless? I thought you were a Hardcore PvP player...

your comments are rude, and you have no respect for the people on this forum... just because we dont all agree with you.
And you do care enough to write up a multi-quoted thesis on it... so... discuss away.

Id say a high ranking guild like the ones you are talking about would be totally worthless teammates in many other aspects of the game. And believe it or not the Majority of guild wars players do both pve and pvp equally.


Although- in light of the amount of negativity you bring to the discussion- what do you think about an in-game voice chat system? Would that be a feature in chapter 4 that would help anet and your pvp-cult be a happy family again?


Personally, my favorite PvP is:
1. Random Arena - you never know what to expect (unlike HoH where you do) and you can test out builds (well maybe not everyone makes their OWN builds like I do...)
2. Alliance Battles - you can play whatever build you want, and you dont need to rez. You dont want to see me there if you are kurzick (as: ju ju zombie) because ill make you look like one of our turtles.

That's the problem with TA and HA.

I use ts/vent; I play organized PvP. Or rather, I have played organized PvP in the past. But the grand majority of players in the game have no desire/ability/etc to download vent. Most probably don't even own a mic.

Organization is a barrier to entry! If teams in PvP were generally disorganized, you could enter HA in minutes rather than having to spend an hour assembling a PuG.

With games like Counter-Strike (and other FPSers) is there's disorganized servers wherein you can go in and have disorganized fun. Meanwhile, there's tournaments for the player who takes things more seriously. In a traditional PvP MMO, there's solo hunting/world based PvP as well as more organized raids.

Alliance Battles, Quarry, and Aspenwood were attempts at adding disorganized PvP to GW. They failed because of weird technical issues (ie, waiting 20 minutes to enter a match in some cases) and a.net's unwillingness to punish leechers. (whereas, in FPS servers AFK players are often kicked by admins.) While I agree that the Luxon-Kurzick war (and it's associated gameplay modes) turned out to be a series of stupid mistakes, I can see what a.net was shooting for. If they had hit the target, I think the PvP community would have been pleased with Factions.

HvH is an interesting solution to the problem. With just a single real live player on each team, matchmaking should be easier. And -- while it's still probably possible to run a bot successfully in HvH, farmers won't be screwing fellow teammates. Besides, henchway is fun in Halls, and henchway vs. henchway is even more fun.

Assuming there's a ladder and the ability to drag in PvP characters, I can see HvH being a very successful PvP mode. It'll be nice to have a PvP mode that depends 100% on personal skill, instead of on teamwork (or a random luck of the draw, "hope your teammates don't suck" version of teamwork.)

Personally I really enjoyed the new pvp modes introduced. FA, JQ, and AB all contain new types of gameplay and a culture that is more relaxed than higher level pvp like HA and GvG. While JQ is sadly ignored, FA and especially AB are really fairly popular and many players enjoy playing them. I really think that Khift hurt his own argument by calling these modes "sewage". Its hard to get a friendly discussion going when you tell someone that the things they enjoy are worthless and devoid of value

Really, it all comes down to personal opinion. For some people Factions had bad PvE but good PvP. Others may feel that it has good PvE but bad PvP, or may love both or hate both. None of those opinions are more correct than any of the others.

I for one have to agree with changeing how HoH works acts plays forms up hell at this point I dont care...The place smells and looks like a ghost town anything to shake that place up is worth a try... Without some sort of breath of fresh air soon in HoH I fear it will soon disolve into 3 or 4 team builds and that is all you ever see there.(hell it is almost at that point now)

I am a n00by ranked 6 monk and ritlord I pve and pvp (HoH) equaly though I rarely gvg... Those are my main characters I play. Bigest love about HoH for me is the quick fast high pressure matches. Bigest hate about it...Is people rarely play diff unique builds there anymore. It seems to be all about fame farming to get the shiny emote..

My guild doesnt recruit people based on there rank ect.. But I have a few friends that are in guilds that do. They find it terribly annoying to recruit a rank 6 player ect. that has no clue how to do anything but iway/vimway og bloodspike ect. (not knocking those builds at all btw). This is why I think rank should be character based NOT account based. This would help in my opinion make rank mean something. This way when we see a rank 12 monk we know this rank 12 monk earned that rank by monking not by playing iway/vimway or any other monkless build.(just an example) How to make that happen at this point I honestly dont have a clue other than eraseing everyones rank and starting over again with a new system..(YIKES) Maybe simply starting a new ranking system for Hoh with new shiny emotes that are CHARACTER based not account based would motivate people to play outside there current builds and styles to earn them. /fame being the old emotes showing total fame on the account /rank showing the rank you have for that primary character class. Like I say I realy dont have a good solid answer as to what to do but something needs to be done. But I think this should be something that gets delt with in chapter 4... It is way passed time that rank and earning it not feel like farming for cash in pve.

This to me is probably the single bigest improvement that could be made to pvp.

I'm PvE oriented so this chapter looks real good to me.

That said, I long for GvG battles with 20 v 20 or more players not including NPCs. That is the kind of PvP I long for. Also, instead of just taking the GM, why not add some in instance objectives as well? That would be awesome!

I find this comment ironic considering you're the one flaming here.



Amity and Truth -> The truth of the matter is that PvE and PvP is not treated equally. Yes, there are people who enjoy both, alot more than most think. But that is no excuse to spend all the development time on one side of the equation and give the other side lemons. Think about this:

In Nightfall PvE is (rumored) to get 55 new explorable areas and 20 new missions plus hundreds of quests and two new challenge missions and a new elite mission.

PvP is (rumored) to get four new Guild Halls, ~four new TA maps, and a new format that most PvP'ers probably will not find enjoyable.

Both sections will get new skills, new classes, new armor and maybe some new item mods.

Now, do you realize how much development time it takes to make the PvE portion of this game? How much time is spent drawing concept art, making scripts, paying voice actors, making cinematics, drawing and texturing monster and NPC models, drawing and texturing entire zone maps, coding in hundreds of quests and twenty missions with (supposedly) unique goals, etc. etc. etc. How many man hours do you think goes into this? Over the course of the 1-year development cycle with 60? people on the job it's probably approaching ten thousand man hours.

How much time comparitively do you think they spend on making the four new Guild halls, four new TA maps, and a new PvP format? 300 man hours tops. Eight maps which are less than half the size of an explorable area plus however many maps HvH comes with plus the coding and balance testing for HvH. It is NOTHING compared to the time they spend making the PvE section of the game.

Is it not unreasonable to say that the PvP community would be outraged when they're given so little attention and what little novel and new stuff they are given are just lemons?




Clawdius_Talonious -> That's an old and flawed argument. I do like their content. I just wish they could improve it instead of degrade it. I care about the game thus I am vocal about what I dislike in the hope of bringing attention to that and maybe getting it fixed.



drekmonger -> You've got a decent point there. The problem is that disorganized PvP does not play to GW's strength. GW has the most amazing PvP engine in the entire MMORPG market. Why waste, why squander it by dumbing it down? I can understand the need for such a format, but why ONLY that kind of format? Why can't they throw the people who already are into PvP a bone?

I would not mind a pvp-style Mosh Pit. Click enter, go to staging area, from there you start out near a rez shrine/safe zone, and teleport to the battle field.

It would be totally pointless, but having a free for all blood fest would be awesome to kill some time/mix it up. Sure youd get a few people in there who could just own and own and own... so make it a king of the hill, with bonus faction awarded to the one person at the top.

You could even go so far as to say, wait to implement it until we can CHOOSE which god's faction we want...

give each 'starting zone' their own god even- maybe this is pushing the idea too far...

doing this, they could even implement the 6th god faction, stealing faction from those who worship the true gods with each kill.

throw in a wurm to ride around on, and what you have is pure carnage with a click of a button. I like my morning coffee with anarchy.

Have you, by chance, heard of a regular poster here named Ensign?

guilty as charged. Sorry I dont like griefers, elitists, etc putting others down simply to say that their opinions are the the only ones that are right. When I see someone taking such an opinionated stance, i tend to dish it back. What can I say, im predatory.



I agree with the above poster who says rank should be character based. Unfortunately that wouldnt work for people who use PvP toons as their primary characters (brb ill reroll a xxx)... so it will most likely not change.

Anet clearly know what majority in community wants from their Guild Wars.

Ensign is hardly the average PvP'er. He's just an all-around awesome guy. That doesn't change the fact that this board is extremely hostile towards PvP'ers.

Factions was really all about pvp, guilds, and their battles.
There was little solid/non-annoying pve quite frankly.

So much so I haven't played any GW in months now.
Nightfalls has skills to be considered and a PvP option that doesn't require a guild, and it's better than any simple 1v1 which in the rock paper scissors world really doesn't cut it.

Actually I'm intrigued, but disappointed it's tough once again to get concrete information. I plan to try out the weekend and see if I can answer a few questions I have - hopefully we'll be able to see a bit more into the 'hero'es.

After rereading my post I had a brainstorm or fart depending on who you ask lol....


Here is my idea in a nutshell... Keep HoH emotes account based as they are now... We will for the sake of discussion call Hoh emotes (rank)

But create new emotes that are pvp exp emotes that are primary profession (fame) only emotes.... Here is an example... For team arena's Random arenas and gvg. Give each win x amt of fame for these areas to the primary character class that player is playing. example... roll a pvp monk win a few matches earn fame for all monk primarys you have on that account.. and so on so that you could delete your pvp toon roll another one latter and still have that (fame) as a monk or mesmer or whatever. Simply put this rewards people for actually playing there characters and learning them in pvp. This in my opion would keep the less creative builds less popular because everyone would be working on there current favorite primary character classes (fame)

Simply you could be a rank 12 HoH player with a fame 6 monk a fame 2 mesmer a fame 1 warrior and so on.

I admit this might be a bit complex to ad into the game but in the over all scheme of things I think it would make pvp much more intresting and give all pvp'ers something to work towards on every single one of there characters pve or pvp... More play time in different characters = fresh breath into everything pvp.

Now see, this is where you and I have the biggest disagreement, I myself PVP every chance I get and I can understand what you're asking for, but I don't see how you're able to peer into the future.

You haven't even seen this new PVP mode that "most PVP'ers probably will not find enjoyable", you don't know how much control or how easy to exert control over your NPC heros, and although we don't know how much micromanagement the heros will require to be effective we do know that we'll be able to activate hero's skills manually according to the information that has been released.

What if you're able to make a PVP only character and customize three henchmen of your choice, and play this mode with PVP only characters? At this current point in Nightfall's development many of these decisions have been made yet we don't currently know what they are right now. We also do know for a fact that nothing about Guild Wars is set in stone, due to the streaming updates and potential for changes coming with new builds.

There are a great many of us who enjoy the PVE when we can't PVP, but I for one think that the PVP with Heros has a lot of potential, so please don't sit and complain about something you've never even had the chance to see, and state that "Most PVPers will ______"... You aren't most PVPers, you're just one person

Is that a fact? Maybe if those PvPers were nicer to other posters, these threads wouldn't devolve into flamefests.

Saying "most PvPers" think this, or "most PvEers" think that, is very presumptuous.

Fact: The Hero challenge will be a whole new way to play PvP. It's huge. Whether or not it will be popular or fun remains to be seen, but you can't say it's not new PvP content.

He can say it, he won't be correct, but he can spout fallacy if he wants to.

I stand corrected!

Factions wasnt any more PvP based than Nightfall is turning out to be...

What did Factions get PvP?
4 Guild Halls
Skills
Few maps in the arenas
Alliance Battles
The two missions, Quarry and the other one*

*Note, Jade Quarry and that other mission are not PvP to me. PvP is Player vs Other Players, those missions have OBVIOUS PvE goals even though you CAN technically kill the other players in the mission, this isn't your goal and really amounts to little in getting to these goals.

Nightfall?
4 Guild Halls
Skills
2 New Arenas
*I can pretty much tell you they'll be a few arena maps too, I bet ya*
HvH*

*As it is described now. As they are promoting it, it is PvP with HenchWay (except customizable henchies). I can call it PvP as long as the GOAL as a Player Vs Player oriented goal - no matter how many NPCs are involved.

Well then god forbid if the Khifts three T's say you're not playing pvp. I guess all you people in FA, JQ, RA, and ABs aren't really pvp'ing you're just versing another player but you're not pvp'ing remember that. Khift has spoken.

Yeah, if only this was the true case and not just the ramblings of someone who is trying to make a point that is going nowhere because the foundation of their arguement is just plain wrong. PvP is Player vs Player, if you're fighting another player and not the environment you've got a PvP.

I too was slightly dubious about the PvP content of Nightfall. There was a thread I started on another Guild Wars forum quoting Gaile Gray saying that Factions was PvP oriented, and Nightfall would be more PvE oriented. It caused a bit of a stir at the time, and much controversy was raised.Since starting that thread, I have heard a very different and far more promising story...


However, we shall wait and see. I have faith in the Devs to produce something that has appealing features to all.

As for HvH; I see that more as a possible bridge between PvE and PvP, to help more players get into the extensive end-game content that Guild Wars offers. I don't see it as any kind of serious PvP, certainly not meriting a ladder or ranking system. I could be wrong.

Now how much you wanna bet theres going to be new titles for being really good at HvH?

That will once and for all, show whos the most awesome


But seriously, get a HvH title, and you'll probably get more respect, same as a illustrious hero or something. The title will mean alot, unlike Friend of the Kurzicks.

Fort Aspenwood?

Just curious, what if the goal is to capture a flag or kill a ghost. Is that not PvP either?

Ok, again, let me focus on why Heroes vs Heroes is such a good idea.

1) Many of us who play GW used to play FPS games. In an FPS it is possible for one person to dominate a game because of his incredible skill, whereas to this point this has been near-impossible in GW due to the team nature of the game.

2) ANet responded to this (among other reasons probably) by giving us Alliance Battles and PvP missions where teamwork was not as strongly stressed.

3) However, in those modes noobs and leachers still made it hard to win and people still screamed... so "scrimmage mode" was put into place for testing builds, practicing, and 1v1 "grudge matches."

4) Even so, the GW classes are not balanced for 1v1.

SO, WHAT ANET HAS DONE IS BRILLIANT. We now have a mode that is perfectly balanced (in theory) for players to test their 1v1 abilities.

I'm personally looking forward to this because it really allows for player creativity. While cookie-cutter builds will probably still happen, they shouldn't be as frequently used in this mode as in others. After all, Heroes won't object to you giving them strange bars and they won't yell at you for being an idiot. Actually, I'd be willing to place 100k + millions of ecto that many of the creative builds that emerge in this mode will CARRY OVER into HoH and GvG (no, I'm not being serious about the bet, but you get the idea)

In my opinion, this new PvP is far more "elite" than the PvP presented in Factions because for the first time, individual skill will be more important than team skill.

Sorry if I rambled on!

^^^
Gets it

My feelings

PvE = Fighting Against NPC/Monsters
PvP = Fighting Against other human players.

Now I do feel there are breakdowns within each group

PvE = Quests, Missions, Co-Op Missions, Exploring, Challenge Missions
PvP = RA, TA, HoH, GvG, AvA, FA/JQ

Now as a casual player that only did PvE, Factions managed to draw me to Ava, FA/JQ and I could see GvG down the road as well as my love of PvE.

From the looks of things, I can see ava/FA&JQ removed and replaced with the Hero's 1v1 (aka alternate 4vs4) which I hope is not the case but it may be. Plus we don't know if there going to change any current pvp formats, I tend to think they will with all the "weekend" events. It screams to me beta testing styles.

Main problem with a lot of pve content and less pvp content is simple. Pve is crappy to play if you don't have really good group. People are tards who won't take you into the groups if you don't fit into healer/tanker/nuker holy trinity. SS necros and MM necros are still permitted. Try to complete orozar quest in sorrow's furnace as an assassin. The whole outpost is full of oro farm tards who only take eles, monks, tanks and necros. I couldn't get a groups in 2 hours. And that is why pve sucks. Can't enjoy it because people won't take you into groups unless you fit specific build for that mission or general holy trinity build.

A note to all. If you report a post for flaming. Be sure you aren't the one inciting it. When you flame someone else, and then they respond with a flame, you are just as guilty as them. Reporting them and asking for their post to be removed is silly.

Also, this thread has turned into yet another PvP vs. PvE debate. Until people learn to keep their opinion on whether PvP or PvE suck to themselves, you will continue to see threads like this closed.