Signet of Might - Ridiculous Annihilation

Running anti- signet of might was fun as well... ignorance/sig of humility ftw.

well a rank reset for those gained through the abuse of this bug should be fair.

I think they should just reset the ladder, but to ban guilds for this is abit harsh. Especially because you'd have to determine who knowingly abused it and who just happened to use the signet thinking it worked the the way it was supposed to. And really you can't prove much there.

How would change the rank of only the abusers without screwing over some team that didnt abuse it to get their rank?

The only thing they can do about the abusers is rolling the game back till before the preview event, which they won't do of course. Banning abusers is also not possible since it will cause the amount of whining and crying, unpreceeded in Guild Wars history, given the scale of abuse. So they won't do nothing about it, SRY.

Dear A-net,

Thank you for your prompt action in regards to the signet of might bug.

Due to the unexpected bugs that can pop up during the initial release and testing game-wide of newly introduced skills, I ask that you seriously consider locking the Ladder during the first few days, maybe up to a week, after any new skills are introduced.

I don't feel it's necessary to lock the ladder after established skills are nerfed/buffed. But if a new skill is bugged, even a few hours of GvG battles will throw the Ladder out of whack - or call into question the valididty of the standings at the very least. I think locking the ladder would be an equitable solution to the problem.

Exactly. There is very little that can realistically be done *after* this sort of thing has already taken place. So it just sort of comes down to the origonally, really goddamn obvious course of action : FREEZE THE £$!&'ING LADDER BEFORE EVENT'S.

Seriously, I want to know WHY this isn't STANDARD PROCEDURE. Now. FFS.

Alpha testers can't find everything, the population is pretty small.

No need to do a full rollback, reverting the guild ladder should be enough.
And this exploit is also used in RA and TA.

That might help, but still, smart abusers will just refrain from using or talking about the abuse and then unleash it when the ladder gets unlocked... what Anet needs to do is to hire a larger team of testers, preferrably GW pro-level players.


Not that any of this affects me, anyway; I basically just play PvE and the occasional RA/Fort Aspen...

and now the exploit is fixed, how long are they going to stay there? they'l be eaten alive, so in a weeks time, its not an issue



much ado over no real biggie

I am quite sure we won't go a "game rollback." There may be other means at our disposal, but a full rollback of every account in the game is a bit over the top.

If anyone has reports of guilds who abused this bug, please PM me. I know of the one, mentioned just above. ^

What about the issue of freezing the ladder, Miss Gray?

Acknowledge and move on.

won't happen. would deprive anet of several thousand beta testers who wouldn't bother playing with frozen ladder.

Well, then I guess everyone loses. Nice...

Except ANet. Why am I not surprised... I mean, it wouldn't be hard to test these skill's in various situation's in-house, and I'd find it hard to believe otherwise.

And maybe if freezing the ladder wouldn't work, they could halve all gains from ladder play during "abuse vulnerable" periods, i.e. during and shortly after preview event's or new campaign launches.

I carry a lot of respect for Gaile, but I'm not sure why guilds should be punished for a mistake A-net made.

I see it this way: A-net makes the game and the rules. If the rules are unfair, it's the fault of A-net, not the player who is simply taking advantage of the abilities at his/her disposal.

Yes, because the guilds were forced to use Signet of Might in that manner.

Signet of Midnight is not the only skill that ever worked differently than the description states. There are still skills that exist that don't behave as the descrition states (ex: Draw Spirit http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Draw_Spirit), but I don't see why A-net should start punishing people for using these skills now just because their mistake caused an imbalance they didn't anticipate.


I didn't really mind when the preview event was delayed and I really haven't minded when A-net goofed on other little things in the past, but I will really be dissapointed in them if they follow through in punishing guilds for their mistake. =/

Sorry for the confusion, but i do play more games than just GW. many of those games run antcheats software like punkbuster. And everytime someone get catch they have excuses like "dont ban me, i just did it for fun and a laugh"... and then i just press the "permanent ban" button extra hard

But in my book (i am 100% anticheat) abusing bugs/exploits is a cheat too...

Not talking about Signet of Midnight here.

Yes, the fact that the skill was not working correctly was Anet's mistake. The fact that they allowed open guild latter during a preview event was also short sighted on their part, especially given the fact that this has happened before. Finding out the skill is glitched when using it for the first time is okay. How else would they have known it was glitched? But once they realized the glitch, they exploited it. The only reason they got to the rank that they did was because they were exploiting something they knew wasn't supposed to be that way. Anet didn't make them do that, they chose to do that.

Was it cheating? No, I wouldn't exactly call it that. That doesn't mean that the way they behaved wasn't wrong. Do they deserve to have their guilds banned? No, I don't think so. They aren't entirely blameless though, people need to stop acting like they are.

They definetely DON'T deserve punishment. The shame is enough. Because they can't win with fairplay, they use exploits. And I hope they are happy with their "accomplishment"... Using it once is okay, just to see how it works and have some fun. Abusing it for personal matters is kinda lame. So the only thing they've done wrong is showing us that HA players can't play GvG.

There is a big difference in discovering a glitch and reporting it and abusing it. If you used it one time to try it, because that's the purpose of beta testing - to try out everything and report it, it'd be ok. Abusing it for your own good is another thing.

this bug was like throwing money out the window and then calling everyone who picks up your money a thief, this is the reason why not every guild deserves a punishment

The ones that used it in gvg and ended up in top 10 do deserve public humiliation tho.

You know I felt that way when you did it because a bug managed to screw up the PVE meta (economy)...

A-Net's attitude towards it's ladder is getting ridiculous. From the inconsistant application of punishment to letting the ladder be open to all abuse during preview weekends, it's just crazy.

I'm glad we had the preview, it was interesting but the ladder should have been locked during it. I don't even blame the guilds for using the bug, quite frankly it's a play to win game and A-Net is so inconsistant in their attitudes towards fair play (you can give some -25 on a smurf, that's not an issue at all but resigning, oh that's evil, but only if you're the team that resigned, not that benefited) that there was a fair chance no action would have been taken. In a 50/50 situation, with a huge ammount to win if the roll goes your way some people wer eallways going to try it.

It's time to get serious about running this ladder A-Net, get someone to police it because at the moment as an impartial referee you're doing a shocking job.

I'd like to discuss this with you. I'm in the middle of pressing "send" on an email meeting invitation to several key team members involved in various aspects of the game. As I see it, there are a few possible outcomes. I am not commenting in any way on whether they are possible, moral, or reasonable. But here are your assorted suggestions, and I'd like to know how the community feels about them:

1. Do nothing. This isn't a world championship, the hours of the exploit were short, and those who used it know they did, and the community as a whole basically knows they did, too.
2. Spend time to try to identify who used the exploit and take away their wins or disqualify them from a prize. Keep in mind this may not even be possible, and could be very time consuming. Keep in mind that with a game 5 weeks from release, if this requires a lot of team time, there could be sacrifices in taking this step that would affect all players.
3. Roll back all ladder games to a place before the exploit became widely used. Again, this may not be possible, but if it were possible, it would most likely not be as time consuming as Number 2.
4. Roll back the servers to yesterday. I feel very sure that this is not going to happen, but I had to add this since some have suggested it.

Again, I repeat: I am not saying that any of these (except the first) are technologically possible. I am simply asking you to weigh the various factors, step back, and consider how you would handle this, were you in our position. And it's pointless to talk about "freezing the ladder before events." We can talk about the future in the future. Let's talk about the here and now, now.

One more thing: This is not a vote. It goes without saying that for issues of this magnitude, we will be making the decision about what happens. If 100% chose Z, we may well need to go with A. So this is informal and informational only. Thanks for your thoughts.

Vote 3

I'm glad we got an answer. Well, my own opinion is that a rollback is not a good option. Not at all. I did a lot of pve today ^^. But if the people who abused this thing manage to get #1 place I'd really be disappointed, and not only me :/... My guild doesn't play HA at all because of all the FOTM build abusing. Now the abusers started ruining GvG... I don't like this -_-

IMO (3) is your best option. It doesn't impact the PVE world which is good as PVE did nothing in this and fixes the options.

If you're interested here is my critique of the other options.

(1) - See my above post - basically, you're going to reinforce allready existing opinions that you are inconsistant and arbitrary about the ladder and justice relating to it, something which will be destructive to you (sorry for the use of you, I mean A-Net, not you personally Gaile) in terms of PVP credibility. Your PVP attraction is very strongly based aroudn having a credible tournament and if that is destroyed then it's GG to Guild Wars PVP in my eyes.

(2) - I just don't think this is feasible on a number of levels. First off you can take away wins but then you're going to have echoes. Abuse Guild A beat Legit Guild A, dropping their rating. Legit Guild A then beat Legit Guild B, impacting B's rating and so it echoes through. Secondly if you do this you can bet next time the chapter 4 preview comes bugs are going to slip through because nobody is willing to try out things that could be broken - again it comes to credibility. If you think that's the right action to take say so and comment that in future it will be the punishment and follow that line but don't arbitrarily enforce it now.

(4) - Unecessarily impacts the PVE world and I suspect that it's going to be a lot of work.


In that meeting however I really think you need a lessons learnt session. Ladder locks during beta events are necessary (and probably the first week of Nightfall), this was shown after the first event with the D/Mo swarm and definately this time. The rules need a re-write as well, on a general level and then they need to be followed. If you say abuse of a bug is punishable by banning, then it gets banned no matter how little the impact is. If ladder manipulation is the same, then I don't want to see smurfs, or explicitly allow smurfs on the grounds that you can't reasonably deal with them. At the moment any guild trying to play within the rules is easy fodder for the horde of guilds that are prefectly happy to work within the grey areas around the side. Yes they are allways going to exist, but at the moment there is a lot of grey that could easily be cut out.

[QUOTE=Gaile Gray]

1. Do nothing. This isn't a world championship, the hours of the exploit were short, and those who used it know they did, and the community as a whole basically knows they did, too.

According to several posters the bug is already fixed. So would it not separate the men from the boys quickly?

I "vote" (since it's not a vote ) do nothing. The bug has been fixed, the team's efforts are probably better spent with all the end-of-development tasks left for nightfall, than to a rollback and deal with all the grief you'll catch from people who lose out on non-cheat wins. The guilds that abused this will soon be back to where they really belong, for such is the way of the ladder. As far as I see, the only downside to this is that some people have more fame, and some more unlocks that they don't "deserve". I wouldn't cry over it.

So, Gaile, I personally would be fine and dandy with the whole team moving forward instead of spending a lot of time taking corrective action on something that no one's going to remember or care all that much about in a month.

I'd like to comment on something: Locking the ladder during the Beta Test sounds like a poor idea to me. During the events, we're able to have tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people try out the skills, reveal the exploits, and generally help us make a better game. They get the fun of an early look, and the interest of seeing how things are and, upon release, what they become.

To lock the ladder during an event sounds counterproductive to me. We want and need people playing PvP, and locking the ladder will discourage that.

Hmmm... maybe the answer is some sort of "event ladder" that has no impact on the overal system. So if you find an exploit, good job, but it's not going to give you a leg up on a championship or a fast run for a trophy.

I just don't see where locking the ladder is the best idea, for it seems that the number of people playing will drop dramatically, which means we'll have less testing and less feedback.

QFT. Having clearly stated rules, that are actually followed 100% of the time would be amazing. So would locking the ladder durring Beta events.

Option 3 is your best choice.

Well Gaile, you have a point. It is all about testing and observing the gameplay behaviour. But we are talking about the GW and GWF ladder here. I personally noticed lots of imbalanced skills and I am sure they are going to be nerfed when Nightfall is released. But right now this event is affecting the ladder directly and that doesn't seem right. Having an event ladder is a pretty nice thing to have. But when you TEST thing they are not supposed to affect the actual game. Right? What if there was a skill that could kill anyone in the danger zone? Imagine that there was a greater exploit and all the hard work some guilds had to do to get their ratings are worth nothing after the exploit took place... The situation right now is pretty much the same. Although the damage taken is not so much.

GG I get nothing against you, and I am grateful for all that you did.
However wouldnt it be better for you to find out what the dev can do and let us choose, then having us choose then risck the chance that you might need to tell us "sorry I know you all want this to happen but we cant do it"??

anyway, if it possible I will ask for 2, its sound hard, but there are Guilds that play a fair game during that time, and I find it unfair to those guild. Yes, I know sometime sacrifices are needed, but its always better to do things right and with out sacrifices

Well, I understand what you're asking, but I'd rather have the information today than wait until tomorrow and ask you your opinions. You see, I'm not asking for a vote, or for a judge and jury system. I'm just thinking, "In an ideal world, with the ideas I've shared, what are your thoughts."

It is known I believe, that identifying all the guilds that used the exploit is pretty much impossible -_- It is going to take tons of time. The best way out of this is the hardest one. I mean would be the hardest one.

I don't agree with any form of roll back as once the event is over, guilds that took advantage of the bug will find themselves falling off the ladder quite rapidly due to not having any actual skill.

That said however, the guilds that did take advantage of the bug, and really, there are only a few, directly violated a rule that they agreed to abide by when they created their account. Rule 18 from the GW rules of conduct

Because of this violation, not only have these guilds been able to farm a huge amount of guild rank and HoH rank in a fairly short period of time, they have also been able to farm a rather large amount of faction and thus probably have managed to unlock every new skill in the game in just a few short hours. This is just as serious as the Ascension / Doppleganger bug that was fixed on June 17, 2005. It's my opinion that similar punishments should be given out.

I fail to see how this was an "exploit" the teams used skills that were there to be used.

Lets have a look at the evidence..

Did these "offending" guilds make the skills? No
Did they use a certain build to their advantage? Yup
Could the build be countered? Of course, anything can be countered IF you use that thing called a brain.
Should they be punished? Hell no, they used a viable build at the time
Is life fair? No

Wish I dealt with softies like you in the real world, I'd be even richer.

Dont like my opinion? Tough, some of you will get a big shock when you hit the real world away from mummy and daddy.