That is my favorite class to play.
Will Monks be forced into early retirement?
Dixie Lady
With the advent of monk heroes (I had 2 monks for my necro), will 'real' monks no longer be needed?
That is my favorite class to play.
That is my favorite class to play.
Xenex Xclame
If we are to follow your view, then the same would apply to warriors,rangers,mesmers,necros ,every class.
You gotta remember they are still henchies just 10 times better, sure the ranger hero would be able to interupt like no player can same applies for mesmer but there is still a big difference between humans and computer controlled heros, humans have brains.
So no monks will not be forced into retirement , its just that those people that henched the game will now need human players even less for missions like THK.But the enjoyment of playing a online game is to play with other people.
And even if nobody asks for monks anymore you can just do the same and go with heros.
You gotta remember they are still henchies just 10 times better, sure the ranger hero would be able to interupt like no player can same applies for mesmer but there is still a big difference between humans and computer controlled heros, humans have brains.
So no monks will not be forced into retirement , its just that those people that henched the game will now need human players even less for missions like THK.But the enjoyment of playing a online game is to play with other people.
And even if nobody asks for monks anymore you can just do the same and go with heros.
Vilaptca
I think Monk players will not be forced into retirement, but something like a Warrior or Ranger might.
Koss seemed to do quite well with some of my own Warrior builds. I play a Warrior though. Dunkaro failed miserably at healing. I do not play Monks.
See where I'm going with this? If a player doesn't understand how to play a Monk, for example, me, then that players Monk hero will be just as bad. So naturally I'll still be looking for a Monk for my group, but I won't be looking for a Warrior, because I know my Koss is good enough that I won't have to deal with a PuG Warrior who doesn't know what they are doing.
Make sense?
Koss seemed to do quite well with some of my own Warrior builds. I play a Warrior though. Dunkaro failed miserably at healing. I do not play Monks.
See where I'm going with this? If a player doesn't understand how to play a Monk, for example, me, then that players Monk hero will be just as bad. So naturally I'll still be looking for a Monk for my group, but I won't be looking for a Warrior, because I know my Koss is good enough that I won't have to deal with a PuG Warrior who doesn't know what they are doing.
Make sense?
NinjaKai
Its not like heroes know how to play a build just because you put the skills in their bar. Human logic will always prevail over AI. (Unless your in a PUG.)
Vilaptca
Quote:
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Originally Posted by NinjaKai
Its not like heroes know how to play a build just because you put the skills in their bar. Human logic will always prevail over AI. (Unless your in a PUG.)
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I'm sure something like a Bonder monk or Minion Bomber or even a 55 monk are just something that the AI wouldn't understand, but there are good builds out there that are just so simple that even a regular henchmen could play them.
kvndoom
Monks who suck will simply be replaced with heroes (of course you gotta team with them to find out they suck at first...). Good human monks, and guildies who play monk will always be as valuable as they have been before now. Heroes simply take a huge chunk of the sting out of henchway. You control their skillset and their attributes, but they're still henchies at heart.
But I do like the flexibility. A lot.
But I do like the flexibility. A lot.
Ruricu
The introduction of the hero just changes the heirarchy of PvE group-filler... It is now:
Guildie on Vent > Hero > Henchman > PuG
As opposed to:
Guildie on Vent > Henchman > PuG
Guildie on Vent > Hero > Henchman > PuG
As opposed to:
Guildie on Vent > Henchman > PuG
Goonter
I dont know what will happen but I dont think a monk will have a hard time landing a group if they want one in nightfall.
What I hope does happen is a group will no longer have to beg and wait for a monk to join thier group by replacing a would be player with a hero.
What I hope does happen is a group will no longer have to beg and wait for a monk to join thier group by replacing a would be player with a hero.
=HT=Ingram
If anything now we monks will not need you all as much as we can have decent heroes to dominate the game ourselves. there may be some areas that We can not take a hero however... As in the UW, FoW and Elite missions...
Cause I know for a fact if they allow heroes in UW ecto/shard prices will plumit overnight, cause solo monk 55 with hero SS builds will be back overnight.
Wait a min... on second thought nevermind. lets allow this...
Cause I know for a fact if they allow heroes in UW ecto/shard prices will plumit overnight, cause solo monk 55 with hero SS builds will be back overnight.
Wait a min... on second thought nevermind. lets allow this...
gr3g
I think most pug warriors, rangers, and possibly necros and eles will be outdone by heroes. I briefly made Dunkoro into a Mo/N passive orders necro and the AI played it more competently than some r6 orders necros I've seen. The AI is also a capable minion bomber as it has no trouble at all with targeting minions for Death Nova. Sousuke was extremely competent with a dual attunements air spiker build, and if the preview event were a bit longer I would have experimented with more ele builds.
However, monks and mesmers need intelligence and finesse, and that an AI will never have. So, no, monks aren't going out of business.
Para and Derv, dunno. The P and D henchies seemed to die a whole lot, but the hench D has a pretty idiotic build so it's no surprise.
However, monks and mesmers need intelligence and finesse, and that an AI will never have. So, no, monks aren't going out of business.
Para and Derv, dunno. The P and D henchies seemed to die a whole lot, but the hench D has a pretty idiotic build so it's no surprise.
saphir
i only got the first monk hero, but he would often be casting a 8 sec rez in the midst of a furious battle instead of keeping himself and the other heroes in my little party of 4 alive. I would be too busy trying to stay alive to have time to micromanage my monk hero
Fates
They do need to make one small change to the heros. Allow us to designate some skills as "cast only when told."
It was nice that my ranger would cast her traps every single time we stopped moving for only a couple seconds, but ya, the monks casting rez in the middle of battle was a little annoying. On the other hand, Koss was very quick with his sig when the monk went down, was kinda nice.
It was nice that my ranger would cast her traps every single time we stopped moving for only a couple seconds, but ya, the monks casting rez in the middle of battle was a little annoying. On the other hand, Koss was very quick with his sig when the monk went down, was kinda nice.
Bibblenorn
I had a problem with that first monk hero too. I put remove hex in his line-up... big mistake. He runs around casting it for no particular reason. I stand still in an area with no monsters (all dead), and he runs back and forth casting the darned thing. *eyeroll*
Jeff Highwind
My Dunkoro hero loves to tank. No freaking clue why.
Gigashadow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ruricu
The introduction of the hero just changes the heirarchy of PvE group-filler... It is now:
Guildie on Vent > Hero > Henchman > PuG As opposed to: Guildie on Vent > Henchman > PuG |
I created a boonprot hero monk and Word of Healing hero monk, and they both worked quite well. PvE was already easily henchable, of course, so I'm hoping the difficulty of Nightfall is much higher than the other campaigns, given that you can customise heroes.
gwhobo
No I don't think Monks will be replaces, because many Real Person Monks normally have a certain order and cycle of skills they will use, and Heroes don't follow that order and do not heal as efficiently, but they will definately be used in Missions such as Vizunah Square (assuming that we can use them in Prophecies/Factions, But even so, there will be a Nightfall "vizunah" mission where monks are very very scarce) But they will also beat some PuG Monks in the way that they better reflexes and skills, and may even beat some Adept Monks as well, who knows though, we haven't exactly been able to compare them side by side yet.
Another Point someone else said, is that humans have brains, I don't know if others do this, but I am a WoH Monk, and in places where I know they won't suddenly go from 50% to Dead in a single blow, I will wait until just below 50% to cast WoH to get that huge chunk of extra Heal, I doubt that Heroes will have the ability to do that and end up casting 2 spells for what could have been healed in one.
Other classes may be not Completely replaced, but in some instances it may be better to bring a Hero Nuker, or Ranger because a PuG Ranger thinks he's a tank and will pull a group instead of letting a warrior with a Longbow as a secondary Weapon pull. Again, none know and has never known exactly what the future may bring, but we will find out all the same soon enough
P.S. Guys, if heroes do replace some classes, don't exclude them completely, be nice and let them in (If you can still beat the mission anyway) because everyone hates being that Assassin who no1 ever lets in their mission group.
Another Point someone else said, is that humans have brains, I don't know if others do this, but I am a WoH Monk, and in places where I know they won't suddenly go from 50% to Dead in a single blow, I will wait until just below 50% to cast WoH to get that huge chunk of extra Heal, I doubt that Heroes will have the ability to do that and end up casting 2 spells for what could have been healed in one.
Other classes may be not Completely replaced, but in some instances it may be better to bring a Hero Nuker, or Ranger because a PuG Ranger thinks he's a tank and will pull a group instead of letting a warrior with a Longbow as a secondary Weapon pull. Again, none know and has never known exactly what the future may bring, but we will find out all the same soon enough
P.S. Guys, if heroes do replace some classes, don't exclude them completely, be nice and let them in (If you can still beat the mission anyway) because everyone hates being that Assassin who no1 ever lets in their mission group.
LordDeArnise
Quote:
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Originally Posted by saphir
i only got the first monk hero, but he would often be casting a 8 sec rez in the midst of a furious battle instead of keeping himself and the other heroes in my little party of 4 alive. I would be too busy trying to stay alive to have time to micromanage my monk hero
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I still think player-controlled characters will have their place, especially monks. Some of the above posters have stated why earlier. However, if there is one class that may get shafted come Nightfall, then yes, it will be the warrior, as a good number of players will go with Koss.
MMSDome
you may be able to determine skills and attributes but humans will always remain smarter. (most of the time)
draxynnic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LordDeArnise
It's not just Dunkoro that seems to want to res in the middle of a fight, it applies to the healer henchie as well.
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Unless his AI is significantly improved, for the love of Dwayna don't give him any smiting attack skills!
I gave him Spear of Light, and he seems to get it in his head that if he decides to cast it and his original target dies, he has to cast it anyway. If his original target was the last of a mob, he'll go and find the nearest other monster to hit.
This happened to me twice before I stripped it out. First time was at the end of a nasty battle and he went and hit a member of a mob I was hoping not to aggro. Second time his chosen target was behind a wall, and he ran straight through another mob to get it.
He seemed to be much better behaved with Judge's Insight, however.
prodigy ming
i don't know about monks. but assassins will be force to retire for sure
Age
The thing you got to remeber is that you have to supply your hero with weapon,shield and offhands etc.I don't think we will see the end of the use of real ppl vs AI anytime.I can use my heros else where but in a mission what would you really prefer.I did a good healing build on my Monk hero but it lacked energy and so did my Warrior hero which i made a W/Mo for ressing they did pretty good but i haven't tested them in a real mission.Who knows what the missions are going to be like in NF?I don't think i would take these heros in a mission like THK the commands my help or any mission with an NPC you have to keep alive.
Vilaptca
Quote:
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Originally Posted by draxynnic
While on the topic of Dunkaro...
Unless his AI is significantly improved, for the love of Dwayna don't give him any smiting attack skills! I gave him Spear of Light, and he seems to get it in his head that if he decides to cast it and his original target dies, he has to cast it anyway. If his original target was the last of a mob, he'll go and find the nearest other monster to hit. This happened to me twice before I stripped it out. First time was at the end of a nasty battle and he went and hit a member of a mob I was hoping not to aggro. Second time his chosen target was behind a wall, and he ran straight through another mob to get it. He seemed to be much better behaved with Judge's Insight, however. |
AuraofMana
Anet not only captured the powerful essence of player-made builds but also the noob aspect of them as well =D
But anyway, Necromancers will never retire =D
But anyway, Necromancers will never retire =D
Gwmaster
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vilaptca
But there are some builds they do understand how to play. I mean seriously, a B/P Ranger...whats so hard about spamming Barrage and an occasional interrupt.
I'm sure something like a Bonder monk or Minion Bomber or even a 55 monk are just something that the AI wouldn't understand, but there are good builds out there that are just so simple that even a regular henchmen could play them. |
apocalypse_xx
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gwmaster
i tried bond monk on the hero monk and it worked fine, he bonded me the other monk and the tank then he casted blessed signet, he never ran out of energy and even if that would maybe happen i always had a hero with br. the only anoying thing is that sometimes he would bond the npcs like sunspears guards but i found that they were pretty awesome
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram
If anything now we monks will not need you all as much as we can have decent heroes to dominate the game ourselves. there may be some areas that We can not take a hero however... As in the UW, FoW and Elite missions...
Cause I know for a fact if they allow heroes in UW ecto/shard prices will plumit overnight, cause solo monk 55 with hero SS builds will be back overnight. Wait a min... on second thought nevermind. lets allow this... |
LifeInfusion
If you have a decent player, they will be better than a hero or hench.
gr3g
Pretty big if when it comes to pugs.
Actually, I'm just bitter. In reality most players are decent enough for PvE. Mostly it's just that pugs bring out the worst clashes of egos and the worst pugs have multiple prima donnas trying to dominate each other instead of playing the damn mission. It's also the reason I hate pugging because I hate not being the prima donna. Henchies have really spoiled me that way.
Actually, I'm just bitter. In reality most players are decent enough for PvE. Mostly it's just that pugs bring out the worst clashes of egos and the worst pugs have multiple prima donnas trying to dominate each other instead of playing the damn mission. It's also the reason I hate pugging because I hate not being the prima donna. Henchies have really spoiled me that way.
Vahn Roi
An experience monk will always be better than any AI. I wouldn't sweat it.
TheBaron82
Heroes is the best thing ever done for pve (at least for me). I hate waiting for a long time getting into a mission with PUG group. With Heroes I only require to have 1 other player for hard missions. For solo players I think 2 monks Heroes, 1 option, and 4 henchies is the best way to go.
Edge Of Malan
I bet you still won't be able to take hero's to FoW or UW.
Pepsi Jedi
Yeah I don't know about you guys but I did NOT like the Monk Hero. Drunko wasn't even as good as the Healer henchie... after two or three party wipes I stopped bringing him if I could. Sometimes I'd pack him AND the healer henchie but that guy was... just... bad henchie. I did't like him. (( Nor his look which didn't help me watch him running around my screen for hours))
Maybe it's just me, or my personal play style, but i didn't like him at all. Koss I liked, Mel I liked. Drunko I didn't.
Maybe it's just me, or my personal play style, but i didn't like him at all. Koss I liked, Mel I liked. Drunko I didn't.
twicky_kid
Depends on the mission.
If a mission would req your party to split heros and henches would not be usable.
Other than that I'd use the AI over real players.
The henches are 5x better than real players mojority of the time and the Heros are better than the henches.
If a mission would req your party to split heros and henches would not be usable.
Other than that I'd use the AI over real players.
The henches are 5x better than real players mojority of the time and the Heros are better than the henches.
arcanemacabre
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pepsi Jedi
Yeah I don't know about you guys but I did NOT like the Monk Hero. Drunko wasn't even as good as the Healer henchie... after two or three party wipes I stopped bringing him if I could. Sometimes I'd pack him AND the healer henchie but that guy was... just... bad henchie. I did't like him. (( Nor his look which didn't help me watch him running around my screen for hours))
Maybe it's just me, or my personal play style, but i didn't like him at all. Koss I liked, Mel I liked. Drunko I didn't. |
Oh yeah, one more thing, don't let him have Healing Breeze. He casts that even more than Orison.
Ole Man Bourbon
Well I changed my Monk Heroes to Prot first chance I got, and used the heal hench as backup. Give the Hero spells like Guardian, Reversal of Fortune, Aegis, Shield of Regen, etc, and you have nothing but good defense being spammed. Gotta love a hench that spams Incendiary Arrows, as well. 
I love playing with these Heroes and seeing how the AI reacts to certain builds. Gonna be very fun when we get lvl 20 toons--my first guy I set up will be an SS Necro, of course. Come to think of it, Well of Blood being spammed automatically should make life much easier as well.
Love the Heroes, bottom line.
I love playing with these Heroes and seeing how the AI reacts to certain builds. Gonna be very fun when we get lvl 20 toons--my first guy I set up will be an SS Necro, of course. Come to think of it, Well of Blood being spammed automatically should make life much easier as well.
Love the Heroes, bottom line.
Sinborn
Typical idiot > Hero > Experienced Monk.
There will be replacements for crap monks, but nothing will ever replace a dynamic healer.
I think we should be more concerned about mesmers. After all, the ungodly reflexes on the AI certainly spells doom for aspiring countermages XD.
There will be replacements for crap monks, but nothing will ever replace a dynamic healer.
I think we should be more concerned about mesmers. After all, the ungodly reflexes on the AI certainly spells doom for aspiring countermages XD.
Rallick
Yeah, I hear a lot about people being smarter than bots, but to be honest, its not always the case.
Allright, I might get falemd for this but…
The main problem is… your typical PuG monk is an idiot, most good monks can waltz through most missions/quests with henchies, so we mostly are left with guys who waste all energy in first 10s of a heated battle and than start ctr click their energy bar
.
Heroes might not be great, but they are predictable, and enough for most situations. Random PuG in such case not worth the effort, 50% available monks are crap, 25% about hero level of skill, and last 25% are really good, but they really do not need a PuG to finish missions.
In other words, you are risking more taking a random monk than taking a hero.
Allright, I might get falemd for this but…The main problem is… your typical PuG monk is an idiot, most good monks can waltz through most missions/quests with henchies, so we mostly are left with guys who waste all energy in first 10s of a heated battle and than start ctr click their energy bar
. Heroes might not be great, but they are predictable, and enough for most situations. Random PuG in such case not worth the effort, 50% available monks are crap, 25% about hero level of skill, and last 25% are really good, but they really do not need a PuG to finish missions.
In other words, you are risking more taking a random monk than taking a hero.
Sheriff
IMHO the behaviour/AI of the healing monk hero could be improved.
OTOH, the 2nd monk hero, set as protection, did her job (specially after I gave her Aegis and Shield of Regeneration)
One think I didn't like was that Jin, the Ranger hero, didn't use her charm animal to get a pet Hope that gets fixed in the final version.
OTOH, the 2nd monk hero, set as protection, did her job (specially after I gave her Aegis and Shield of Regeneration)
One think I didn't like was that Jin, the Ranger hero, didn't use her charm animal to get a pet
Hope that gets fixed in the final version.
Paperfly
People who play PuGs are already voluntarily entering into an inefficient system (hey, it's a game, who cares?). As has already been mentioned, for someone who knows how to use them henchies were already better than pugs.
...anywho, there was already "no" reason except fun (which is a pretty big one!) to take anything but Warriors, Necromancers and Monks into a group unless you could put together a full B/P setup. Anything else is people being sub-par, informal and exploratory... Which is why you'd join a PuG in the first place!
...anywho, there was already "no" reason except fun (which is a pretty big one!) to take anything but Warriors, Necromancers and Monks into a group unless you could put together a full B/P setup. Anything else is people being sub-par, informal and exploratory... Which is why you'd join a PuG in the first place!
MirkoTeran
From a monk-only player:
Is hero-monk better than average PUG monk? Hell yeah. Even hench are better. But the point is: do you really take average PUG monk with you or do you search for a good one? I think the hero system will decrease time to make a party as you won't have to look for a good monk 15 minutes. If you find one in 5 then OK, if not take hero.
Is hero-monk better than average PUG monk? Hell yeah. Even hench are better. But the point is: do you really take average PUG monk with you or do you search for a good one? I think the hero system will decrease time to make a party as you won't have to look for a good monk 15 minutes. If you find one in 5 then OK, if not take hero.
Vilaptca
If anything, the Hero system is going to force me to learn to play a Monk. I admit, that after a few tries at my own builds, I will be browsing the forum here and stealing builds to see what works, what doesn't and try to figure out why.
I've been fooling around with a noob monk in Factions now for a bit, and I think I might actually go a little further and try to actually learn to play a Monk before Nightfall comes out. Otherwise my Dunkaro is going to be the worst Monk ever.
I think the Hero system will make people want to learn more of the other classes. I typically play Warrior or Necromancer. Learning to play a Monk so I can have a competent Monk Hero is going to be necessary.
I've been fooling around with a noob monk in Factions now for a bit, and I think I might actually go a little further and try to actually learn to play a Monk before Nightfall comes out. Otherwise my Dunkaro is going to be the worst Monk ever.
I think the Hero system will make people want to learn more of the other classes. I typically play Warrior or Necromancer. Learning to play a Monk so I can have a competent Monk Hero is going to be necessary.