Why so few interiors in GW?
Lumenil
I have been asking myself for some time, why in GW there are so few buildings in which chars are able to enter. Why there is no actual shop with a roof, an actual open door, some windows? No inns, houses, libraries, castles, temples not open-air etc.. The only buildings in which we are allowed to go are ruins or something like that. There are some caves and dungeons as well too, but not very much. This way there is no possibility of interior design for graphics, thus cutting away an important way of creating atmospheres. There is always something missing in the life of our chars, who apparently live, meet each other, trade, etc.. always in outdoor locations. How come that? Are there some technical limitations?
VitisVinifera
the only camera angle that would work indoors is the first person one, and fighting or conversing or about anything indoors is pretty tough in this game when you can't zoom out some
think about how the mouse control of view works......then think of boxing that into a little room
think about how the mouse control of view works......then think of boxing that into a little room
Lumenil
I played L2 and it has similar camera angle than GW, but there are lots of indoor locations, many of them small, but I didn't notice the problems you have mentioned.
mega_jamie
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Originally Posted by VitisVinifera
the only camera angle that would work indoors is the first person one, and fighting or conversing or about anything indoors is pretty tough in this game when you can't zoom out some
think about how the mouse control of view works......then think of boxing that into a little room |
Id much prefer GW to stay the way it is with scenery, I hated the city part of Cantha, which i consider to be indoors it was so enclosed. Not that alot of work didnt go into it, but the FPS lag it caused was terrible and it ruined the gaming experience.
Scavenger Rage
The camera is NOT the issue here...
They just tend not to make close locations cause of...who know, maybe they don´t want to put effort in wall textures / indoor details.
Latter.
They just tend not to make close locations cause of...who know, maybe they don´t want to put effort in wall textures / indoor details.
Latter.
Lumenil
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Originally Posted by mega_jamie
Personally I love GW open areas, whats the point of entering a shop, when you can just have the shop keep outside and drop possible loading times etc?
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Leddy
Yeah, that's one of my complaints about GW as well. Lack of atmosphere due to lack of internal areas.
dreamhunk
this should be added to make better rpg 
Thallandor
TBH when i played WoW for a while, i liked the interiors as well, Being able to hide in the roof beams and drop down to scare pple is quite fun 
But the main reason i suspect that we dont have alot of interior area as much as we think we would like them is purely because most of them look like exterior ones, a good example would be PvE tombs. did it occur to you when you played it that it was infact in an enclosed area?
The mechanics of the game engine with the area design have to keep in mind of the possible maximum number of entities that can exist at any location at any given time meaning to say that techinically every area in the game should be able to handle 8 MMs with their 80 minons and 8 pets and still allow NPCs to be able to follow some sort of path walk script w/o bugging (too much body block, pple are already complainting that their own pets bodyblock them in PvP... )itself. Hence what this translates is that it is less likely to run into gameplay problems if the areas are wider and less enclosed, making even enclosed areas look like open ones.
I think what this thread perhaps means to say is to allow certain buildings to have interiors that can be accessed w/o loading preferably and have more cave like areas where they can body block each other for fun with the dark atmosphere of adventure
But the main reason i suspect that we dont have alot of interior area as much as we think we would like them is purely because most of them look like exterior ones, a good example would be PvE tombs. did it occur to you when you played it that it was infact in an enclosed area?
The mechanics of the game engine with the area design have to keep in mind of the possible maximum number of entities that can exist at any location at any given time meaning to say that techinically every area in the game should be able to handle 8 MMs with their 80 minons and 8 pets and still allow NPCs to be able to follow some sort of path walk script w/o bugging (too much body block, pple are already complainting that their own pets bodyblock them in PvP... )itself. Hence what this translates is that it is less likely to run into gameplay problems if the areas are wider and less enclosed, making even enclosed areas look like open ones.
I think what this thread perhaps means to say is to allow certain buildings to have interiors that can be accessed w/o loading preferably and have more cave like areas where they can body block each other for fun with the dark atmosphere of adventure
Arcador
The body block is an isse. In the most games othe mentioned there is no such thing. Also the whole gw tactical battle idea needs wide areas (or not so wide, but with different ways arround) Interior battle with narrow coridors might bring the rage quit a lot early :P
torquemada
I'm not saying buildings should be enterable, but hey, dungoens would be real real nice for a change.
DutchGun
I'd wager it's probably technical issue - the GW terrain engine seems to optimized for rendering large outdoor vistas, which it does very well. If you think about it, every "interior" you see in GW seems to be really an outdoor area that they essentially just put a large roof over, and then obfuscated with placed models.
Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were working on improving this. Maybe we'll get big dungeon crawls in GW 4...
Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were working on improving this. Maybe we'll get big dungeon crawls in GW 4...
-Loki-
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Originally Posted by dreamhunk
this should be added to make better rpg
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Lyonette
it could just be that anet didnt want gw to be another generic rpg with all the generic rpg features. i dont know, just a thought
Tyggen
I would guess it's because of several things. Houses require far more detail then exterior to be convincing (more work), they require far more variation then forests (if everyone has the same set of cups, plates and cutlery it'll get boring fast), certain classes would benifit greatly from fighting in tight hallways. Rangers would be mostly useless since they can't shoot around corners (although trapping would be very powerful), elementalists would lose all their projectile spells (how would meteor shower work indoors anyway?), mesmers would have a great advantage since all their spells rely on indirect fire, warriors would simply block off the hallway, leaving the casters completely safe.
I can go on a bit if you wish, but that paragraph is long enough already
That said, I would love to see more indoor areas, the catacombs is one of the best designed areas in the game, and I really think it's a shame we don't see more of it or other areas like it.
I can go on a bit if you wish, but that paragraph is long enough already
That said, I would love to see more indoor areas, the catacombs is one of the best designed areas in the game, and I really think it's a shame we don't see more of it or other areas like it.
Omega X
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Originally Posted by DutchGun
I'd wager it's probably technical issue - the GW terrain engine seems to optimized for rendering large outdoor vistas, which it does very well. If you think about it, every "interior" you see in GW seems to be really an outdoor area that they essentially just put a large roof over, and then obfuscated with placed models.
Honestly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were working on improving this. Maybe we'll get big dungeon crawls in GW 4... |
IT seems to be the fact that the Design Team does not want to focus on interiors unless its a crucial area. Like Arborstone for example.
Kitharin
Maybe just having a few indoor shops would be cool
Jetdoc
I like the idea of more interior areas - they'd have to be pretty darn big though, to fit 200+ people.
I think part of it is also creating the graphics for a "roof" of the area, since most of GW's current aerial graphics are cookie cutter from one town to the next (i.e. you really don't need too many variations of clouds, eh?).
I think part of it is also creating the graphics for a "roof" of the area, since most of GW's current aerial graphics are cookie cutter from one town to the next (i.e. you really don't need too many variations of clouds, eh?).
ZennZero
DutchGun is correct. The GW engine was never originally designed with extensive interiors in mind. You may notice that in the original revision of the engine, the only major indoor area was the Catacombs in pre-searing. If you look up you may have also noticed that for the most part, the Catacombs didn't have a ceiling - just lots of darkness.
With the release of the Sorrows Furnace expansion, the engine was modified to allow for more robustly modeled interiors, but I don't know exactly what is and isn't possible since the upgrade.
I would guess that the engine still isn't ideal for small, enclosed spaces (like in a building).
For the record, I got this information from a post made in these forums by a dev before the release of Sorrow's Furnace, so I would say it is reasonably reliable.
With the release of the Sorrows Furnace expansion, the engine was modified to allow for more robustly modeled interiors, but I don't know exactly what is and isn't possible since the upgrade.
I would guess that the engine still isn't ideal for small, enclosed spaces (like in a building).
For the record, I got this information from a post made in these forums by a dev before the release of Sorrow's Furnace, so I would say it is reasonably reliable.
Trvth Jvstice
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
How, exactly, does it make better RPG?
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Many players play the game from a role playing point of view and I'm sure they want the game to draw them in as much as possible.
King's Spectre
That little council chamber in NF seemed to work well. Maybe we'll see more. Come to think of it the Latendah bog was pretty much an interior cave - narrow twisty passages with a foliage roof.
One big problem with a twisty-turny labyrinth is the agro bubble. You will *constantly* be agroing critters
One big problem with a twisty-turny labyrinth is the agro bubble. You will *constantly* be agroing critters
Big_Iron
I can see how this could make it better, especially for the more hard core RPGers. I think it may make the game more immersive if you could go into taverns and dungeons and so on. I've played other RPGs where you can and I find it enjoyable. I'm thinking it's a technical issue, but since I don't do modeling or level design for a living, that's only a guess.
dreamhunk
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Originally Posted by Thallandor
TBH when i played WoW for a while, i liked the interiors as well, Being able to hide in the roof beams and drop down to scare pple is quite fun
But the main reason i suspect that we dont have alot of interior area as much as we think we would like them is purely because most of them look like exterior ones, a good example would be PvE tombs. did it occur to you when you played it that it was infact in an enclosed area? The mechanics of the game engine with the area design have to keep in mind of the possible maximum number of entities that can exist at any location at any given time meaning to say that techinically every area in the game should be able to handle 8 MMs with their 80 minons and 8 pets and still allow NPCs to be able to follow some sort of path walk script w/o bugging (too much body block, pple are already complainting that their own pets bodyblock them in PvP... )itself. Hence what this translates is that it is less likely to run into gameplay problems if the areas are wider and less enclosed, making even enclosed areas look like open ones. I think what this thread perhaps means to say is to allow certain buildings to have interiors that can be accessed w/o loading preferably and have more cave like areas where they can body block each other for fun with the dark atmosphere of adventure |
then you have cool buildings to hide in this would more improve the rpg as well as the pvp. This would so bring real thinking and skill into this game.
waiting in the beams for your prey. lol
reminds me of Van dam
Darksun
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Originally Posted by -Loki-
How, exactly, does it make better RPG?
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Seriously though, It think it just has to do with atmosphere. An Entire area may seem more fun just because of how it "feels". I think many people don't realize the impact of atmosphere on the how enjoyable a game is.
It doesn't even need to be much.. it may only be in towns, but after a while, having everything be out in the open pulls me out of the immersive aspects of the game. Eveytime I see a building I know it's just a pretty sculpture, not a building.
A. Noid
I couldn't agree more. It's something I think we might be getting -at least in small part- in NF.
http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com...ll-f2621f.html
Hope this comes across- 1st time posting a link. But the review spoke of a dungeon(s). Hope it is just the start
And, as a side, it doesn't have to be a small building in town, it could be a great hall of a king. Small buildings are fine, but I could live with large ones as well. Darnit- I need a couple of ceilings
Also, I find the market in Ascalon city a 'believable' enviornment. A mass of merchants gathered together to offer their goods.
http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com...ll-f2621f.html
Hope this comes across- 1st time posting a link. But the review spoke of a dungeon(s). Hope it is just the start
And, as a side, it doesn't have to be a small building in town, it could be a great hall of a king. Small buildings are fine, but I could live with large ones as well. Darnit- I need a couple of ceilings
Also, I find the market in Ascalon city a 'believable' enviornment. A mass of merchants gathered together to offer their goods.
lightblade
Many people get dizzy when playing 3D games in a indoor setting (like me). I think it's actually like 20% of the population have this kind of problem, and it's a lot.
lyra_song
Yes, shopkeepers and merchants should sometimes be indoors to further confuse newbs
crimsonfilms
It is probably related to the limited usage of a true Z-axis of the game's engine (ever wonder why your traps under the bridge is triggered by object ON the bridge?).
Trvth Jvstice
Ewwww. I just realized... In busy areas, (LA) the shops would be so full, there would just be one big blob of people standing inside. It would be difficult to select the shopkeeper, much less be able to appreciate the atmosphere of the interior.
In instanced areas too many people wouldn't be a problem though, for dungeon crawls or haunted castles etc. EDIT: No that wouldn't work because of the aforementioned z-axis thing.
In instanced areas too many people wouldn't be a problem though, for dungeon crawls or haunted castles etc. EDIT: No that wouldn't work because of the aforementioned z-axis thing.
Omega X
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Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice
EDIT: No that wouldn't work because of the aforementioned z-axis thing.
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LagunaCid
I woudnt like to enter an instance to craft armor, then have to leave it again to buy dyes, then enter another one to buy runes, then visit another one to store items.
Mesmer in Need
heres a pic of my ranger/merchant. he doesnt seem to like selling stuff...
Overnite
Guild Wars engine can't support small interiors so the Sorrows Furnace is the closest thing to a dungeon you'll ever get.
Scavenger Rage
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Originally Posted by Overnite
Guild Wars engine can't support small interiors so the Sorrows Furnace is the closest thing to a dungeon you'll ever get.
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It is NOT an agroo circle problem... It is NOT a camera problem... It is NOT an engine bug whatsoever... It is NOT a z-axis problem (thought I agree the usage is pretty poor in GW).
So, any tecnical suggestions why they do not make this?! Or lets just stay to the "lazyness" aspect?!
Latter.
Mr_eX
Whenever I'm somewhere in Kryta and I see a magnificent castle in the distance I get really dissappointed because I remember that I can't enter it.
Interior areas would definitely be pretty awesome from a roleplaying/realism perspective. I'm willing to bet that this is something ArenaNet will toy with in the future as they continue to improve the graphics engine.
Interior areas would definitely be pretty awesome from a roleplaying/realism perspective. I'm willing to bet that this is something ArenaNet will toy with in the future as they continue to improve the graphics engine.
UBS
This would take a hell of a job, and wouldn't produce a real big effect. The current game world is the best, imo, that could of ever been produced. The game is an outdoor game. adding these roofs would cause bugs, and the camera angle would have to be adjusted.
Straight forward really.
Straight forward really.
Lumenil
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Originally Posted by Mr_eX
Whenever I'm somewhere in Kryta and I see a magnificent castle in the distance I get really dissappointed because I remember that I can't enter it.
Interior areas would definitely be pretty awesome from a roleplaying/realism perspective. I'm willing to bet that this is something ArenaNet will toy with in the future as they continue to improve the graphics engine. |
I'd like so much to be able to go inside that tower.
Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by Omega X
Mike O'Brien coded the game engine. He also worked on the WoW engine. I highly doubt that its a technical issue since Body Blocking does not function in towns(which is where indoors places should be).
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Imagine a town like Kaineng Centre, which already is quite laggy due to hundreds of PC's running around, with 100x as many polygons and 10x as many textures due to there being a variety of indoor environments as well. Ouch.
Even though the polygons shouldn't be rendered if they're hidden from view, the extra memory required and extra calculations would bring weaker machines to their knees.
One solution would to do like Morrowind does (and presumably Oblivion), and use portals. When you entered a house, you'd be transported to a new instance. That way complexity could be reduced, but on the other hand you'd get tons upon tons of loading screens, and walking around in town could easily get very tedious. Not to mention making finding people in towns very hard.
All in all, the lack of indoor environs is a tradeoff necessary to both have nice graphics AND have the game running well also on weak hardware.
lyra_song
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Originally Posted by Scavenger Rage
You will have to "get tecnical" on me before I take that answer as definitive...
It is NOT an agroo circle problem... It is NOT a camera problem... It is NOT an engine bug whatsoever... It is NOT a z-axis problem (thought I agree the usage is pretty poor in GW). So, any tecnical suggestions why they do not make this?! Or lets just stay to the "lazyness" aspect?! Latter. |
Aggro circle:
Monsters dont care if they have direct line of sight or not, they will fire arrows and spells through walls, effectively nerfing rangers, while melee characters will run around to hit you.
Improvement in monster AI specifically in indoor areas would be required.
Camera:
Camera works fine next to walls, imo, since Guild Wars for the most part uses one way normals on walls. Some fine tuning on the player's part to get the best angle would be required.
Engine bug:
ya right >.> GW could render indoors easily.
Z-Axis.
Well we have problems with this, and i dont think interior environments would have any problems as long as its ONE floor basically.
Multi-floored buildings would requiring zoning with each floor.
I dont consider it a laziness, i think being confined in spaces easily makes AOE skills and spirits OVERPOWERED and thats my main concern.
Scavenger Rage
Anyone here ever played pre-searing?! If so, lets try to remember the CATHACOMBS...
The camera is NOT an issue there...we have tons of small narrow corridows and it goes perfectly well...
ALSO the agroo circle is not...the disegners where smart enough to create "pop-up" spiders and place the mobs in specific places where the agroo does not affect trought walls (even thought in the time I went trought it the agroo circle on the compass did not exist, it was already there on the game code).
Z-Axis where not a problem also...and as someone already said, loading screens betwen levels of the caslte / cave would be a breeze....
And for the monsters AI... it is not all that hard to implement a code that make then run and lock themself in rooms to avoid enemy contact... OR simply run away trying to lure the group into traps or such...
AoE spells and such...there is always room to run away (foward or backward), and since EVERYSINGLE GAME have eoe spells and dungeons (castles, caves or such...) this is not a problem...
I am still lacking some tecnical explanations for why don't have indoors...
Latter.
The camera is NOT an issue there...we have tons of small narrow corridows and it goes perfectly well...
ALSO the agroo circle is not...the disegners where smart enough to create "pop-up" spiders and place the mobs in specific places where the agroo does not affect trought walls (even thought in the time I went trought it the agroo circle on the compass did not exist, it was already there on the game code).
Z-Axis where not a problem also...and as someone already said, loading screens betwen levels of the caslte / cave would be a breeze....
And for the monsters AI... it is not all that hard to implement a code that make then run and lock themself in rooms to avoid enemy contact... OR simply run away trying to lure the group into traps or such...
AoE spells and such...there is always room to run away (foward or backward), and since EVERYSINGLE GAME have eoe spells and dungeons (castles, caves or such...) this is not a problem...
I am still lacking some tecnical explanations for why don't have indoors...
Latter.