The psychology of monking

Reading and replying to some of the recent monk threads got me wondering how many other monks out there actively use psychological tricks while monking? Even something as basic as positive/negative reinforcement.

* just to clarify: these are tactics i use after the tried and true teamchat and repeated suggestions and warnings about standing in aoe, pulling aggro, etc. and no, i don't think i'm any better than any other player just because i'm a monk, i've met some amazing players pugging, but i've also many more mixed groups w/ some excellent + some downright abysmal. as a monk i deal w/ human players every day (henchies are boring unless you're just interseted in getting a task done).. but when i play a necro, all I really have to deal w/ is the enemy AI. *

At its most primative level, this would be - misbehaved player = fewer heals & well behaved teamplayer = more heals.

The reason for it would basically be training your pug group to manage aggro if they keep messing it up. Take the example of an ele that is constantly getting too close, sitting in maelstrom or tanking enemy warriors. For eles who repeatedly stand in maelstrom I will simply let their hp drop much much more before I heal them, just keeping them on the verge of death (maybe put PS over them to keep them from sudden death) even though I may be perfectly free to heal them to 100%. The goal of course would be to get that ele to move out of maelstrom so s/he can actually cast something and not take constant damage. Reinforce this a few times as it happens, and you hope that the ele will learn "I'm going to die if I don't move out of maelstrom next time" or "I have a high chance of dying if I keep rushing in too soon". Of course there's always the possibility they will think "Damn, our monk sucks balls, why can't he keep me healed?!"
But generally they would be less likely to think that if everyone is always above 75% hp and only they are always on the verge of death.


While not healing someone at all and letting them die (and I HATE letting anyone die on my watch) is pretty obvious, something a bit more subtle is to not fully heal casters who tend to rush in, tank mobs, or have high dp. These are the party members you least want the mobs focusing on, so keeping them at less than fully healed, or just to heal them a bit slower often discourages such behavior.

Other examples I've come across have been second monks in a group that don't kite or run when mobs focus fire on them, over-zealous battery necros, eles who pull, assasins who don't move out after their inital attacks and start taking immense damage.

Then there are the tanks who run behind the monks to use their healing sig, or the ones who back up after initial aggro, then run in after the mobs have started targeting the squishies.
These tanks take a bit more verbal coaching, but often you have to buff them up psychologically by keeping their health at 90% and above so they don't break and run. Once you gain their trust that you're not going to let them die, you can more easily modify their behavior to be your parties point man, and intercept any incoming enemies.

While there are practical reasons such as conserving energy, not letting the rest of the party die at the expense of one player, I was curious how many other monks out there leverage the this type of psychological pressure on their team to push their behavior towards optimum teamwork.

On the other hand, as a warrior, rit or any other class, have you ever been aware of your party's monk exerting any slient psychological pressure? When I played as a fire ele I generally had no idea what the monks were up. Spike heals happen so fast you sometimes don't notice your hp was down unless you see the +hp floating above your head. I've found when you're tanking regardless of class you get even greater tunnel vision.

Or is what I've said here such basic monking skill, that it all goes without saying? Just curious.

And as a note, I never voluntarily let anyone in my party die on my watch (unless they're a 55 leach), I never refuse to res anyone except in the most extreme griefer cases, and I will not let you die if I can help it. And that is my monk's hippocrates oath =)

uh...not a good idea...when they do die...you'll be the one that's getting blamed.

when I monk, theres nothing psychological about it...If the warrior(or anyone else) overextends and I have to run to heal it often puts the whole party at risk. A risk that I won't make, I'll heal as best I can, but I won't put the party in a worse hole by leeroying just like the idiot who overextended. I am in groups to win a mission, not to have control. I've heard of people using things like this, but its just downright unprofessional! Additionally its self defeating, since these tactics of psycho-warfare are like as not going to cause more trouble than they're worth.

edit: oh yeah, additionally: if you get a whack job like that, /resign and grab a healer hench, pve is not that hard to win with henches.

I usually try using the power of comincation, you know words n stuff in text in team chat. for example "Please Mr Warrior Don't agro everything" "Mrs Ele Please try to avoid tanking, it makes my life hard" "My Energy is 0 of 52!" etc etc

heh, but the thing is I already play this way.
And this is generally only necessary in mediocre pugs or if you have a few less experienced players, or poor players. Often in pugs people will not listen, so that's when I usually apply this type of pressure.

The thing is I don't let them die.. I won't let them if they're in real danger. But if they're causing problems for the party w/ their behavior, they are not going to get much support monk-wise for it.

And when they do die, I've never been blamed, as it's usually after an extremely intense fight, and if 7/8 of the party pulled through fine.. there's no basis for them to blame you unless you really didn't heal them at all.

so is this being an evil manipulative monk? or is it part of energy maangement and party/aggro management?


Hmm, good idea =) Good thing that's what I'm constantly telling my party, but often in the midst of battle you barely have time to be typing something other than "<name> plz get back/move out of mael". And as always there are the ones that simply don't listen, ignore you for trying to tell them what to do no matter how suggestively you phrase it, or just don't care.

I just love when I ping my energy and immediately receive a reponse from all the warriors who ping their energy back. Or when I accidentally hold down the Ctrl key while switching weapons and people start pinging all their greens in their inventory.

And it's not some sort of psychological war or anything, it's not as if I stop healing them. It's more applying pressure to get them to move or hold back a little/not rush in when you're busy managing the health of 7 other people in the party.

I don't play as a Monk but I am creating one tomorrow, not because of this thread, simply because I don't have one!

I will definitely take this thread into account when healing.

The problem is that it only works over a fairly decent amount of time. I dont bother with keeping heals from peeps I just let them now they are displeasing me, the monk, in a vocal way.

ps there is also a very similar thing used to train animals to do tricks, where if they do what they tell you they get a treat, but if they disobey they get nothing :P

I thought this would be a useful thread about psychology (like how they're targetted first and are constantly targetted), not some PVE care bear thread about teaching noobs how to play correctly. :/

Passive-aggressive tactics ftl. Just be upfront with your teammates about your concerns.

I'm not subtle with PUGs, because subtlety requires some level of intelligence to appreciate, and most PUGs aren't at that level. I give them one warning, after which I stop healing them whenever they do anything stupid. As I've said elsewhere, I'm a big fan of Unyielding Aura for PUGs, because it allows you to keep extremely tight control of any headaches. I can't think of any better solution to leeroys than to kill the guy off with a simple double-click.

Unlike some monk players, I don't have any moral objections to having people die on me. I keep people alive because it helps the team accomplish whatever goal we have. If a player is no longer contributing (or worse, is actually detrimental), there's no reason for me to care about their welfare.

I so totally use the same tricks as the OP, tends to work well in RA and AB as well as PvE.

What makes you think monks are any less retarded than your average mending-frenzy wammo?

Honestly, just because you're a monk doesn't make you mentally superiour... the very suggestion is really making me want to flame you.

Ever consider that maybe when a pve team does poorly it's a possability thatthe monk is just lazy/detatched/slow/careless with energy?

Everyone has a role to do. When you've got a good warrior on your team, you'll notice quickly how nice it is not to have to be running around for your life while some big NPC whails on you.

When you have a good ele you'll notice how nice it is to watch scores of monsters burn.

When you have a good monk you'll notice how nice it is not to have to actually ASK for heals...

So how about you worry about monking and step off that pedestal you've erected for yourself?

My tactics when I monk revolve around this. People who don't learn, won't learn. One casual comment is what they get; I don't flame them or try to boss. I tell them they're eating my energy up with their playstyle.

Then they get to die. It sounds harsh, I know. I'm not doing it to be mean to them. I'm doing it for my team.

I don't look at it as 'my fault' when someone dies anymore. I know I was doing the best I could. A mana-sink (someone who uses all my energy to keep them alive) is only 1 in a team. If I'm at 0 juice and all skills recharging--mentally drained from one desperate spam after another--what do I have left for the other 7 members who AREN'T messing up?

Frankly, they're expendable if I have to divote my time and energy to keeping them alive. So when one player with no armor of evasion buffs decides that he is going to tank 3 or more enemies every time--because his spells are SO important--I stop casting and let my little blue bar recharge. No one dies on my watch unless they're spiked or trying to.

Newbs listen to advice. They know they have something to learn and want to be taught. These people take constructive criticizm well, adapt their style to help the team, and become better.

DP is my instructor for noobs. If I know they're going to die and they don't want to change, I let them. If the team wipes because we were 1 player short due to his constant dying and high DP, they don't kick me. They kick him and look for someone else.

My advice to other monks (or anyone else): if your team DOES wipe due to a mana-sink, ask the leader to kick him. Many people don't like to kick players once they have a team together. But its better to cut out the dead wood than to watch the good players ragequit later because they're always a man down. Keep in mind, however, you can beat most missions with 6 players. Err7/ragequit teams talk about it all the time.

@OP: Be frank and open with your team. The good players appreciate you more for it.

I do that all the time with kamikaze players. I get sick and tired of tell them to be careful all the time, don't get too far ahead, etc. etc. I should not have to do that.

So I ramp back heals, and they ramp back the suicide. ITs a win win situation.

That way, I can focus on who is doing good in the group and suicide players can stay out of the way.

plain and simple:

Listen to your MONK or die! Thats my way of dealing with it. 9 out of 10 they listen. And you no what happens when you dont listen. DEATH!

hehehheh

And what makes you think that I believe my self any more intelligent than your average mending-frenzy wammo?

perhaps I haven't been clear enough. I'm not talking about trying to control everyone in the group.
This is AFTER making a suggestion to perhaps one person in the group that maybe it's not such a good idea to rush the big bad bulls as a necro. Or that to please don't over BIP as it's a drain on the monks when everyone is under fire. Sometimes the entire party is clueless about aggro, and you can type everything you want, draw lines on the radar, etc, etc, but it's all forgotten in the heat of the battle.

I'm talking about the players who repeatedly don't listen, who make the same mistakes or are just a bit new to the game and don't quite understand where the ideal places to stand in the midst of battle is. You'd be suprised by how many 1st time uw players I meet going to UW.

When everyone plays their role or class well, there's absolutely no need for this. But when you have one energy sink that repeatedly gets in trouble, doesn't seem to quite understand what the entire team means when they ask them to please stay back, well.. I'm not going to let them die, but I'm not going to go out of my way to keep them at full health so they think they're always at full hp and ready to rush in.

I'm not saying I'm oh-so-much better than all these oh-so-stupid players in my pugs. I'm not saying I'm the best monk since sliced and buttered charr. I'm just asking what do you do as a monk when you have 1 or 2 people who aern't exactly griefers but they repeatedly get the entire team in trouble. Some learn by via what you tell them via teamchat, some do not.

I don't believe in just letting them die, as part of the challenge I enjoy as a monk is to keep even the aggro hungry players alive. Of course there was this one day we had a touch ranger in my UW group.. we just couldn't convince him to stop touching the Aatxes..

i'm always frank, open and easy going with my teams.. I never get angry or anything, but these tactics are what I use for those player who don't listen, don't care, or try to listen but don't quite understand. It's not like I don't say anything to them, repeatedly (and very nice about it as well). But I'm sure we've all had the players on our team who just think they're the new leeroy, or mr invincible. When I play as a necro, etc there's not much I can do about it except repeat what the rest of the team tells them, but as a monk, it is possible to reign them in to the benefit of the entire team. And this is for high level pve areas such as uw/fow/tombs uw/deep/urgotz (as opposed to some missions where it's just easier to die and restart w/o the uncooperatives)

I don't like to resort to threats of no heals, but have had to in a few severe cases.

I usually try to be calm when there are situations where people try to be a tank when they're not or go leeroy-ing everywhere. I just advise them about what they need to do and to stay within range of the monks. If they don't listen, I let them die. If they continue to be asshats, they'll be on the ground indefinitely, and I would not care if they dropped or not.

I'd say sometimes it's beneficial to have some tricks up your sleave.

Usually it's the best thing to write some words into the team chat: Most times I do a reading-test before I even party up with strangers (when i say "no blindinvites" I mean "NO blindinvites" - period.) however on occasion it happens that I just pop into a team to help out a friend and that can get troublesome.
When the team is working together noone has to die, even if aggro is a bit off every now and then: but sometimes you just get that special someone who will not listen, nor change his behavior that is putting the group in danger. Simple solution - I will tell him that I won't risk the success of the party over his/her life and give a constructive suggestion about how things will work out better. Most times that is all that is needed - yet it's not helping in those special cases where you get that very ignorant person who just wants to be a jerk: As long as the party's success is not at stake i will start playing with his healthbar. Conditions and hexes won't get removed instantly anymore; I will keep that person alive, but not like I treat the other teammates. There will be a distinct difference that even the most ignorant person can understand.

It's not wise to be a jerk - whichever profession you play. As monk it can be harsh to get the stick handed once someone dies, but on the same time you have the benefit of beeing able to choose the party you want to be a part of. To have the healthbars of your teammates in your hands is an important task - it's a divine quest that you choose to follow when you created the monk. There is nothing high and mighty about it thou' - since without the team that goes and kills the badguys there is no progress for the monk either. Support each other -> GG & funtimes for all.
This game is about teamplay - and ignorant minds are counterproductive... Staying calm and just talking openly will get you further than any secret mindgames or insulting remarks. I can understand the situation in which it becomes necessary to use more than words to have the team succeed in its goals.

Most times you can avoid a lot of trouble by spending some more time on partymanagement. There have been some great threads around this forum, just do a search and you find some gems.
I myself run the Patient Adventurer (tm) System for more than a year now, and it works like a charm. I was inspired by the glorious Scenic Tour Groups and made my very personal system to weed out the bad apples before even leaving the outpost.
Thanks again to IxChel. ^^

~Aya Starshine~

when im monk, im tryin to keep the whole team alive. but if theres one or 2 dickheads that dont learn, im keepin the healin back to safe sum energy on others. its like when u have ur team play in a mission that involves lots AoE from the enemy side. bots r "smart" enuf to run away from AoE, but us humans? no way! i stopped countin the situations in which ppl stand in searing heat, or bed of coals, or firestorm, or whatever and they get hit and hit and burn and burn and no matter how often i tell them to get the hell out of it, they just keep standin there. on those guys, i keep the healin back and heal them only from time to time, when i dont have to heal anyone else at that moment. if they happen to die at that point, well im sorry, but i warned them about the situation.

even when im not the monk but playin anythin else and we r in such areas, i keep tellin those ppl to get out of aoe bc its a nightmare for monks, speakin of own experience.

so yea, i can understand such psychic warfare of monks, and i think sum monks used it on me aswell sumtime and i dont blame em since at those situations i was idd behaving stupid. i learnt from it.

the only thing that u need to watch out for though, is that u go back to healin normal again once the certain person did learn of his/her errors

so true... so true.