I get too little comments in there for me to get an idea if the build is good or not, so I post it here. Feedback plz
Regards
Reinfire
XvArchonvX
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
R/
09 Oct 2006 at 18:42 - 2
hmm...I don't see this build being able to deal damage better than many other more well known builds. Not to be rude, but I see this as just another build that deals mediocre damage with little versatility put under a fancy name...
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
09 Oct 2006 at 19:26 - 3
Sundering/Penetrating recharge quickly enought that bringing them both is overkill. You don't need both Whirling and Lightning reflexes for defense, and you're better off with another skill besides Lightning for an IAS. Personally I don't think Apply Poison fits in with what your are building for.
Sundering/penetrating is a good choice for a damage skill, and you've brought at least one interrupt, so those are both positives. But I just think you're selling yourself short in the utitlity department, for not much (if any) gain in the offensive department.
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
09 Oct 2006 at 20:09 - 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
hmm...I don't see this build being able to deal damage better than many other more well known builds.
Show me one
Skuld
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Sep 2005
Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]
A/
09 Oct 2006 at 20:14 - 5
Marauders, focused or needling shot may deal more damage?
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
09 Oct 2006 at 20:36 - 6
Focused Shot + an IAS like frenzy + Read the wind.
That will outdamage your build, is much more energy efficient and allows for much more utility. Hardly the best, but it's easily a step up from yours.
XvArchonvX
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
R/
09 Oct 2006 at 20:40 - 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
Show me one
Penetrating Shot
Savage Shot
Punishing Shot {E}
Kindle Arrows(or Read the Winds depending on your expected enemies or bow type of preference)
Dodge
Whirling Defense
Troll (or Throw Dirt if you expect to have a monk)
Rez
or if you insist on running Poison in a direct dmg build:
Penetrating Shot
Savage Shot
Poison Arrow {E}
Kindle Arrows
Dodge
Whirling Defense
Troll (or Throw Dirt if you expect to have a monk)
Rez
or (this one assumes there is a monk)
Penetrating Shot
Savage Shot
Read the Wind
Needling Shot
Frenzy
Dodge
Whirling Defense
Rez
or if you want to do degen from conditions and have no monk:
Penetrating Shot
Savage Shot
Glass Arrows {E}
Flurry
Needling Shot
Whirling Defense
Troll (or Throw Dirt if you expect to have a monk)
Rez
Generally you want to choose between direct damage and invest in Marks and Expertise if you want a strong damage build, go with high WS for a degen build. Mixing the two of these generally leads to inefficiency.
*edit* just saw Snipious' post and I agree that such a combo would be an improvement in DPS.
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
09 Oct 2006 at 20:48 - 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
*edit* just saw Snipious' post and I agree that such a combo would be an improvement in DPS.
I think we posted at the same time. I was going for the slight step up, but you put much more thought into your post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Generally you want to choose between direct damage and invest in Marks and Expertise if you want a strong damage build, go with high WS for a degen build. Mixing the two of these generally leads to inefficiency.
QFT
Couldn't have said it better.
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
09 Oct 2006 at 21:34 - 9
I only lose 1 point in expertise to get a mediocre WS, not an unfair trade. IMO any build needs a form of self heal cus monks are not allways guaranteed, and neither Expertise nor marks has any self-heal, plus the poison lasts longer.
And all those builds you showed are less IMO:
- Savage shot is an interrupt, and certainly not any better than distracting shot
-Frenzy makes you die twice as fast, I dont know why people even use that skill
-Kindle arrows is not any better than apply poison, only vs warriors perhaps
-Needling shot does only 21 dmg on full marks. Penetrating attack can do up to over a 100, even on warriors it does more than that.
None of these builds do more damage than mine, I suggest you test it yourself
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
09 Oct 2006 at 21:48 - 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
IMO any build needs a form of self heal cus monks are not allways guaranteed
If you are taking damage and your monk sucks, stopping for three whole seconds to use a heal that is not instant is not going to help you in any case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
- Savage shot is an interrupt, and certainly not any better than distracting shot
Distracting shot only deals 13ish damage. Savage deals full damage, and if it interrupts a spell deals +damage. Thus, more damaging. You do not need to disable many spells in PvE, and the ones you WOULD need to disable are 1/4 sec casts, and its a lottery to interrupt them anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
-Frenzy makes you die twice as fast, I dont know why people even use that skill
Only if you're stupid enough to use it while you take damage. You only need a stance cancel, and it's perfectly viable for a ranger. Easy to mantain IAS on a class blessed to be out of damage's range most of any battle... Not seeing the downside here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
-Kindle arrows is not any better than apply poison, only vs warriors perhaps
Poison does nothing if you keep re-applying it to the same target (which I have the sneaky suspicion you are doing) in which case, using Poison Arrow + kindle will EASILY deal more damage without having to think hard. As for a standard damage dealing build, a damage dealing prep that doesn't require a condition is going to be a better choice, because you will deal more damage to single targets... and that's what you're going for on a damage dealing build isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
-Needling shot does only 21 dmg on full marks. Penetrating attack can do up to over a 100, even on warriors it does more than that.
But it also fires quicker than a normal shot, and recharges instantly when the foe is below 50% health. You can spam Needling shot faster than you can attack normally, and deal more damage with preperations. Course you'd have to think about how two skills fit together to get that one. It should also be noted that it ALWAYS deals 21 damage. Regardless of armor. So against those high armor baddies, it often rivals Penetrating Shot in damage while being cheaper and while firing every second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
None of these builds do more damage than mine, I suggest you test it yourself
You DID ask for feedback. I suggest you go back to the drawing board before you snub sound advice.
Nivryx
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
Kenya
Mo/
09 Oct 2006 at 22:28 - 11
in my opinion filling your your bar with 2 lead attacks and a 2ndary attack as you have done is just wasteful. your using distrating shot as an interupt, but if you seeking for damage, you could use kindle arrows instead of apply poison and go penetrating attack -> distracting shot. i'd also think it would help if you took out archers sig and put in an elite like punishing shot or quickshot using kindle arrows. punishing shot still takes a bit more energy, with quickshot and 14 expertise you can keep it highly spammable with a zealous bow string. i'd also reccommend taking out either penetrating attack or sundering attack and equiping dual shot instead. you may like needling shot as well, some people don't like it but i'm not a serious pvp'er so i don't mind the fact that it doesn't flow as perfectly some want it to.
penetrating attack -> quickshot -> needling shot -> dual shot -> quickshot -> needling shot -> repeat with kindle arrows on for damage. this is much more effective than two basic attack skills.
on a side note, i'd listen openly to the advice given. members like snipious and arch are whom i respect for their knowledge. i don't know how many hours they have put into their rangers, but for me i have put over 1000.
you mentioned that needling shot only does 21 damage with max marks. my question is, so what? kindle arrows adds damage, and then you can even go r/e for conjure flame to give it even more damage. and then to take it another step further, use a vampiric bow. your 21 damage needling shot can now do a lot more than 21 damage, which will add up easily once your done spamming a bit.
Sir Mad
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
Moe's Pub
Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]
R/
09 Oct 2006 at 22:32 - 12
Quote:
-Kindle arrows is not any better than apply poison, only vs warriors perhaps
If not mended poison does 16-20 damage between 2 shots depending on your bow. Kindle deals 25 damage. With dual shot, 50.
Quote:
None of these builds do more damage than mine, I suggest you test it yourself
Actually if you have a look at the contributions to this forum of the posters above me you will see they are experienced rangers and know what they are talking about. And they're right.
XvArchonvX
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
R/
10 Oct 2006 at 00:39 - 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
- Savage shot is an interrupt, and certainly not any better than distracting shot
Savage Shot as said by Snipious does more damage, especially when it interupts a spell. Not only that, but it has a much shorter recharge time that gives it great merit. Distracting shot is an excellent skill, but it's strength lies in a shutdown build, not a damage dealing build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
-Frenzy makes you die twice as fast, I dont know why people even use that skill
You may not have noticed, but the only build that had Frenzy in it also had Dodge. This is because Dodge is intended as a cancel stance. As said by Snipious, the correct use of Frenzy is to deal maximum damage when not under pressure and to cancel it with another stance if you start taking damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
-Kindle arrows is not any better than apply poison, only vs warriors perhaps
I love apply poison, but it's strength is in spamming and running, not direct attack. If you use apply poison only for one target, you are wasting a lot of energy as shown by the numbers Sir Mad gave. If you are spamming poison on all nearby targets, you are getting the true benefit of the skill. To put it simply:
Apply Poison -> large group pressure
Kindle Arrows -> single target pressure
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
-Needling shot does only 21 dmg on full marks. Penetrating attack can do up to over a 100, even on warriors it does more than that.
By itself this is a true statement, however the rate of fire that Needling Shot is capable of when used against a foe below 50% health as it should be, then your DPS is incredibly high. Read the Winds with a Vamp Flatbow or Glass Arrows with a Vamp Shortbow can put out extremely high dps when spammed via Needling Shot, especially if you use this with an IAS. I encourage to try this for yourself.
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
10 Oct 2006 at 14:56 - 14
lol this is getting highly enjoyable.
Quote:
If you are taking damage and your monk sucks, stopping for three whole seconds to use a heal that is not instant is not going to help you in any case.
And what would you do if you are blinded? Do you just keep firing like a fool? I use such moments for a Troll. Also it helps you recover faster after a battle.
Quote:
Distracting shot only deals 13ish damage. Savage deals full damage, and if it interrupts a spell deals +damage. Thus, more damaging. You do not need to disable many spells in PvE, and the ones you WOULD need to disable are 1/4 sec casts, and its a lottery to interrupt them anyway
More damage yes, but the shutdown part is whats so good about it. What good is a damage build if the damage doesnt stay. With Distracting Shot you can disable someones heal for good, and in PvP its so good on Res signets
Quote:
Only if you're stupid enough to use it while you take damage. You only need a stance cancel, and it's perfectly viable for a ranger. Easy to mantain IAS on a class blessed to be out of damage's range most of any battle... Not seeing the downside here.
Frenzy is not good with a shortbow, since you are allways in someones range, it wont work in PvP, only in PvE with good tanking, which I dont trust upon
Quote:
You DID ask for feedback. I suggest you go back to the drawing board before you snub sound advice.
Yes I did ask, and I thank you all for it. But why does this mean that I cant disagree with them?
Quote:
on a side note, i'd listen openly to the advice given. members like snipious and arch are whom i respect for their knowledge. i don't know how many hours they have put into their rangers, but for me i have put over 1000.
Oh, Im sure they know every skill inside out with all the values attached to it, and I dont care if they put a million hours into their rangers. Archon's post in this thread had a pretty cocky attitude. Instead of being subtle like this: "Its not a bad build allthough I think you need to improve it on that point" he just gives a list of things which are supposedly wrong with it, while not saying a word about possible good sides. And you are only encouraging it with your asskissing
Quote:
If not mended poison does 16-20 damage between 2 shots depending on your bow. Kindle deals 25 damage. With dual shot, 50.
If you want kindle arrows to do 25 damage, you need to put 16 into WS, which is a waste for a damage build, poison doesnt need a high WS to be effective, thats why I took it. So this is hardly an argument in favour of Kindle
Quote:
I love apply poison, but it's strength is in spamming and running, not direct attack. If you use apply poison only for one target, you are wasting a lot of energy as shown by the numbers Sir Mad gave. If you are spamming poison on all nearby targets, you are getting the true benefit of the skill. To put it simply:
Did you forget that poison can be purged? Seeing poison on an ally will make monks trigger their anti-condition, which will be useless since it will be reapplied a second later. Plus if you have a low WS, the poison doesnt last that long
Quote:
you mentioned that needling shot only does 21 damage with max marks. my question is, so what? kindle arrows adds damage, and then you can even go r/e for conjure flame to give it even more damage. and then to take it another step further, use a vampiric bow. your 21 damage needling shot can now do a lot more than 21 damage, which will add up easily once your done spamming a bit.
Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.
I know you must think me as a complete ass by now, but I dont care. An opinion of someone who bought GW yesterday is in my eyes as debatable as the opinion of a so-called "expert"
Sir Mad
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
Moe's Pub
Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]
R/
10 Oct 2006 at 15:57 - 15
Reinfire, you DON'T need to take it this way. People not agreeing with you makes you obviously angry and sacartisc. We don't agree with each other all the time on this forum, however we use to take time to listen at our arguments. Personally, considering the experience of many members of this forum, I use to assume they know what they're talking about if they say something that at first sight surprise me. It doesn't mean I will necessarilly end up agreeing with them, but aat least I will take the time to balance their arguments.
First concerning the use of your build, you did not mention this build was for PvP. I don't mind at all talking about PvP builds, but as it's a PvE forum I and probably many readers did not assume it was a PvP build. And actually when I read your advice for the use of distracting shot, the skills make me think to the skills of a mob in PvE, not to PvP. But that's a detail.
Quote:
If you want kindle arrows to do 25 damage, you need to put 16 into WS, which is a waste for a damage build, poison doesnt need a high WS to be effective, thats why I took it. So this is hardly an argument in favour of Kindle
Yes this is true. I obviously had in mind WS based builds.
Quote:
Frenzy is not good with a shortbow, since you are allways in someones range, it wont work in PvP, only in PvE with good tanking, which I dont trust upon
Henchies tank well enough for frenzy if you know how to controll them. And yes that may NOT be that a good idea (frenzy) in PvP - however it depends on what kind of PvP you're playing, and what the build of your team is. But again, we were not supposed to know it was about PvP.
Quote:
Yes I did ask, and I thank you all for it. But why does this mean that I cant disagree with them?
You can disagree, however rejecting all the critics one can make is not constructive, and useless.
Quote:
Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.
Maybe I missed something, but how can you refire every 1.5 sec? With LR? It lasts 10 sec and recharges in 45 secs.
PS: especially if it's for PvP, you forgot a rez sig.
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
10 Oct 2006 at 16:49 - 16
Yes, my posts seem a bit bitchy and ungratefull, and I apologise for it.
I truely appreciate your critics but maybe it doesnt look so cause I try to proove evryone wrong. When I post a build somewhere, its allready awesome in my own eyes and I post it just to see if it can survive the critics from the public. If my build is faulty in my own eyes I wont post it, so if it is perfect in my own eyes and not perfect in another ones eyes, it may lead to some nasty arguments, especially if the other one is as stubborn as me lol.
Ill try to be a little nicer from now on
Quote:
First concerning the use of your build, you did not mention this build was for PvP. I don't mind at all talking about PvP builds, but as it's a PvE forum I and probably many readers did not assume it was a PvP build. And actually when I read your advice for the use of distracting shot, the skills make me think to the skills of a mob in PvE, not to PvP. But that's a detail.
Its not really a true PvP build or PvE build, its usable in both domains. I couldnt see a forum for builds usable in Both PvE and PvP so I posted it here I personally dont like frenzy because of the double damage. It may work for some, but not for me. Its a matter of personal taste. My argument against this was a PvP argument and that may have caused some confusion.
Quote:
Maybe I missed something, but how can you refire every 1.5 sec? With LR? It lasts 10 sec and recharges in 45 secs.
I wasnt talking about LR, but about the Sundering/Penetrating attacks, they each have a 3 sec recharge so with 2 of them you can fire every 1,5 sec
XvArchonvX
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
R/
10 Oct 2006 at 17:10 - 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
And what would you do if you are blinded? Do you just keep firing like a fool? I use such moments for a Troll. Also it helps you recover faster after a battle.
If blinded, simply stay back and wait for the condition to be removed or to wear off. If you start casting troll you will likely get healed to full health before you finish your cast. If you are in an evironment where you will likely encounter blind, then Purge Conditions or some other condition removal would be more efficient than troll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
More damage yes, but the shutdown part is whats so good about it. What good is a damage build if the damage doesnt stay. With Distracting Shot you can disable someones heal for good, and in PvP its so good on Res signets
I think this exemplifies the problem I saw in the build. If you aim to do direct damage, build with that quality in mind. If you want shutdown, go with someone who is built for shutdown (mesmer, choking gas/interupt ranger, etc..). By taking Apply Poison and Distracting Shot, you lower your damage output potential as opposed to if you were to bring Savage Shot and Kindle Arrows/Read the Wind. If you were to replace Apply Poison with Read the Wind, you would also be able to bring a flatbow, thus giving you the same max refire rate with arrows that will not likely miss as well as a long range to pick your battles from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
Frenzy is not good with a shortbow, since you are allways in someones range, it wont work in PvP, only in PvE with good tanking, which I dont trust upon
I never suggested that a shortbow was to be used with Frenzy. In fact if you look at the build that used Frenzy, it uses Read the Winds, in which case a Flatbow would be able to perform with the same refire and flight efficiency of a shortbow, but also have maximum range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
Archon's post in this thread had a pretty cocky attitude. Instead of being subtle like this: "Its not a bad build allthough I think you need to improve it on that point" he just gives a list of things which are supposedly wrong with it, while not saying a word about possible good sides.
I did not intend to convey this attitude, so I'll take this space to point out the good I see in your build.
I will admit that the proposed build is the best use of Archer's Sig I have seen. Also your attribute spread for the skills chosen was done well since you obviously read up on expertise cutoff points and differences in bow types before posting, which is a step ahead of many proposed builds I have seen here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
If you want kindle arrows to do 25 damage, you need to put 16 into WS, which is a waste for a damage build, poison doesnt need a high WS to be effective, thats why I took it. So this is hardly an argument in favour of Kindle
If you are concerned about spreading attributes into WS, I would suggest using Read the Wind and taking a Flatbow which would increase your maximum range and increase your damage at a lower cost. With the energy you save, you may be able to bring something like Concussion Shot instead of Distracting Shot that would provide an attack that does full damage and causes dazed. Since you are using Archer's Signet Concussion Shot would seem like a more logical choice since you could often fire it for free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
Did you forget that poison can be purged? Seeing poison on an ally will make monks trigger their anti-condition, which will be useless since it will be reapplied a second later. Plus if you have a low WS, the poison doesnt last that long
I'm not sure if you are arguing for or against poison here. My point was that Apply Poison is overkill if you only use it on one target. Poison Arrow can reapply poison to a single foe just as easily as Apply Poison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.
Your oversimplification hides the fact that as Sir Mad said, you only get the increased attack rate when under the effects of Lightning Reflexes, which is only 10 seconds every 45 seconds. Duration of damage output is a very important ingredient to any battle. If you only get 10 seconds of IAS per 45 recharge and have to stop to cast a 3 second sig that disables your non-attack skills for 9 seconds, you will be drastically bogged down as time progresses in battle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
I know you must think me as a complete ass by now, but I dont care. An opinion of someone who bought GW yesterday is in my eyes as debatable as the opinion of a so-called "expert"
I do not think you are an 'ass' and have not taken any judgements of your build as reason to view you any different on a personal level. To put it simply,I really don't know you and can't view you as a genius or a fool simply from one proposed ranger build.
I will admit that newer players often do have the ability to look upon many skills in new light that other more experienced players may overlook, but I would not go so far as to say that this is enough to make someone who has 24-48 hours experience with the game just as able to understand the game as someone who has played over a year. I will agree that everyone here is still learning and in no way intend to turn a deaf ear to anyone simply because of experience.
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
10 Oct 2006 at 17:54 - 18
Quote:
If you are concerned about spreading attributes into WS, I would suggest using Read the Wind and taking a Flatbow which would increase your maximum range and increase your damage at a lower cost. With the energy you save, you may be able to bring something like Concussion Shot instead of Distracting Shot that would provide an attack that does full damage and causes dazed. Since you are using Archer's Signet Concussion Shot would seem like a more logical choice since you could often fire it for free.
Actually it doesnt matter in energy much since your first 4 attacks cost no energy, so youll get back to 25 even with a 15E prep.
1 Question, do the Armour penetrations from the hornbow and Penetrating Attack add up to 30%?
SparhawkJC
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
The Amazon Basin
R/Me
10 Oct 2006 at 18:09 - 19
No, you only get the 20% armor penetration from Penetrating Attack.
Sir Mad
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
Moe's Pub
Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]
R/
10 Oct 2006 at 18:45 - 20
Quote:
I wasnt talking about LR, but about the Sundering/Penetrating attacks, they each have a 3 sec recharge so with 2 of them you can fire every 1,5 sec
Unfortunately that's not how it works. If you look carefully at your bow attack skills when you hit them when they are recharged (except the interupts) you will notice they'll start "glowing" during a short while before they actually take effect (same thing than when you click a skill while your already using one): it corresponds to the refiring rate of your bow. That's also why IAS will work when you use bow attacks and effectively makes you attack faster. If the refiring rate of the bow was nulified by the bow attack skills, there would be no reason to use a flatbow with a B/P build for example, as a longbow has a shorter flight time (well I still like longbows better but many other rangers prefer a flatbow, and they have their own reasons to do so).
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
10 Oct 2006 at 19:20 - 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
And what would you do if you are blinded? Do you just keep firing like a fool? I use such moments for a Troll. Also it helps you recover faster after a battle.
Troll is useful in only a small number of situations... none of which involve a group. If you are blinded you: 1.) Use a utility spell you have room for because you don't bring redundant attack skills 2.) Call the condition and wait a few seconds for your monk to remove it or 3.) Wait a few seconds for the condition to where off. I really don't see how this has anything to do with why Troll Ungent is overated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
More damage yes, but the shutdown part is whats so good about it. What good is a damage build if the damage doesnt stay. With Distracting Shot you can disable someones heal for good, and in PvP its so good on Res signets
I'm not at all doubting it's use in PvP. But just assumed this was a PvE build since you were using Archer's Signet. In PvE, as I stated, it is almost completely uneccesary to concern yourself with shutdown. Interrupts are another thing altogether. They server their purpose in mitigating damge, or dealing extra damage. Disabling ONE skill for ONE weak enemy in a MOB of enemies, is very rarely worthwhile. Exceptions would include a boss here and there, but never worth bringing in every quest and mission.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
Frenzy is not good with a shortbow, since you are allways in someones range, it wont work in PvP, only in PvE with good tanking, which I dont trust upon
Again, this is forcing you to think outside the box. Read Archon's post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
But why does this mean that I cant disagree with them?
You can certainly disagree, but don't expect the any of the Ranger Community to react positively to being treated like they are just "experts" (note the heavy qoutation marks and implied sarcasm) instead of experienced players offering feedback. You wanted feedback so you could change the build accordingly, but you don't want any negative? Well then, Penetrating shot is a good choice. There's the positive, now how are you going to change the build from that? You can't. You'll go on assuming you have some uber massive build, while wondering that no one else is intellegent enough to use it. Archon was to the point, and hit to the heart of what needed to be improved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
<snip> More arguement for Apply over Kindle <snip>
I certainly agree that Poison is excellent. Apply poison especially. But, you cannot expect to deal respectable single target damage with a Preperation that was meant to be used on a GROUP. Either run poison... or don't. Build to use poison, or build to deal damage. Both philosophies have their places and uses, but try to both and you'll do a piss poor job at both.
Quote:
Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.
You'll need better numbers than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
the opinion of a so-called "expert"
...
Nivryx
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
Kenya
Mo/
11 Oct 2006 at 00:29 - 22
Quote:
Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.
i don't mean to be rude, but i don't believe in lying, so to be completely honest, im not impressed, i've had my needling shot do 91.
Quote:
None of these builds do more damage than mine, I suggest you test it yourself
secondly, please stop being hypocritcal, other people are clearly spending their time to discuss their opinions, yet you still remain firm in many of your positions. i by no means am spending my time, because i simply don't care what you do, as long as you understand there are higher quality builds, and suggestions that have been made can help you accomplish a more successful build.
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
11 Oct 2006 at 09:37 - 23
I could think of a few situations in PvE where shutdown would be usefull
About the Apply poison issue, I realise that if you have a high WS, its more effective if you fire it at multiple members of a group. I however use a low WS (only 7), with which the -4 degen from poison is the most damaging, someone posted some numbers that Apply poison does 16-20 dmg between 2 shots, which is more than kindle arrows at that WS level, and more than read the wind. so even though it was meant for groups, I still think its the most effective.
Quote:
i don't mean to be rude, but i don't believe in lying, so to be completely honest, im not impressed, i've had my needling shot do 91.
Why do you think these numbers are lied? Sorry to say it but I have seen the numbers with my own eyes and I think your making a fool out of yourself by accusing me of lying. Ill run some test with "needling shot" this weekend to see if I like it, I am sure that you can get into a situation where a needling shot would do 91 damage, but I think that was a peak instead of an average
Nivryx
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
Kenya
Mo/
11 Oct 2006 at 10:35 - 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by reinfire
Why do you think these numbers are lied?
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
im not impressed
who said i thought you lied, im merely saying that you shouldn't take pride in 70-100 dmg on spellcasters - big woop. please read more carefully. and no, the build i was using averaged 90 needling. and say what you will, i'm deeming this thread worthless so don't expect me to waste my time henchforth.
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
11 Oct 2006 at 13:45 - 25
Quote:
About the Apply poison issue
Poison deals 8 damage a second. If you are firing every 1.33 seconds (under the effects of an IAS) you will be dealing close to +8 damage a second with read the wind, and more with Kindle.
Were you to want the damage from poison against a single target a better option is Poison Arrow. You can use Kindle or read the wind ON TOP OF the poison damage.
Quote:
I could think of a few situations in PvE where shutdown would be usefull
That's the point. It's not widely useful.
Evilsod
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
England
Lievs Death Squad [LDS]
11 Oct 2006 at 13:55 - 26
I always saw Marksmans Wager as the best elite for spamming Sundering/Penetrating. Once you get to less than 10 energy, just put Marksmans up and continue spamming... you gain 4 or 5 energy each use. Does limit you to having no other prep but wtf, you can always use FW.
Orange Milk
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Mar 2006
Ganking, USA
Retired
R/
11 Oct 2006 at 14:26 - 27
Wow, I think this may be the second time I've ever agreed with Evilsod. If you wanna do pure dmg you should have FW, the nice out of sight out of mind prep that stacks with everything, including other preps, and how often do ya have to set it up? Every 2 mins or so. its a great skill.
If I have two Monks I rarley take a self heal, shouldn't have to. But always WD and Rez (PvP or PvE) I'm not a big fan of Troll, I don't like "heal over time" things.
If I'm blind I just stand back a wait for it to be removed or go away, Just think of all the Energy regen ya get while standin there.
I've never liked Needle Shot, and I dunno how you got it up to 90, I would like to know though, I've only tested it on the Isle and never acctully used it in battle so my knowledge of the skill is limited. I'm not a big fan of skills you HAVE to stack up to make good. I've used Suddering/penitrating enough to know and love them. 174 being the most I go one of those up to.
Also It's nice to see "archers Signet' used somewhere, mine is covered with dust.
Let the Flaming continue
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
11 Oct 2006 at 14:40 - 28
@ Nivryx
I dont know what your problem is here, I know my first replies were a lil bitchy, but I realised that allready and apologised for it. You completely ignored my apology and just keeps your negativeness about me in this thread, just stop bitching or leave.
He did make me curious how a needling shot can average 90 dmg, can someone show me that build?
@ Snipious
Actually im firing at 1,5 sec. And every 2 sec when LR wears out (LR is only active for 10 sec) Im not using LR pure for the fire rate, but also because its a 75% stance as well
@ Evilsod
I allready thought about that skill, it is a more powerfull energy conserver than Archers signet, but it is also more risky since you lose energy if you miss (due to a dodge or a suddenly activated 75% stance). Archer's signet does not have this insecurity, but it is harder to wield properly. Personally I dont like such a risk, same is why I dont like frenzy (not saying its a bad skill, its just not my taste)
XvArchonvX
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
R/
11 Oct 2006 at 14:58 - 29
Quote:
Concerning Needling Shot
This was a skill I honestly overlooked and dismissed a bit when I first saw it. After I saw a stir about it on the forums and had my guildleader start telling me about how much she loved the skill I decided to try it out. The refire rate against a foe under 50% health simply must be seen to believe. If you use this right, you will be outfiring someone running a 33% IAS VERY easily. I believe the way the 90 damage from Needling Shot was gained was from using Needling Shot at 15-16 Marksmanship under the effects of Read the Wind, which is one of my favorite preps for the skill. Under these effects you will be doing 30-31 armor ignoring damage per shot (add 5 to that if you are using a Vamp bow as you should be with this setup), then take into account that you can fire off 2-3 Needling Shots in the time you fire one Penetrating Shot and you will see how this damage is accounted for. Under the right conditions of 16 marks and a vamp bow you do 108 damage in 3 shots with Needling Shot at least. If you use Glass Arrows instead of RtW, you then do 117 armor ignoring damage in 3 shots.
While Needling Shot can sometimes have limited use in some PvE situations where there are masses of weak enemies, it also serves as a rapid fire shot the way that an interupt does, but without the cooldown time afterwards. While this doesn't seem very significant, it can be used to interupt a dazed foe's skill that you might miss if restricted by you normal firing rate or to spread poison to multiple foes quickly if using Apply Poison. However Needling Shot truly shines against the stout enemies in both PvP and PvE.
SnipiousMax
Perfectly Elocuted
Join Date: Sep 2005
11 Oct 2006 at 15:01 - 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
@ Snipious
Actually im firing at 1,5 sec. And every 2 sec when LR wears out (LR is only active for 10 sec) Im not using LR pure for the fire rate, but also because its a 75% stance as well
So, you deal what.... 1-2 more damage than read the wind at 1.5 second shots and 3 more damage at 2 second shots, without the added benefit of increased arrow speed so you can use a flatbow? With an IAS that can be kept up constantly, Read the Wind will deal the same as poison. Kindle can be more or less without an IAS and always more with one.
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
11 Oct 2006 at 15:15 - 31
A flatbow is I think not so good when spamming Sundering/Penetrating attack.
Ill give needling shot a try this weekend, ill replace apply poison by read the wind and troll by needling shot and see what it does (ill still use the penetrating attacks to get the health down below 50% fast)
Sir Mad
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
Moe's Pub
Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]
R/
11 Oct 2006 at 15:37 - 32
Quote:
If you wanna do pure dmg you should have FW, the nice out of sight out of mind prep that stacks with everything, including other preps, and how often do ya have to set it up? Every 2 mins or so. its a great skill.
Yeah but FW as any spirits works both for you and your enemies, and you have to use it only every 2 mins only if you stay more than 2 mins at the same place :P
Quote:
@ Snipious
Actually im firing at 1,5 sec. And every 2 sec when LR wears out (LR is only active for 10 sec) Im not using LR pure for the fire rate, but also because its a 75% stance as well
Lol yeah that's what I'm saying since the beginning - I defended LR as a good skill under some cirumstances in another thread but it's definitely not viable as an IAS skill. And as a defensive skill, you already have WD...
But again the choice depends on the environment (PvP or PvE, and what kind of PvP/PvE).
XvArchonvX
Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
R/
11 Oct 2006 at 16:26 - 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinfire
A flatbow is I think not so good when spamming Sundering/Penetrating attack.
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning for this. The assumed usage of a Flatbow that has been suggested is under the effects of RtW. Under such circumstances a Flatbow has the same refire rate as a shortbow, same arrow speed as a shortbow under the effect or a greater speed than a shortbow not under the effect, but has maximum distance. While the definition of Read the Winds states that arrows travel twice as fast, it actually makes the speed of a travelling arrow the same for all bow types under the effect. The explanation of this effect is given in the notes section of Guild Wiki:
I allready thought about that skill, it is a more powerfull energy conserver than Archers signet, but it is also more risky since you lose energy if you miss (due to a dodge or a suddenly activated 75% stance). Archer's signet does not have this insecurity, but it is harder to wield properly. Personally I dont like such a risk, same is why I dont like frenzy (not saying its a bad skill, its just not my taste)
How often do people use 75% stances? Be honest. The only enemy in an AB who will use an evasive stance is a Ranger/Toucher. Been as you have no cripple your limited to what you can achieve vs a Toucher anyway so your just left with a ranger. The only other 1 would be a boon prot via Guardian, but that can be interrupted.
In HA/GvG you'd never be running this build because it has no utility or spike potential so theres no point discussing that.
In TA you still lack a res and Lightning Reflexes really does suck for TA imo. Plus with only 1 interrupt enemy casters could quite easily get 1 over you.
RA isn't worth mentioning as its a waste of time and space.
In PvE evasive stances appear once every millenium. Unless your running Seeking Arrows (very unlikely) you won't hit them anyway so you should just switch target instead of spamming away.
Munanko Roha
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2006
KoH
W/E
12 Oct 2006 at 07:59 - 36
Mmh for a 90 Needling Shot... Judge's Insight on a Frenzied undead?
dgb
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Sep 2005
Mo/Me
12 Oct 2006 at 08:32 - 37
I honestly don't see the point of this sort of character. If you want DPS from attacks go a warrior. They are better at it than rangers, not too mention they spike harder. If you want shutdown then go full shutdown.
Apply poison makes no sense to me either, it shines when you can get it onto multiple characters. If you're just going to shoot someone you're investing a lot of energy into something that's performing sub-par.
I guess I can understand it in PVE, you've got a ranger and you want DPS on it so this makes sense, although Barrage I suspect would do more anyway, but in PVP I don't see why you'd run it - builds like this are marginally annoying but not a threat to monks in randoms. I'll throw up a guardian if I'm bored against this, but on a threat rating it sits with fire elementalists. Not overly threatening unless I have to go AFK for 30s. If you're using this outside randoms, well you're going to lose to anything other than other scrub teams. A team that understands maximising potential of characters will slap a team with this sort of garbage around.
Reinfire
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2006
Amsterdam, NL
The Guild of Cunning Artificiers [ANKH]
W/
12 Oct 2006 at 14:46 - 38
Ignoring your obvious sarcasm, I get the feeling that you are holding on too much to non-existend laws for builds in GW. Why would a Warrior be "THE" damage dealer for GW? Its bullshit, a ranger can deal just as much dmg as a warrior, so do all proffessions BTW if wielded correctly. your "Ill throw a guardian if im bored" is rediculous. If you think that a mere guardian can stop a good warrior/ranger/assassin build than you need some more field experience.
Even if this build is flawed, it can still kill someone in a matter of seconds
Skuld
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Sep 2005
Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr]
A/
12 Oct 2006 at 15:18 - 39
No, a ranger cannot when it comes to DPS.
Rangers shine at disruption, degen, e-denial etc but not at killing stuff better than a war >_<
