Exploitation of New Players and Child Gamers

You just told me everything I need to know about you.

I somewhat agree with this. Indirectly it's scamming, and it's definitely unethical and exploitive to new players. I will whisper new players if they are about to get scammed from runners or selling something worth a lot for too little.

No matter what you call it; scam, con, or rip-off, it's all bad form and takes advantage of unsuspecting newbies. When I see people in Pre-searing offering to buy dyes on the cheap, I announce to the world that they shouldn't sell dyes until they hit post-searing.

If someone ever PM's me telling me to be quiet about it, they'll be met with a polite "no." Persistence by said individual will be met with the ignore list. If I see someone trying to take advantage of other players in any way I'll do what I can to put a stop to it. Outright scams get reported, no question (I don't consider the dye issue a "scam" in the strictest sense of the word)

Mister Gorilla, you're the bane of humanity. People like you turn into arms dealer, drug dealers, collaborators, and all kinds of secondary jobs that make it possible for tyrants and bastards to wreak their havoc. They would be nothing without guy like you supporting anything in the name of money, which makes you as bad as them.

It kind of suprises me that such a simple issue has provoked so much discussion. Basically: while it may not be a "scam" using the purest defintion of the word, it is dishonest at best, as it takes advantage of a new player's ignorance. The character who pointed out that dye is significantly more valuable later on is clearly in the right.

It's pretty clear cut.

Trankle, it is true what you say what you say, however many people in this game are selfish. They only care about themselves even before they began playing this game they were. I started a guild a week ago. It taught me something. I had a few people join always the first thing they ask "Can I be an officer?" or "Can I have some gold?" or "Can I have a green item?" and others every day asking can I have a few k of gold? or a level 3-5 asking a 20 "can I farm with you". They never stop to think about anything even the altruists never question other's motives. They simply act without questioning why?

People are easy to manipulate because people are stupid. They simply believe what they are told without ever question. Never questioning anything or finding things out on there own, never stopping to think "Is what I am being told right, is it correct?" The media, the government, the school system, your parents, your freinds, the military, the president, so many more lie on a daily basis. But this is the reason people are like this they simply accept whats put in front of them. Lieing is so common people simply except it.

The only way to get ahead is to seize your goals in a stranglehold be it in a game or life. If others are found to be useful exploit them to further yourself. Great things never come to those who do not seize it.

Have you ever wished to change something about the world, the government? What will you do about it? You can't change something like that passively. Great change is always swift and painful and destroys those who get in the way of it.

I ask you to question yourself, question your world, question what people tell you. It is the only way to survive.

I believe that buying dye in pre sear for cheap prices from unsuspecting people is an unethical thing to do. It's a con. It's not right, and it's not fair.

Now if you had said this all happened in Lion's Arch or Drok's I really wouldn't have a problem with it. By this point in the game you should have some basic knowledge how things work, and you would have had an oppOrtunity to have visited a dye trader.

Ethics seem to be disappearing rapidly from the world today. Empathy and compassion for your fellow man seems to be all but gone these days.

My car got a flat tire once. I was out in the middle of basically nowhere, I had no phone, I had no knowledge of tire changing. A young woman (late teens/early 20's) stopped and asked if I needed help. Of course I said I did, and she replied, "For $5 bucks, I'll stop somewhere and call for help for you."

Was that wrong? Did that girl do anything illegal? Was she just some entrepreneurial type that saw an oppOrtunity to make some cash? I think not. I think she was a jerk.

I believe every possible ethical and moral explanation for how ridiculously absurd this type of logic is; has been explored on this thread.
For my Two cents, I'll throw you a few examples of the type of "exploitation" inwhich you sight as not wrong.

Enron
Martha Stewart
Nike, Gap, (Child Labor, Exploiting poor impoverished families who need the extra income.)

I could sight endless more, but one might get the idea from these examples. I'd also like to ask, If there is nothing explicitly WRONG with what these people and companies have done. Why has the law seen fit to punish them accordingly?

If you still don't see why expoiting people is seen as wrong, I have another word to pitch to you.

Borderline personality disorder (BPD)

This thread finished yet?

Yeah, um, you realise that the people in paragraph 1 are behaving the way you recommend in "paragraph" 3, right? Can you imagine how much more you'd enjoy your guild if everyone had been...cool?

You sure mean to make this bigger than it is. This isn't about survival, this is about people being ****heads in a game. There's a big difference.


Wow, that really sucks. /shakes head

Even if he really needed the $50, he'd still say "thanks!" to me when I tell him it's worth way more, and go off to pawn his kidney for more money. My actions were justified. I think that's what you were saying, because now I can't really understand what I just quoted, the Sudafed must be kicking in.

Anyway, it's an analogy, and I think it defines the ethical case very well. The assumption that "everyone knows a kidney is worth way more than $50" is irrelevant, because a guy trying to sell his for $50 apparently doesn't know that. Hell, mostly everyone has two, so why wouldn't they be cheap?

wow....you really are just a bad person. Just because this is the way the world is currently working does not mean you HAVE to fall into that trap. Why become just another pile of sludge. Rise above the muck to become a better person. If the world sets it's values at a 5, set yours at a 10.

I would much rather dye proud of the way I lived then of what I achived.

I wish i know your IGN Master_Gorrila because with your ethics, I never want to do business with you, in game or in real life, even if you would treat me fairly.

Good Ethics = Good Business

This is my last post here. I know you think your this enlightend individual with great knowledge about how the world works, but I really hope you one day become truely enlightend about more then just phisical gains.

The better way to use these terms is to not use them at all.

Everytime I hear someone use the words "newb" or "noob", I basically take their perceived intelligence and/or maturity level down a few notches.

I know everyone here has experienced a scam or con in their life; some people will state, that, “individual should pay for being a con artist” while others will state, “that was a great entrepreneurship.” The fact in being that I remember when I had no idea about the GW economy within the game; I found myself wonder how things worked, looking for right pricing for items and other things. As a matter a fact I still got scammed when the prices just had fallen on the Superior Absorption Rune, I paid out 15K more then I should have paid out. My fault “yes,” but at the same time this individual jumped on the ban wagon to make sure he took advantage of the situation.

It is a scam when people take advantage of the ignorant just for profit. It’s like saying, “we can kill certain people because it’s contained within our religions doctrine” (the Crusades, Salem witch trials). However going back to your example of antiques well I believe in certain instances when the buyer and the seller are both ignorant its fine. Otherwise it causes great dismay to either the seller or buyer when they find out the truth later on. So I would have to disagree with you on the fact, that it is not a scam to take advantage of the ignorant.

QFT
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It's good to see the forum community pretty much in tandem with each other on one particular issue. I feel like im at a community stoning!! So exciting!

True, you must not hestiate in life, but in real life you can go to prison
for breaking the law, in GW you just get banned for short period of time.

You got alot to learn in life still dude, ppl have been trying to change
things since the dawn of man, get in line with your your "agenda" like
everyone else.

I suggest you not argue everything that comes along and just listen and
go your own way, the comment of argueing religion is one of the most
pointless and fruitless things in the world to do, as you get older you
will realize argueing politics and religion are a total waste of time and
you only get so much it, make the best use of it you can..

I am not a bad person. Merely someone who knows how the world works. I have a cyniccal, amoral, and untrusting nature. I know it. Morality is something that cannot be easily defined, it is fluid changing based on the situation.

There are two types of people. Those who do not question, who do not think, they are tools. And then there are those who have initiative and use those tools. I am not a tool.

I don't have faith in society it is full of idiots. Society doesn't care about me. Why should I care about society? Look at the world you live in. I was born in the U.S. and am a citizen of it, yet I hate this government. Full of hypocrisy and half truths it is, no more lies. Democracy, f*** that. This is not democracy it is closer to an elected dictatorship. The president is moron, a tool. All poloticians are full of s***. They can't be trusted.

Have any of you ever questioned the yourself and the world. I don't think many of you have. Good is no better than evil. They are relative. They can't exist without each other and therefore have some level of equality.

You don't think I think of the consequences? I do, everytime. When do you think I will be punished for what you call misdeeds? The afterlife? I beleive that there is an afterlife but not the way it is described in western religions. Why should we be punished or rewarded for our short and insignificant lives here?

You say I have a lot to learn? I agree. But I have already leaned much and the desire for more knowledge is always present.

To me, this situation sounds much like “real life” insider stock trading. A player profiting from using advanced knowledge of the game’s economy at the expense of other players not having access to the same information (i.e. dye traders in post-searing) is wrong…

Just ask (the aforementioned) Martha Stewart…

…too bad their isn’t a virtual “ankle bracelet”…

People this is as useless as a rubber chicken in a gunfight. A rip off/scam rant has become a ethical/moral/world discussion...wtf? This seem odd to anyone else? As Father Anansi said it has become a public stoning, and I can't possibly be the only one who has noticed that Master_Gorilla_Man is thriving on it, he is replying constantly, making bigger and bigger soap-box statements.

Guys, lets not feed the troll k?

I agree with Shakti, lets just close this discussion. There's no point in trying to argue a point to someone who will never listen. And to someone that is using every statement against him to push a political, moral, ethical justification.

Moderators please close.

"The only way to get ahead is to seize your goals in a stranglehold be it in a game or life. If others are found to be useful exploit them to further yourself. Great things never come to those who do not seize it."

Then how can you complain about the government and the politicians? They just found useful people and exploited them to further their own careers and agendas.

And ffs, please go out amongst the idiots and purchase a dictionary.

OK, since the OP had now decided to take this from a discussion about ethics in a video game, to a soapbox sermon designed to wake up all the "sheeple" wallowing in their own complacenecy, I think I'll bow out.

Yes, dude, you're Jim Morrison. You're really raging against the machine there. It's all well and good to go through the whole "I'm a tortured cynic, burdened with the horrible knowledge of the way the world really works" thing when you're 15, but please don't go through it online. You'll just end up being embarrased by it later on.

You know, there is a world outside of the United States. If I were you, I'd take a year to go out and explore that world. Might change your entire outlook on society and cultures as a whole. Beware of culture shock however, there are quite a few countries whos government aren't as amoral as this one (USA). *gasp*

The United States isn't the pinacle of moral and ethical governance by any means, lol Oh man is this country corrupt! From the exploitation of the Mexican economy through NAFTA, to the regulation of nuclear proliferation in Iran while on the same dollar helping India with it's aquisition of nuclear power. You would be surprised how many people share the same beliefs as you,even go as far as crashing planes into the twin towers. (not saying you mgiht do this, this is on the extreme end of the spectrum.)

Morality can not be easily defined; but to say it is utterly fluid, from scenario to scenario? That is worse than saying there is no morality at all. In seemingly similar situations, different answers will be provided by different people, or even the same person operating under a consistent code of ethics, because each situation is unique and may emphasis a different value---but ...

... what you're saying is the same as saying the freezing/melting point of water is obviously changing because when you add salt on a frozen driveway, the ice melts. That is hardly the case. The inherent melting point of water does not drop when you add salt. Rather, the addition creates an entirely new solution. You're not dealing with the same thing at all anymore.

There is a vital difference in not being a tool, and using them malevolently. When you use tools, you depend on them for your benefit. You need them, every bit as much as they need you (so you would say) to think for them.

The true greatness of man comes forth when he needs other men to neither think nor act for him. Don't be a tool; but don't depend on them either.

But, of course, you are one who would give a "level of equality" to good and evil. Perhaps as social ideas, they can change from culture to culture... yes, that may be true. But we're not talking about social fads, are we? We're talking about man, and the ongoing civilization of men. People like you--opportunists, justifying the sacrifice of others by pointing to the way the "real world" works, to the importance of self gain or your own intellectual superiority.... people like you, working through--and in a sense, in tandem with--the people you call tools, are the reasons civilizations decline.

Tools must learn to think for themselves, yes.
But you, too, must learn to act for yourself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sk, et al: this is actually a little entertaining, though a bit sad.

I am no troll. My reasoning for creating this topic was to seek understanding from fellow guild wars players I had hoped more people would have similar thinking. How ever you do nothing mre than say I am wrong rather than think about what is being said. Right and wrong are words that have no meaning to me since they are such personal terms. Do you wish to know what I am? I think for myself. I want humanity to think as well. But the ways things are people will simply keep with the herd mentality. Regardless if the herd is going off a cliff. No one cares and I am saddened by it. All I ask is to question, to not simply do as you are told to do. You say I am a bad person I am not. As I have stated before, I know how the world works. You either walk on others to get where you need to be or someone will walk on you, simple.

There is no conceivable way to make someone do something he doesn't want to do. So just do what you want, and other people will do the same. Actions do have consequences, and I hope you grow up before you have to face important decisions.

Suggestion:
Become greater than the world.

Give some people more rope and they'll hang themselves.

You really need to question your own beliefs. I agree that there a lot of stupid people in the world, but I wouldn't count you among the enlightened.

Had to laugh at "Good is no better than evil." You go to great lengths to avoid admitting you're wrong. Why not just admit that you wouldn't like to get ripped off? Why not admit that you can't always have enough knowledge to avoid getting ripped off? Why not admit that it is good for us as a group to help one another?

The reason we're on top of the food chain is because of our social nature and our willingness to cooperate and help one another. Evolution has designed us this way. Sounds like you've been scammed in life and have taken on a lone wolf attitude. I'd recommend not letting that experience determine who you are. It takes more courage to open up to others and trust them than it does to shut others out. The latter leads to sadness and depression. Even an idiot like Dr. Phil knows that.

If you can find peace living your way, you'd be the first person ever to pull it off. I'd say congratulations, but I'm not sure it's a positive achievement.

Dude...you are 16 (says so on your PUBLIC profile). Of course you think you know how the world works.

And yes, people should question things. Thinks like why am I still posting to a 16 year old? Why aren't I doing any work at work right now? How do I still have a job? Damn is it time to go home yet? Is it October 27th yet?

It's often times amusing to see a fairly simple discussion on something such as exploting new players' lack of knowledge regarding the actual worth of ingame items spiral down into a tangled morass of moral debate. Since the OP appears to have adopted a position of insuperable arrogance in laying down not only his distorted morality, but the two 'archetypes' of people who make the whole thing work (I really thought this Sheep and Sharks nonsense died out with Leg-Warmers), I'll adopt a similarly overbearing tone. If I rub anyone up the wrong way, then I apologise, but I imagine it will be instructive.

To address the original point: there is no system of ethics, or no functional (internally consistent) moral code of which I am aware that states it is either good or (different concept in morality) 'not-bad' to knowingly exploit someone's lack of knowledge for personal gain. You can twist your words and employ as many euphemisms and absurd examples as you may choose, but that simple fact will remain immutable. Strictly speaking, this is more an exploitation than a scam, but happily (for me, Plato, Socrates and Archimedes) those are morally equivalent, so that little bit of sophistry won't save you.

Your defence that 'people should know the value of things before they sell them' is specious in more ways than I care to count. Firstly, the most likely people to be taken in by this are truly new players, who have never had the opportunity to establish the value of dyes or other items. You seem to be suggesting that everyone should read a guide on how to avoid scamming before ever starting out in the game, and while this is good advice, I can't understand why you seem to be supporting the sort of behaviour that makes this necessary.

There are far too many passages of poorly thought out pseudo-logic to the effect that 'both parties have agreed a price, even if one of them isn't in full possession of the facts - so no harm is done,' in the preceeding pages. But that ignores the fundamental point. The example given is not of a new player trying to hawk any colour of dye for whatever amount, but rather a (presumably) experienced player who knows precisely what all these things are worth offering far less than the going rate. He's not passively taking advantage of people selling things below value, he's actively soliciting sellers, offering a price which must seem huge to genuine newbies (after selling hundreds of wands and shields to the Pre-Searing trader for 1-2 gold each, who wouldn't be tempted by someone offering 90 gold for something the merchant tells you is worth 1)?

The monk who tried to intervene is to be applauded if anything. As mentioned, the people most likely to be affected by this are genuine newbies - that 9k black dye is worth a heck of a lot more (as a portion of total wealth) to someone who installed the game this afternoon for the first time than it is to some mendacious degenerate exploiting the naivety of people who haven't yet realised just how many wretches in this game are sadly willing to scam them.

Is it exploitation? Certainly.
Is it a scam? Since the person was actively implying this was a fair price, Yes.
Was the monk wrong to intervene? Not if anyone values 'responsible citizenship.'
Is there any redeeming feature at all in the scammer's actions, or your defense of them? No.

*applaud*

Ooh Oh! I got one! Or even, why the heck is bush sending rice to China? Anyone find this slightly odd? The guy votes in favor of diplomacy and yet refuses to sit down and talk with representatives of North Korea, instead he sends more rice to china, WTF MATE.

This thread dead yet? Think it was in it's last death throws from post one, Har, Har. But seriously..Moderator?

http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=96

I have some advice for the OP. As you know that your viewpoint is not widely appreciated in the world, don't start arguments with people you know won't agree with you. It's a waste of time. Also, your interference was against your expressed views. You should have ignored the situation.

My response when seeing possible cons, or a player asking for game info or PCs, is to direct them in public chat to guildwiki.org & guildwarsguru.com. If I know the answer (and it's short) I will give them the info they need, but still direct them to the websites.

Thus, instead of the monk's method of spamming "scammer," which helps no one and annoys everybody (though her intentions were good), all newer players (and some older ones) are notified of help sources. (And the "scammer" label might not be true. No one knows that the buyer won't tell the seller the inflated value of black or silver dye.)

I have been accused of scamming myself. During the Festival, dye prices jumped up as everyone wanted to dye their dragon masks. I have a large collection of dye because I don't have any interest in standing around selling it. So, when the dye trader ran out of certain dyes, I would offer it for her selling price. I was called a scammer by several people. I wasn't conning or scamming anyone. I was selling unavailable dye at normal trader prices instead of the usual discount prices.

I'll try to refrain from using real world examples because they are complete overkill.

Regardless of your religious beliefs, it is unknown whether or not the beginning of human civilization came with a set of rules on right and wrong. So basically, we as a society made up the rules on how we would thrive, and they occasionally become muddled by people with distorted thinking. The OP has a case of "My acts go unpunished, so you cannot say they are wrong." There are plenty of things people do behind closed doors, but that does not make them justifiable. One person was trying to profit from the lack of knowledge of others. Another person pointed out that these items are worth more (maybe not in the best way). The person you have a problem with was providing information that would benefit multiple people. You wanted them silenced, which would only benefit yourself and other people who tried to sell them. Now, your behavior does not suit the majority, but it helps out a group of people similar to yourself.

You have selected a philosophy that states: "We should only do actions that benefit ourselves, including, using our advantages (or knowledge) to profit at the expense of other people." If you want to argue that this the correct philosophy to take, then you have no right to complain if another person comes along to exploit the situation at your expense. Why should I not join along with the popular opinion and make you look like a fool so that I can benefit from the situation?

The point is, you are wrong. You want others to have tolerance for your beliefs while having no tolerance for theirs. It does not benefit us to have tolerance for you. Therefore, you do not want us to follow the beliefs that you tell us are "right". It is absolutely clear that you have a contradiction within your own moral standards, and that's all I need to tell you that you are wrong. Other people may be wrong in this thread, and have an apparently opposing point of view, but that does not make you right.

I also disagree with your beliefs from a personal perspective. This is a game where it is easy to make enough gold to pay for the necessities from farming. This extra gold is going towards luxories, and it is most likely being taken from people who have trouble affording necessities (because of lack of knowledge). Your use of knowledge is exploitative, and it is highly unneccessary for you to profit.

The only people who are justified as to exploiting (by their own belief systems) would not have access or knowledge about farming, and no knowledge that they are not acting in the best interest of other players. This would follow the mental insanity clause that most court systems follow, and honestly, there won't be many people who can claim this. The rest of them need to accept that their behavior is "wrong".

What does "wanting humanity to think," "or doing as you're told" have to do with the fact that you're a jerk in-game and obviously hang out in waaaay too many goth/pseudo-intellectual forums. Step outside and get a little sun. It's going to be a beautiful day.

Tell mom and dad you're having problems and need some help. Or even better, tell your school counselor, he/she should be able to see the signs of someone spiraling down the way you are.

I'll give you some help right now. Shut your computer off right now and leave it off. Go borrow a football from someone and gather a few friends, (no not the wrist slashing goth ones). Go outside and play. Trust me, you'll feel much better.---Don't turn that computer on for awhile.

Man it was so cool being a teenager and knowing EVERYTHING. But I guess I failed because I tried to avoid walking-all-over anybody and I ended up with a happy marraige, a house, 2 kids, 3 dogs. I guess it's time for me to rethink things...

So to the OP is it then okay to sexually exploit a juvinile because they don't understand the value of their own body?

meh.

So the world isn't a nice place and if you want to make it to the top, you can't be a nice guy, ne? Hate to burst your bubble but I've become quite successful in life, love, and video games without having to submit to such a blind and simplistic mentality.

You may, by all means, choose how to live your life in both the real world and the digital. Hell, they don't even have to coincide. I'm sure many 'digital dicks' are quite nice irl and many nice gamers are total jerkoffs irl.

Fact of the matter is, you just took a 12 year old for their milk money and you are trying to rationalize it? Well be my guest. If you are satisfied with your behavior at the end of the day, then so be it. Not everyone can take pride in being a good samaritan. If you are the type of person who would rather spend your life placing yourself above all else and at the expense of others, then there's really not a whole lot anyone can say on a Guild Wars internet forum to change your mind.

Good luck

I think morality is roughly defined as 'a sense of what is right/good or wrong/evil'.

What a person's morals are, now that can be fluid.

Anyway, what surprises me is not the fact someone was trying to buy dye cheaply but the fact that you had to tell someone to shut up when they decided to inform people that you can get more for certain dyes if they wish to keep them for later in the game.

Scamming debates aside, I can see no reason why you would care if the target newb dye sellers got more information. To use that analogy about the £500 item in a shop for £50, its just the same as said shopowner looking up the item and then changing the price to £500. Of course is disadvantageous to the buyer of the item but still just as fair game as buying it for the proposed £50 in the first place.

If exploiting kids/newbies was wrong, every price check guru would be going to hell. It's just a game, and when I first started I'd be more than happy to get 500g for some stupid black dye...

In fact I remember trying to sell a black dye for 500g, and no one was responding, so I went to do some quests and got a silver dye. Next time I went into ascalon I noticed a dye trader so I went to sell the silver, and found out that I could get 8k for my black dye... Sure I was glad I didn't sell the black for 500g, but if I had I'd just take it as a harsh lesson.