The New AI: The Unpragmatic Rationale
x64600
My 2 cents. Maybe this has already been said. This is my take on the situation.
Some people assume this AI update will hurt the gold farming companies which sell gold causing them to raise their prices. This assumption could not be more wrong. They will simply adapt their tactics, & work in groups. The gold selling companies have camps of workers. They do not have to work solo. They are not stupid. Never underestimate people who get paid to play video games.
As has been said before what this AI update will do in fact is encourage MORE players to buy gold rather then farm it on their own. You think the gold selling companies are upset? Maybe at first but in the long run after they realize their getting more business they will be cheering the loudest.
I wonder if Anet is making a profit under the table from this? Maybe I am a bit paranoid but I do not see the logic in forcing more players to buy gold.
So the demographic of solo players gets nerfed. So what. Anti social loners need to suffer more. To bad we can not detect them at birth so we can drown them before they give us all a headache with the whining.
I am just kidding though. I am one of those anti social loners that prefers to solo because morons in groups tend to get me killed.
Some people assume this AI update will hurt the gold farming companies which sell gold causing them to raise their prices. This assumption could not be more wrong. They will simply adapt their tactics, & work in groups. The gold selling companies have camps of workers. They do not have to work solo. They are not stupid. Never underestimate people who get paid to play video games.
As has been said before what this AI update will do in fact is encourage MORE players to buy gold rather then farm it on their own. You think the gold selling companies are upset? Maybe at first but in the long run after they realize their getting more business they will be cheering the loudest.
I wonder if Anet is making a profit under the table from this? Maybe I am a bit paranoid but I do not see the logic in forcing more players to buy gold.
So the demographic of solo players gets nerfed. So what. Anti social loners need to suffer more. To bad we can not detect them at birth so we can drown them before they give us all a headache with the whining.
I am just kidding though. I am one of those anti social loners that prefers to solo because morons in groups tend to get me killed.
Shanaeri Rynale
A Guildie and I wondered what effects this would have on ebay gold prices, so we checked the 1st week of Nightfall. They were about $80-90 per 1000K, we checked again last night and they had fallen to $50-60. The same as they were towards the end of factions.
In short the AI changes have done nothing to force the price of gold up,only seemingly increasing demands for it
In short the AI changes have done nothing to force the price of gold up,only seemingly increasing demands for it
jackie
True.
Ebay subculture ends when Anet shutdowns it's servers. More players buy ebay money now than ever.
Personally I didn't care so much of how the AI update changed farming. What hit me was that Guild Wars changed so much in many other ways as well. Running, enemy chases around map even if you have speed boost, AoE dmg behavior is weird, enemy caster behavior, etc.
I'm so totally used to the old AI that now everything feels weird and pushes me away from the game. Takes some time from me to get used to the new system.
Ebay subculture ends when Anet shutdowns it's servers. More players buy ebay money now than ever.
Personally I didn't care so much of how the AI update changed farming. What hit me was that Guild Wars changed so much in many other ways as well. Running, enemy chases around map even if you have speed boost, AoE dmg behavior is weird, enemy caster behavior, etc.
I'm so totally used to the old AI that now everything feels weird and pushes me away from the game. Takes some time from me to get used to the new system.
Alya
Unfortunately we still haven't heard from Anet.
Does really the current AI work "as intended"? (despite the numerous evidence showing that actually the AI is broken; for example see the topic "Yet More AI Strangeness" on GW Online, which takes 34 pages:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=428162).
Will this issue be addressed?
I am sure that many players would appreciate if Ms Gray stepped up and clarified the Anet position on the current AI. Her last posting was made on November 11, i.e. 19 days ago. Sadly, she was silent after that.
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...&postcount=254
Does really the current AI work "as intended"? (despite the numerous evidence showing that actually the AI is broken; for example see the topic "Yet More AI Strangeness" on GW Online, which takes 34 pages:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...d.php?t=428162).
Will this issue be addressed?
I am sure that many players would appreciate if Ms Gray stepped up and clarified the Anet position on the current AI. Her last posting was made on November 11, i.e. 19 days ago. Sadly, she was silent after that.
Quote:
"Don't worry, the designers know about this thread, and other similar threads. They'll appraise the comments, the reports, and the movie and I'll share their comments after they've had time to do all that. It's Friday, and they've been swamped with other issues, but I know they'll attend to this soon. Thanks for your patience." |
Wtf Its A Monk
yea i think that a little clarification is in order.......i hope that we get some info soon
WasAGuest
What I'm suprised with is not only the lack of a response, but a lack of a fix already. The player base can tell the AI is broken; every time even one of the Anet worshipers steps up to say how much they love the new (broken) AI, they also state it's possible to work around it... question is, why are we having to work around a broken system?
Anet is releasing the Elite mission now? My question is why? If we can get into the elite mission, will the AI still be set for circus clown mode, or will we finally get a fight on our hands? Will the AI still ignore the aggro bubble? Will the AI still forever and instantly chase the monks in circles*? AI should have been fixed long before they even considered releasing the elite mission, at least IMO... so now we get to enter the elite mission and watch the AI pretend to be in a circus?
* For those saying insta-aggro on the monks makes since; consider the stupidity of the AI first. When a PvPer targets the monk does the monk know he/she is the target before or after they are hit? The AI knows and begins it's flee script the second it is called as a target; or as the heroes and henchies do, they start running in infi-circles before even taking a hit. When a PvPer chases a monk, do they eventually have enough smarts to adapt and change targets to something they can actually hit? The AI doesn't have this ability to adapt and therefore is stuck in perma-chase. Lastly, this is PvE, not PvP - stop trying to force the crap PvP tag like game down the PvEers throats. We want powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag.
All this current AI has done is made the game less fun and massively annoying. There's no adapting to something that is simply no fun; so before some poor clueless individual says "adapt and get better"; I ask, "Why are the players being forced to adapt to something that is clearly broken and less fun than it used to be?" : As I said before we want: powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag.
Anet is releasing the Elite mission now? My question is why? If we can get into the elite mission, will the AI still be set for circus clown mode, or will we finally get a fight on our hands? Will the AI still ignore the aggro bubble? Will the AI still forever and instantly chase the monks in circles*? AI should have been fixed long before they even considered releasing the elite mission, at least IMO... so now we get to enter the elite mission and watch the AI pretend to be in a circus?
* For those saying insta-aggro on the monks makes since; consider the stupidity of the AI first. When a PvPer targets the monk does the monk know he/she is the target before or after they are hit? The AI knows and begins it's flee script the second it is called as a target; or as the heroes and henchies do, they start running in infi-circles before even taking a hit. When a PvPer chases a monk, do they eventually have enough smarts to adapt and change targets to something they can actually hit? The AI doesn't have this ability to adapt and therefore is stuck in perma-chase. Lastly, this is PvE, not PvP - stop trying to force the crap PvP tag like game down the PvEers throats. We want powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag.
All this current AI has done is made the game less fun and massively annoying. There's no adapting to something that is simply no fun; so before some poor clueless individual says "adapt and get better"; I ask, "Why are the players being forced to adapt to something that is clearly broken and less fun than it used to be?" : As I said before we want: powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag.
Wtf Its A Monk
Very well put.....i agree 100% with you WasAGuest....lets just hope that Anet sees the light so far it looks like they havent
it seems to me that anet wanted to stop people from playing alone and encourage team play (as stated in many peoples posts)....but what about the people that enjoy the challenge of going out on their own to make money and solo. i think that it is unfair to punish those people for using skills that let them solo. seems like anet wants everyone in the game to have an even playing field and for everyone to be equal but without the competition of soloing and getting the best overpriced items guildwars is no different than a regular RPG. MMOs are supposed to have competition but with the way Anet is pushing it, it seems that they want us to go through the storyline(even that is hard with the AI running around like a bunch of idiots on speed) and be done with the game other than PvP. PvErs will always find a way to farm regardless of how horribly mangled the AI is. So why even try and stop thing that gives some players the most satisfaction.
I guess the question is.....Will Anet's desire to destroy the solo aspect of the game also destroy the rest of the game play in PvE as well?
it seems to me that anet wanted to stop people from playing alone and encourage team play (as stated in many peoples posts)....but what about the people that enjoy the challenge of going out on their own to make money and solo. i think that it is unfair to punish those people for using skills that let them solo. seems like anet wants everyone in the game to have an even playing field and for everyone to be equal but without the competition of soloing and getting the best overpriced items guildwars is no different than a regular RPG. MMOs are supposed to have competition but with the way Anet is pushing it, it seems that they want us to go through the storyline(even that is hard with the AI running around like a bunch of idiots on speed) and be done with the game other than PvP. PvErs will always find a way to farm regardless of how horribly mangled the AI is. So why even try and stop thing that gives some players the most satisfaction.
I guess the question is.....Will Anet's desire to destroy the solo aspect of the game also destroy the rest of the game play in PvE as well?
Silent Coyote
I just want them to fix it so hench and heros will attack called targets, because so far they have ignored every call I have given them for at least the past two weeks.
Thallandor
The more i play the more pissed off i get at the game....something is wrong.
Zeph
Quote:
Originally Posted by WasAGuest
What I'm suprised with is not only the lack of a response, but a lack of a fix already. The player base can tell the AI is broken; every time even one of the Anet worshipers steps up to say how much they love the new (broken) AI, they also state it's possible to work around it... question is, why are we having to work around a broken system?
Anet is releasing the Elite mission now? My question is why? If we can get into the elite mission, will the AI still be set for circus clown mode, or will we finally get a fight on our hands? Will the AI still ignore the aggro bubble? Will the AI still forever and instantly chase the monks in circles*? AI should have been fixed long before they even considered releasing the elite mission, at least IMO... so now we get to enter the elite mission and watch the AI pretend to be in a circus? * For those saying insta-aggro on the monks makes since; consider the stupidity of the AI first. When a PvPer targets the monk does the monk know he/she is the target before or after they are hit? The AI knows and begins it's flee script the second it is called as a target; or as the heroes and henchies do, they start running in infi-circles before even taking a hit. When a PvPer chases a monk, do they eventually have enough smarts to adapt and change targets to something they can actually hit? The AI doesn't have this ability to adapt and therefore is stuck in perma-chase. Lastly, this is PvE, not PvP - stop trying to force the crap PvP tag like game down the PvEers throats. We want powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag. All this current AI has done is made the game less fun and massively annoying. There's no adapting to something that is simply no fun; so before some poor clueless individual says "adapt and get better"; I ask, "Why are the players being forced to adapt to something that is clearly broken and less fun than it used to be?" : As I said before we want: powerful, dangerous and difficult mobs to fight, not wussy infantile games of tag. |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thallandor
The more i play the more pissed off i get at the game....something is wrong.
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Come on Anet, sort it out before people start quiting the game through frustration.
ricoboom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh a GW forum
Farming was monotnous and tedius already, I can't bear spending 10x more time and effort on the same exact run with the same reward...
I don't like Pvp, pve was why I played this game. Apparantly that's not good enough for Anet? I'm really sick of having anet spit in the face of pvers. I think I'll start looking into WoW. |
- it is farming avery day, every night
you need at least 30-40 days to get to 60 lvl cap, AND THEN real farming/grinding starts,
with good guild (and there alot of crap guilds, and only 1-3 good on each server),
farming MC and ZG to get gear for all guild (and all members of the guild need good gear you know ) will take 1-3 months,
you need good gear for next level of elite Area - AQ,
AQ is very hard even with good gear, farming it will take alot (i didnt even did it ) )
then, after AQ there another elite area added several months ago
and in january they will introduce "burning crusade",
to find FINiSH in WoW you need to play ~6-12 month of farming
i have played WoW alot, but i will never return, because i know that getting to the end will take alot of my life .. but WoW and PvP in WoW is fun, i think it is more exciting then GvG in GW, just imagine 40 vs 40 battle
Myria
Quote:
Originally Posted by x64600
Some people assume this AI update will hurt the gold farming companies which sell gold causing them to raise their prices. This assumption could not be more wrong. They will simply adapt their tactics, & work in groups.
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None of this is exactly rocket science, one presumes that Anet/NCsoft is well aware of the end-effects of their efforts. Given that, it would seem wise to re-evaluate the original premise. Are the anti-farming changes aimed strictly, or even primarily, at the bot farms?
Anet's model produces an unusual, perhaps even unique, disincentive. If I play a pay-to-play MMO, the company making that MMO has every incentive to try to get me to play as long as possible -- if I stop playing, I stop paying. GW's model is the exact opposite. Anet/NCsoft got all of their money up front, every moment I play costs them some of that money. The less I play, the more money they make off of that particular sale of the game. Somewhere out there, and I've no doubt Anet knows exactly where, is a line whereby if you play that long you actually start costing them money. They have an incentive to see that I play as little as possible, and a strong incentive to see that I don't play so long that I cross that break-even point -- or even really come close to it. They have to balance all of that against the need, if they're to survive, of making sure the customer feels like they got their money's worth and the possibility of future sales, but overall they have a strong disincentive to encourage long-term play.
Farming takes time, lots of it. Farmers on these forums routinely talk about farming 3+ hours per day. The average player doesn't farm much, if at all -- hell, the average player probably never even finishes the storyline. Farmers have a bad rep in some more socialistically-minded circles, and then there's always the ever convenient anti-bot farm excuse to fall back on. All in all, farming is the low-hanging fruit of the customer-who-plays-lots tree, trimming those branches is not likely to negatively impact Anet/NCsoft's bottom line and it probably would improve it in the long run.
If indeed all of the anti-farming changes are an attempt to get the bot farms then Anet is, quite frankly, a whole lot dimmer than I give them credit for. If instead their purpose is to minimize farming in general, in part in an effort to try and minimize the amount of time some players play, then things start to make more sense.
People invariably act in their percieved best interest, the often difficult trick is to discern what it is they percieve as their best interest. Companies, too, act in their percieved best interest, but there the nature of their percieved best interest is generally quite easy to discern. Examine Anet/NCsoft's clear and obvious best interest and I think the reason for many of the changes this game has seen are pretty clear.
Blackest Rose
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph
Come on Anet, sort it out before people start quiting the game through frustration. |
I haven't played GW for 3/4 weeks now....and I'm not missing it as much as I thought I would. It's amazing that such a great chapter like Nightfall can be marred by this stupid update.
The AI update has completely ruined it for me.
Nerf FUN! FTL.
I only keep up on the forums to see if Anet has come to their senses yet and actually fixed the AI.
I'm not asking that we revert back to what it was but for the AI to actually make sense again.
What we have today is NOT what is documented in the patch update notes.
F*** it's what's "intended" - it's just not FUN
I'll give it a whirl after the december update but if they give me reconnects, improved trade, hairstylists, armor inv, key inv, dye inv and 1000 plat - it's still not enough to make me come back to actually play this damn game again.
Game is fundamentally broke right now ..... fix it Anet!
Young Hero
I'am also done-driven away by never ending FUN nerfs.
I think this thread sums everything up
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10071356
and these words from Gaile herself seal the deal for me-
"The key AI change on 10/25/06 that some players are finding somewhat annoying is the fact that melee monsters now back off. That is new; that is intended; that won't be changing."
Keywords being-"that won't be changing"
Nice job on killing fun and loosing another customer
I think this thread sums everything up
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10071356
and these words from Gaile herself seal the deal for me-
"The key AI change on 10/25/06 that some players are finding somewhat annoying is the fact that melee monsters now back off. That is new; that is intended; that won't be changing."
Keywords being-"that won't be changing"
Nice job on killing fun and loosing another customer
ValaOfTheFens
The New AI isn't that bad. I've adapted my strategy and moved onto actually playing NF. Its pretty funny when my Heros and I are pounding away at a guy and then just when I think we've defeated the mob there's one guy behind us doing nothing at all!! Sometimes this monster will be fully aggroed yet not attack and in some cases will walk off without attacking. *lol* If anything the new AI works in our favor. I was fighting a mob of Heket yesterday and there was a mass of them towards the middle(there about 12 in all) that were just standing there getting pounded. Weird but fortuitous.
ricoboom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
hm why can't anet just seperate the pvpers and pvers? maybe they can make a skill work differently in pvp than pve? some ppl like me just will never ever pvp. pvp is extremely annoying for us we can even stand one sec of pvping?
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PR and PvP chars :/
Apharot
I'm amazed at the lack of maturity I'm seeing in a lot of posts here. You pay, what, $40 for a game and play for free after that? How much is a WoW account? How much was Asheron's call per month? Everquest? You pay $40, get way the heck more than you would for $40 bucks worth of everquest time, etc. So the game is a little flawed. I'll remind you that you're playing for free. So they are fighting farmers. Good, I say! Fight the runners that are running low levels to places they can't get on their own. Seriously, quit whinning about something you are basically getting for free. While I'm at it, the person who said it's in Anet's best interest to get you off the server...least thought out post ever. Doing that would kill them, as no one would come to play.
Seriously, let's put a little thought into things before we fly off the handle.
Seriously, let's put a little thought into things before we fly off the handle.
gobla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugalator
Look into WoW if you think farming was already monotonous while the farm builds was working?
Wow, I think you've seriously misunderstood what WoW is all about! |
WoW had an excellent split between solo play and team play. Solo play was easy to do and quite fun, you could go out at any time and just kill a few mobs in a relaxed way while doing some quests and making some money while chatting to your guild. It was quite enjoyable. Team play took a long time wich was bad but It was challenging, rewarding and quite fun. Say what you want about WoW, but you can not deny that it IS a great game ( even though you may not like it yourself. ) and has excellent solo and teamplay. The only problem of WoW lies in that raid equipment makes your character GOD and you simply cannot compete without it.
Pre-Nightfall Guild Wars had this excellent split as well. You could just do a relaxed troll run and get some some money wich could be used to buy new skills, armor or weapons and at the meantime have a good conversation with guildies. And Teamplay was fun and rewarding. 5man FoW and B/P Tombs runs were very enjoyable and rewarding. Missions required a good amount of coordination and skill and were very challenging. The Title System made it worth doing the bonus.
Now After Nightfall this balance is completely and utterly destroyed. Soloplay was utterly destroyed by the Improved Monster AI. Sure, it can still be done but it's no longer relaxed and enjoyable. It's now long, tensy, stressfull and simply no fun. Teamplay was utterly destroyed by heroes, why take a mesmer or ranger if you can have a hero who can interupt 1/8 cast time skills? Why take a normal monk if you have a hero who never overheals and has a 0,000000001 second reaction time? Why take a warrior who may just turn out to be a Mending-Frenzy-Heal Sig Idiot if you have a hero with the perfect build? This goes for every single class in the game. Mission outposts currently only include 2 party sizes: 4man ( player and 3 heroes ) and 8man ( player, 3 heroes and 4 henchies or another player and 3 heroes. ) Heroes were supposed to fix having to look for a character for an hour, but for those of us who actually wish to enjoy the online aspect of this game it now takes a whole lot longer ( and that's coming from a monk, I can't imagine how it must be for other classes. )
In Prophecies I remember the good days in Wich every single outpost had LFG *Insert Random Quest Here* Spam, all of that now seems to have become WTB/WTS spam. Now I actually HATE questing, It's practically Impossible to find a party for random quests. And Henching is just soo dreadfully boring. It's simply too perfect, they never make mistakes if you play it right. What's the challenge in that? In a real party you have to devise strategies to hard encounters, you have to adapt to your team members so you work in perfect unison and together you have to cover each others mistakes.
Guild Wars Currently is mostly a MultiHenchman Offline Role Playing Game
Blackest Rose
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myria
Examine Anet/NCsoft's clear and obvious best interest and I think the reason for many of the changes this game has seen are pretty clear.
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I would have thought that it was in Anet's interest to attract as many players as possible to the game.
Different people like to do different things : PVP, PVE missions and quests, farm, FF etc.
The only way I could see the AI update working in Anets favor is if they have worked out that they will attract/keep more players that they have currently by changing the AI to what we have today rather than leave it the way it was.
Of course we don't know the sales figures and I for one don't think it's representative anyway since I had preordered 2 copies of Nightfall BEFORE the AI update.
Chapter 4 sales will be very interesting...
Young Hero
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apharot
I'm amazed at the lack of maturity I'm seeing in a lot of posts here. You pay, what, $40 for a game and play for free
|
2 accounts chap1- 100$
1 Factions account-50$
1 NF CE edition-70$
4 character slots because storage system in GW completly sucs-40$
260$ US dollars is leaps and bounds from free
natuxatu
Is it just me or has it gotten worse perhaps in a recent update.. not so much with the enemies but the henchies and heroes.. I've been okay with the new AI system.. I think I even defended it a little.. but just recently I've noticed that my heroes and henchies are attacking whatever they please sometimes no matter how much I target on an enemy.
Maybe it was just the map I was on or combo of heroes/henchies either way I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I was getting a little frustrated last night when they weren't listening to me like.. at all lol
Maybe it was just the map I was on or combo of heroes/henchies either way I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I was getting a little frustrated last night when they weren't listening to me like.. at all lol
x64600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wtf Its A Monk
Very well put.....i agree 100% with you WasAGuest....lets just hope that Anet sees the light so far it looks like they havent
it seems to me that anet wanted to stop people from playing alone and encourage team play (as stated in many peoples posts)....but what about the people that enjoy the challenge of going out on their own to make money and solo. i think that it is unfair to punish those people for using skills that let them solo. seems like anet wants everyone in the game to have an even playing field and for everyone to be equal but without the competition of soloing and getting the best overpriced items guildwars is no different than a regular RPG. MMOs are supposed to have competition but with the way Anet is pushing it, it seems that they want us to go through the storyline(even that is hard with the AI running around like a bunch of idiots on speed) and be done with the game other than PvP. PvErs will always find a way to farm regardless of how horribly mangled the AI is. So why even try and stop thing that gives some players the most satisfaction. I guess the question is.....Will Anet's desire to destroy the solo aspect of the game also destroy the rest of the game play in PvE as well? |
I really like Nightfall. The story is great, the setting is intriguing. & the graphics are gorgeous. I did not have a hard time playing through. But some of my friends found it to hard to keep up with.
It is really awesome. But I am seeing to many people lose interest all of a sudden.
Another thought also comes to mind that the current AI being an obvious attempt to slow people down. Creates an illusion of a slower pace similar to Prophecies.
What should have breathed more life into Guild Wars. Merely irritated, & alienated quite a few players. It is the most loyal of us that continues to endeavor on. & most RPGs are overly dependent on their most loyal followers.
Ninna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Hero
260$ US dollars is leaps and bounds from free
|
but im sure there are plenty of people owning only 1 chapter and no extras
Cyril Aspect
I'm puzzled everytime these wonderful little "discussions" about the new AI crop up because I cna easily run away from monsters evne without a speed boost, in fact I have to fight far less monsters in many parts of nightfall and I've been using the same famring build since I got to the crystal desert in prophecies. Maybe I'm jsut really lucky but I have never seen the so called whackyness so is it really common?
also don't the same people get tired of posting in these threads evey time anyhting changes? I know I took a break from arguing with you guys for quite a few months because it began to seme silly, I think I'll go bakc to not posting soon considering the lack of informed non opinionated positions still present.
also don't the same people get tired of posting in these threads evey time anyhting changes? I know I took a break from arguing with you guys for quite a few months because it began to seme silly, I think I'll go bakc to not posting soon considering the lack of informed non opinionated positions still present.
Zeph
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackest Rose
Of course we don't know the sales figures and I for one don't think it's representative anyway since I had preordered 2 copies of Nightfall BEFORE the AI update.
Chapter 4 sales will be very interesting... |
I pre-ordered both factions and nightfall but it's very doubtfull I will pre-order chapter 4. I think I will wait until I read what others have to say first.
Apharot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Hero
Not sure what your talking bout
2 accounts chap1- 100$ 1 Factions account-50$ 1 NF CE edition-70$ 4 character slots because storage system in GW completly sucs-40$ 260$ US dollars is leaps and bounds from free |
Blackest Rose
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apharot
I'm amazed at the lack of maturity I'm seeing in a lot of posts here. You pay, what, $40 for a game and play for free after that? How much is a WoW account? How much was Asheron's call per month? Everquest? You pay $40, get way the heck more than you would for $40 bucks worth of everquest time, etc. So the game is a little flawed. I'll remind you that you're playing for free. So they are fighting farmers. Good, I say! Fight the runners that are running low levels to places they can't get on their own. Seriously, quit whinning about something you are basically getting for free. While I'm at it, the person who said it's in Anet's best interest to get you off the server...least thought out post ever. Doing that would kill them, as no one would come to play.
Seriously, let's put a little thought into things before we fly off the handle. |
I won't bother doing the math for you but I have invested a hefty chunk of money into this game and until the AI update I was getting great value.
Now not only have they killed my value in my preorders of Nightfall but also Factions and Prophecies PVE too.
They've turned my investment into crap overnight.
My value went to zero with the AI update as I hate playing the game in it's current incarnation.
I am not a farmer - played every class, a lot of my toons have protector titles and I do nearly all if not all the quests.
I've paid enough money for GW to fund WOW for quite a while if I chose to - but I actually don't like WOW even though I own it.
Saying that you can play for free is not enough reason to accept a major game change which ruins it AND PREVIOUS CHAPTERS for many people.
I've had 3/4 weeks of thought and guess what - I still feel the same.
Whenever I give NF a go - I play for an hour and end up more frustrated that I started with because of the AI update. Why should I play something with frustrates me now when it didn't previously...
Myria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackest Rose
I would have thought that it was in Anet's interest to attract as many players as possible to the game.
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Several eons ago I used to work with a guy who was a big believer in the Pareto principle. Applied here, it would suggest that 80% of resources are likely being used by 20% of customers. While I have no way of knowing for sure if that's the case, it would surprise me greatly if things weren't in that ballpark. In most businesses you simply have to tolerate that because invariably that 20% are also your best, most lucrative customers. For better or ill, in the GW model that is most definitely not the case. Anything they can do to minimize or eleminate that 20%, without significantly impacting the other 80%, it is strongly in their best interest to do so.
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The only way I could see the AI update working in Anets favor is if they have worked out that they will attract/keep more players that they have currently by changing the AI to what we have today rather than leave it the way it was. |
The people the AI changes impact the most are not the 80%, the average players who probably barely notice or care, but instead the 20%, who most definitely notice and care. It makes much more sense to me that such is the intent, rather than thinking the AI changes as yet another inefectual swipe at bot farmers that just happens to render regular player's farming and, to a lesser extent, standard playing tactics a tedious nightmare.
Young Hero
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Originally Posted by Apharot
I've got NF, Factions, and Prophecies. 8 character slots, plus the storage, and then the storage upgrade that has the extra storage just for the upgrades. I didn't pay anywhere near $260 USD. About $120 if each game cost $40. So $120 = 8 character slots. Even if I did pay $260, how much does one year of WoW, or Everquest cost?
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Blackest Rose
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Originally Posted by Myria
On one end of the scale you have those that buy the game and never play more than an hour or three (my sister did exactly this, and I doubt she's the only one by a long shot), if even that, and on the other there are those that buy the game and play for literally thousands of hours (like, well, a lot of us here on this forum). It is in Anet/NCsoft's best interest to minimize the latter and maximize the former whilst catering to the vast bulk who are going to be somewhere in between.
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I would probably agree with the principle of 80-20 split between small-time players and big-time players, but it's entirely possible that that 20% of people account for far more that 20% of revenue given they're the ones most heavily invested in the game.
I'm one of the 20% but they've lost me going forward.
You could look at it like the "take your money and run" attitude. They have my money for all the previous chapters but....
No more double collectors editions of chapter 4,5,6 and probably not even GW2.
You just won't see an immediate impact as it's not pay to play.
If this happened in something like WOW cancelled subscriptions would be an immediate indicator.
Still their choice. I'm in the lucky position that I can afford to buy a bad game now and again (yes I view NF as a bad game with the AI update associated with it). No biggie but they won't get me to shell out again in a hurry...
Apharot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackest Rose
Apharot - I own 2 accounts and have purchased each of the chapters some with collectors editions.
I won't bother doing the math for you but I have invested a hefty chunk of money into this game and until the AI update I was getting great value. Now not only have they killed my value in my preorders of Nightfall but also Factions and Prophecies PVE too. They've turned my investment into crap overnight. My value went to zero with the AI update as I hate playing the game in it's current incarnation. I am not a farmer - played every class, a lot of my toons have protector titles and I do nearly all if not all the quests. I've paid enough money for GW to fund WOW for quite a while if I chose to - but I actually don't like WOW even though I own it. Saying that you can play for free is not enough reason to accept a major game change which ruins it AND PREVIOUS CHAPTERS for many people. I've had 3/4 weeks of thought and guess what - I still feel the same. Whenever I give NF a go - I play for an hour and end up more frustrated that I started with because of the AI update. Why should I play something with frustrates me now when it didn't previously... |
Apharot
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Originally Posted by Young Hero
WoW is 20$ for game and around 13$ month to play- cheap
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Young Hero
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Originally Posted by Apharot
Why is it $20 a game? Because you shell out $156 a year to play. That's one year, and WoW sucks. Let's say that NF costs $40. You purchase NF...$40....for the entire life of it. That's a major difference in price.
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I dont currently play WoW and never have but 13$ a month is reasonable when compared to the hidden fees of GW-aka pack mules and having all chapters for access to all skills.Neccessary buys if you want the most out of the game
Elruid
I agree with much that has been said in this thread. I'm awaiting the new patch that has been said to be coming out tomorrow to also introduce a new update to this AI.
Apharot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elruid
I agree with much that has been said in this thread. I'm awaiting the new patch that has been said to be coming out tomorrow to also introduce a new update to this AI.
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Apharot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Hero
I dont currently play WoW and never have but 13$ a month is reasonable when compared to the hidden fees of GW-aka pack mules and having all chapters for access to all skills.Neccessary buys if you want the most out of the game
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PersephoneSaturna
I love how some people expects to pay for a game and pay more to actually play the game and thinks that is the norm. Those people are the reason why WoW is Blizzard's money tree and the subscription fee model is so prevalent for major MMO type games.
WoW may be cheaper today, but when it was first released the price tag was well above, if not on par, with a full fledged game without subscription fees. We'll see how much the expansion will cost.
As for me, one of the reasons I support GW is because I like their economic model and the game. I hope that with GW's success, more MMOs will choose Arena.net's economic model.
WoW may be cheaper today, but when it was first released the price tag was well above, if not on par, with a full fledged game without subscription fees. We'll see how much the expansion will cost.
As for me, one of the reasons I support GW is because I like their economic model and the game. I hope that with GW's success, more MMOs will choose Arena.net's economic model.
WLlama
Ok...so we have WoW at current pricing:
$20 Initial Investment
$13/Month = $156/Year (After the 1-month included in box)
And GW original pricing (given 1-year Proph and 6-month Factions/NightFall)
$40 + $40 + $40 = $120/2-Year = $60/Year
If you want CE:
$70 + $70 + $70 = $210/2-Year = $105/Year
Hmmm...I still don't see how these cost arguments work out to be in favor of WoW. Plus, you aren't required to buy new chapters, you can get discounted PvP packs for the unlocks, and most of the chapters can be found on sale for < $40 just like WoW has gone from $49.99 -> $20 over time.
On a side note, even with 2 accounts on original pricing of CEs you only exceed WoW by $100 per year and you can play on two computers (or with two people) at the same time (a feat that would double the cost of your WoW too. Thus GW is a "savings" of $218...and that's not counting the release of Burning Crusade).
$20 Initial Investment
$13/Month = $156/Year (After the 1-month included in box)
And GW original pricing (given 1-year Proph and 6-month Factions/NightFall)
$40 + $40 + $40 = $120/2-Year = $60/Year
If you want CE:
$70 + $70 + $70 = $210/2-Year = $105/Year
Hmmm...I still don't see how these cost arguments work out to be in favor of WoW. Plus, you aren't required to buy new chapters, you can get discounted PvP packs for the unlocks, and most of the chapters can be found on sale for < $40 just like WoW has gone from $49.99 -> $20 over time.
On a side note, even with 2 accounts on original pricing of CEs you only exceed WoW by $100 per year and you can play on two computers (or with two people) at the same time (a feat that would double the cost of your WoW too. Thus GW is a "savings" of $218...and that's not counting the release of Burning Crusade).
Eclair
Can anybody sum up exactly what's wrong with the AI as of this moment?
I've read most of the earlier pages of the thread (while I was still on N00b Island). However, I've finished the game with one char already and is in the process of doing it with another character. I haven't really noticed anything particularly annoying about the AI (except for Corsair Bosuns, they seem to run a lot).
I've henched/heroed through most of the game, and found nothing too particularly aggravating.
I've read most of the earlier pages of the thread (while I was still on N00b Island). However, I've finished the game with one char already and is in the process of doing it with another character. I haven't really noticed anything particularly annoying about the AI (except for Corsair Bosuns, they seem to run a lot).
I've henched/heroed through most of the game, and found nothing too particularly aggravating.
WLlama
Most of the AI updates that matter had to do with creatures running from area of effect (AoE) damage when they get low on health. Thus, skills like Cyclone Axe, Triple Chop, Shield of Judgment, etc. cause the grouped up creatures to run after they get to "low" health. They then have a chance to regenerate their health before coming back.
Mainly, you won't see this in-game unless you are trying to farm large groups of melee monsters solo. Why? First, you don't often run these builds in a group. Second, if you do run these builds you don't necessarily maintain the aggro anyway as they find your hero/hench/other player backup.
In my opinion, I'm all for the change...with one adaptation. I believe it makes sense for monsters to run away from such damage sources. While the monks seem to have an insanely long run instinct (maybe a second thing that could be changed but not really important), I just wish that the hench/heroes would respond in the same manner. It would be nice not to have to micromanage them out of AoE spells.
Mainly, you won't see this in-game unless you are trying to farm large groups of melee monsters solo. Why? First, you don't often run these builds in a group. Second, if you do run these builds you don't necessarily maintain the aggro anyway as they find your hero/hench/other player backup.
In my opinion, I'm all for the change...with one adaptation. I believe it makes sense for monsters to run away from such damage sources. While the monks seem to have an insanely long run instinct (maybe a second thing that could be changed but not really important), I just wish that the hench/heroes would respond in the same manner. It would be nice not to have to micromanage them out of AoE spells.