Has the fun been nerfed?

I'm guessing you really aren't reading the posts or you are just in a mood to argue.

Why do you think that? Just because I disagree with your opinions? Let's not resort to being petty okay? I mean I HAVE been trying to give you solutions and tips and suddenly I'm only here to argue?

This is the reason I don't think you've been reading the posts or are in a mood to argue. I never said anything remotely like that or suggested anything like it.

What I said is you have fewer choices now because you must take something to compensate for the running away -- every battle.

I'll make this really simple for you.

I don't like the way the AI works now. You can tell me all your wonderful ideas about how to deal with it and it doesn't matter in the slightest bit. For me it makes the game more tedious and therefore less fun.

You can try to convince me liver is good if you prepare it right too, but that still won't change what my experience with liver is.

I know how to deal with the running away. There's nothing difficult about that. There's also very little thinking or strategy involved. It just isn't as much fun to play a game where a big part of the game is to kill groups of things that will attack you when you get close, but try to run away if confronted -- even if by a single player of lower level.

IMHO the change in AI was largely to curtail solo farming and had little to nothing to do with trying to improve the simulated intelligence of the creatures we face. If they were honestly trying to make the AI better and weren't concerned at all about the farming, they did a piss-poor job with the AI in general and a decent job making farming more difficult by accident.

I don't farm much so that part doesn't bother me, but I don't want to be forced to take a way to slow down enemies for every single fight. It should be like other situations where some enemies hex a lot so you bring hex removers or some knock you down so you bring balanced stance or dolyak's. That would be fine. Variety is the spice of life. Making it so at least one critter in nearly every group will take off on a cross-country run when attacked unless you bring something to slow them down is a different story.

The bottom line is IMHO the "improved" AI sucks -- not because of difficulty, but because it's less intelligent than the previous version and it adds nothing positive to the game.

That's my opinion and you are welcome to yours.

Not every single monster in Elona will run away from you at first sight. And not every profession is a Warrior/Assassin/Dervish.... the only 3 classes who would have trouble chasing their targets...

You're absolutely correct, strategy IS adjusting to different circumstances. These new circumstances require you to hunt your opponent down long enough to kill it, then its over and you move on.

Denying monsters the ability to run and you're limiting strategy. Let's see Hack and slash, monster dies? ooo, lots of strategy there...

Let me make a very obvious correction. Enemy MONKS cast cure condition. The chance that an enemy monk will use a condition cure on themselves is small, when that enemy monk has like 3 other conditions to worry about that's coming from an assassin or dervish or warrior. And not every mob has a monk, i think we're safe from monks for now.

Its annoying that warriors dont bring a res, or a bunny thumper doesnt bring healing. A party has 64 skills, and you can spare a single? So what if the snare gets removed, the target is dead by then.

OK, I'll make this one my last post.

This topic is NOT about whether or not we can deal with the running away or other aspects of the new AI. The topic is whether or not the FUN HAS BEEN NERFED.

For me the fun has definitely been nerfed. I'll still play, though probably not as much as before. I can handle the running away - it's not like you need a rocket surgeon (yes, that was on purpose) to figure that one out.

It bugs me that they changed the entire AI system to cut down on farming, which they made necessary due to the price structure in the game. It also bugs me because in my experience the new AI is less intelligent overall than the previous version.

If you enjoy the new changes, then more power to you. I have not enjoyed them to this point and it's highly unlikely that any amount of trying to explain to me why I should suddenly find this new level of tedium more enjoyable will convince me that it is.

For me if something does not have a degree of difficulty then it isn't fun.

From my experiences, only enemy monks run when you attack them.

I believe Anet added this feature so that:

1.) Water elementalists and Mesmers will have a higher purpose
2.) Knockdown skills can be incorperated into PvE, instead of only PvP
3.) Crippling will actually be useful
4.) The level of diffuclty will be closer to PvP, rather than just barraging an enemy with attacks while he sits there, doing nothing.

Just my 2 cents, but I don't understand why some people can't understand some of us play this game differently. I care for PvE over PvP, but a lot of the fun for me has now been ruined. Some of us actually prefer to solo for the most part, but group from time-to-time. Running after monsters is one thing, but running across the whole map is ridiculous.

I had just recently gotten back into GW after about 6 months or so of playing primarily WoW. I realized how much I missed GW. But then this AI update came and ruined it for me. Glad I didn't buy NF yet like I was planning on.

Again, just my opinion. I respect the fact some of you like PvP and love the changes, just some of us don't feel the same way.

for most of us who enjoyed the pve of GW the fun has been nerfed.

to those who keep saying learn to adjust, we have, we're not paying for new chapters anymore and moving on. it really is very easy to adjust. i don't see the point of paying for something i don't like. i am, afterall, the customer. if anet wants to enforce changes that us customers don't necessarily enjoy doing, then we will adjust and leave what was otherwise a wonderful game until then.

and to those who say that anet knows best, sure. try telling that to coca-cola after their new coke debacle.

Well i dont mind the changes, I never was a farmer.
I too like running around slaying by the dozens, but i'll never chase a runner across the whole map thats just daft.
I'll let the muppets do the running whilst i find the next group to kill, and if i come across him later then i'll kill him then, if i dont see him again then i dont really care, cos no doubt there will be another coward on my next quest.
My message to you would be, FUN and the notion of ENJOYMENT AND SATISFACTION is all in the head of the person who is thinking it.
I'll just play the game the same way i always have and let anet throw what they want at it.
Because its still a FUN game in my mind, and i aint wasting my money by not playing it cos of some update.

difficult is in the eye of the beholder..

you say pvp is difficult.. i say 3 man urgoz
is difficult..

you say that builds in pvp are very skillbased.. i say that builds in pve are skillbased..

Now with that said if anet was to make it so that in pvp.. due to the fact that they never get favor.. japan gets a 2 man boost to their teams in halls

(we do preach ballance after all)

.. so they can have 8 against your 6.. that is difficult right? thus you have your fun right?

most of you would be here complaining about it.. and most the pve comunity would say adapt and overcome.. just like you are saying to us...

so as long as you understand that you can be on the flipside of the cointoss.. then i guess we can all rest in peace. because i know that if you people were in our shoes.. you would be very understanding of the situation..

So far, I've been enjoying the game immensely. I'd disagree with the sentiment that it's no longer fun. I'm primarily pve, I don't pack any slowdown skills, and I mostly hench things. I haven't had any problems with it yet. Sure, sometimes a monk or something will run away a little, but I haven't had anything worse than a couple seconds of kiting. And frankly, it makes sense to me to have enemy monks kite a bit, even if it is pretty unintelligently.

It should probably also be said that I play a caster class, so that may affect how I look at the AI changes. I'm sure it's different for a melee class.

already working on a 2 man build to do uw ^_^
I miss my spot, but i have quite a few skills to chose from. Any thing works as long as i kill them fast!
Now the question is.. how to KILL them FAST. Well, whos up for the challenge to work with us to make a build and redo farming rather than wasting ur time over here to debate whether the previous update was good or bad?

Msg me if u intend to work on this project.

An Elementalist.

I want my GD "I Win" skill.
1 Energy, 1/4 cast 0 recharge. Clicking skill allows you to have everything handed to you on a silver platter.

Adapt.

Meh i don't have a problem with the new AI, it's trained on high AL rather then low now, which is fine with me. It's almost as though the gear trick works again, except it's everywhere. Also, ss is nerfed and prolly should have been from the get go, they all scatter with ss and again thats still just fine with me. Oddly enough the ele AoE skills they seem alot less affected now the before and now MM's have an even higher purpose, when the mob scatters, they dont run toward the casters, due to a minion wall.

Basically I've only ever had to chase down a few monks, most of the other mob members still stand there and take it.

Some people are missiing the point. Its simply is your gaming experience compromised by nerfs in so far as it less fun for you than before? Many replies are along the lines of adapt, learn to make changes to builds etc. Well sure, that's readily enough done. We have been doing that all along and one possible solution is to now bring snares etc or always play with a group of people among whom someone has them. There are other solutions, but its not really the point.

Is the game less fun for me with the continual nerfing, this latest in particular? Yes. Why? Its challenging to answer but basically its like swimming upstream and not gaining ground. With each nerf the speed with which one can progress in terms of earning funds, fighting through an area, farm if that is to one's taste, find good drops, running - basically all of the things we do when not playing the storyline for the sake of doing that - decreases. This is disheartening in so far as it makes it feel like progress of a character (since you cant progress in level you measure efficiency of play) is always a waste of time. Now I know this is not the case, and one can measure progress and fun by always having the game getting more challenging and things getting more difficult, but I personally do not define that as fun. Interesting, yes. Challenging, yes. Do I always want to play when its like that? No not really.

Nerfs like these always make me reconsider what I am doing playing the PvE side of this franchise. I have always bounced back and dove back in and figured out a new way to increase my fun and make play more efficient, but it grows ever more tiring. I am sure the PvP side of the game (aside from the camera recenter on target ally during a cast, and movement sensitivity - which I think is broken imho) has benefitted from the majority of the skill balancin. I just cant bring myself to agree with the other aspects of the 10/25 update. Considerably less fun imho. Doesnt mean it all in the end failed to improve full human team play - it probably did - but it certainly compromised many aspects of PvE play that are not centered on that. Quite unfortunate.

"Fun" is whatever you make of it. You chose how to play the game. You play it however you think is "fun". If the game doesn't appeal to you, move on.

Simple as that.

Stagnation is the worst killer of any activity. Especially in an online persistant world, the game has to change constantly. If things stay the same all the time, then there's no point in logging in because there will be no experiences to have.

I'm sure you agree with that and I know you think that things are too hard and frustrating. There's really no way to say anything to change your opinion about fun though. Either you think it's fun or not. There's no way to please everyone. And I'm sorry to say, this will weed out the players that can't or refuse adapt because they just dont think it's fun.

I think this is a case of where people simply dont like change. I'm sure ANET will take the risk of alienating people who cant handle change rather then let the game stagnate.

Damn that's what I wanted to say but you said in a much more concise way.

Fun is subjective. How can you say ANet nerfed fun? You can't. And besides, who cares if they did? I just don't understand why a change in gameplay mechanics can cause such an uproar. Looking back over all the updates (nerfs) to GW, this most recent one seems to be fairly minor.

I've been reading horror stories of chasing monks back to Pre-Searing, but have NEVER had this happen. Sure things run around and it's a bit more chaotic, but I never use snares in PvE and I don't intend on doing so. There is no need. A running monk isn't a healing monk, drop another target.

You are playing a game that is under the full control of ANet. You know full well that they can change the game to be whatever they want and there isn't much you can do about it. No one is asking you to play, and no one is promising fun from GW. ANet owes you an account and playtime, that's it. It doesn't promise non kiting enemies.

So, has ANet nerfed fun? Not for me. I don't mind discussion about such topics, but when has ANet ever reversed a big change? And you think this time will be different?

Look at it from the bright side: you finally have a use for Bulls Charge, Bulls Strike, and Protectors Strike in PvE. Cheer!

Sid - I have to disagree with you - if stagnation was a killer why aren't we up to our ears in threads like "change UW - it's boring!", "please nerf stuff because change is good!"
Why wasn't UW/FOW completely empty prior to the update? - it hasn't changed in months and people were happily playing.
Instead it was one of the most played high level areas of the game!

If stagnation was a killer what about all those games which got their last update years ago and people still play.... I wonder why - because they're fun maybe.

To me the acid test is the following :
Given the AI changes does it make me more or less enclined to play through parts of the game which I've already done.
The answer for me is a resounding no.

People play games to have fun - pure and simple - if fun decreases, people will stop playing that game.
No one is aguing that change is bad - it's just that change which decreases fun is bad and change which increases fun is good....

We're on opposite sides of the fence - I think the AI change decreases fun and hence my enjoyment of the game and hence I'll play less and all this may lead to me not buying future GW products.
With every change there is a gamble, if anet sell more as a result of this - great for them, if they don't it was a bad choice, it may or may not work out.

Pffft. The only people who frequent UW are there to get ectos. I doubt people want to change their routine in getting ectos. Hell, just look at the uproar when it WAS changed so they couldnt farm it easily.

Besides, you brought up only ONE aspect/area of the game. And go look at Sardelec Sanitarium and you'll see tons of threads for suggestions of change or additions.

And by the way, just because you see it as a "nerf" doesnt mean it is. That is all.

Doesn't UW have high level quests? It's it considered a high level area of the game?
Any area of the game can be considered farming - collecting orr emblems for halloween events is farming...

But let's say you're right for a minute....
It doesn't matter if people were farming there or not.
The point is that people were there to enjoy the game and have fun, if farming to some people is fun why kill it?

What if people don't play any more because farming isn't fun anymore?
Should we get rid of all those people? Anyone who goes to UW to farm ectos?

I guess it boils down to how many new players GW will get as a result of the AI update and how many they'll lose - we'll never know those numbers...

This is different from the AOE nerf - the AOE nerf did exactly what the update notes said that they would do - mosters move out of AOE. With this update many people including myself are seeing very strange behaviour from the monsters - and this does not mean better AI, just more frustration and less fun.

Well, I was about ready to quit the game b/c it was quite boring IMO. Now that the changes have been made to the AI, it is much more interesting and engaging. Indeed, I plan on continuing to purchase GW chapters. So, , we cancel each other out.

I'm not going to say this is a nerf, nor am I going to say is it the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can see that the devs wanted to make the game more challenging or as some would equate it as more fun.

My problem isn't really with the farming, because a true farmer will find other ways to farm and make their mountains of plat and laugh at people who can't do it. My problem is two fold. 1. I hate pvp, I try to stay away from it as much as possible (yeah I'm a noob I got over that title along time ago) and here they are attempting to push PvP into PvE, that's not my definition of fun by any stretch of the imagination. I like to hench alot of things, and I like to play monk while doing it (because mehnlo still can't seem to heal worth a bean) So heres my problem, the Devs didn't deem the monk worthy enough to get a Holy Snare skill and my henchies (the brains they are) don't carry one either. So what's a poor healbot to do?

My second problem is that chasing down these monsters are killing any chance of being able to get masters when the bonus is time based. I can go from one end of the map to the other zapping something for 4 hp with my wand stop go the other direction only to have the thing stab me in the back then run away again. Not fun, no sir not at all.

Like I said I have nothing against smarter AI. However when the AI turns out that AoE is dropped a quarter of the mobs go running for the kills, a quarter of them run 2 feet stop and start picking their virtual noses not doing anything, and the other half of them go haywire attacking randomly this is not smart AI. By watching the Semi final and Finals videos of GvG I'm fairly sure its not even smart PvP to do that.

Anyway, that's my two cents on how fun its gotten. Love Nightfall, love the artwork and the music, not crazy about some of the armor designs, and definitely not having fun trying to get my lvl 5 paragon to stop chasing the Corsair as he runs through a horde of skales.

Hand of Shiva: So you use mostly hench? Because I do too. I capped Hundered Blades for my warrior in Prophecies with hench...not to boast, but that's not an easy task. Working with henchmen is hard until you learn crowd control. If you truly use hench often, you should have a firm grasp of what it takes to control them and get them to do what you want. This AI update ups the bar a little bit, but by no means, makes it an undesirable experience.

Nightfall's PvE is 10x better because of this update. I truly wish Factions PvE was as good as this, maybe I wouldn't have quit the game for 6 months.

I like AI that stands there while I hack at them, but runs away when they see an unattributed firestorm. I like the fact that AI limits the number of efficient attack skills to maybe six. I like the fact that I can solo anyone who doesn't have enchantment removal without issue and I like being hopeless against mobs which have bad removal skills.

Observe dripping sarcasm.

Can you give details on what you like about it? cause saying that you quit over factions pve.. i mean what did you dislike about that?

Its not particularly hard or overly frustrating. I'm just saying its less fun. It also considerably dampens any sense of progress or development PvE-wise to constantly be under the effects of downgradings and increased difficulty. I define that as not particularly fun, generally speaking, but have always adapted and come out on top irregardless of successive nerfs and updates in the past. My only point is to support the OP that it gets tiresome and makes one feel like they are always swimming upstream.

No matter. Its to each their own to decide if its fun for them or not and continues to be so. I dont think it was the point of this thread by the OP to convince anyone of one position or the other, nor was it mine.

This is called kiting. Real players do it and monsters previously didn't.

The best way to counter it: attack your opponent from the behind and body block them. I like the new challenge a lot

The enemy density is way down. It's an encounter every 30-45 seconds instead of literally every 3 seconds. The Nightfall enemies are much more interesting as well with a lot more varied skillbars and packs. Factions was just Am Fah rangers putting spike traps every 15 paces. Factions wasn't particularly hard, it just took way more time getting to places than it should have. Plus, a lot of the quests were inside of giant mobs and required you to zone out, so you'd have to kill the same large density mobs 3 or 4 times just to get a quest done. Every once in a while, you'd get an ele boss that would basically one-shot your team with 400 damage lightning orbs. Then, on top of all that, you had to get 10K faction for each side to progress the story, and that's just where I stopped. It would have been an inordinate amount of grind to obtain 10k faction, more than I was willing to spend playing PvE at least. It didn't help that the story was absolutely dull and didn't try to involve the player at all. Nightfall involves the player by making him part of an order, has a very sensible enemy mob density and it just doesn't feel like grind.

I'm used to being kited, as I'm PvP primarily, so it doesn't concern me. It just means you got to stick in a snare or bring a water ele. I also shy away from the "nuke" spells, prefering to overload a single target very quickly. I also don't farm much either. I only have 4 PvE toons including my new dervish, and two of them already have 15k armor I want. I'm sure that I'll have enough for a 15k dervish outfit by the time I'm done with Nightfall.

Yes I do know how to work the Hench Ai, its never given me a problem however when I said level 5 paragon I meant my level 5 paragon. Now that I have to worry about everything scattering to the wind I can't tell if that corsair is running or just moving to cast at me again. But thats all in the past now I just stand there like a dummy and spam chants and shouts like every good paragon .

Anyway for those of you who keep comparing this to PvP and well PvP people bring snares and slow hexs and your grandmothers oatmeal to the table have you ever considered that in PvP when the other team kites you their not kiting you into another 10 to 20 mobs? or kiting you into a mob full of level 23 to 24 monsters?

Also as an odd occurence I keep hearing everyone saying that the mobs all rush for the tank now, however while playing with my heroes and henchies I find that my level 20 Koss isn't the target nor is the level 20 Devona hench the target of all the mobs, they all seem to go straight for the level 20 Menhlo character and they'll all go to town on him first. I'm not exactly sure whats going on with that but it seems counter to what everyone else is going on about.

Also going backwards in the chapters I find that the mobs in both Factions and Prophecies have a greater propensity to scatter then Nightfall mobs. At least the propensity to scatter for the hills on the other side of the map that is. Can anyone else confirm this?

Then DON'T kite into other mobs. It's not like they drop you in the middle of surrounding mobs when you do a mission. You approach from the side/angle that's least likely to aggro other groups and gives you room to maneuver.

Sid, you realize that this update effects all 3 chapters right? including that crap quartered rat maze known as factions? Henchies are going to kite after targets no matter what you do once you get into the fray. I have enough trouble watching for what just ran behind me much less what Talon is chasing after while Devona is off beating on something else. People need to understand that this is PvE, not PvP you can't hit the talk button and tell Talon "Dude stop before you aggro that group of.... nevermind."
You know somethings a little funny too when Gaile opens a thread about the AI and then says nothing has changed with the AI despite the update saying there were changes to the AI.

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...34#post4484234

This seems to say their aware of something not kosher and their working on it. So there might be a change in the works... might be being the keywords.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10071034

I'm telling you flatout that right now, the cause of most problems and the fix to them would be to....upgrade the human AI to something that is suitable for fighting monsters above level 15.

Apparently, according to the posts from Gaile in gwonline, the improved and praised AI changes we loved around 10/25 or so, was actually a bug that Anet "fixed" around 10/31 - which everyone is disliking... perhaps, Anet has their priorities backwards in the AI field when a bug is highly praised and their "corrected version" is hated?

A direct quote for those who are not members there:

Gaile -

Thank you, nudge, for a well-presented report on this issue. I am going to post here and may also paste over on the other thread, as well. I want everyone to read this carefully, and to consider this comes directly from Mike O'Brien, who leads the design team, and who would be an excellent source for information about "who updated what, and when, and in what way." So here's some information for you:

1. The monster AI targeting has used a system which remained unchanged from the release of Prophecies (04/28/05) until just prior to release of Nightfall, specifically 10/25/06.
2. On 10/25/06, we accidentially introduced a bug which made monsters choose targets almost at random.
3. On 10/31/06, we fixed that bug, and now the AI targeting system once again works the same way it has ever since the release of Prophecies.

The true AI change on 10/25/06--which some players may be finding unsettling or annoying and may be calling a "bug"--is a change to melee monsters that causes them now to back off. That is new; that is intended; and that would not be likely to be changed. But in all honesty, the manner in which monsters choose targets, which seems to be the major complaint in forum threads, has not changed since the release of Prophecies (aside from that brief period when the bug was in place).

With that in mind, we will continue reading the specific instances of concern about the AI, but I hope that this overview will help keep the discussion to points of actual error, and will not include reports that are based on faulty perceptions or expectations. Please also remember that the melee monster change is not an error at all.

Lastly, the Henchmen's odd "start/stop" on the skill casting will be fixed in the next Live Build. I think that'll go out soon, most likely today.
__________________
Gaile Gray
Community Relations Manager
ArenaNet
www.guildwars.com

/end quote

source link :here

@ those that called this a rant, the OP was not ranting, he stated his views & observation. You people just miss the point that not everyone is a farmer...but it IS still nice to be able to play the game without having to chase mobs that may be running you into another patrol or something...

And I think you guys are really missing the point the the Mobs aggro US in most cases, then THEY run...that's some weak sauce for you. Aggro in this game is really lame to start with compared to most other games....there is no taunting, detaunts or real way to manage aggro, nor does aggro have any real logic. To me, if the mob runs away, he should simply de-aggro since he already knows you can whoop it's butt....if he's a coward & he runs, he should not re-enter the battle. At least then it would be a little realistic.

It doesnt matter what Chapter you're playing, there's always a way to pull and then kite enemies into a better position for you to fight them. You keep telling me that I should try to understand that this is PVE and not PVP...why? I play PVE more than PVP. You trying to discredit me by calling me a PVP'er just aint going to work.

Also, if you're having that much trouble with warriors running off to aggro, then simply dont bring warrior henchies for that mission/quest. Sometimes what works for one area does not work for another. It's called adjusting and adapting.