This thread basically names all the reasons I don't take PuG monks.
Monk is a very difficult profession to play. Unfortunately also one of the more popular. It is not for me, I tried it, got 1.5 mill xp on my monk and I discovered that the red bar watch isn't for me. But I do know how to monk.
So I was going to do Thirsty River with a PuG, he was complaining in all chat about the lack of PuGs. I responded that I was just going to hench it, and if he were to try that he'll probably survive as he was an elementalist. He was polite and asked some questions so I decided to team up with him and show him the ropes. He didn't have the right skillbar (flare, firestorm), but didn't complain as I suggested a better one (even helped him zone to outposts and walk to the Ascalon settlement for missing skills). He says he knows a excellent monk who can help, so we wait for the monk to come.
This is not one of those OMG I met the worse monk ever stories, in fact the monk was quite decent and a nice player, obviously for helping out, but....
After 10 seconds of fighting her energy would be non-existant. Which I found very odd, as I was a Paragon giving everyone +44 armor level AND using mending refrain AND had Tahlorka as a prot hero AND never had any troubles solo RT healing this a few weeks ago.
Above is an issue alot of monks deal with, but just don't know it. In pve, when in a fight, having all above 80% health is usually good for you to catch any spikes (if they happen). If you try to keep all those red bars maxed you are in a world of energy problems very quickly, especially if you use cast and forget spells on targets (like heal breeze - not useful when a target has alot of health, too slow when a target needs alot of healing, not too mention the mesmer enemies that plague the higher-end stuff - yes some tanks get mad at monks for pre-enchanting them at those parts).
Sorry monks, but if you cannot manage your energy and I have to wait for you to regen after each and every fight (normal single patrol, no over aggro), then you lose your respect with me quickly as to me the great leet monks are the ones who just seem to keep healing endlessly (even in over-aggro) and you (almost) never hear.
What is with Monks today?
Effendi Westland
qvtkc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
The next time I'm an elementalist and some ranger draws the enemies straight into the middle of our group, I'll just stop casting. It wasn't okay for him to do such a stupid thing. Use your brain stupid ranger.
The next time I'm a warrior and I receive crappy healing, I won't stop mobs from getting at the rest of the group. It wasn't ok for the monk to cast orison when it could have been WoH. Use your brain stupid monk.
etc.
Sounds good? No, not really... If any player stops doing his job, usually, people will only find it a minor annoyance, though. If a monk stops doing his job, the party will die. To do something (or stop doing something) that will have a great effect on others just because you can is by definition arrogant, at least if it was implicitly understood when you started that you would do the best you can.
Also, in PvE, even if you are the only monk in a 8-man party of complete noobs, if you run so low on energy/time that you have to let someone die, it's usually your own fault. There are of course exceptions like uninfused people facing mursaat, etc., but generally it's your own fault.
gobla
Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc
In other words...
The next time I'm an elementalist and some ranger draws the enemies straight into the middle of our group, I'll just stop casting. It wasn't okay for him to do such a stupid thing. Use your brain stupid ranger.
The next time I'm a warrior and I receive crappy healing, I won't stop mobs from getting at the rest of the group. It wasn't ok for the monk to cast orison when it could have been WoH. Use your brain stupid monk.
etc.
Sounds good? No, not really... If any player stops doing his job, usually, people will only find it a minor annoyance, though. If a monk stops doing his job, the party will die. To do something (or stop doing something) that will have a great effect on others just because you can is by definition arrogant, at least if it was implicitly understood when you started that you would do the best you can.
Also, in PvE, even if you are the only monk in a 8-man party of complete noobs, if you run so low on energy/time that you have to let someone die, it's usually your own fault. There are of course exceptions like uninfused people facing mursaat, etc., but generally it's your own fault. Well Actually it does sound very good.
If the ranger pulled the mobs near to you you should actually not be casting. You should be gaining distance, ditching agro and kiting damage. Same goes for all casters. They should get themselves into safety.
If the monk is doing crappy healing the warrior should indeed stop tanking as it's the only thing he can do at such a time. The only time where healing can possibly be crappy is when someone dies ( This does not mean that everytime someone dies healing is crappy. It only means that if nobody dies then healing is not crappy. ) And seeing as your example affected the tank it means that the tank is in fact dead, if he wasn't then the healing would not be crappy. And if the tank is dead then obviously he can't tank and thus should stop trying to as it's quite useless.
And I'll leave the solo 8man healing and nobody dying comment aside, not worth replying to.
The next time I'm an elementalist and some ranger draws the enemies straight into the middle of our group, I'll just stop casting. It wasn't okay for him to do such a stupid thing. Use your brain stupid ranger.
The next time I'm a warrior and I receive crappy healing, I won't stop mobs from getting at the rest of the group. It wasn't ok for the monk to cast orison when it could have been WoH. Use your brain stupid monk.
etc.
Sounds good? No, not really... If any player stops doing his job, usually, people will only find it a minor annoyance, though. If a monk stops doing his job, the party will die. To do something (or stop doing something) that will have a great effect on others just because you can is by definition arrogant, at least if it was implicitly understood when you started that you would do the best you can.
Also, in PvE, even if you are the only monk in a 8-man party of complete noobs, if you run so low on energy/time that you have to let someone die, it's usually your own fault. There are of course exceptions like uninfused people facing mursaat, etc., but generally it's your own fault. Well Actually it does sound very good.
If the ranger pulled the mobs near to you you should actually not be casting. You should be gaining distance, ditching agro and kiting damage. Same goes for all casters. They should get themselves into safety.
If the monk is doing crappy healing the warrior should indeed stop tanking as it's the only thing he can do at such a time. The only time where healing can possibly be crappy is when someone dies ( This does not mean that everytime someone dies healing is crappy. It only means that if nobody dies then healing is not crappy. ) And seeing as your example affected the tank it means that the tank is in fact dead, if he wasn't then the healing would not be crappy. And if the tank is dead then obviously he can't tank and thus should stop trying to as it's quite useless.
And I'll leave the solo 8man healing and nobody dying comment aside, not worth replying to.
qvtkc
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobla
Quote: Originally Posted by gobla If the monk is doing crappy healing the warrior should indeed stop tanking as it's the only thing he can do at such a time. The only time where healing can possibly be crappy is when someone dies ( This does not mean that everytime someone dies healing is crappy. It only means that if nobody dies then healing is not crappy. ) You obviously did not get my point, so I will make it clearer. Crappy playing is ok. GW PvE is so easy (in most cases) that a party can play rather badly and still everything goes quite well. A mesmer can run ahead and agro 3 groups onto the team and sure, the monk can choose not to heal her as punishment... OR he can choose to heal her and everyone will still survive.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule, there are cases where everyone must play really good or else the whole party will be wiped out. But such cases are uncommon. Not healing someone just because he is clumsy, or out of spite, isn't ok.
Quote:
Protector of Tyria title on my monk char. Have not yet bothered with the other campaigns as monk cause i have 10 chars and limited time |
Originally Posted by gobla
And I'll leave the solo 8man healing and nobody dying comment aside, not worth replying to.
Translation: I know that qvtkc is right so there is no point in trying to say anything
(and of course, not making sure that there is a br necro in the team before starting a hard mission or similiar falls under "your own fault")
Effigy
qvtkc, no offense but you don't strike me as someone who plays a monk. When you say that a monk should never run out of energy or it's his own fault, this is very telling as to your monking experience. Good monks know how to conserve energy, but if monks never ran out then no one would ever die except to perfectly executed spikes (and we all know how common those are in PvE).
Your example is different from that of Rera and others because we are not saying you should stop healing someone permanently, just like a nuker should not stop nuking permanently or a tank stop tanking permanently. You have to react to the situation. If someone is overaggroing, not kiting, or otherwise wasting all your energy, then it's better to let them die so they don't drain you dry and get the whole group killed. This isn't some kind of protest, it's simply the pragmatic thing to do. Like gobla said, nukers and tanks can also reasonably stop doing their appointed role under some circumstances. For instance, if you're a tank and you stop getting healed, that's probably a good sign that the monk is running out of energy and you should start pulling out of the spawn. This isn't a protest against the monk's "crappy" healing, it's a practical course of action to take in that situation in order to avoid a wipe. If you're an ele and you get aggro, you should stop casting and start kiting like gobla said. Your last comment is simply untrue. Monks have to manage their energy, but your teammates actions have a very big effect on how that energy ends up being used. This is especially true when solo monking.
Jenn
A lot of people unreasonably accuse monks of having an attitude.
Those who "monk for money" in a party are an entirely different story - they should be slapped in the face with raw chicken  Having said that, there's plenty of monks who Don't ask for money, yet appear to have an attitude. Consider this, for those who have never monked: - Taking care of the overwhelming growth of stupid people is difficult - People assume that you're there to heal them while they run off stupidly - People don't take personal responsibility for their own actions - It's not always the most fun thing, sitting and watching little red bars - It's stressful, because you DO feel the burden is on you to keep the party alive in times where you may be babysitting an entire gang of dummies. In my opinion, it's usually the monk who knows best if a party is going to fail - they're there taking the heat with everyone else, AND trying to keep them alive in a mission. A monk best knows their limits, and if this party is capable or not to handle what lies ahead. Allbeit, I don't ragequit even if the party is ridiculously difficult to succeed with - I can understand why some monks do. Have sympathy for the monks! They are there to *help* you when and IF situations get sticky NOT due to another player's fault (i.e. over aggro, not following called targets, not kiting). A group should be able to reaonably take damage, if they play smart, and monk should not have to overextend their healing just to keep a few people alive. geekling
You missed one salient point in your little list. (Which I'm not directly disagreeing with, BTW.) It's probably been said before, but it bears repeating.
Monks are usually in the more often than not unique position of being aware of what everyone else in the team are up to. This is probably the largest factor in monks having a percieved attitude, they're the ones that pay attention and not always keeping quiet about what they see. They have to, well not speak out. But be aware, that's part of the job description. The monk needs to know where everyone in the party is, who is taking damage, who's not. Who's kiting to avoid damage, who thinks he's leroy jeenkins, who stands still in a AoE without even taking two steps to the side to avoid the damage. Who is attacking, who is not, who is over extending. Who is in the middle of a mob, who's on the backlines, where the next mob is and how many mobs there are in the area etc. etc. etc. Many other professions can get away with putting blinders on and just concentrate on their own stuff, not having a clue what the rest of the team is up to. Hitting c+space, watch the red bar go down, hit c+space again over and over again. At the most they're aware of the monk, in that they don't die and every now and then there's blue numbers over their head. But the average tank hasn't got a clue what the nukers on the back line is up to. Or the rangers, or even the other tank in the party. The monk's like santa claus, she knows if you've been naughty or nice. qvtkc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Effigy
|
Quote:
- You're not a ranger or warrior and you pull? I let you die
- You're not a warrior and taking major damage for more then 10 secs? I let you die
- You're rushing ahead of the group? I let you die To me, it sounds about the same... "You mess up, I stop doing my job". As I said, not healing someone cause that someone is clumsy is not ok. As a warrior, not body blocking so that your monk can escape some melee mob because that monk uses the wrong skills is also not ok. Am I clear enough by now?
Refusing to heal someone who is on the other side of the compass map agroing 50 aatxes while wearing armor bought in yak's bend is another thing entirely.
I still stand by this statement:
Having to sacrifice the life of one to save three others is not your failure.
Not healing a player who you can heal with no ill effect on your team is your failure, even if that player "should" do whatever he does in some other manner.
Quote:
- You're not a warrior and taking major damage for more then 10 secs? I let you die
- You're rushing ahead of the group? I let you die To me, it sounds about the same... "You mess up, I stop doing my job". As I said, not healing someone cause that someone is clumsy is not ok. As a warrior, not body blocking so that your monk can escape some melee mob because that monk uses the wrong skills is also not ok. Am I clear enough by now?
Refusing to heal someone who is on the other side of the compass map agroing 50 aatxes while wearing armor bought in yak's bend is another thing entirely.
Quote:
You are right, I spoke hastily. But I did not mean obviously retarded things like monks casting Meteor Shower. I meant people who, when they see a wammo using Mending, will ping that 300 times followed by no healing for that wammo. I meant people who, when a caster pulls an enemy group, shouts "STOP THAT OR I LEAVE!!!!" (and then actually leave). I mean people who will insult my friend for keeping the party alive. And these people happen to be mostly monks.|
Originally Posted by Effigy
Your last comment is simply untrue. Monks have to manage their energy, but your teammates actions have a very big effect on how that energy ends up being used. This is especially true when solo monking.
I was in the ruins of the tombs of the primevial kings the other day. In a b/p team. We had one monk. He ran out of energy every now and then. He called his energy... 2 of 45 or whatever... Then the orders necro would run up to him and cast some random spell and then the monk would keep healing
 its all voodoo magic i tell youI have also seen monk/mesmers using some kind of purple skill to gain energy back, omg, and other tricks too ...of course, there will always be occasions where it's just too much, you get no help from your teammates and on top of that they aggro more enemies while you are already low on energy. You will be out of options and someone will die, so you have to make choices. That much is obvious. But the cases mentioned so far... I mean come on, "You're not a warrior and taking major damage for more then 10 secs? I let you die" - if they are already amongst your casters, and you can't keep people alive, chances are that once you let that caster die they will just go for the next one and you can't keep that one alive either.
XvArchonvX
I think one of the largest reasons that monks draw so much heat when they run out of energy is because they are different on their energy expenditure than other classes.
A good elementalist/necro/warrior/whatever will have a build that will provide roughly the same income as their expenditure. It is possible for a non-healing type class to roughly guess what their energy expenditure will be since they will be performing an action that is generally at the same intensity throughout battle. Monks (or any other healing defensive class for that matter) are at the mercy of the degree of damage dealt to their party. A group might take a small amount of damage or it might take a ton of damage. There really isn't a realistic limit to the amount of dps a group can be dealt, but the group's damage output is relatively constant. Therein lies the difference in classes and because of such, I believe, there are many out there who don't understand why monks can run out of energy when they (the damage dealer) don't random.name
Lets look at the 'not healing a player' issue by looking at a example of a common occurance.
You are the only monk in a group of 8. Of those 8 one is a Sin, and one is a warrior. Now, you run into a normal patrol of 4-6 enemies. Sin shadowsteps in, and takes full aggro. His armor is simply not equipped to sustain the damage of the whole group. The sin immediately eats a huge damage spike, so you have to start healing. But no, that is not enough. Because he is eating the spike, you actually have to stack the heals on him. Group dies, Sin survives and everyone is happy. Now take that exact scenario and translate it into a mission like Vishnu Square. Same sin, aggros a group of 8. Now lets see any HEALING monk try to keep that sin alive. Because he is eating a huge spike, I have to stack heals on him. Lets say my energy gets to 20 at this stage, and only one of the original 8 enemies have died. I now have to make a choice. Do I keep on healing the Sin untill my energy is 0? Or do I realise that that I have another 6 people depending on me to keep them alive and that with no energy everyone will die except that one assassin that cant seem to realize his role in the group? To me the answer is clear.
the_jos
Quote:
I was in the ruins of the tombs of the primevial kings the other day. In a b/p team. We had one monk. He ran out of energy every now and then. He called his energy... 2 of 45 or whatever... Then the orders necro would run up to him and cast some random spell and then the monk would keep healing its all voodoo magic i tell you.
A nice example of a good team setup. |
And other players have the right to interfere with my gameplay by doing stupid things and making my job difficult? If I (the monk) decided to tank a bunch of melee mobs, or run off and aggro a patrol, or start casting Meteor Shower instead of healing the group, do you think they are going to sit quietly by and "do their job" while I make a fool of myself? Of course not. They'll be spamming things like this:Default team layout: - 5 barrage / pet rangers - 1 minion master - 1 orders necro - 1 healer When order necro is using Order of the Vampire (+17 at 16 attribute points) and rangers use Vamp bow string (+5) they are hitting for +22 health with each arrow. That makes 132 health they gain when hitting 6 enemies. The pets and minions should take most damage, so less healing required. The only time the healer should be stressed is when someone is in the middle of the Meteor Shower or when a ranger fires through Emphaty. The grasps can be handled with a little Throw Dirt. Sure it's no vodoo magic, but when you are not running a skillbar full of 5 energy spells you will run into energy problems sooner or later. Effigy is right when he says you team has a very large influence on the energy of the monk. You'r B/P story only confirmed this. About energy management: With a default PuG, you cannot rely on a blood ritual necro. Mantra of Recall (the purple mesmer thing) is an enchantment, works in Prophecies, works less in Factions and Nightfall (more enchantment removers). E-drain (other mesmer elite) also works (the full 7 energy every 25 seconds with 9 inspiration, when the target has at least 6 energy left). And puts the monk in the danger zone. Offering of Blood (necro Elite) nets 10 energy every 15 seconds, but takes 20% health. I won't even talk about that one monk e-management Elite that no-one uses. So much for energy management on monks.
Rera
Quote:
Originally Posted by qvtkc
Crappy playing is ok.
This is the fundamental difference between your viewpoint and mine. We can argue the issues as long as you like, but as long as this difference remains, nothing either of us says will make any difference.
Your analogy to nukers that stop nuking and warriors that stop bodyblocking is inaccurate because either of these actions punishes the entire team at once. The correct comparison to a nuker that stops nuking is a monk that won't heal anyone. The accuracy of this revised comparison is obvious when you consider the effect on the player herself: a nuker that doesn't nuke might as well leave, just as a monk that won't heal anyone might as well leave. The distinction, of course, is that a monk can pick and choose who to heal. One moron in a party of otherwise intelligent, capable players can be surgically removed by the monks, actually leaving the party better off. A nuker or warrior has no such precision with their actions. If all of your nukers stop nuking, your entire party is in serious trouble. If all of your monks stop healing one idiot, the rest of your party can go their merry way. But again, the fundamental difference between you and me is that you think "crappy playing is ok". If you can't be bothered to move out of a maelstrom, even after being told, you're an idiot, end of discussion. I refuse to put up with it, and I shouldn't have to. How I spend my time is my choice alone, and I choose not to spend it babysitting morons.
Poison Ivy
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_jos
About energy management:
With a default PuG, you cannot rely on a blood ritual necro. Mantra of Recall (the purple mesmer thing) is an enchantment, works in Prophecies, works less in Factions and Nightfall (more enchantment removers). E-drain (other mesmer elite) also works (the full 7 energy every 25 seconds with 9 inspiration, when the target has at least 6 energy left). And puts the monk in the danger zone. Offering of Blood (necro Elite) nets 10 energy every 15 seconds, but takes 20% health. I won't even talk about that one monk e-management Elite that no-one uses. What are you talking about...there are plenty of Energy Management techniques and skills, for example Signet of Devotion & Signet of Rejunvanation [Free heals] Healing Seed [The more damage you prevent, the less you have to Heal] Tell the casters to kite Kite when your getting pwnd Don't overheal Tell that damn Leroy if he does something stupid/reckless, you will pretend he's not in the team. and my favourite: Screw pugs, hench 4 life.
the_jos
I know Signet of Devotion (don't like the 2 seconds casting time, but indeed free heal)
Have not used Signet of Rejuvenation yet (1 second casting sounds a lot better). Healing Seed is a good skill, but I don't use that one very often. I know how to preserve energy. Example: a couple of days ago I was with a 8, later 6 person team on Ring of Fire, one of the 6 was not infused. Ran my basic WoH build, one member who dc-ed took one protector hero and some other hero, both were ressing the non-infused person all the time. The lowest I got on energy was around 10. The occasional Life Sheet from the prot hero (when he was not ressing) did help me  I cannot control the other characters, so other people kiting and leroying are something I can help with. And that's the "very big effect on how that energy ends up being used" that's Effigy was talking about. The 'not healing the Leroy' has had quite some comments (both healing and not-healing). My thought on this: When he's not draining all my energy, I heal (like the non-infused player mentioned above). When he's up, he deals damage and when he takes damage someone else does not. I like the 'screw pugs, hench 4 life' option. That's my quest strategy. But I like to play my missions with real people. But, in general, it's the way the party plays that determines how the energy of a (good) monk is used. It's not so much the (secondary) energy-gain skills that 'qvtkc' was talking about. Those help somewhat, as do the skills you mentioned. liquiddrool
We're angry because boon prot was nerfed.
Akhilleus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
This is the fundamental difference between your viewpoint and mine. We can argue the issues as long as you like, but as long as this difference remains, nothing either of us says will make any difference.
Your analogy to nukers that stop nuking and warriors that stop bodyblocking is inaccurate because either of these actions punishes the entire team at once. The correct comparison to a nuker that stops nuking is a monk that won't heal anyone. The accuracy of this revised comparison is obvious when you consider the effect on the player herself: a nuker that doesn't nuke might as well leave, just as a monk that won't heal anyone might as well leave. The distinction, of course, is that a monk can pick and choose who to heal. One moron in a party of otherwise intelligent, capable players can be surgically removed by the monks, actually leaving the party better off. A nuker or warrior has no such precision with their actions. If all of your nukers stop nuking, your entire party is in serious trouble. If all of your monks stop healing one idiot, the rest of your party can go their merry way. But again, the fundamental difference between you and me is that you think "crappy playing is ok". If you can't be bothered to move out of a maelstrom, even after being told, you're an idiot, end of discussion. I refuse to put up with it, and I shouldn't have to. How I spend my time is my choice alone, and I choose not to spend it babysitting morons. very, very well said. IMO, its not ok when people i play with start doing stuff, and far, far more importantly, its not ok when i start doing stupid stuff. i'f im tired as hell and my heals or prots arent getting there on time, and people are coming dangerously low to dying, and i see that theres an issue, i will do my best to sharpen up and fix it. the mentality of "it doesnt really matter" is stupid, even more stupid is the "its just a game" excuse when people engage in an act of absolute debauchery. yes, it is just a game, but guess what, right now we are playing the game, and i'd rather not have to do the same thing a seccond time because of 1 imbicil. when i monk; if someones being a class-action dumbshit, that person gets to die, and gets to not be honored with one of my resurrects. i'll tell the rest of the party they are an idiot, we're better off without them, and not to res them. if they dont listen and do so anyway, when that person dies a few more times they will eventually figure it out for themselves and quit supporting "jerry's kids." if im on my warrior, and i see a monk cant handle their stuff, i'll slow down a bit. and if theres a seccond monk, you try to get the two to split the party up. 1 heals the top 4, the other heals the bottom 4; and any time someone is on the verge, send a heal their way regardless. this tends to solve the problem if 1 out of the 2 monks is a dud, though occasionally 1 good monk cant make up for 1 crappy one. if an elementalist cant do their job, you start getting them to follow targets. you do as much as you can to fine-tune the group; cutting off the fat where needed, and making the most of what you have. and if people still dont respond; if people still keep on ressing that 1 kamikazi-warrior, if the monk keeps on healing people who are at 100% hp and then calling for energy, if the nukers keep wasting AoE skills on 1 foe, and in rapid sucession, casuing them to flee, and otherwise advice and commands reach deaf ears, then you have a civic duty to leave that party (no matter your character class) so they they can learn stupidity isnt tolerated. so long as you walk around displaying the idea that playing half-assed is ok, you contribute to the degredation of the gaming quality of the population. as long as you demand more of people, and screw them over as best you can when nothing is done, they may (eventually) realize the true source of the problem, and fix it, making the gaming population better as a whole. the only perceived downside to my philosophy is that you can end up pissing off a few people that werent worth playing with anyway. is it a harsh stance? yes. but its also one aimed at improving things.
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus
If I still have 15 energy or more ill heal every moron in range, if it sinks below 15 I have to start making choices and that's the moment the moron dies. Not my problem if he/she plays like horsecrap when I tried all I could...
Precisely.
My whole stance on this is if, say, I'm in a group with someone who appears to be getting targetted more than any other character...like someone in Zen Daijun who is still in starter armor...let's call him "Mr. Assassin"...after they have taken so much healing off me I have to then make a decision whether to continue or just stop. If I continue my energy may become too depleated, so sometimes it seems neccessary to just stop healing "Mr. Assassin" for the good of the rest of the team...even if he dies. This has happened on several occaisions. Once in Zen Daijun I asked "Mr. Assassin" if he had changed his armor since he started the game to which the reply was "What's armor?". The best advice I was ever given, by someone on this forum as it happens was, unless they're under 80% health, they don't need healing. It saves so much energy and stops so much overheal.
Maleki
Wow, this thread turned in to a large gripe fest about pugs and then about monks and then about pugs again. I think that the reason that monks dont get as much respect as they did originally is that there is more to fill that staple now, in the form of pargons, e/mos and ritualists. Back before SF..people hadnt experimented as much and monks were the best heals in town and everyone knew it. Nowadays a secondary monk can sometimes do the job of a poor monk better. I think all classes deserve some love, because every class gets misunderstood and gets yelled at. monks and frontline characters get the most heat because they are important. frontlines are supposed to deal dmg. while maintaing range from agro and stay within healing. The monk can also be the one who must be johnny on the spot, and pay attention to his surroundings and that those little red bars.
In summation I think that I have had more leeroys than straight up bad monks. But I think this is due to the fact that monks usually have a backup, and monks know when it doesnt seem like the other isnt pulling weight. It is all relative. We were all noobs once, and we all still make mistakes. So we looked like a noob to someone at some point in our guild wars career. Thus the cycle goes. *EDIT* Eventually monks grow in to better bars and eventually warriors grow out of mending and healing breeze
Xeeron
Why do people disrespect monks now?
Because it is easier to spot a bad monk than a bad necro (elly,warrior, etc). When I join a PuG and I am teamed with a bad monk, I'll notice 10 seconds into the first fight, when all those healing breezes start apearing. If it is a bad necro, I might not notice at all, unless I find the time to watch him cast his skills, which I usually dont have if he is bad and things get rough for the party. - Xeeron Critical Cal
Thinking that YOU have the right answer to all these situations: Unless you have played extensivelly (the class you are Flamming) And especially if have: You should be offiring some kind of usefull information or providing an example! For the most part the vast majority of players I've encountered are only concerned with complaining about so & so, how does this make anything better?
qvtkc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhilleus
so long as you walk around displaying the idea that playing half-assed is ok, you contribute to the degredation of the gaming quality of the population. as long as you demand more of people, and screw them over as best you can when nothing is done, they may (eventually) realize the true source of the problem, and fix it, making the gaming population better as a whole.
the only perceived downside to my philosophy is that you can end up pissing off a few people that werent worth playing with anyway. is it a harsh stance? yes. but its also one aimed at improving things. If you actually believe yourself then things are very very sad. Anyway 1) PvE in this game is so easy that in the vast majority of cases you can have 1, 2 or even 3 total idiots in a team, it doesn't matter, if everyone else does their best you will still win the mission/clear out the farming area/finish the quest/whatever you are doing. 2) When I work or do sports or whatever, I expect people to be professional about it. When I play a game I expect them and myself to have fun. If the 1, 2 or 3 idiots mentioned above are friendly and can tell a good joke or put some feeling into the gameplay, then this will lead to a more rewarding experience than an unfriendly but very good player would. 3) If you see someone who is stupid or a failure, why would you beat him until he improves? Give him a tip or two instead if you are so l33t yourself. Explaining what a bad player does wrong can help him to improve, while shouting "omfg nubs stay out of maelstrom" and leaving will not improve anything. ngtv
I play as monk for a long time now. My ele,necro and warr char which i played on start are now only storage slots(although Drok run with warr bring me nice amount of money at the time...).
I started to play as a monk because my guild needed someone to level players and show them the ropes and monk was perfect choice for that task. Now I only play as a Monk. In PvE I try be as quiet as I can, stay in the back and do my job. Most of the time thats the situation. But at least once a day i get "i hate monks" or "heal, noob monk" lines and this almost every time from tank standing in AoE or not paying attention on his hexes. At that time i just leave a group. Then I get PM "Why did u leave, stupid monk?!!" etc.. which is immediately followed by Ignore. I leave not because I'm angry or insulted but because of a simple time saving. Teams with players like this are doomed and its just better to leave them then waste time. As I said this happens at least once a day so I can understand monks asking for money or having an attitude or any other unpopular behavior. One more important thing. People(other the monks) need to understand. Playing as a monk is much harder then playing any other class. There is almost no combo which u can use and wait for 5-10sec while its finished and then just repeat everything again. Number of clicks/keys which I make is 10+ times then normal tank who hits space on his target and then combos skills. Also whole party depends on number of choices monk needs to make in VERY VERY short time frame(example: u see 3 or more party members below 30% and u need to decide immediately who will be sacrificed for the good of the team. This happens at least once in 2 fights...).
Akhilleus
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Originally Posted by qvtkc
If you actually believe yourself then things are very very sad.
Anyway 1) PvE in this game is so easy that in the vast majority of cases you can have 1, 2 or even 3 total idiots in a team, it doesn't matter, if everyone else does their best you will still win the mission/clear out the farming area/finish the quest/whatever you are doing. 2) When I work or do sports or whatever, I expect people to be professional about it. When I play a game I expect them and myself to have fun. If the 1, 2 or 3 idiots mentioned above are friendly and can tell a good joke or put some feeling into the gameplay, then this will lead to a more rewarding experience than an unfriendly but very good player would. 3) If you see someone who is stupid or a failure, why would you beat him until he improves? Give him a tip or two instead if you are so l33t yourself. Explaining what a bad player does wrong can help him to improve, while shouting "omfg nubs stay out of maelstrom" and leaving will not improve anything. please, try reading my post before you respond. i clearly said that if they dont respond to suggestions on how not to launch the team into a brick wall, then you need to start taking more drastic members; ie not healing/ressing them; or, in the case of monks, have the seccond one try to take over, if possible. and since when has not sucking been equated with unfriendlyness? i also stated, that the better the group is, the more likely i am to kick back and enjoy myself. why? simple: if my group is populated with numbnuts, i'm going to be spending most my time being dedicated to trying to keep the group afloat. if i realize this isnt possible, ill resort to more drastic measures; telling people what needs to be done for us not to fail. if rational advice is still ignored, then i will start ignoring people; let them die, and let them deal with it. leaving the group is a last resort. if, however, the group wisens up and gets its act together (which does occasionally happen), then ill start to lighten up. if someone is a bad player, AND they are wasting their time chatting it up (as you soemhow think this is a good thing?) i will VERY quickly lose patience with the group. if our group is failing, but i can see that people are trying their best, i will stick with it untill the end. many times ive ended up doling out candycanes in order to keep a group together that is putting forth effort (this is usually the case when a group is populated by a coupple morons who sink the team to near death, and leave...leaving the group undermanned, but without idiots). most of the time a group in the aforementioned situation will succeed. qvtkc
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Originally Posted by Akhilleus
if someone is a bad player, AND they are wasting their time chatting it up (as you soemhow think this is a good thing?)
I play PvE with a friend, mostly. We are not even in the same guild, but still we play together most of the time. During the elite mission weekend we went to Urgoz' Warren and joined a PUG. It was the worst team I've ever been in, skillwise... I'm not superpro, but me and my friend were clearly the only players in the team who were even half decent. One of the monks was very drunk (and afk half of the time), one of the warriors kept rushing headfirst into the enemy and then demanding rez, and our ranger constantly started pulling the next group of enemies while the rest of us were rezzing fallen party members. To put it short, it was the kind of group you would abandon right away.
...needless to mention, I still laugh my ass off when I think about it. With such a group, you might be shocked at their complete lack of skill and talent, but at least you are never bored. So yes, I think it's a good thing. But no matter. Your post perfectly illustrates why monks are held in low regard by some players. Who are you to tell people what to do and what not to do? Back when I was a newbie, me and the previously mentioned friend henched the whole game. Most of the time we had no clue what we were doing, so I assume we did a lot of mistakes. Alesia is (or... should be) crap compared to any human monk. Yet she managed to keep us (warrior and elementalist) alive most of the time. And she never opened her mouth to tell us that we are doing everythig wrong, and she never ever left (except once. no, jk). Why are monks held in low regard? Because as soon as they have to actually work hard (and yes, monks do work hard, look at ngtv's post for example) they start complaining. And then they leave. The worst part is that if they stayed put and did their job instead of whining the team would probably actually make it to the end of the mission or whatever, but when a monk leaves he inevitably dooms the party. (not really - I've been in a party that finished the dragon's lair bonus after both primary monks left) In fact, monks are special in that respect. The friend I mentioned likes to play monk in sf farm teams. Most healer monks there use Word of Healing. He uses Healing Hands as elite, reasoning that with at minimum two enchantments on each person most of the time, Dwayna's Kiss is plenty of healing, so no need for WoH. Inevitably, the bonder monk will see him use HH, and in about 60% of the cases will say something like "WoH is better than HH" or "Healing Hands is noob". Now who asked the bonder monk? No one, he just felt compelled to open her mouth. When my friend explains his rationale, usually with a mathematical example, the bonder usually thinks up some insult. And yet my friend manages to keep the team alive, usually doing a better job than most monks you can find there. Monks hold the lives of the entire party in their hands. Unfortunately some monks think that that gives them some kind of right to say whatever they like, and interfere with other's gameplay. Whatever happened to shutting up and doing your job? And no. Your job is not to tell others how to play. Especially not when most of that is blaming others for your own failures. Having to sacrifice the life of one to save three others is not your failure. Not healing a player who you can heal with no ill effect on your team is your failure, even if that player "should" do whatever he does in some other manner. If you do that, how will you motivate the team taking you instead of Mhenlo?
Effigy
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Originally Posted by qvtck
"I'm dead!" "I'm dead!" "I'm dead!" "heal noob monk zomg" "lolz meteor shower" "wtf stop aggro" If I'm not doing my job, they have every right to call me on it. Just like I have every right to call them out when they do something idiotic. Expecting people to use common sense is not "interfering with other's gameplay." If they don't use common sense, they are "interfering with other's gameplay" by making everyone's job harding and risking failure for the whole group.
Rera
@qvtkc
Originally Posted by Rera
Like I said, this argument isn't going to go anywhere. Quote: But again, the fundamental difference between you and me is that you think "crappy playing is ok".
Your first paragraph is a perfect example of this difference. I would not have tolerated that group, and I would not have laughed about it. When I play with morons, I find it extremely frustrating and not the least bit fun or funny.
You continue to assert that our behavior comes from being a monk and "holding the lives of the entire party" in our hands. I maintain that this is false, because I do the same thing on any of my characters. It has nothing to do with being a monk, and everything to do with refusing to put up with rampant idiocy. People who don't like my policy are more than welcome to find another group (if I'm leading) or kick me (if they're leading). I don't see anything wrong with people taking Mhenlo, and I don't see any reason why I should persuade people to take me instead. I am more than happy doing everything with heroes and henchmen, so I have no incentive to cater to people who would rather just screw around or do their own thing. qvtkc
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Originally Posted by Effigy
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I still stand by this statement:
Having to sacrifice the life of one to save three others is not your failure.
Not healing a player who you can heal with no ill effect on your team is your failure, even if that player "should" do whatever he does in some other manner.
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Originally Posted by Rera
I would not have tolerated that group, and I would not have laughed about it. When I play with morons, I find it extremely frustrating and not the least bit fun or funny.
Ok you need to relax. It's just a game, and an easy one at that. Of course I won't like it when it really matters. If I get a party together with the explicit purpose of getting masters in Eternal Grove, I will be very annoyed at the losers who can't stay at their gate etc. But in the vast majority of cases you can have a group of people who make a whole lot of mistakes and yet come out winning, and if that happens... what have you lost? Maybe you broke a nail when you had to heal a caster who didn't kite
i can hench this game as easily as anyone else, if im playing for a PuG, its usually because while organising my hench group i see someone post "GLF 1 more monk before we leave, please join" or whatever and i thinkg to myself "why the hell not." if people dont appreciate the fact that whenever i play i try to succeed, they can feel free to kick me.
i play for fun; but for me, doing the same mission 10 times over when you ahve other things to do, just because you're partied with baboons is not fun. some of the crap people do is funny, but even if it makes me laugh the moment they do it, as a general rule, its not fun when that stupidity causes you to fail.
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exactly.|
Originally Posted by qvtck
I use that handle for one reason: people can't spell it
Akhilleus
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Originally Posted by Rera
Like I said, this argument isn't going to go anywhere. Your first paragraph is a perfect example of this difference. I would not have tolerated that group, and I would not have laughed about it. When I play with morons, I find it extremely frustrating and not the least bit fun or funny. You continue to assert that our behavior comes from being a monk and "holding the lives of the entire party" in our hands. I maintain that this is false, because I do the same thing on any of my characters. It has nothing to do with being a monk, and everything to do with refusing to put up with rampant idiocy. People who don't like my policy are more than welcome to find another group (if I'm leading) or kick me (if they're leading). I don't see anything wrong with people taking Mhenlo, and I don't see any reason why I should persuade people to take me instead. I am more than happy doing everything with heroes and henchmen, so I have no incentive to cater to people who would rather just screw around or do their own thing. |
i can hench this game as easily as anyone else, if im playing for a PuG, its usually because while organising my hench group i see someone post "GLF 1 more monk before we leave, please join" or whatever and i thinkg to myself "why the hell not." if people dont appreciate the fact that whenever i play i try to succeed, they can feel free to kick me.
i play for fun; but for me, doing the same mission 10 times over when you ahve other things to do, just because you're partied with baboons is not fun. some of the crap people do is funny, but even if it makes me laugh the moment they do it, as a general rule, its not fun when that stupidity causes you to fail.
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