Originally Posted by Mokone
QFT
the thing with healing "idiots" is that;
a) if you keep them alive, theyll keep messing up; next time might be deadly for your whole group
b) your probably wasting all energy you got on one person, resulting in the others getting slaughtered
=> your going to let all die and FAIL the mission because you kept someone alive that brought the death for others.
Hold on here. Let's recap what I posted previously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkel
If people continually RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up, as in a caster rushing straight into mobs, then let them tank until you're uncomfortable with your energy situation, which should let you heal for a whole lot longer than 10 seconds.
Clearly what you're saying is irrelevant, as you will neither let anyone die nor fail the mission if you heal them for as long as you're comfortable with your energy. This could be a limit of 40 energy for some, and 20 energy for others, and this is what makes the difference between a good and a bad monk, which it seems is what all of the above people responding to my posts fail to grasp.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mokone
mikkel, this has nothing to do with being arrogant; its for the "safety" of the group. its all nice if you want to keep those idiots alive; but its not gonna turn out well.
The main point I have been trying to make here is that it is arrogant to make decisions in advance and pre-emptively state that if the players in a group don't suit the monk, he or she is not going to heal them. That is pure arrogance. I have nothing against monks asking for people to help them help themselves when it comes to healing, but outright denying to heal people for trivialities is undeniably arrogant.
All I'm advocating is keeping the idiots alive as long as it doesn't impair your ability to heal others, and that this should be possible in most cases if you're a decent monk. People here seem to get aggressive, though, if their abilities are questioned.
18 Nov 2006 at 14:09 - 129
^to make it short; i didnt read the page before and clearly missed your main point then. i apologize - and i completely agree with you now.
18 Nov 2006 at 14:15 - 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokone
^to make it short; i didnt read the page before and clearly missed your main point then. i apologize - and i completely agree with you now.
No worries. I didn't word myself very well there, so apologies right back at you.
18 Nov 2006 at 17:43 - 131
OMG guys, why are you arguing with mikkel? He is obviously right. But it's okay, even if you keep arguing with him, he will probably still heal you. I think.
18 Nov 2006 at 20:45 - 132
my pve monk made it to the southern shiverpeak missions, i learned a good deal but parked her there... i liked monking and i'd love to get more experience in but really most players are such disrespectful assholes that i've given up on becoming a talented monk through pve practice. i heal sometimes on call for my alliance/friends when it's not for something terribly difficult...
maybe there'll be such a horrendous shortage of monks at some point that they'll be more widely respected? doubt it. now with heros... heh.
18 Nov 2006 at 22:08 - 133
from what i've found in pve is that MOST of the time the other players are very nice to me as a monk, back in prophecies if you didn't suck you were commended over and over again. The level of competant monks has since risen, and along with it the level at which sometimes monks are taken for granted. Never anything to trifle over. Just enjoy the game, and try to remember that the mesmer or ele or paragon is probably doing almost as much as you to keep the party healthy.
really, the way they treat you depends on their own skill.
if they are silly, and all run off in differant directions while you type: "ooh stop that.", they get damn mad.
if they all know what they are doing, they usually acknowledge you at the least 
monking for money is just discraceful, i like to think that we monks are above that sort of thing hehe.
i am sometimes sure that allowing one fool's dp too crawl into the negatives will benefit the party, but i'm never able to let even the lowliest sillyman die without cause. we all start somewhere.
P.S. POSTBOY! somebody said right at the beginning of this thread that silly monks spam breeze and heal party, while the awfulness of breeze cannot be disputed (and hopefully, won't be in this thread), HP is simply an amazing skill. just had to point that out
the bottom line is that monks, while they are unique in their abilitys as a class, are not special. to believe that you are special to the point that everybody should worship you to deserve one of your precious heals is just pure stupid. Everybody needs the mission, including you. Enjoy the game, and ignore the nuts that forget they are responsible for their own life, and that you are (i'm sure) doing your best.
cheers. 
18 Nov 2006 at 22:10 - 134
All I'm saying is that letting some dumb ele beat the energy out of you by tanking a bunch of mobs while casting his spells will cause group wipes. This isn't PvP where the other team will beat the energy out of you - this is PvE where if you're getting beat up, it's your fault.
The differences between eles and rangers isn't 10 AL, at least when talking about PUGs. I mean clearly you can build an ele with Kinetic + Armor of Earth and tank melee guys just fine. The difference, and this is obvious if you've spent a lot of time in PUGs, is that your common Ranger PUG doesn't do a ton of damage (his attributes are terrible and he has a level 15 pet that's going to die a lot) but he doesn't take a bunch either. He doesn't draw aggro, and if he does he almost certainly has Troll Unguent (which he will overuse, whatever) and probably has an evasion stance as well. Again not all Rangers are like this, but from grouping with Rangers a lot that is what they feel like. They're just kinda there, they don't kill a lot or die a lot and otherwise act as decent PUG filler.
Your typical Elementalist? Well, let's start with the obvious - there are a *ton* of them with 360-380 hit points and 60 armor. You can recognize them as a non-Monk because they like to control-click their energy bar. As a Monk you notice these guys very quickly because 1) They are glowing aggro beacons and 2) They get absolutely rocked as soon as they get said aggro. They are very unlikely to bring any sort of self-preservation as well. After all, they are *nukers*, they just nuke, whatever that means. What it means to me is that they're going to stand there getting punched in the face over and over again while casting long cast time spells until I am dry of energy, at which point I get yelled at for being a noob Monk.
The reason this is talked about is because the terrible Elementalist that rocks your Monks is only slightly less common than the rambo W/Mo that aggros way too much or runs off and dies in the middle of nowhere. The difference being, as a Monk, that when a Warrior is a dumbass and commits ritual suicide like that, everyone recognizes that he's a dumbass. When an Elementalist blows up a team, the bad Monks waste all their energy on him and then they wipe, and a bad PUG has no idea what happened. Often enough this leads to a rousing rendition of "Blame the Monk!", and that leads to rage on Monk forums.
Hence: if you are a squishy, and particularly if you are more squishy than usually, and you decide to tank massive amounts of damage, you are going to DIE, and I am going to laugh at you for it, because you are BAD. Hell if I'm going to let a party wipe because BAD PLAYERS devour all the team resources and make the players who will actually complete the mission lose.
Peace,
-CxE
18 Nov 2006 at 22:55 - 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkel
Hey, that's great. Alternatively you could just tell the group that you aren't skilled enough to keep people taking disproportional amounts of damage alive, and that you're too apathetic about your shortcomings to even try. If you need to recharge after every single battle in order to heal a group properly, you're doing something wrong.
If people continually RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up, as in a caster rushing straight into mobs, then let them tank until you're uncomfortable with your energy situation, which should let you heal for a whole lot longer than 10 seconds. The difference between a ranger and a caster is 10AL. It is -not- impossible to keep them alive.
You're not a good monk if you can't make decisions about who, what and when to heal on the go. Adaptation is the most important thing for a monk to be able to do.
My good friend, like pointed out before rangers and eles have massive diffirences. Rangers have 100AL against elemental, wich is the most in the game and they have evasive stances. In your reasoning the diffirence between an assasin and a warrior is also just 10AL, though when I tried to be a main tank with my sin yesterday I horribly failed....
And I don't know what enemies you are fighting but on my version of guildwars elementalists and assasins get 50%-75% of their HP knocked off every 2 seconds when they try to tank. Let's do some maths. 50%-70% of their HP is let's say 300hp every 2 seconds. With 16 healing prayers and 10 divine favor Orison heals for 100, WoH for 200, WoC ( with condition ) for 150 and Dwayna's kiss for 150 as well. Now in order to keep my tanking buddy who actually can't tank alive I need to constantly spam those.
This means 2 things:
- 4 energy lost per second ( 1 regen, -5 spell casting )
- I cannot heal anyone else since every second of the fight I am casting a heal on the tanker.
Now let's say that I pre-casted something usefull like healing seed on the main tank or I used holy haste on myself so I can catch spikes. With my 59 energy this will mean that I have 50 energy when we make contact. Now at this moment I can keep the tanker who can't tank alive for a whole 12 seconds wich wastes my entire energy bar. And during those 12 seconds I am unable to heal anyone else since all my heals will be constantly recharging and i will be constantly casting them.
So instead of prolonging his life by 12 seconds, wich with the average high lvl battle lasting, say 30 seconds and for bosses 60 seconds is 2/5 of a normal battle and 1/5 of a boss battle. I prefer to make sure the rest of that 3/5 or 4/5 is also filled with healing. I am ofcourse perfectly fine with doing this for 3-4 seconds, but this already costs me 25% of my energy bar. If they don't run away to ditch agro after that they die. Very simple. They're fault, not mine. Not my lack of skill, their lack of skill.
Now you say I am a crap monk because I actually need to rest a bit between fights. So I assume that either:
- You are such an uber 1337 pro monk that people never ever, even if they pull 3 groups, die with you healing them
- You don't carry a resurrection skill at all or use something like resurrect, resurrection chant or restore life.
Now personally I prefer to use rebirth for it's teleportation effect. Now seeing as you obviously know so much about monking I assume that you know the uses of rebirth and that it drains all your energy. Simple things like this or for example long boss fights drain my energy totally. For this I want my team to just ask for a simple ready before they do the next big pull. Most of the time I immediatly give this ready, but sometimes as I described above I simply do not have the energy.
Lastly you say that I can not make decissions about who, what and when to heal. Last time I checked me saying that I won't heal tanking eles, necro's and sins or rushing idiots is pretty much taking a decission on who, what and when to heal. And ofcourse, with my pre-set statements I am unable to adapt to the battlefield situation. But please, give me a single battlefield situation in wich I will not loose all my energy healing a tanking ele, sin or necro loosing 50%-75% of his health every 2 secs for more then 15 seconds? Give me a single situation in wich standing in the middle of a high level mob to heal a rushing paladin who is 2 groups away will not get me in life threatening danger?
And I can hear you saying: Use prot spirit you noob!. Personally I find this skill to be an absolute waste in PvE PuGs. With a PuG monsters are constantly switching agro and are usually beating on atleast 3 diffirent persons. Using prot spirit I would have to waste 10 energy every time a mob switched agro only to find that it switched agro again 3 seconds later. Doing that will seriously get my energy drained. For PuGs you want healing, not damage prevention. In PuGs you are unable to know where the next blow will land because you simply do not know what your teammates will do. Healing allows you to directly respond to damage, Protection allows you to prevent damage if you know where it will be. Now for organised guild groups and all that kind of thing protection is great! You know the builds of your team, you know their playstyles so you know what to expect. In PuGs you simply don't. That ele may have packed defensive skills in wich case damage on him will never go above 60 to trigger spirit bond, but he may not as well in wich case he will need spirit bond, who knows in a PuG. That enemy ranger running closer is obviously going to attack a caster, but who? In an organised group you will know that for example your ele has 2 sup runes so will obviously be targeted by monster AI since he doesn't have a lot of HP. So prot spirit it is! In a PuG that ele might have all minor runes and max HP armor while the mesmer next to you has 2 sup runes. It may also be the other way around. What do you do? No place for protection in a PuG. The damage simply is too unpredictable.
But then again, maybe I just am a crappy monk. Maybe all of the above is just stupid bullshit and I'm missing something vital for my monking...... Please enlighten me if I do.
18 Nov 2006 at 23:01 - 136
I think hitting level 20 was the first point when the monk abuse started showing up for me. Just randomly, with people saying things before missions even started that demonstrated that they had no respect for you. The problem isn't newb players, but actually the segments of the population who have played through these types of games several times and don't grown as a player/person from day one. Unfortunate, but predictable, course of events leading up to a bunch of antagonizers posting in these forums. Incoming massive post because I don't like wasting my time going tit for tat with replies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkel
Hey, that's great. Alternatively you could just tell the group that you aren't skilled enough to keep people taking disproportional amounts of damage alive, and that you're too apathetic about your shortcomings to even try. If you need to recharge after every single battle in order to heal a group properly, you're doing something wrong.
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Biggest thing about the monk/party relationship is the need for control on both sides. The group needs the monk to keep them alive, and the monk needs people not to take tons of damage and to kill stuff. Any type of person who has problems with submitting to another authority is going to be hurting the group. This relationship is assumed (by both sides, not just one) when you enter a group. I frequently see people try to intimidate monks with "there's 6 of us, 2 of you". It only takes about 2/6 good offensive players, but both defenders have to be solid. So the blame falls on the shoulders of a disrespected minority (2 guys taking care of 6 defenseless others) So if you point fingers at monks, they can justifiably point fingers back despite the fact that your voice will intrude more. Similar to the W/Mo earning the blame for non-monk failures.
Will people never figure out enough ways to work the AI so that damage is being limited? (I don't notice AI changes because it's all chaos to me when I'm healing.) Have we not all learned about pulling/watching patrols? How about those endless struggles where pathetic target selection leads to 5-10 minute struggles? And seriously, bosses can three shot kill enough players to the point that a player with high armor/prots is the guy who should be designated as a tank. Its not just +10 armor. Its +10 armor vs a chain of hits by multiple mobs, with critical hits contributing to spike damage. Less spike reaction time when you consider PvE characters are overloading on superior runes, and love being saved with <10 health on their bars so they can complain about it.
Monks need for players to understand how to play a class most effectively, and to make their jobs feasible. More groups fail missions because of the abilities that poor players are requiring their monks to have. If you want to tank with an ele and wield fiery dragon swords in the RoF, then you better know that you're the fool in that group. Or run with henches and spare us from the rest of this junk. Monk = other player, not your personal subordinate. Being able to pull mobs as a monk and lure them to henches is already a godsend.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mokone
sorry but, ive played my monk through all campaigns; you dont need to wait for regen, you just run in the next group, that should give you enough time to regen if you need it.
You assume your group is competent enough to take down one group at a time. Hey, even two isn't that bad. But its 2-3 groups with a troublesome makeup (healers, aoe knockdown, heavy degen w/ interrupts, bosses, pop-up/patrol/adds coming up on caster backline) that absolutely screw over monks more than anything. This "rule" you've made up will only further justify the poor behavior of non-monks. I don't care for these types of generalizations if I haven't already made that clear.
Edit: Last 3 posts beat me to it, pretty much.
19 Nov 2006 at 00:09 - 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Fuhon
You assume your group is competent enough to take down one group at a time. Hey, even two isn't that bad. But its 2-3 groups with a troublesome makeup (healers, aoe knockdown, heavy degen w/ interrupts, bosses, pop-up/patrol/adds coming up on caster backline) that absolutely screw over monks more than anything. This "rule" you've made up will only further justify the poor behavior of non-monks. I don't care for these types of generalizations if I haven't already made that clear.
learn patrols, learn how to pull -> wont happen
as i said, i never had the problem, so people that have those problems are obviously doing something wrong. 
19 Nov 2006 at 01:03 - 138
I'm not going to quote all of this nonsense, because most of it is completely irrelevant to what I've been saying.
There is no sense in giving hopelessly inflated statistics in order to prove a point that doesn't exist. There is no point in telling me that my views are flawed because healing idiots will wipe your team. I already stated quite clearly that I'm suggesting that people heal idiots for as long as they are -comfortable-, instead of determining in advance who gets healed and who doesn't, as that is incredibly arrogant, and the topic of the thread deals in most part about monk attitudes.
There is no sense in stating the obvious as in you need recharge after using Rebirth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkel
If you need to recharge after every single battle in order to heal a group properly, you're doing something wrong.
If you're defending this by condescendingly explaining how Rebirth works, as if it's an obvious and rapidly recurring source of energy depletion, I'm going to assume that you're saying that you have to Rebirth party members after every fight, and then I'm still going to be of the opinion that you must be doing something wrong, if this is the case.
There is no need to hear voices. I haven't included Protective Spirit in any regularly used PvE build ever. If you really want to make a point, base it on what you actually know. It's easy to make up situations where your opinions are superior. It's harder to actually find these situations.
My point is still that if you state before or at the start of a mission or quest exactly who you're going to heal and when you're going to heal them, you're arrogantly commandeering a party and expecting 7 other people to do exactly what you want. Nothing is determined in advance, and the dynamic nature of the game means that you have every chance to actually use your head in battle and help people instead of commanding them.
19 Nov 2006 at 01:30 - 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkel
I haven't included Protective Spirit in any regularly used PvE build ever.
I LOL'd.
Monks, apparently it's incredibly arrogant to expect basic competence from your team.
19 Nov 2006 at 01:54 - 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
I LOL'd.
Monks, apparently it's incredibly arrogant to expect basic competence from your team.
Rera, could you please cut the noise? It's evident that you have nothing to add to the thread, and that you are in fact not even reading my posts. If you have nothing better to do than try to save face by snide comments that in full context really just make you look inept, please save people the trouble of having to scroll past your posts.
19 Nov 2006 at 02:03 - 141
If you think it's just noise, feel free not to respond.
The irony is that I am reading your posts, which is why I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.
But fine, I'll play your game. Explain to me why I should be obligated to heal an incompetent player, and we'll go from there.
19 Nov 2006 at 02:17 - 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
If you think it's just noise, feel free not to respond.
The irony is that I am reading your posts, which is why I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.
But fine, I'll play your game. Explain to me why I should be obligated to heal an incompetent player, and we'll go from there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkel
I have nothing against monks asking for people to help them help themselves when it comes to healing, but outright denying to heal people for trivialities is undeniably arrogant.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rera
Monks, apparently it's incredibly arrogant to expect basic competence from your team.
.. evidently.
If I really need to explain to you why I think it's appropriate to heal the lesser experienced players in a thread dealing with the image of monks to other players, I'm afraid that you're beyond what I have patience for.
19 Nov 2006 at 02:38 - 143
Would it make me a bad person if I said I didn't care how "lesser experienced players" perceive monks? The fact that a "lesser experienced player" finds it arrogant that I refuse to heal him doesn't actually make the behavior arrogant.
You use the word 'trivialities' and apply it to situations like over-aggro and eles tanking damage for extended periods. I don't find these situations trivial at all. It's downright stupidity, and that's something no one should have to put up with, no matter what class you are.
19 Nov 2006 at 02:52 - 144
A little over-aggro is mostly a triviality in the places where you would encounter these inexperirenced players. It's -undeniably- arrogant for a monk to expect everyone to comply with his or her wishes. Arrogant behaviour is telling people in advance that if they make even the slightest mistakes, they won't be healed. Not healing people because they're a little inexperienced isn't exactly selfless. Don't take the two out of context to make an invalid point. They're applied where they are for a reason.
19 Nov 2006 at 03:16 - 145
We're not exactly asking for top-10 guild performance here. I want my warriors to not pull 3 groups at once, and I want my backline to kite damage intelligently. Is this unreasonable? If someone can't even manage that then I honestly don't think they're worth keeping alive.
An interesting part here is this statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkel
Arrogant behaviour is telling people in advance that if they make even the slightest mistakes, they won't be healed.
If I tell you in advance that I expect casters to kite damage, not stand in maelstroms, etc. then why would you go ahead and do it? Inexperienced players have no excuses if they're being told beforehand what not to do. If you told someone to get out of the chaos storm and they just stood there, wouldn't you be pissed off? Would you heal them? You might. I wouldn't.
And for the record, I don't usually play GW to help people, which you seem to think monks should be doing. If a group is stupid to the point that it's stressing me out, I'm going to leave some people face down.
19 Nov 2006 at 08:35 - 146
Mikkel,
You say my statistics in how much healing clothies need are off. Now please, go do the Raisu Palace mission and try tanking 3-4 of those lvl 28 enemies there. Using no protective enchants or any form of self defense, just healing. I can gaurantee you that your energy will be depleted healing yourself in less then 15 seconds ( using only pure healing spells ) if you even manage to outheal all that damage for so long. Or try tanking 2 lvl 28 offensive bosses ( Offensive means guys like warriors, assasins, dervish, elementalists and rangers mostly. ) at the same time, also works great in proving my point.
You say that I have to rez using rebirth every single time, now my post clearly states that most of the time I immediatly say that I'm ready. This means that I actually didn't have to rebirth anyone and that I'm above 40 energy at the end of the battle. Now read that 'most of the time', that means that say 75% of all high lvl battles I am immediatly ready for another one. Yet sometimes ( read that sometimes a few more times ) I have to rebirth, had to do LOTS of healing in the battle or I was for example facing a mesmer/necro with E-denial ( Arcane Lanquor or however that exhaustion causing skill is called that the mesmers in Raisu Palace use. Or Wither wich some Titan bosses use. ) In these situations I do need a break to get my energy back. Just for clarity these situations do NOT happen after every fight.
And what is arrogant about telling my party what they can expect? They're not forced to follow my rules, but if they don't atleast try to then I won't be the one healing them. They're free to leave the party and find a monk who does waste his energy healing every single random idiot. They're free to depend purely on the second monk to heal them if they behave like extreme morrons. I'm merely telling them what they can expect from me, and it works great.
And surely someone as smart as you must understand that I am in fact not a robot using these rules like a computer would and following them blindly. It must be evident that I am in fact a human being and thus will not follow those rules blindly.
Now I do hope that you give reading this post a bit more time then my previous one, but maybe it's not worth reading the posts of a silly arogant monk.
19 Nov 2006 at 08:54 - 147
Quote:
We're not exactly asking for top-10 guild performance here. I want my warriors to not pull 3 groups at once, and I want my backline to kite damage intelligently. Is this unreasonable? If someone can't even manage that then I honestly don't think they're worth keeping alive.
I agree with the first part (performance, pulling and kiting), the second part depends on the situation. It's possible to do a wrong pull (our group pulled 2 monks and a monk boss in one of the Crystal Desert missions yesterday).
But it is something else when this happens the entire mission and by one person.
For casters, if they get most of the damage, I'll heal, even when they are in AoE spells.
But I will tell them that standing there when getting hit (and just a few steps would have prevented that) is not very smart.
If the whole group takes damage, the caster will be out of luck (or at the bottom of my list).
That has more to do with team survival and reaching goals than the individual player that screws up.
That's what being a monk is about, in my opinion.
Enable a group to reach their goal (complete mission/bonus, cap skills, quests or just win). And the way a monk does that (most of the time) is by supporting the team to stay alive.
Kiting and aggro control are as much part of that as the healing part.
19 Nov 2006 at 12:54 - 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rera
If I tell you in advance that I expect casters to kite damage, not stand in maelstroms, etc. then why would you go ahead and do it? Inexperienced players have no excuses if they're being told beforehand what not to do. If you told someone to get out of the chaos storm and they just stood there, wouldn't you be pissed off? Would you heal them? You might. I wouldn't.
Here we are, in a thread about the image of monks, talking about cutting inexperienced players some slack, and you post something like that. Being inexperienced means not knowing what the hell a Chaos Storm is, and not knowing where and how to kite. I'm sorry. I've tried explaining this to you, but you're apparently having trouble seeing the world from anything other than your perspective. If you're going to be "pissed off" at someone who doesn't know any better, instead of working to give the poor guy a chance, then it's your choice.
I don't care what kind of justification either of you two have for healing like you do, and no amount of backpedalling, inflated statistics or combination of the two is going to make it any more relevant. If you're saying that commandeering a group and demanding that 7 other people obey you, and your style of monking, instead of adapting to it, you're going to seem arrogant to everyone else, because it is arrogant. If people are dying, you have every right to give them tips on what to do and what not to do, and if they still don't, you have every right to blame one party member for the defeat. This could be helpful to other players. Facing someone telling them how to play a game they're playing to have fun is not.
If the only way you know how to play a monk is demanding things of other people and denying a service that the entire group depends on if they don't comply, you're exactly what the OT is complaining about, and I don't care how you justify it, 'cause I know from experience from myself and many, many others that it simply isn't necessary in order to complete a mission.
I can see however that people like you who resort to continued personal insults in a conversation about etiquette are more or less lost already.
Due to the high probability that either one of you are going to post yet another irrelevant reply that I really cannot be bothered to humour with a reply, I'm going to leave it here. Have fun doing things your way.
19 Nov 2006 at 22:33 - 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkel
cutting inexperienced players some slack
Cutting them slack means telling them beforehand. If they were experienced I would expect them to do it without being told.
'Commandeering' a group and demanding competence is hardly arrogant. It isn't a matter of conforming to any 'style of monking', it's a matter of being an intelligent human being instead of a button-mashing moron. There isn't a 'style of monking' that makes it okay for people to do stupid things. There's too much tolerance for people who won't use their brains, and I for one am not going to contribute to that trend.
19 Nov 2006 at 22:49 - 150
If you cut some inexperienced players slack, they'll keep doing the same thing they did before, ignoring your advice.
24 Nov 2006 at 06:49 - 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pocky Alchemist
Silly Sins. Trix are for kids. ^_^
I almost laughed myself out of my chair xD
And to stay on topic, I hate it when Warriors/Assins/Dervs overextend... Usually the Warrior runs through all the monsters to get to one target and ends up aggroing every group near it instead of letting the ranger "pull". Then we have 20+ lvl 24ish monsters beating on everyone while im trying to heal. Someone dies and ZOMG its all the monks fault, she needs a new build, she needs to learn how to play, she is a newb!
Honestly im pretty tired of it :/ Sure Monk is my favorite class and fun to play, but the bad is starting to overpower the good D:
24 Nov 2006 at 08:04 - 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeroxC
because they are short in number and the ones that are available are so arrogant that they ask for payment to join your party........
1k each the last guy wanted for him to join our FoW farming party. Dont worry he didnt get it.
So, so so true....Ive met monks who wont discuss builds because they think i will steal it  I mean I just need to know if hes boon prot, full heal, if hes got condition remove etc. And i had an arguement about builds with another monk (in a mission) I got a green and she left me dead so she could get the green! And I hate it when 55s think they are invincible and join you not telling you, and they run up doing their thing. #1 we arent getting healed, #2 he cant get enough energy, 1 hit and hes dead and complaining that he should have got the entire mob. (as if he didnt see the 2 warriors in our party)
24 Nov 2006 at 11:13 - 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Oranos
If you cut some inexperienced players slack, they'll keep doing the same thing they did before, ignoring your advice.
Pffft, People that can't deal with the pressure caused by inexperienced players in Pve (ffs)
are what I call a failure at monking. If they are really that good they don't even have to play with bad pugs in the first place, why bother? The fact that they're put up with noobs means every single half decent group boots them cos he lets them die :P
Bottom line: if u join a group, no matter how bad, give it all you got or you will only be a burden. My experienced with noobs is that they mostly give it all they got as well (They are new to the game and therefore very enthusiastic), and that very well counts for something.
I did Abbadon's Mouth with my monk with a group swarming with noobs, but I managed to pull them through. I gave them some advice every now and then and at least they tried to work as a team.
Instead of starting to bitch on beforehand its much more clever to give them advice AFTER something went wrong anyway, they will be much more willingly to take your advice because they have seen your advice proven right with their own eyes.
Arrogant prick monks should shut the hell up and try some PvP monking if they believe they are THAT good. Thats mostly where they run out of energy after 5 hits because their skill bar is packed with noobish 10e heals and no e-management. being a monk alone, albeit a very crappy one, just gives them the self-proclaimed right to bitch at people. Be a noob and be modest about it: NO PROBLEM, learn how to play and everything will worrk out in the end(modest people tend to be quick learners). Be a noob and be elitist: take henchies and leave ppl that want to have good fun alone!
24 Nov 2006 at 18:11 - 154
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Originally Posted by Lord Oranos
If you cut some inexperienced players slack, they'll keep doing the same thing they did before, ignoring your advice.
omg thats the dumbest and arogant thing i've ever heared  . Whappend to if u practise ull get beter? Now its u do what i say or u suck ? Giving advice is fine, but letting people find things out for themselfs is from what they really learn. I hate people, especially in HA, who want u exactly to play the build they want (excluded such things like spirit requests, taking mantra of frost since the party is gonna bring winter,...). It really arogant if eg a warrior tells the monk what skills to bring and what not to bring.
25 Nov 2006 at 00:24 - 155
Why are you people bringing this up again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sertu
I hate people, especially in HA, who want u exactly to play the build they want (excluded such things like spirit requests, taking mantra of frost since the party is gonna bring winter,...). It really arogant if eg a warrior tells the monk what skills to bring and what not to bring.
This is probably one of the stupidest complaints I've seen all day. Teams have builds, and you will be expected to follow them. Don't like it, don't join. It's that simple.
25 Nov 2006 at 00:38 - 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sertu
I hate people, especially in HA, who want u exactly to play the build they want (excluded such things like spirit requests, taking mantra of frost since the party is gonna bring winter,...). It really arogant if eg a warrior tells the monk what skills to bring and what not to bring.
Why is that? If you're the leader and you see Healing Breeze on a Monk bar, are you going to tell him to drop that for a decent skill?
If you're that defensive about your skill bar, I'm afraid team-play isn't for you.
25 Nov 2006 at 02:26 - 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by random.name
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Firstly, the difference between a ranger a ele is not just 10 AL. Rangers have this little thing called armor vs elements. They also a few skills that allow them to dodge attacks etc. Im sure you know that, and you are trying to make a different point that escapes all the rest of us?
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A good elementalist will be in the back with the rangers, and will kite like mad when they see signs of aggro. Armor doesn't matter too much, when a lot of it is armor ignoring. If worse comes to worse, the ranger does have the elemental advantage. I really don't think a ranger should have more than 1 "survival" stance on their bar, and that's maybe too much. (PvE)
Quote:
Secondly, when you say that you dont have to regen energy between battles, and the rest of us must be doing something wrong, are you referring to the start of the various chapters? If that is the case, then yeah, if you are level 20 playing around in ascalon I agree that you dont need to regen energy. We, who play the endstage missions of the game do not have that luxury you see. We have to keep 7 other people alive, and well, I dont think I need to explain the maths to you...
Energy management.
Quote:
Lastly I wish to state for the record that I doubt very much that you have played a monk later in the game. You sound too much like that irritating assassin/dervish we get in PUG's that c.............e healed, and at the end of the day its just easier doing the mission without him.
So yeah, we are all in awe of your awesome skills, and we all wish we could be as leet as you!
This sounds like a personal attack. Seriously, take energy management and keep aware of the battle. You'll get better.
I won't heal people if they are clearly:
a. Uninfused in an area with Mursaat attacks
b. Have beginner armor in a high level area (level 20+ monsters)
c. Have no clue how aggro works and don't mind attracting all the monsters in the area
I do agree about the "idiots" thing. A lot of times it's just 1 person that messes things up for your whole group, but .. well most of the time I do heal them anyways. I try to get them to see how they could do things better, but it's about a 50/50% chance they'll listen. I don't leave anyone dead on the ground though, unless I'm dead too. That's just mean isn't it?
27 Nov 2006 at 15:07 - 158
If I still have 15 energy or more ill heal every moron in range, if it sinks below 15 I have to start making choices and that's the moment the moron dies. Not my problem if he/she plays like horsecrap when I tried all I could...
27 Nov 2006 at 18:44 - 159
If you joined the group, and you were invited or joined under the pretense of being a healer or protector, you should perform that duty without question.
If you are not willing to do so, you should not join in the first place.
You take the group as it comes. If it is not to your liking in skill-level, you should not have joined.
They invited you, joined you, or let you in on an assumption that you would do your job. Whether or not they do their job to the level you feel is proper is not a proper condition upon which to base your own performance. It is a factor you have a right to use in joining, staying, or leaving. But it is unethical for you to skimp on your duties once you have accepted the position.
27 Nov 2006 at 21:57 - 160
This discussion has pretty much been beaten into the ground, but I'll throw in a few more comments.
First of all, you can't always be sure of a group's "skill-level" before you join. The W/Mo is not going to come right out and tell you, "Yes, I like to aggro 3 groups at a time and overextend for no good reason." If and when you learn this information (during the mission), you have to respond accordingly. I'm not advocating elitism or newbie-bashing, but you can't let one ignorant player drag the whole group down by wasting all your energy needlessly and causing a wipe. When someone goes off the deep end and brings down the wrath of all the mobs in the zone on their head, that's their own fault. If you proceed to foolishly waste all your resources on that person, you too are at fault. Better to let them collect their 15% DP and reflect on their mistake rather than making an additional mistake yourself.
You say that when you join a group, you are expcted to do your job. I won't dispute this. However, when you join a group it's generally assumed that the other players will also do their respective jobs. Overextending and overaggroing are not part of anybody's job. When someone decides to make it their job, it's your job to respond accordingly. Monks, contrary to popular belief, do not have unlimited resources with which to heal and protect a team. Monking is a lot more than just mashing buttons--it's about decision-making. When your resources are stretched thin, you have to make hard and fast decisions about who gets healed/protted and who doesn't. In order to make that decision prudently, you have to consider how your resources will be best invested. I can tell you right now that they would not be best invested in a player who is drawing an inordinate amount of fire to themself and the rest of the team. Instead, it's best to spend your resources on players who are trying to limit the amount of damage they are taking, by kiting and other strategies. This will allow you to keep a greater number of players alive for a longer period of time than if you just tried to heal one clueless and/or suicidal newbie. If the rest of the group survives, you can always res the newbie and give him a few pointers on how to avoid earning another 15% DP.
Again, this is not about elitism. It's about utilitarianism--providing the greatest good to the greatest number. Just because one player can attract the most damage to himself doesn't mean he deserves more of your resources than the other six.
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