Okai, the first time I tried to type this up IE random refreshed the page and deleted everything, so this'll be a brief version.
1. The skills of a paragon are designed with extreme environments in mind, ie. where an entire team is built around them, making alot -most- of them useless in PvE.
2. Only one other class has skills that really synergise with a paragon, warrior (and one useless ritualist skill, woot). This is a problem because we have a very limited number of skills on the base class itself anyway. :/
3. Due to the above two points, there are 2-3 -good- builds to use in PvE, with minor variations. Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!", Aggressive refrain. You will always see at least 1 of these, if not all 3.
4. All the armour looks the damn same, and terribly girly with the exception of Vabbian, but that's a different matter.
Onto the skills.
COMMAND
Very Disappointed with Paragons
Keilious Ahruhk
"Brace Yourself!"
Might be used in GvG, otherwise, too conditional, knockdown is rare in Nightfall.
"Can't Touch This!"
Okay, made specifically due to the complaints at the time about Touch rangers, lets face it, pointless after the nerf.
"Fall Back!"
Great skill in GvG, useless in PvE without a full human team.
"Find Their Weakness!"
No real complaints here, I wouldn't personally use it.
"Go For the Eyes!"
Very good skill.
"Help Me!"
Uuuh... I can't think of any reason to bring this. Ever.
"Incoming!" {E}
Good elite, no complaints.
"Make Haste!"
Pretty useful in PvP, especially GvG I suppose, pointless in PvE.
"Never Give Up!", "Never Surrender!"
Two good skills, but you ideally never want to be using them anyway, they're also a tad too conditional to consume up a chunk of your skillbar, IMO anyway.
"Stand Your Ground!"
A worthwhile skill.
"We Shall Return!"
Another skill which you don't want to have to use. :/
Anthem of Envy
Not particularly bad, not really good either, not much good with heroes/henchies, I don't personally use it.
Anthem of Guidance {E}
Err... Blocking and evading is no problem in PvE really. Has its uses in PvP.
Bladeturn Refrain
Like most echos, pretty good.
Crippling Anthem {E}
Would be great, if I needed to stop enemies from moving in PvE, which I don't, because they just rock up to you and wail on you till they're dead. The kiting AI is pathetic anyway.
Godspeed.
Might be of some use, its like charge... except useless outside of combat since you won't really have enchantments on everyone. O.o
Song of Concentration
Seems pretty useless even in PvP! Only purpose I see for it is spiking. -_-;;
LEADERSHIP
"Lead the way!"
Good for GvG/HA I suppose, nonsense in PvE.
"Make your time!"
Usable, fast-trigger WY! or GftE!
"They're on Fire!"
Quite good.
Aggressive refrain
Unless you've got 0 in spear mastery, this should be on your skillbar. :P
Angel Bond {E}
Hrm... Its an odd skill... could result in some interesting things with some strange combinations with other party members.
Angelic Protection
Worthless in PvE, and I've never heard of it being used in PvP, yet anyway.
Anthem of Flame
Set enemies on fire every 10 seconds? How can I lose?
Anthem of Fury {E}
Its okai, I suppose, if you build a good part of your team around adrenalin, otherwise, into GvG this goes... maybe.
Awe
I could see this kinda sorta working in RA or TA... No point in PvE
Blazing Finale
Brilliant skill, 'nuff said.
Burning Refrain
Why you would use this over the above skill I'll never know.
Defensive Anthem {E}
Wow! An elite version of Aegis! I can see how the inability to remove it might seem attractive, but in PvE that feature's fairly useless. And to be frank, Ward/Melee. gg.
Enduring Harmony
Yay! Extend shouts and chants! I can see a whole lot of purpose to that. >.>
Focused Anger
Uuuh... Standard fare elite, not much to say, other than "usable"
Glowing Signet
Why would a paragon suddenly need 13+ energy when he's got that high a score in leadership, I'll never know.
Hexbreaker Aria
Takes forever to charge, and is of limited use in PvE where the biggest hex problem is anti-adrenlin and anti-shout hexes against you anyway.
Leader's Comfort
Reasonable for the first couple of hours of the game, until paragons stop taking damage.
Natural Temper
Usable, I don't touch it personally.
Signet of Return
Another ressurection skill, replace res sig with it if you so choose. Or you could use Sunspear rebirth signet.
Soldier's Fury
I approve of this one, lots of fun.
MOTIVATION
"Its Just a Flesh Wound." {E}
Er, conditions aren't such a nightmare in PvE, use Cautery Sig if you must.
"The Power is Yours!" {E}
No. Just... no.
Aria of Restoration
Horray for minor healing! Its quite usable in PvE and PvP, anyway.
Aria of Zeal
This one I like, useful.
Ballad of Restoration
See Aria of Restoration.
Chorus of Restoration
Sweet! If I build my party around this skill it might work!
Energizing Chorus
See above.
Energizing Finale
Very nice skill indeed!
Finale of Restoration
Angry, angry healing power.
Leader's Zeal
Only nearby, and why would you need energy anyway? O.o
Lyric of Zeal/Lyric of Purification
Signets. Another works-if-you-build-your-team-around-it skill.
Mending Refrain
Very popular, for obvious reasons.
Purifying finale
No point to this really, when are you going to be condition spammed enough in PvE to need this?
Signet of Synergy
Eh, used it in RA during the preview, haven't touched it since, but its usable... I guess.
Song of Power
I suppose you COULD use it if you had TS/Vent up and a party of human players... Or you could be playing PvP if you've gone to that trouble. >.>
Song of Purification
In PvP, very nice, in PvE, a bit below average really.
Zealous Anthem
No complaints here.
SPEAR MASTERY
Barbed Spear
Standard fare.
Blazing Spear
Nice, but somewhat redundant if you have Anthem of Flame or Blazing Finale, which you pretty much always do, I've found.
Cruel Spear
Not a bad elite, ranged eviserate after all. I've always found spear damage lacking overall though.
Disrupting Throw
Like all the other disrupting skills, usable.
Harrier's Toss
Unfortunately enemies don't keep moving very much in PvE.
Merciless Spear
Deep wound, finishing move, might be usable, if you're lucky
Mighty Throw
Uuuh, I wouldn't use it, personally, since it interrupts your adrenalin flow, but I suppose you could...
Slayer's Spear
Deep wound again, yay.
Spear of Lightning
Good skill, no complaints
Stunning Strike
Nothing stays alive long enough for this to matter
Swift Javelin
Have a bitter hate of lightning? Pack this, no real complaints.
Unblockable Throw
Its Mighty Throw, costs 5 more adrenalin, but can't be blocked! What a deal.
Vicious Attack
Deep wound. Again.
Wearying Spear
It boggles the mind. Are you expected to use this then have your monk mend cond. you then use it again, rinse and repeat? That's what I've seen being done, and it seems pretty stupid.
Wild Throw
So its something to stop the enemy from blocking your adrenalin flow, which costs adrenalin? Sweet!
Cautery Signet
Great considering the ammount of disease floating around NF
Remedy Signet
Never used it, for obvious reasons.
Signet of Aggression
I could see that you might take this to keep up adrenlin between combat, but really...
So to wrap up, I really wanted to like the paragon, since I enjoyed it so much during during the PvP preview event, but in the end, it'll just be a class that I'll use only in GvG, because the PvE aspects of this class are so constrained in what you can do.
The worst part of all this really, is that the flaw lies in how the skills work in most cases, rather than the stats themselves, so Anet can't really fix the problem.
Am I looking at this wrong or something? Is it actually feasible to use P/A? P/N? etc etc?
Do these many skills I see as so very pointless actually have a use in PvE?
Barbed Spear
Standard fare.
Blazing Spear
Nice, but somewhat redundant if you have Anthem of Flame or Blazing Finale, which you pretty much always do, I've found.
Cruel Spear
Not a bad elite, ranged eviserate after all. I've always found spear damage lacking overall though.
Disrupting Throw
Like all the other disrupting skills, usable.
Harrier's Toss
Unfortunately enemies don't keep moving very much in PvE.
Merciless Spear
Deep wound, finishing move, might be usable, if you're lucky
Mighty Throw
Uuuh, I wouldn't use it, personally, since it interrupts your adrenalin flow, but I suppose you could...
Slayer's Spear
Deep wound again, yay.
Spear of Lightning
Good skill, no complaints
Stunning Strike
Nothing stays alive long enough for this to matter
Swift Javelin
Have a bitter hate of lightning? Pack this, no real complaints.
Unblockable Throw
Its Mighty Throw, costs 5 more adrenalin, but can't be blocked! What a deal.
Vicious Attack
Deep wound. Again.
Wearying Spear
It boggles the mind. Are you expected to use this then have your monk mend cond. you then use it again, rinse and repeat? That's what I've seen being done, and it seems pretty stupid.
Wild Throw
So its something to stop the enemy from blocking your adrenalin flow, which costs adrenalin? Sweet!
Cautery Signet
Great considering the ammount of disease floating around NF
Remedy Signet
Never used it, for obvious reasons.
Signet of Aggression
I could see that you might take this to keep up adrenlin between combat, but really...
So to wrap up, I really wanted to like the paragon, since I enjoyed it so much during during the PvP preview event, but in the end, it'll just be a class that I'll use only in GvG, because the PvE aspects of this class are so constrained in what you can do.
The worst part of all this really, is that the flaw lies in how the skills work in most cases, rather than the stats themselves, so Anet can't really fix the problem.
Am I looking at this wrong or something? Is it actually feasible to use P/A? P/N? etc etc?
Do these many skills I see as so very pointless actually have a use in PvE?
Mayuka
I don't think Paragons are that bad from what I have played so far and I'm enjoying the class a lot. I'm level 20 with all my heroes at level 20 as well, running FOW with one other Dervish and only heroes was great fun to get our armor. I can see where you are coming from with some of comments but here are my views on a few. Please remember that this is from a support Paragon.
Aria of Restoration
This for me is very nice for the casters in the group. At the moment I have it healing for 96 health for every spell they cast... can't be that bad.
Ballad of Restoration
I like this skill and I will always have it on my bar. At the moment I have this healing for 86 health for each hit. This will not help spike damage but that isn't my job to deal with that.
Signet of Synergy
I only use this skill the help someone that health is droping really fast and I have it healing at the moment for 96 health for no energy. The heal back to me is just a bonus and I should always get the heal because I use not enchantments in my setup.
Song of Power
I think the energy cost on this is a bit too much as I only have 32 energy. I end up using Energizing Finale on myself and the monks in the group.
I also always run into a pull just behind the tank and I found that I stand up fine to any damage that comes my way, of course baring heavy spike damage. With "Incoming!!", "Stand your Ground!!", and "Ballad of Restoration" up as defence I don't have many problem.
Aria of Restoration
This for me is very nice for the casters in the group. At the moment I have it healing for 96 health for every spell they cast... can't be that bad.
Ballad of Restoration
I like this skill and I will always have it on my bar. At the moment I have this healing for 86 health for each hit. This will not help spike damage but that isn't my job to deal with that.
Signet of Synergy
I only use this skill the help someone that health is droping really fast and I have it healing at the moment for 96 health for no energy. The heal back to me is just a bonus and I should always get the heal because I use not enchantments in my setup.
Song of Power
I think the energy cost on this is a bit too much as I only have 32 energy. I end up using Energizing Finale on myself and the monks in the group.
I also always run into a pull just behind the tank and I found that I stand up fine to any damage that comes my way, of course baring heavy spike damage. With "Incoming!!", "Stand your Ground!!", and "Ballad of Restoration" up as defence I don't have many problem.
D E L E T E D
I do think that paragons are extremely useful in a all-human team setting, the ability to keep skills on for long periods of time, and the inability for teams to remove them make paragons awesome. In pve I understand that some of the skills are quite pointless, but the game isn't all pve.
The skill bar for a paragon is a difficult thing pve and pvp. This is because you can morph the paragon into different types. One being maybe conditions, and high critical dmg, another maybe feeding the monks energy, etc. etc.
After reading I think you want paragons to be throwing 80 dmg with a spear and thats just not going to happen. You are a behind the scenes team player in pve and pvp with the paragon.
The skill bar for a paragon is a difficult thing pve and pvp. This is because you can morph the paragon into different types. One being maybe conditions, and high critical dmg, another maybe feeding the monks energy, etc. etc.
After reading I think you want paragons to be throwing 80 dmg with a spear and thats just not going to happen. You are a behind the scenes team player in pve and pvp with the paragon.
Lord Zado
You have to understand, paragon's are generally a support class, but boy can they do it so well. They are extremely mobile. Now that it's a bit harder to manage aggro in PvE, having a mobile support character is very useful.
There's 2 lines of thinking with the Paragon. You can go with the health/energy buffer builds like the above poster. Your Ballads and Arias though the Motivation attribute. Or you can go with a damage reduction/damage increase with the Command attribute. I like both so far, but I've been really leaning toward Command based builds. What I run currently is:
P/W
Spear: 10
Command: 14
Leadership: 12
Lightning Spear
Agressive Refrain/Watch Yourself
Go For the Eyes/Watch Yourself
Anthem of Flame
They're on Fire
Stand Your Ground
Incoming
Sunspear Rebirth Signet
I run a searing flames nuker for one of my heroes, so that coupled with Anthem of flame pretty much has most enemies burning throughout the fight.
When I am in a group with mostly casters, I tend to bring watch yourself and Go for the eyes. I generally focus on keeping Watch Yourself up, so I don't need as much adrenaline. When in a group with more physical damage dealers, I bring aggressive refrain and go for the eyes. Anthem of Flame + Go For the Eyes really, really buffs the damage of your allies in addition to all of the damage reduction you bring to the table. Plus with aggressive refrain, criticals and an occasional spear of lightning, your damage isn't exactly meaningless.
For areas with lots of ranged attackers, I drop spear to 9 and pump all my remaining points into Tactics and bring Shield's Up sometimes.
There's 2 lines of thinking with the Paragon. You can go with the health/energy buffer builds like the above poster. Your Ballads and Arias though the Motivation attribute. Or you can go with a damage reduction/damage increase with the Command attribute. I like both so far, but I've been really leaning toward Command based builds. What I run currently is:
P/W
Spear: 10
Command: 14
Leadership: 12
Lightning Spear
Agressive Refrain/Watch Yourself
Go For the Eyes/Watch Yourself
Anthem of Flame
They're on Fire
Stand Your Ground
Incoming
Sunspear Rebirth Signet
I run a searing flames nuker for one of my heroes, so that coupled with Anthem of flame pretty much has most enemies burning throughout the fight.
When I am in a group with mostly casters, I tend to bring watch yourself and Go for the eyes. I generally focus on keeping Watch Yourself up, so I don't need as much adrenaline. When in a group with more physical damage dealers, I bring aggressive refrain and go for the eyes. Anthem of Flame + Go For the Eyes really, really buffs the damage of your allies in addition to all of the damage reduction you bring to the table. Plus with aggressive refrain, criticals and an occasional spear of lightning, your damage isn't exactly meaningless.
For areas with lots of ranged attackers, I drop spear to 9 and pump all my remaining points into Tactics and bring Shield's Up sometimes.
TerminatorUK
I know what ya mean but I think it is the same with all new classes, there is no real de-facto standard for what goes with which build.
I think it is not so much a case of synergising the Paragon with an 'ideal' secondary class, more look at how the class is setup:
Low, 2 pips of regen
2nd best armour in the game
Caster mana pool (30 energy by default)
Ranged weaponry
Lots of skills to generate energy
Taking this into account, I think it would be possible to create a type of 'close support' character that uses a fair bit of energy as you have the ability to 'make' energy fairly readily.
Currently I'm experimenting with a P/Me to see if I can provide the team with interrupts and hexs, using Domination/Illusion magic (not Inspiration for energy), high leadership, motivation and the rest put into a mesmer stat.
To save having to spend points in spear mastery, I have subsituted that for a wand/shield combo with the wand obviously linked to the mesmer stat I am investing in.
I feel the shouts and chants (which are mainly untargetted) gives you the time to spend interrupting and hexing opponents that other support character cannot afford to waste. With a Paragon, you have both the time and the armour to achieve this which makes the class unique.
Strange eh?! Don't think it will work but experimenting is all part of the fun I think
I think it is not so much a case of synergising the Paragon with an 'ideal' secondary class, more look at how the class is setup:
Low, 2 pips of regen
2nd best armour in the game
Caster mana pool (30 energy by default)
Ranged weaponry
Lots of skills to generate energy
Taking this into account, I think it would be possible to create a type of 'close support' character that uses a fair bit of energy as you have the ability to 'make' energy fairly readily.
Currently I'm experimenting with a P/Me to see if I can provide the team with interrupts and hexs, using Domination/Illusion magic (not Inspiration for energy), high leadership, motivation and the rest put into a mesmer stat.
To save having to spend points in spear mastery, I have subsituted that for a wand/shield combo with the wand obviously linked to the mesmer stat I am investing in.
I feel the shouts and chants (which are mainly untargetted) gives you the time to spend interrupting and hexing opponents that other support character cannot afford to waste. With a Paragon, you have both the time and the armour to achieve this which makes the class unique.
Strange eh?! Don't think it will work but experimenting is all part of the fun I think
JoeKnowMo
Nice analysis of the skills. I disagree on some things, but I won't list every single thing. I'll just give an overview of my thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk 2. Only one other class has skills that really synergise with a paragon, warrior (and one useless ritualist skill, woot). This is a problem because we have a very limited number of skills on the base class itself anyway. :/ Try laying down Pain and Bloodsong and using Anthem of Flame, Anthem of Envy, or any other anthem.
Put Balthazar's Spirit on urself (maybe mending refrain or finale of restoration too) and then spread out Angelic bond.
Even better, put angelic bond on a spirit like Shelter or Union to double it's life
Put Energizing Finale on urself and use a spammable spell from another prof.
With any skill that inflicts conditions on you (wearying spear, it's just a flesh wound, cautery sig) follow up w plague sending for AoE deep wound/weakness/burning.
The IAS skills are not stances, so you can use stances from other from other profs while not losing your IAS.
Sig of aggression is good only if you want to have adrenaline fully charged before a crucial battle (and if you're w henchies, cuz ppl will get annoyed w the wait). Starting off a battle with bleeding spear and then stunning spear for a quick shutdown of a caster is nice.
Gale/Shock/any KD + Awe can also shut down a caster.
Power is Yours stops degen when you hit 0 energy, so using some negative energy items will go nicely w this. Adrenaline shouts will get your energy back up, as will energizing finale.
Quote:
3. Due to the above two points, there are 2-3 -good- builds to use in PvE, with minor variations. Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!", Aggressive refrain. You will always see at least 1 of these, if not all 3.
Anthem of Flame is too hard to leave out of most para builds b/c at leadership 10 it is essentially a free chant. The 10 sec recharge is also nice. Also, it helps trigger finales and maintain refrains. However, if you go w an all caster team then you can leave it out.
I think the para has a large variety of builds. With the new staves, you can start with 50 energy (w/o radiant insignias). Since paras have good e-management, this allows you to delve into skills from other secondaries that would otherwise be too energy intensive. I know a para w/o a spear sounds crazy, but it works well.
You can set your para up as a conditioning build, a ganking build, a shutdown build, an offensive support build, a battery, support healing, a damage mitigator, melee or ranged, a caster, condition remover, or even use spirits.
These are all viable builds in PvE.
Get over it.
Quote:
BiP is not from a secondary class, clumsiness/ineptitude is less effective than a SS/reckless haste build, and spinal shivers is fine if all you want to do is interrupt but again has nothing to do with a secondary profession.I think the para has a large variety of builds. With the new staves, you can start with 50 energy (w/o radiant insignias). Since paras have good e-management, this allows you to delve into skills from other secondaries that would otherwise be too energy intensive. I know a para w/o a spear sounds crazy, but it works well.
You can set your para up as a conditioning build, a ganking build, a shutdown build, an offensive support build, a battery, support healing, a damage mitigator, melee or ranged, a caster, condition remover, or even use spirits.
These are all viable builds in PvE.
Quote:
There are many elites in the game, and skill points are meant to be hard to come by.|
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
4. All the armour looks the damn same, and terribly girly with the exception of Vabbian, but that's a different matter.
Can't help u there ;P
Solarii
I think we have just begun to scratch the surface of what paragons are going to be capable of in PvP and PvE. I began playing one (PvE) when NF went live and beat the game with him a couple days ago. One thing I noticed was with an all hero/hench team I seemed a lot more capable of progressing than other character classes might have been. The dmg enhancement or mitigation you can give to your party members is substantial, taking pressure off hero monks by killing things quicker or helping to keep party members alive longer.
When you factor in the fact that paragons have support buffs that cant be removed, have VERY good energy management, AND have the same armor as tanks, I think you have a formidable class on your hands. I think very soon we are going to see lots of builds that have AT LEAST one paragon in them, and I can easily see builds involving more than one (ie one focusing on defensive / dmg reduction and the other on offensive buffs). While I agree with some of your assessments of the skills, I think its kind of silly to put a definitive label on them yet, especially until we get more comfortable with the skills and, more importantly, non-paragons start to realize the benefits we can bring to ANY group, be it PvE or PvP. Anyway, there's my $.02 If any paragons want to here about my builds just hit me up in game Solarii Uth Lyte (R/x) - main char Myin Hates Myang (P/W)
Mayuka
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
4. All the armour looks the damn same, and terribly girly with the exception of Vabbian, but that's a different matter.
Hmm I somehow missed this point... I don't think my armor looks the same as the others...
What would Justin Timberlake say around about now... oh yea "I'm bringin' sexy back".
PanGammon
IMO all Paragons do is yell at people..........
supaet
paragon is incredibly powerful in both pve and pvp. They do alot of damage as well as alot of pressure. Yet they have the capability of defending an entire team. They can keep a whole team of fighters with ias the entire time, and it cannot be removed. That is pretty godly already.
Firoseth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious AhruhkSong of Concentration Seems pretty useless even in PvP! Only purpose I see for it is spiking. -_-;; Having not played a paragon much, I cant really say if you are right or wrong in most of your post. However, the skill I just quoted has to be one of the most usefull and in my opinion, almost overpowered skill in pvp ever. (Heros Ascent wise). Have you ever thought how impossible it is to stop a Ghost from capping an altar if the team used this skill? Yes, I guess you can knock the Ghost down since is really your only option, but oh wait, there is Brace Yourself and/or Ward of Stability too? GG.
Hella Good
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanGammon
IMO all Paragons do is yell at people..........
Haha, how very true!
Ps are fine. If guilds are already using Ps extensively, that tells you a lot. They didn't start using Rits until way into Factions.
Keilious Ahruhk
Thanks for the insightful comments guys, though some of you are missing my point.
I'm not here saying that paragons are weak, underpowered etc. I'm saying that in PvE the skills which are effective, the builds you can use, is limited to a tiny list, and no skills from secondary classes appart from warrior work together with a paragon's skills. That being said, those are some pretty neat ideas, TerminatorUK, I'll be sure to try something like that out... Yar, I'll keep those thoughts in mind, JoeKnowMo. Solarii, I'm not arguing that Paragons are underpowered. Mayuka, I play a male, I have no beef with female paragon armour. :P supaet, I'm not arguing that Paragons are underpowered. Firoseth, thanks for reminding me about that. I had actually thought of it a few days back, but forgot. :P Either way, its not that great in PvE. :/ Durik Lakmor
I love my P/R
Posion + Burn + Bleeding all in one hit is possible with this build (build up the adrenaline for Barbed spear, cast anthem of flame and apply poison and bam you have a burning poisoined and bleeding foe) Burning Finale from what I hear is great as well. I think P/R and P/N (or maybe N/P) will both be very viable in time. There may not be many obvious builds but think of it this way, 55ing wasn't obvious either, but it worked very well. Give it some time and people will find builds that can co-operate well with secondaries, even if you only use 1-2 skills from your secondary. I mean BP rangers don't use a ton of secondary skills, but that doesn't make them less effective. Even going all primary can be fun and effective, grant it not as varied. I think there will be more PvE builds in time. Defitnaly can see some PvE Team Builds coming with 2-3 Paragons on rotations of shouts.
Dean Harper
honestly, paragons are my second favorite prof next to mesmers. They absolutely rock in both PvE and PvP. Really, the Derivsh is worse, almost like a new sin, unless you have all of the form elites. Also, war is not the only one that can go with Paragon. You can use any one you want. I have Mesmer, though you dont really need any other skills from any of the profs(primary paragon skills work great on their own) and they work great in helping your whole team with health, energy, damage, and putting conditoins on foes, i.e. burning/bleeding. They could use some more skills, since they feel kinda limited ( you can only make so many different builds with the selection given for Par and Derv) but that is to be expected of new profs. Overall, Paragons totally dominate, so i COMPLETELY disagree with you.
Keilious Ahruhk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Harper
noocoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayuka
Hmm I somehow missed this point... I don't think my armor looks the same as the others...
What would Justin Timberlake say around about now... oh yea "I'm bringin' sexy back". So, do you assume that everyone could afford Fissure armor?
Ulivious The Reaper
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanGammon
IMO all Paragons do is yell at people..........
aint that the truth, i mean they don't even yell remotely useful things, they're like GO FOR THE EYES, i'm like...Watch yourself! Sheilds up! in the same time it takes them to say Gfte, however, their anthems are grand
 besides paragons are a mix of ranger (conditions) ritualist (support) and warrior (sheilds) so if oyu base it on looks, then you're like crapped out, because combining warrior platemail, ranger uglyness and the ritualists belly showing ability then you get ugly armor,
Mayuka
Quote:
Originally Posted by noocoo
So, do you assume that everyone could afford Fissure armor?
The point isn't that "could everyone afford Fissure armor", the point was to show that not all the armor looks the same. I am trying to work out here why you got the impression I was saying everyone should get this armor... Read the quote I quoted in that post...
Ken Dei
Personally, I love the Paragon, It's my favorite ranged class in PvP (I only AB, where I don't have to stress if I die.)
I've tried a spear heavy set up with barbed, burning and merciless. Added "To the Limit" for a fast Adren. Boost and found it nice and effective to kill things with. Then I wanted to try and be a buffer and liked the Motivation skills. I throw up Finales of Restoration and Purification, followed by Ballad of Restoration and Zealous Anthem. Therefore, upon immediate contact in battle, the first dmg to my people is mostly negated by the double heal from the Ballad +Finale of Restoration, in addition any initial conditions are also cleared. Once my team use their first attack skill they get some if not all of that energy back for their next attack. Once that's subsided I've picked a target to chuck spears at and start watching health bars. If someone becomes a target I use Signet of Synergy and Mending Refrain to help heal, both are very effective. To finish out the skills I have Barbed Spear to add bleeding to a target and activate Zealous Anthem on myself, and Gladiator's defense incase those nasty melees get to close.
Qual
Paragons got the best looking armor, and are very fun too play. I agree in some of your points but still I think you are kinda lame. No hard feelings.
Sophitia Leafblade
I wasnt too keen on the Paragon to begin with but i began to like it and now i love it as much as the other types. Its a great team supporter with some cool looking armour and some very handy skills.
Solarii
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
3. Due to the above two points, there are 2-3 -good- builds to use in PvE, with minor variations. Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!", Aggressive refrain. You will always see at least 1 of these, if not all 3.
Do these many skills I see as so very pointless actually have a use in PvE? I'm sorry, but by that logic almost every class falls into the same category. Are you saying because necros usually only use a MM or SS build they are useless in PvE? Or Rangers that don't use a cripshot or interrupt build are useless? They're brand new! Give it a little more time before condemning Paragons.
Keilious Ahruhk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarii
I'm sorry, but by that logic almost every class falls into the same category. Are you saying because necros usually only use a MM or SS build they are useless in PvE? Or Rangers that don't use a cripshot or interrupt build are useless? They're brand new! Give it a little more time before condemning Paragons.
Err, but with a necro you can use secondary classes for a wide variety of builds, whether it be a BiP necro, or a clumsiness/ineptitude curses necro, or even a sword-swingin' Spinal Shivers necro.
Now, how about you give me an effective build for a P/E? Or a P/Rt? Even a P/D? I'm not saying that paragons USUALLY use one of just a few builds, I'm saying you're confined to those few builds because most paragon skills suck in PvE, and secondary classes don't synergise with a paragon with the exception of Warrior. :/
Hella Good
Paragon and Rit have great synergy. Combining the two is sure to produce some nice results in a PvE environment. And in PvP for that matter.
Ps have the power to deal damage, provide party-wide support (including e-management), and pressure. That's gotta count as something in PvE... If you need to augment any of these abilities just borrow from your 2ndary. I think Ps are facing a much better fate than Sins ever did in PvE.
lyra_song
Its not a core class, you wont have as much variety in builds.
Get over it.
Desires
I can't belive people think paragons are weak even in pve. First in pvp their just godly:
eg. protect monk+rit+steroids=paragons Icoming has to be my fav skill in the game even though I never played a paragon. But seriously 7 seconds of 50% damage reduction(which applies to things such as SS aswell) is very powerful. If you got a Para who knows when to use it you can migate a hell of alot of damage. I'm still waiting for the triple chain "incoming" builds. In PVE I almost never level home without my paragon hero. Incoming,Stand your ground,Their on fire(while running a searing flames or two) and you'll be taking very little damage.
Sasuke The Betrayer
I enjoy the Paragon combination of Soldier's Fury + Watch Yourself, especially after Tiger's Fury nerf
Soldiders Fury + Watch Yourself= Constant +5 energy (If watch yourself is constantly used) 33% Damage Speed +20 Armor Yay :O?
Keilious Ahruhk
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyra_song
Get over it. |
Get over it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Desires
I can't belive people think paragons are weak even in pve. First in pvp their just godly:
eg. protect monk+rit+steroids=paragons Icoming has to be my fav skill in the game even though I never played a paragon. But seriously 7 seconds of 50% damage reduction(which applies to things such as SS aswell) is very powerful. If you got a Para who knows when to use it you can migate a hell of alot of damage. I'm still waiting for the triple chain "incoming" builds. In PVE I almost never level home without my paragon hero. Incoming,Stand your ground,Their on fire(while running a searing flames or two) and you'll be taking very little damage. This is really beginning to become a pain, READ THE DAMN THREAD BEFORE YOU POST. I'm not complaining that Paragons are weak in PvP OR PvE, I'm saying that in PvE there is a lack of variety of builds available due to the fact that no skills synergise with anything except for warrior tactics and Vocal was Sologon. As for what Sasuke was saying, see my point? You either take warrior as a worthy secondary or... Ranger, possibly, if you're daring, but that's IT. Silk Weaver
"I agree in some of your points but still I think you are kinda lame. No hard feelings."
Best post evar! I must admit that I haven't touched paragons at all, and if I did, I simply stuck all the best skills, those noted in your first post, onto Morgan, and then allowed him to spam lightning spear, barbed spear, and disrupting spear, etc. A few comments... what nerf? Touch rangers? They are as good/lame as they were before. Cripshots still own them without breaking a sweat, but they haven't been nerfed. Who said Can't Touch This is for touch rangers? What the hell got that into your head? The skill's meant, aside from the hammertime, to stop skills like blackout and shock. For a toucher, Can't Touch can be disabled with 4 swift presses on the Plague Touch button, so really now. Now what I can say about paragons are that spears are dissapointing. Aside from the strange armor ignoring spear of lightning, I can say that using an R/P, which would, theoretically work like a cripshot, interrupting, spreading lots of degen, and cover up daze... does not work. My bar during the event was somewhat like: Lightning Spear, Barbed Spear, Disrupting Throw, Stunning Throw, Wild Throw, Apply Poison, Troll Unguent, Rez Sig. It's the arc, you can't interupt anything 1 second long unless you're next to them or extremely lucky, and the spears fly everywhere too. It's to the point where you can dodge them without trying very hard. We did a 6 paragon team at GvG at one point, and although we did win eventually, the spears were everywhere. Attempts at spiking failed. Okay, so you stun the two monks, and some more, then some guys sets up Wild Throw, someone Deep Wounds, and everyone spams LS+Disrupting to spike, and they die, right? No. Ugh. They are better used as melee weapons than ranged. I mean I know it's a great class and everyone uses it now, but I've grown a loathing for it that will probably never go away.
Hella Good
I like the Rt/P combo with Spirit's Str/Sight Beyond Sight. Wep armor and Vital Wep. Spears and Communing/Motivation/Command. It's pretty neat. Or P/Rt with Wep of Fury. It's nice high damage combos.
Keilious Ahruhk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
A few comments... what nerf? Touch rangers? They are as good/lame as they were before. Cripshots still own them without breaking a sweat, but they haven't been nerfed. Who said Can't Touch This is for touch rangers? What the hell got that into your head? The skill's meant, aside from the hammertime, to stop skills like blackout and shock. For a toucher, Can't Touch can be disabled with 4 swift presses on the Plague Touch button, so really now.
No, "Can't Touch this!" initially affected all allies, rather than just yourself, try to think back a little before going on the war path.
JoeKnowMo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
|
Quote: Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk Now, how about you give me an effective build for a P/E? Or a P/Rt? Even a P/D? Ok, here goes:
P/Mo: Angelic bonder w Balth spirit on urself. Prevents instant death from e-surge/searing flames mobs.
P/E: Mark of Rodgort spammer (see below).
P/Rt: Offensive spirits w anthem of flame and anthem of envy.
P/Rt: Defensive spirits w angelic bond on the spirits and teammates to prevent spikes.
P/D: Use scythe skills, put burning finale on yourself and spam GFTE.
P/N: Use a staff, raise bone minions and put burning refrain on them and energizing finale on urself.
P/N: Use it's just a flesh wound with plague sending.
P/R: Spam barrage and GFTE. No energy problems. Use energizing finale if needed.
Not a bad list for a prof that's only been out for a week and a half.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
I'm not saying that paragons USUALLY use one of just a few builds, I'm saying you're confined to those few builds because most paragon skills suck in PvE, and secondary classes don't synergise with a paragon with the exception of Warrior. :/
If you make a Skill list like yours of any profession, you will conclude that only a few skills are really great in pve and the rest are so-so to bad. How many different "good" monk or warrior or mesmer or ele or necro or rit or ranger builds are there in pve? Very few.
Sure, paragons have a limited number of builds, but certainly not more limited than any other profession. You seem to think that paragons have "synergy" only w warriors but not other professions. What synergy do monks have w secondary professions in pve? None, except for mesmer for boon prot. What about warriors? Little synergy w rangers, and that's pretty much it, unless you think mending is great ;P. The same goes for the rest of the professions. For example, fast-cast nukers and fast-cast healers are sub-par in pve. Maybe if you could give a few examples of this "synergy" that paragons lack (and that u insinuate that other classes have) we could respond better. Where paragons shine is in their synergy w the rest of their team. For example, you can run a 4-man paragon based build w heroes (using finale of restoration and spamming GFTE) and kill almost any mobs in NF. You can also put Searing Flames on both ur ele heroes and keep their energy up so they can spam it. Another great build w my heroes is an MM w fiends and horrors, 2 barrage rangers w GFTE or any adrenaline chant/shout, and my paragon w mark of rodgort, energizing finale, anthem of flame, burning finale, burning refrain (for horrors), and they're on fire. One of the rangers brings conflagaration and voila everything's on fire (since minions don't focus fire). If you're "disappointed" w paragons then I really don't see how you could be happy w any other profession. Silk Weaver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
No, "Can't Touch this!" initially affected all allies, rather than just yourself, try to think back a little before going on the war path.
That's not the issue, since plague touch will still stop it. Of course, if you're saying that the ranger will be changing targets... I don't think Touch Rangers involve that much tactics, honestly. Not saying it won't help against a toucher, but it's not a "counter". Can't Touch This isn't geared towards touch rangers, that's all-- think about how much more disruptive it would be against a team with shock and blackout. For a touch ranger, 8 energy and it's gone, and that's assuming level 12. And how exactly has touch rangers been nerfed? I don't think it has ever been a dangerous or imbalanced enough build that Anet cared about nerfing it.
Thom Bangalter
You can run any build you want, but it's hard for any profession to run an optimized build properly. These skill combinations have already been proven to be very effective, and that's why it's run. You can run a paragon with empathy (I saw someone advertising that's what they had) but you know what? that's dumb.
ramma77
i love my paragon.
equipping my heroes with certain skills means i have constant 25% attack speed, constant 3 health regen, a %48 chance to critical every 2-3 seconds, and when they do critical it's a deep wound for 14 seconds and once koss gets into the mix all adjacent foes are burning non-stop until they die. DarkZeal
I have to agree that apart from looking kinda cool. Paragon are subpar in PVE and probabaly PVP.
Dahl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
1. The skills of a paragon are designed with extreme environments in mind, ie. where an entire team is built around them, making alot -most- of them useless in PvE. 2. Only one other class has skills that really synergise with a paragon, warrior (and one useless ritualist skill, woot). This is a problem because we have a very limited number of skills on the base class itself anyway. :/ 3. Due to the above two points, there are 2-3 -good- builds to use in PvE, with minor variations. Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!", Aggressive refrain. You will always see at least 1 of these, if not all 3. 4. All the armour looks the damn same, and terribly girly with the exception of Vabbian, but that's a different matter. This is only because the Paragon hasn't been around long enough for people to discover builds. I use a paragon in pve and I don't use those skills and I'm immensely effective. A monk + my paragon is twice as effective at keeping the team alive as 2 monks. I won't release my build though because I don't want it turned into the cookie cutter healagon build like boon prot. Try NOT using other peoples builds, and make your own. Use your OWN brain. Also, yes the armor is kinda bad, and the headgear is even worse. They should have created centurion style roman helms instead and armor that covers the whole body.. For this reason I've went with Elonian Armor which does cover the body, but it's the only kind that really does. **EDIT** Oh, and I forgot to mention, my paragon doesn't go below 1/2 energy. EVER. Nor do I even use any energy gain skills. So denial isn't an issue. I can always continue doing my job no matter the pressure. SirShadowrunner
Paragons are great, who else can sit in the middle of the action getting hit and not
take to much damage and give out almost endless support, nobody that's who, j/k I'm sure they are there. With 80 armor and healing and energy support galore, hard to go wrong with, as far as a variety of builds, like someone said, the game has not even been out 2 weeks yet, give it a rest. In the meantime, I am runniing P/Me, put in signet of cluminess and cluminess, or go with inspiration skills and use power drain and enchantment removal for good interupting and energy recovery. I still want to try out some staff or wand/offhands for more energy and try some different mesmer skills, but am wondering how much damage I will take giving up my shield, anyone mess around with this yet ??? thx..... Carney_Folk
I love my paragon. I am not a good person to comment here i am sure, i have only had GW for about 2 weeks. But the most important thing is, i have tons of fun while playing the class. I am very effective in PVE with my heals and dmg absorb. I want to get into pvp but i am a bit intimidated right now since i am still trying to figure out all the controls and the class completely. I am a veteran of more then a few mmorpg's and i can say that the paragon is one of the most interesting / fun classes i have played. (Except my friar in DAoC, loved that character). Ultimately the paragon is a very solid class, it will just take a bit to figure out the potential combo's with the other secondary classes.
Just my 2 cents. |
