Problem: Solution?

Well heres a couple of things

One, Im not a runner anymore - In fact i probley only did runs for about a 2 week period - and a lot of them were for friends i had, or for tips. I originally wanted to do it as a way to make money, But there were so many people who didn't tip, who just left - or people who didn't pay whatever i was aksing - and i never really made that much from it, and it was quite boring.

And the other, I didn't expect payment from them - otherwise i would have told them. But if you were a new player, and someone said they would help you out, for free, Would you not have the respect to thank them?? I would thank them, Anytime I have ever gotten help in any way from anyone, I thank the person.

And that was just one example. I have had a lot of things bad happen and very few good when i have been willing to help another person. Anytime i help a friend out, they are always very thankful, and when i help a complete stranger out, sometimes they are nice, and thank me, and other times they don't say a word to me, and just leave after i have helped them get what they want. Frankly, I hate doing things for people when they dont really care or appreciate it.

And again, I am no longer a runner, and when i have helped others i havent been just a runner. I have helped people on each of my characters, And I have one of each character class. I have helped as a monk to groups that needed a monk badly, I often times would go to towns with my monk - even to a mission i had already done, beacuse I knew monks were badly needed before hero's.

Edit: I think you are confusing the point i am really trying to make. It would be AWESOME if you could go back and help people out, and if they could truely appreciate it, and learn from you. and in some cases, that happens, and in others the person is rude, they don't learn anything, and/or they just leech from you. And I don't know about anyone else, But I wouldn't want to waste my time on a person like that.

amen. if there were more helping hands in gw it would run smother. (not that it isnt) but for people that just started playing RPG's and gw is there 1st one. make it enjoyable not stupid. when u 1st started playing you asked for help. not only in gw but this goes to the world issues too. helping hands make light work. you could be having fun helping a new player quest and timw will pass. youll be surprized that when you actually me this "n00b" he/she could be a very nice person.

I think you have my angle confused...I'm not blaming Heroes for anything, in fact I love Heroes, they are a great idea! As you said they are a god send! So please do not think for even a moment that I am blaming Heroes for anything.

I however do not share your assertion that PUGing is hopeless, and that it's useless to try because of the attitudes and actions of lesser players...

And dont get me wrong, I'm not hoping to turn this game into a utopia, I am just trying to work for improvement rather than accepting that things are on an inevitable and hopless downward spiral.

People seen to confuse a handout from mentorship.

In that case, i wish you luck and good will since my experience as with most things is: Its often easier to change yourself than others. Its not easy to forget 16 months of bad PuG experiences (Pugs have become like a marriage gone bad lol)

The Holding hands and WoW statement wasnt neccessary targeted at you but generally to all those who would blame everyone else but themselves for their all their problems or the state of the events ingame post Heros. Glad you didnt take it too personally.

There are some PuGs that are good and it can be a good way to meet people but the bad often outweight the good ones more often not.

I think it was easier to find a decent/good PUG when there was just Prophecies, just as it was easier then to help noobs.

Think about it; when it was just Prophecies, everyone was starting out, somewhat, at the same level (I'm talking about PVE). Learning your chosen profession, the skills, the missions, builds...you get the idea. I was a prime example of a noob (and when I say noob, I mean NOOB)..I had never played a MMORPG before Prophecies. I took my time in Pre-Searing learning how to play a warrior; how my skills worked, how to read the map, what aggro was--you get the point. The only people I grouped with at the time were guildmates for a few of the first missions after Pre-Searing--hadn't worked up the nerve to group with other people yet, because my worry was that I was gonna stink up the joint.

At some point, IMO, there is a moment when you, as a player, have to make a choice; how good do you want to be at this game? Do you want to just run with guildmates and coast, or test what it is you know, and see what you can do by yourself?

The Frost Gate mission was my moment. It took me about 6-8 attempts, but I did it. That mission taught me some things--that one build doesnt work for the whole game; how to make a balanced group (with henches), and most important, to learn SOMETHING about a mission/quest before I try it (I'll also say, the whole time, I did enjoy it, ESPECIALLY when I beat it!). Now, yes, I could have gotten my guildmates to help me, but I wouldn't have had that learning moment, and, IMO, would probably have felt like a liability in a PUG. BUT, once I went through that "trial by fire", I felt my grasp of the mechanics benefitted because of that.

IMO, the best time to help noobs would be at the begining of the game--Pre-Searing in Prophecies, Shing Jea in Factions, Istan in Nightfall, and the first few missions in each chapter. After that, I don't think it unreasonable to expect PUG members to have some idea about the mission or quest you're about to embark on.

I also think, at this point, that it's up to you, as the experienced player, to know when a person needs some real help, and if they're sincere about it, versus someone who's looking for a ride through the mission/quest, or for you to be theire "runner" all over the map. At this point, IMO, is when your Friend's List comes in. You find that person who you want to help-- talk to them 1st. It doesnt take anything but a little time to answer questions; that's how you get to know people, and you get a genuine feel for if they're sincere or not. If they are, guess what? you've made a friend. If not, then it didnt cost you anything but 5-10 minutes.

My appologies if I have in any way offended you! Though I believe you and I are much on the same page, just different paragraphs. Heh!

I can completely understand how helping the thankless can be tiring and agrevating, afterall I do support for a living (no not for ANet or any affiliated company) and rarely do I hear a thank you. However I choose to be pleasanat and professional with every one of my callers not merely because it is my job, but because everyone deserves the chance to prove themselves good or bad. If someone fails to thank you then you would be obliged to never help that person again. If someone thanks you however I would expect that you might consider actually offering assistance the next time you see them! Courtesy should be rewarded and so seldom is!

I could start an entire separate thread on the death of courtesy in modern society and rant for hours about how people have become increasingly rude and reactionary both online and in real life! Sometimes it seems as though everyone is offended by everything, and what's worse, no one trys to do the opposite of offend (which is to compliment or thank) unless they are getting
something out of it!

But that's a Tangent for a different thread!

I am glad to hear that you are no longer a runner as I think running contributes much more to the problem than to the solution...Again teach a man to fish...

I have turned my back on PUG's, got through all of Nightfall with hench and heroes and hope to never be put in a position to have to rely on a PUG.

I take nothing personally that is written online, as to do so is to be a fool.

...And you and I are on the same side of this for the most part!

I for one will continue to sift through the dross to find those diamonds!

This is a perfect post and I can find no way to improve upon it other than to add: BRAVO!

And it is your right to do so! However I personally feel that in doing so you abdicate your right to complain about the lack of good people willing to be part of a PUG becaus in removing yourself I will assume you have removed from the pool a player you consider worth playing with...

I am sorry to hear that past negative experiences have driven you away from the community side of this game. Maybe someday you'll come back if things change. Myself I hold out only a slim hope that any action can do more than change my own personal experience in the game and that of those I connect with...I have no illusions that my actions will change the entire community, but I can change the experience of those I deal with directly, and I will be satisfied with that for now.

I am trying to energize a movement in this forum towards building rather than dismantling the player base.

By removing yourself from the player base you only exacerbate the problem by removing a valid player from the available pool.

But again, it is your right to do so and I respect that right.

It's an easy mistake to make.

Its the difference between giving a man with a sign that says "will work for food" a job offer, or a dollar to get drunk.

And yes, I know some bums just want the dollar...but they wont get it from me.



Edit: Though on the other hand I once gave a dollar to a bum who had a sign that read: "Why lie, I need money to buy booze!" I like to reward honesty! And I felt he should be paid for the laugh he gave me, since I was having a bad day and it cheered me right up!

PREACH IT BROTHER!

The n00b you help today may be your guildmate tomorrow!
(or like...next month or something...heheh)

The OP loves to use question marks -_-;;;

However he is right in a lot of ways... I know a lot of you are voicing loudly against helping newbs but not all are the same and some would greatly bennefit from some assistance and understanding here and there. There are simple things like teaching them about controls and so forth that will help them without actually taking any real time away from what you are doing... Do you have any idea how helpful it is to a newb to learn what alt and control do? It wasn't for a few months that I ever bothered to read the manual and most are the same - they don't want to read they want to play.

Everyone starts out at the bottom, some of us are just litterally ahead of the game. If I hadn't been determined to make my cap in a lame dead capping group I wouldn't have met one other like mind that introduced me and my guild to farming things like SF/FoW/UW. We had no clue how to do SF or FoW till then and now we are decently skilled at it and we occassionally take some newbs with us to show them the ropes so that they can go on to teach someone else.

Not everyone is going to look a gift horse in the mouth, take it for what it is, even if it's only making you feel better about yourself. You cannot force them to improve but just the effort will eventually be truly worth it.

Also I don't think the OP meant that we should go through the game with newbs on our high levels, but that creating a low level and going through over again when bored would be helpful indeed. I do not believe being a high level and helping newbs through missions is that great of an idea -_- Seems to either turn them off to the game or makes them moochers >_<


(these are my opinions!)

I want to add that I refuse to "completely" PUG any mission that I need.... Getting left on the wayside because the majority of the group is Pugs and they all think they are some form of leet makes it very hard to lead them -_- However if I have at least 1-2 other guildmates with me, no prob - if the group wont listen though ya can't force them... You come to realize that they will wise up and complete the task at hand or you will all perish. Either way it wont be but a few mins more why quit? Besides if you see them fail because they refuse to listen they might still their fingers long enough for you to explain the second time around what they refused to pay attention to the first.

The main problem is that the average newbie isn't willing to learn. I've tried to teach people and it's like talking to a brick wall. Heck, people won't even listen to you on the forums, nevermind in-game. Take a look at all of the builds posted in the class sections - 90% of them are utter garbage, but people keep posting the same kinds of builds anyway.

Wonder why henchmen are so amazing? Their AI sucks and their skillbars are sub-par, but they follow directions. If newbies could do this, PuGing wouldn't draw all of this hate.

without some type of "screening" process for potential buyers of gw products there will always be your "forever nubbers". like the op has stated, helping others in a thoughtful manner maybe a step in the right direction in alleviating the problem but its not going to cure all woes. we live in an imperfect world and there will be people willing to help out of the goodness of their hearts [ie. gw mother theresas], others that will help for self gratification [the minority of the gw population], and yet others that will do nothing at all because they believe it to be hopeless [the majority of the gw population].

i, for one, do what i can to help noobs get on their feet but in the end, whether my help contributes to the problem or helps, i really dont know.

Fair enough, And I not only like your oppinions, but share them!


As to the question marks, I believe they were at the end of questions yes? Heheheh... I figured that since this thread was desinged to provoke response, beginning with a bunch of provocative questions on my subject of choice would be a good way to start!


And, you have it exactly right, I was not reccomending an asceneded level 20 take a n00b through Althea's ashes...however I dont think it would be inappropriate to do so with a character a few levels higher or lower than they are...I dont expect anyone to start a new character for each n00b.

Do you forget that you were oncce a n00b? Everyone was once!

I will grant that some n00bs are difficult, and some are even not worth the effort...I think its pretty easy to tell who those people are tho and get rid of them before you get a migraine over it.

No one is asking you to play with fools, just n00bs who might one day become valued members of the GW community!

The fact that you do something, that you get involved in any way means taht you are helping more than hurting at this point. The people who are doing the most harm are the ones who have dropped out of the community at large to become hermits...playing with Heroes and Henchies because they can't stand the thoguht of risking a debacle with a PUG. While it is their choice to do so, I think that it contributes to the problem. Even standing in the town center telling dirty jokes does more to help the community than hiding away in your own private instance talking to no one.

...maybe some people should start small...if they are afraid to PUG with a n00b, perhaps they could bring themselves to at least talk to one...

I found your post to be very refreshing! How nice it is to read something positive instead of the usual moaning or flaming. Personally I think its a great idea. I'm with you!

Exactly. In my experience, whenever you try to teach anyone anything, they do not listen. Period. They'll get angry, map out, call you names, or just ignore you. I occassionally have dealings with new players who sincerely want to learn, and it's nice taking them under one's wing for a while...but other than that, it's too frustrating for me.

This is why I don't do this. Whenever I MUST PuG (I'd rather spend 2 hours with 60% dp than PuG), then I never, ever, no matter what, let a W/Mo into my team. No matter what I say, they refuse to believe their god-almighty mending is crap. Even when I tell them to replace it with something like Live Vicariously, then stack it with Vigorous Spirit (I know Healing Signet is better and saves a slot, you gotta take it slow with wammos), they say that they replace it, then when the mission starts I hear that familiar sound. Thats when I leave. Some smart wammos (yes I know theres no such thing, but you get the idea) wait until I'm busy with evis/executioners until they put mending up.

Note: for you lazy people who only read the first line of each paragraph, this post is about how 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9% of wammos are idiots and dont listen to anyone because they don't want to offend the god of mending.

Didnt really offend me, Just wanted to make it clear im not a runner anymore lol. I just used that as an example for one of many experiances.

I do think though that people should help others instead of calling them a 'n00b' - But then again its not just people appreciating help, its people willing to give help instead of being rude themselves.

Everyone just needs to be nice

Note: I have not read this whole thread, just bits and pieces so far.


As from what I can see you don't support running, yet contradict yourself with the "teach a man to fish..." quote.

If you're running, you are probably 3/4ths of the time showing someone els how to run, even though you don't know that. So in a way isn't that "teach a man to fish..." as well?

You're teaching someone els how to run so they can make a living off of running, isn't that the same as "if you teach a man to fish..."?


I myself run people all the time, usually I do not charge. When i get bored I will go to Ascalon, Lions Arch, Yaks Bend, or even the Desert, and run people for free. is this still as you say "bad for the community" yet I am helping people for free?

Glad to hear that you are onboard!
I just led a PUG through a Mission, we failed the bonus (which is all I wanted anyhow) but I thanked them, all for the effort and the company! Everyone was well behaved, and we worked together quite well I thought! If you see Hawaiian Thug online tonight, hook up with him, he was fun to party with!

Dont let your bad experiences prevent you from having new ones which may be good! Keep trying! You admit there are good ones out there! Find them!

I play a WaMo and I have sworn off of mending after hearing compelling arguments as to exactly WHY it was crap...you have to be prepared to give Mending devotees numbers they will understand!

Sage advice for me that helped me break my dependence was "Let the healers heal, you are there to do damage!"

I was nervous at first, but have never looked back since!

Hi, My name is Jedrak, and I'm a Mendaholic, I've been clean for 10 levels...

<all> Hi Jedrak!

Um, assuming "PuG" = person unassociated with Guild/Group....

I'm a PuG for life.

I'm antisocial in-game, and despise having to rely on another human player for anything...though I did buy one run to Droknars.

Now, from that point of view, this is what I've seen:
-This game is not a community-oriented playing environment.

-Players exploit each other, either for runs, or for money, or for items.

-Scammers run rampant, even with the reporting function.

-Laziness and greed are the primary motivators, instead of drive to finish the game, and a sense of adventure when exploring (seems like no one explores just for the hell of it anymore)


You wanna improve the game, give PuG's a better reason to join a Guild than "so you have people to help with this or that mission."

In a way it is bad, even if you are being community minded in helping them to learn how to run...When you run someone they get to a place in the game they do not yet belong. This leads to n00bs in Droks, a place that should hold no n00bs unless they are perma-n00bs beyond hope! Instead you might just have some poor n00b who wants pretty armor for his WaMO...in an area they are 5 levels and 10 missions too inexperienced for...The result is that Droks is no longer a place for the elite, but a place for anyont with a runner's fee.

Also it spoils the game for that poor n00b because they have in essence cheated to get to a place they never could have so soon on their own.

While not horrible, its still not great. I 've seen many argue over whether or not its cheating, and I have to kind of say that it feels like it is...

However, I am not going to say you are bad or evil for wanting to run, as that's jsut silly, everyone can play the game the way they like, I am merely trying to get people to play with people a bit more and not hide behind bots because they might get a bad n00b when PUGing.

Also as the OP said, it's something to do when Running and Farming have been nerfed or lose their shine!

Perhaps the problem is that such reasons are not being stated. I joined a guild to have a sense of community, and I got it. I joined a guild to have a group of players with whom to associate myself that I could rely on to not be Ragers or Scammers or Leeches or AFKers or Griefers...Someone who would have a voice of experience and be able to assist me when I got lost.

In spite of this I am always looking for PUGs because I figure out of a purported 2,000,000 players, my little guild of 500 is nothing! Its a cozy little group within a much much larger world!

And I explore because I dont want to miss anything, I want to see every inch...and I am sometimes surprised when I remember to look up in an area I've been through 20 times only to find that there are things I had never noticed before! Does that count as "for the heck of it"?

Not every "noob" you see is actually new to the game. I myself get tired of playing all my characters through the game over and over. You would too if you had 5+ accounts filled with characters.

A lot of other people do the same because they have indeed beat the game, and it's done and over with, and don't see it necessary to do it all over again just because it's basically a waste of their time.

I've never met anyone nor thought that Droknars was the "Elite" place in the game. Even back when I was "noob" and got my "wammo" there for the first time. To me it was the place where you got the "best" armor.

I do understand what you mean though, but like I said, not every person being ran is a "noob" that's been playing for the first time.


Also, if it is possible, try and answer as many posts as you can in 1 reply, even if it is long, so you don't get yelled at for "double posting". .

I operate under the assumption 90% of the people I'll meet will do something stupid in the short time I'll know them. Thus, I do not hold much hope for a community as expansive as Guild Wars to improve itself simply by helping new players. That said, this idea is a wonderful one. There's mentor systems in some games, and they work fairly well. Granted, most of those systems give the mentors some stuff when their students get to a certain point, but some mentors do it for fun. If other games can do it, so can Guild Wars! Though I myself had no problems playing GW my first time through (I play too many games to have any of those types of problems), I know some people that need someone to explain things. They won't figure it out themselves, but once someone tells them, they pick it up fairly fast. Thus, I think this is a good idea. Dunno if any GW players (not counting guildies... guildies ftw!) will do it without an incentive though, considering GW is a free game and whatnot...

I have always seen lvl20s in lower level areas offering to help with quests and missions for free. Personally, I have helped with quests and information numerous times.

I also regularly take mid-level (req 3-6) weapons to beginner areas and give them away. That occasional "wow" with the thank you can make up for a lousy day with your own character. (For all chapters, bows are the most wanted.)

I'll also give away collector drops required for armor or weapons. None of this requires more than my time, of which I have plenty, so costs me nothing. And what have I lost over the last 8 months? Possibly a few thousand in merchant sales. And, hopefully, the players I've helped (and those whom other players have helped) go on with a more generous attitude of their own.

But OP, you are preaching to the choir. A person who agrees is usually already doing the things you listed. A person who disagrees will never do them, feeling that "everyone should help themselves."

Fair enough, but then again you would more likely be the exception than the rule I would assume...Afterall there are enough full time runners that they can't all be ferrying people on their 5th (or more) character...

Also, I am sure with that many character that you have friends/guildmates who would be willing to ferry you to Droks since you have been playing for so long...it should not require that there be people that choose to make their living off of running...

But I digress, this is a tangent, and I never meant this to end up as a debate over running...plus the general concensus is that with the New AI running has been mostly nerfed yes?

As to the double posting...I understand what you mean, but I am not actually double posting, I am merely giving each person individual answers...doing so also benefits this thread as it helps to keep it alive without meaningless posts that contribute nothing mroe than *bump* to the thread.

It would be my foolish and naieve hope that improving the community would be the only reward people would need. That having less n00bs and more rewarding PUGs would make the entire experience more rewarding. Also, again, my suggestion was ment as something for people who have become bored/bitter about Running and Farming because of the recent AI changes, or because they have the "been there done that" blahs...

As to your base assumption that 90% of people are essentially stupid and annoying...well as I mentioned earlier I do support for a living, so I am heartily inclined to agree with you...but I've found that there are two distinct ways to handle that little fact, bothin the support world and online...Either you let it get to you, and it turns you into an angry, bitter sociopath who would rather be alone than tollerate fools...or you laugh it off and look forward to the 10% that isn't stupid...Besides most of what people call "stupid" is usually more of a case of "just didn't know". Dont get the impression that I am an unshakable optimist, or that I think all people are inherently good or any sort of nonsense like that...

I just think everyone deserves a chance and that shunning everyone because of the bad experiences that other has given you does a disservice to those you have yet to meet as well as yourself. It also means that the people who gave you grief have won...They've beaten you into submission and your reaction is "One burned twice shy."

Thank you for your support! Players like you are not extinct yet and it makes me glad to know that!

I understand that those who already feel as I do already do the things I am choosing to champion in this thread, however my hope is to motivate some of those who find themselves becomming estranged due to a constellation of factors...players who would not only prove an asset in this capacity, but who would themselves benefit by what may appear to them to be a new way of viewing the community, and an active way to work towards the betterment of the community as a whole.

The persons I am trying to motivate are those in other threads who spend hours writing posts about how the thrill is gone, how there are no more PUGs, how everything was better once upon a time, how now that farming has been nerfed there is nothing left for them...

I am offering them a constructive alternative!

Yesterday I took a group through a mission and during the mission I snagged a Silver dye and a Brown dye as well as a few Purples whose modifiers proved worthwhile once removed...so there are monetary rewards as well as the reward of improving the overall experience of Guild Wars for yourself and for others!

My creedo: Be the player that you would say "...is an excellent player!"

FexFX -_- XoO -_- Well I am glad to know that they do act more like a community than I thought. *has faced them several times in HA* They always make it nice and challenging for us. Also hun learn to edit and add as Stalker said, otherwise someone might come along and yell at you for spamming your own thread.
------------------------------------------

*pokes Stalker* Sparkler La Boom still has her sezzy Aeromancer armor ^_^ That was a long fun night of running

------------------------------------------


It's hard to find a guild that is worthy of not just competent players but selfless ones as well. We try to run our guild that way.... Filtering through not just bad players but moochers makes it really hard - many guilds don't even bother. It is however worth it to find one and stick with it - not everyone is out for greed - and yet not everyone is worth typing a simple hello to -_-

Our guild has managed pretty successfully to surround itself with likeminded people who help each other from anything ingame to just listening if they need to rant about life in general. I can say with certainty that our guild is not the only one out there like that - that the people within our guild are not the only ones. It just takes patience to weed out the good from the bad and ditch the ugly. Some can be taught, others just don't care, but each of the ones that do care are worth the time and effort.

I resent the implication in the OP that hero's are to blame for this. I'm a die hard fan of the hero system. I don't care what game you play PUGs are always a pain. It's a crap shoot as to whether you will even get through the part you are trying to get through with pugs.

It would be nice if everyone was skilled enough to make PUGs worthwhile, but sadly this is not the case. Now I had no one to hold my hand and tell me how to use a build or what skills to take on a mission. I don't think that molly coddling newbies through the game is necessarily going to create better players only more dependent players. There is a wealth of information right here on this board on tactics, builds, and techniques. There are even discussions of the metagame to be found here and this is just one of many many sites on the web devoted to Guild Wars.

My point is that you can't blame Heros for the lack of groups. The only thing that happened here is that Anet finally gave us an alternative to bad henchman AI and, sometimes, even worse player intelligence. The root cause of the problem is a lack of knowledge amongst the player base. If every newbie did what many of us did, that is read the fansites, the wikis, and the Guild Wars homepage, and try to learn on their own, at least enough to not make them a liability in game, then maybe PUGs would be more attractive.

It's sad to say though that many people do not want to put forth that extra effort. They would rather be coddled through or have instant gratification. I for one refuse to molly coddle newbies just for the sake of advancing them. If they come to me and say,"Hey I'm having trouble with this mission can you teach me a better build and help me do it?" I will happily help them out, but the fact of the matter is they don't do that. They want a run or they want an easy way out and I am not going to provide that for them. Until the newbies start taking some responsibility for their own gameplay experience then I will continue to use Heros and henchmen.

Please re-read the OP, no where in the OP do I even mention Heroes. Nor do I imply that Heroes are to blame. They may in a way have contributed to am already growing problem, but I for one love the Hero system, and think its a wonderful adition to the GW experience!

It has become a common misconception in this thread to assume that I am advocating hand holding and as you put it molly-coddling n00bs, when in fact I am not. I am suggesting that rather than downing PUGs and complaining that they are all sub-par players and not worth your time, that you invest some time in changing that. Help a n00b out, give them a tip or two, let them benefit from your experience...no one says you should have to babysit them...just help 'em out a bit!

And by your own admission you are saying that you are willing to share your wisdom and assist the n00b who seriously wants to become a vet! I dont think we are at odds here, I think you misread or read into my OP that I hate Heroes or blame them for the problems within the commuinty!

This better?

I'll admit I was spamming my own thread just a little (heh) but my intentions were good, I just wanted everyone to get a decent reply and also wanted this thread to stay alive long enough to draw some attention and responses.

Healthy debate can take some legwork to encourage.

Sounds like your guild is pretty idyllic! Great! We need more like it!

My own guild, XoO has a great group of people within it, and at times the Alliance and Guild chats are so full of chatter that I have to turn them off if I want to talk to my team in a mission! This is a great thing because it makes me feel like GW is FAR from empty even when my zone is less than packed!

XoO is always looking for great players, and our only real desire/requirement is that the player be mature and serious about playing GW.

In my defense the mere inclusion of that line of thought constitutes an implicationthat Heros are indeed responsible for the lack of PUG's. That aside, no we aren't at odds. I simly advocate more self tutelage as opposed to people engaging in a mass teaching campaign that will leave many players dependent upon teachers and vets for help in every little thing. I've seen it happen in guilds. I call it Mentor Paralysis. What happens is you get someone who takes a newbie under their wing and shows them the ropes, teaches them about builds and counters and the basic ins and outs of the game. They become competent players, yet they will constantly bug their mentor for help in even the smallest task. It gets to the point where they will stop advancing in the game if they cannot get their mentor's help. Self taught is self confident and self confidence goes a long way towards making a better person both in game and out.