Blood Ritual and the role of the SS Necromancer

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

23 Nov 2006 at 20:36 - 1

Having played the whole game with my necromancer, including countless runs to Fissure of Woe, Underworld and Sorrows Furnace, I think it is fair to say i have a reasonable grasp of the workings of a necro, and an SS in particular. It is also commonly accepted that the role of the SS is a main damage dealer along with an elementalist or minion master. It annoys me therefore when I get eles and monks asking me for Blood Ritual constantly. First of all I think it is a waste of a skill slot. You only get 8 on Guild Wars and there are a lot more than 8 skills i could think of to put in an SS build. I dont mind sacreficing one skill slot for Res Sig because it can save entire parties from failure.

I believe Blood Ritual however is a mere accessory that lazy monks and lazy elementalists have got used to something which is nice and convenient but is not needed. I accept the need for it in a Barrage Party, but the order necro is a blood necro. Spiteful Spirit is a Curses attribute spell. Why i should waste points in blood magic to look after other peoples energy in a mission party of FoW, or even UW, is beyond me.

I understand the arguement for BR, it supports team mates and can save a bonder from losing their bonds, but if you cannot maintain your own energy, weather youre an elementalist or monk or any other profession, you lack an essential skill. That being energy management.

Renegade26

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

23 Nov 2006 at 20:54 - 2

You're only playing SS because other ppl in FoW and UW tell you to. Use another elite and try and out you're own builds. If you're using a blood build and you want to give BR to other characters then do. But they only get 1 energy per second it lasts, and really isn't that great. Tell them to take energy tap, or something as simple as that, it's not youre job to deal with their energy.

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

23 Nov 2006 at 22:42 - 3

"I dont mind sacreficing one skill slot for Res Sig because it can save entire parties from failure."

Then you shouldn't mind bringing BR for the monks only. If I bring BR, it's for the monks, all other classes better adjust their builds so they don't drain their energy so fast. If any other class besides the monk needs energy, it can wait. Just remember that even the best monks run out of energy and there's plenty of occasions where they'll get put under alot of pressure. Rangers got expertise, ele's got attunements, necs got soul reaping.......monks would need to spread out their attribute points and bring energy-gain skills which arn't always reliable. You don't need to put points into blood for BR, it's only a 2sec recharge.

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

E/Mo

23 Nov 2006 at 22:54 - 4

Warriors should be the main damage dealers. And I can't think of that many skills that are crucial for an ss necro that they can't sacrifice something for their monks.

If any ele asks for a BR he should be kicked.

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

23 Nov 2006 at 23:09 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

monks would need to spread out their attribute points and bring energy-gain skills which arn't always reliable. Energy management isn't the elite skill that gives you energy.

On topic though, I completely agree with the OP. If a Monk wants me to bring BR for him, he can go to buggery. He should learn to manage his own energy, if he can't do that, why should I change my build so not only am I managing my energy, but his as well?

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

24 Nov 2006 at 11:53 - 6

I dont only use SS because parties tell me to, i happen to think it is a very good Curse, the most powerful hex spell in the game in my opinion. There isnt another damage dealing necro elite that i would change it for.

Monks dont necessarily get put under a lot of pressure. Lets take a 5 man FoW party for instance. The warrior should be buffed up enough to take a lot of damage and he should be able to group and collect aggro. Then the casters move in and hit the enemies, without taking aggro. The monk should not have a lot of work to do if the other party memebers dont put themselves in danger. Its when the enemies get into your back lines and start screwing things up that monks get put under pressure. A good team will not allow enemies into their back lines.

Also, monks can be efficient with their energy. As well as my SS I have a monk with over 2 mil exp and much of that came from healing. I believe 5 energy quick recharge healing skills are the best. a) because they only cost 5 energy and b) because they can often be very powerful. Dwaynas Kiss in FoW heals for over 200 on many occasions as does Word of Healing. I use Orison and Healing Touch for self healing. I try to stay away from 10-15 energy heals as your energy can quickly evaporate. I do bring heal area to FoW and Heal Party to Tombs. As well as Healing Breeze always. I only use these however if i have a lot of energy and the team is grouped (heal area) has taken a hit such as E surge or wurm siege (heal party) or has big degen/being attacked constantly (healing breeze).

The reason i chose res sig over BR any day. What if the healer dies in combat? The bonder cant use rebirth he will lose bonds. The tank is probably or should be busy and the ele is usually short on energy or casting spells. A Curse, or hex is something cast on the enemy with a lasting effect so the necromancer spends a lot of his time waiting for his skills to recharge. He has a few seconds to spare to use res sig which could save the party.

Hidden Prayers

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

24 Nov 2006 at 12:34 - 7

I personally think that this kind of logic is silly.

If you're joining a PUG, you should not expect to be dealing with people who know how to manage their energy effectively. If I deal with PUGs I bring BR because I don't expect much out of them.

I figure that if I want the run to be successful I have to support my teammates as well as play my role in the team. If that means sacrificing a skill slot and reducing my effectiveness then so be it. As long as my most necessary skills are being used and I'm not forced to change my build's intent then I'm fine.

Now if I'm running in a guild group or with friends who I know know what they're doing, then I don't assume that they will need extra energy or other support and I can focus on what I'm meant to do: deal damage and cause havoc

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

24 Nov 2006 at 13:08 - 8

I agree that random teams arent co ordinated and often do need support. but it just annoys me that I should be the energy bitch!! I dont bring BR if i can help it.

Pick Me

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Thornill, ON, Canada

THE CANUCK MONKS (TCM)

W/R

24 Nov 2006 at 13:53 - 9

As a SS Necro/Mesmer, I will ask the PUG if they need me to bring BR. If they say no, then I know I'm in a good PUG.

If they say yes, then I'll bring it, as it really doesn't matter to me, since I can steal energy, soul reap, and heal myself easily enough through any battle. I damage deal and help support my team.

Honestly, if an elementalist asks for an energy boost, he/she has only asked that of me after a battle. I'm happy to ablige, since I can't just sit around and wait for them to recover energy on their own.

romeus petrus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2006

Urgoz Warren

Legion of Doom [LOD] Home of PWNZILLA http://PWNZILLA.guildlaunch.com

24 Nov 2006 at 19:29 - 10

I run a N/Me build in FoW with reckless haste and MoP. I usually give the team a choice between a rez sig or BR. And you're absolutely right 90% of the times they would pick BR. I honestly prefer to bring BR to support the monks than to bring a rez sig that I may use just once (or not at all).

For the poster who stated that warriors are the main damage dealers, I say you obviously haven't played an SS/MoP necro before and watched high dmg numbers fly rapidly over almost every enemy in the mob. I can't think of anything that can beat the dmg output from a correctly placed SS in the right setting, even after the new update "nerf".

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

25 Nov 2006 at 00:28 - 11

ok whats a PUG and whats MoP. Im not a noob, but there so many abbreviations....

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

25 Nov 2006 at 03:53 - 12

PuG = Pick up Group, which is any random group you'll be in on a mission or the like.

MoP = Mark of Pain, a spell in the necro curses line.

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

26 Nov 2006 at 13:45 - 13

Glints Bane

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I sleep

The Almond Brothers [Bros]

26 Nov 2006 at 21:08 - 14

Ok I've been doing SS for a long time and i mean a long time! I've done sorrows furnace farms I've done UW and FoW and More elite places and when a monk asks me to bring me BR i do, no questions! Because that monk is the only thing keeping our group alive! Necro gives Monk energy and Monk gives all LIFE! When I run a SS build I only NEED around 5 skills(Arcane Echo, SS, Reckless Haste, Spinal shivers, Res sig). That leaves me with 3 skill slots to mess around with and bring different skills( one of which is BR if monk wants it). Now you say when you monk you dont need it but I know when I play with my monk I can use it sometimes in hot spots. So with that said I will continue to use BR and when a monk asks for it you should bring it also!

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

26 Nov 2006 at 22:13 - 15

You shouldnt use reckless haste in a regular SS build. Its a waste of energy which could be spent on more potent damage dealing spells or useful self heals.
I admit occasionally when im healing there are tights spots, but that is the fault of the team for putting themselves in danger. Not many people will understand this, but a barrage party in tombs could exist and succeed without a healer. As long as everyone does their job well. Monks shouldnt get into trouble as long as all the team are doing their own job properly.
I hate nothing more than making up for the inadequacies of others and at the same time compremising my own potential.

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

27 Nov 2006 at 05:05 - 16

You guys really gotta remember that not all monks are......smart at bein one

"Glf monk to start! 7/8" Is possibly the most typed out message when it comes to pugs, but everyone seems to forget that a real monk can easily be worse than a hench monk. I prefer hench monks myself almost all the time.

If you team with a monk you've don't even know, be ready for anything, and that applies to all players in any pug

Everyone is expected to bring rez pretty much everywhere.....necros happen to have the gift of a lil blood-giving to help prevent use of that rez sig. Be glad you got it....I know my nec is

AuraofMana

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Georgia, US

28 Nov 2006 at 05:29 - 17

Quote:

Seconded.

Quote:

If any ele asks for a BR he should be kicked.

Go play an Ele and see if you can keep your energy up even with 16 in Storage.

Quote: I dont only use SS because parties tell me to, i happen to think it is a very good Curse, the most powerful hex spell in the game in my opinion. There isnt another damage dealing necro elite that i would change it for. It WAS the most powerful hex spell in the game.

Quote: Monks dont necessarily get put under a lot of pressure Obviously never monked.

Quote: A good team will not allow enemies into their back lines. Tell that to the aggro AI and its evil "find soft target" ness.

Quote: The reason i chose res sig over BR any day. What if the healer dies in combat What if the monster won't die because your ele has no energy left, and then it goes up and kills your monk, and then your whole party gets owned?

Quote: He has a few seconds to spare to use res sig which could save the party. If you are in the middle of a battle and your monk DIEs, and you are sitting there waiting to use all your skills before rezzing the Monk, I don't think all these trips and game experiences you had taught you anything important yet.

Quote: I agree that random teams arent co ordinated and often do need support You people that whine about PUGs, how about you actually COORDINATE with them before you leave for quest/mission? You know it's easier to say a few words or ask them what they are running and telling them to Ctrl + Click Skill Bar than to whine about PUGs all day.

Quote:

As a SS Necro/Mesmer, I will ask the PUG if they need me to bring BR. If they say no, then I know I'm in a good PUG.

If they say yes, then I'll bring it, as it really doesn't matter to me, since I can steal energy, soul reap, and heal myself easily enough through any battle. I damage deal and help support my team.

Honestly, if an elementalist asks for an energy boost, he/she has only asked that of me after a battle. I'm happy to ablige, since I can't just sit around and wait for them to recover energy on their own. You are awesome.

Quote:

The only reason I dislike bringing BR is because ive got a monk with over 2 mil exp and i dont need blood ritual when im healing, and i dont expect it when im bonding. My healing build is energy efficient, so i dont see why others cant be energy efficient either. Not everyone plays the same build or is at the same level. You have to assume the worst, that's the reason why you bring Rez in the first place isn't it?

Quote:

You shouldnt use reckless haste in a regular SS build. Its a waste of energy which could be spent on more potent damage dealing spells or useful self heals. Ok.. Reckless Haste not only lessens damage dealt on the tank and w/e the monster hits, it SPEEDS UP THE PROCESS OF KILLING WITH SS. GASP, this means that omg... fight lasts shorter and your monk expends less energy.. and omg your whole party has less chance of getting owned. I don't see how you would use a slot for self-heal (last time I check all the self-heals for Curse sucks, and don't even go to Blood Renewal, it's not reliable enough and Demonic Flesh is.. -.-)... now you would use a slot for a half-assed self-heal instead of more energy for your monk, who, GASP, is the expert in healing in the party.

Quote:

I admit occasionally when im healing there are tights spots, but that is the fault of the team for putting themselves in danger Of course, it's never your fault. The monsters saw me, I didn't aggro!

Quote:

Not many people will understand this, but a barrage party in tombs could exist and succeed without a healer. As long as everyone does their job well. Yes they can, but will everyone do his or her own job? If you believe that so deeply why do you bring Rez?

Quote:

I hate nothing more than making up for the inadequacies of others and at the same time compremising my own potential. Your job is to use SS, and that is IT. BR is your POTENTIAL, but you refuse to use it. Last time I check, I haven't seen a character build that can self-manage energy and health endlessly.
SS = SS + Arcane Echo + Awaken the Blood + SV + gee.. IDK 4 slots left.. throw in a Rez, then Reckless Haste, 2 spots left =/ OMG let's bring a half-assed heal and use Blood Renewal.. heck screw that BLOOD WELL FTW... oo 1 spot left.. BR!

If you are SS, you might as well use Blood Well with your 7~9 Blood Magic. Then use BR so that the Monk can HEAL MORE. Trust me, the monk can heal you better than you can heal yourself.

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

28 Nov 2006 at 18:47 - 18

I dont think you understood, i dont bring "half assed self heals" i bring other skills which deal damage. I dont only use SS, there are plenty of other skills which are hugely effective at dealing damage.

You mentioned the ele not being able to kill a monster and it going and killing the monk. Hang on a minute! Cant necromancers deal damage, or did i just imagine that?!? What if i failed to kill a monster because i was busy casting BR on someone and it went and smashed up a monk?

You talked abot my potential. BR isnt my potential. In my SS build i have 9 points in domination magic and i bring power spike and power leak to FoW for interupting monks. Not only do these interupt but they deal extra damage or take energy. Meteor shower wont interupt every spell. I bring desecrate enchantments for spiking. I bring malaise for energy degen on monks also.
THAT ^ is my potential, not just to cast one hex, but to do all sorts of stuff that annoys the enemies.

Are you telling me that one energy per second on some caster, whos wasted most of it with 10+ energy heals or gone and fireballed the same group of skeletal beserkers that i have SS on, is a reasonable exchange for a skill slot? Regenerating an eles energy in between fights isnt worth one skill slot either.

As for talking before the mission. From now on, maybe ill kick a monk if his skill bar reads something along the lines of heal other, heal area, heal party, healing breeze.......

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

28 Nov 2006 at 18:55 - 19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

You talked abot my potential. BR isnt my potential. In my SS build i have 9 points in domination magic and i bring power spike and power leak to FoW for interupting monks. Not only do these interupt but they deal extra damage or take energy. Meteor shower wont interupt every spell. I bring desecrate enchantments for spiking. I bring malaise for energy degen on monks also.

THAT ^ is my potential, not just to cast one hex, but to do all sorts of stuff that annoys the enemies. This is the key to your thread...

The question you need to ask yourself is - what is more valuable to your party? Interrupting or healing power?

If you are partying with no rangers or mesmers, then I would agree that those additional skills you bring to "annoy" the enemies are valuable and almost essential.

However, when you're partying with sufficient interrupters, many of the skills you've mentioned are basically overkill. Healing support (via BR) is probably a better place for your energy (and focus) to be better spent.

You also have to realize that while you're casting those other skills, that is both energy AND time that you could be using to SS other enemies.

AuraofMana

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Georgia, US

28 Nov 2006 at 20:57 - 20

Quote:

I dont think you understood, i dont bring "half assed self heals" i bring other skills which deal damage.

Here's a problem almost everyone makes - they assume they need at least 50% + of their skill bar dealing damage to be efficient in damage dealing.
When you were using half-assed self heals it was bad enough, now you don't even have that OR anything for the monk.

Quote:

Cant necromancers deal damage

Notice: SS activates when monsters hit you. You don't have Reckless Haste which means the monsters WILL hit you. IDk, is it better for the Ele to nuke them to death before they get to you or the part where you take damage along with them and die killing them?

Quote:

What if i failed to kill a monster because i was busy casting BR on someone and it went and smashed up a monk?

Worse than not even having a chance for the monk to get some energy so he can save your ass.

Quote:

Meteor shower wont interupt every spell.

Nobody said it did.

Quote:

Are you telling me that one energy per second on some caster BR gives 3 energy pip of regen, thats 6 energy per second. Even at lvl 0 Blood Magic it gives 8 seconds, which is enough to replenish the monk's energy decently. So... I thought you played a lot?

Quote: So why does SS bring BR when 2man UW was still popular?

Quote:

ireballed the same group of skeletal beserkers that i have SS on, is a reasonable exchange for a skill slot? What's better: You getting owned and monster dies or monster dies and you stay alive?

Quote:

Regenerating an eles energy in between fights isnt worth one skill slot either. Farming is about having less members and spend short time. Right now you spend most of your time regening energy, pro farmer right there.

Quote:

As for talking before the mission. From now on, maybe ill kick a monk if his skill bar reads something along the lines of heal other, heal area, heal party, healing breeze....... You are completely right, Heal Other suck so much, and Heal Area, not even worth healing... and Heal Party sucks... omg.. I mean who heals massive amount of people at the same time?
Healing Breeze? I don't believe in Degens.

SS + Reckless Haste + Power Spike + Malaise + maybe Enfeeble.. hmm.. 3 skill slots left?
SS's job is to SS, not to spam hexes on enemies. Do your job and support the monks. You don't see MM going in the front line and using a sword because they can.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

28 Nov 2006 at 21:25 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Go play an Ele and see if you can keep your energy up even with 16 in Storage.
.........

Obviously never monked.

...........

Any competant elementalist should be able to keep at full, or close to full energy, unless you just went up against a hard boss and they were forced to spam Gale. If you can't keep your energy up, guess what? You need to take some ENERGY MANGEMENT!
They will never realize just how worthless they are if you bring BR.
Elementalist and monk players both seem to have this problem, where they just can't get it into their heads that energy management will strengthen their build.

As for the monking comment, I can tell you that I've been playing my monk for 17 months, and the majority of the time in PvE I am *not* under stress. When I am, it's due to a lack of competancy in my team, to the extreme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

BR gives 3 energy pip of regen, thats 6 energy per second. Even at lvl 0 Blood Magic it gives 8 seconds, which is enough to replenish the monk's energy decently. So... I thought you played a lot? 3 pips of *energy regen* is equal to .33333~*3= 1 energy per second. At 8 seconds, 8*1= 8, over time the course of 8 seconds. It's very close to worthless.

Ensign must shudder at all the terrible math in these forums lately.

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

29 Nov 2006 at 12:47 - 22

Jesh, pretty much said everything i was going to say. Thanks!

At least theres someone out there with sense who thinks along the same lines as me.

Also, the focus was never on me dying, I manage to keep myself out of trouble as much as i can. It was on the monk and ele not managing their energy properly. As this guy ^ says, not being able to manage your energy is an attribute of noobishness. I might be an SS necro, but whats the point of me just doing that?!?! I have POTENTIAL, which far outstrips the benefit from Blood Ritual. SS necros are there to deal damage. My build is focused on damage dealing, i do it well.

One last point! "do your job and support your monks?!?!" It isnt my job to support noobish monks! Its my job to damage deal!

AuraofMana

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

Georgia, US

29 Nov 2006 at 20:18 - 23

Quote:

Any competant elementalist should be able to keep at full, or close to full energy

Tell that to the chain echo nuker on Meteor Shower.

Quote: It's very close to worthless.

Quote:

Its my job to damage deal!

My build is focused on damage dealing, i do it well. O snap, my Warrior is concentrated on damage dealing too! But that doesn't stop me from bringing Watch Yourself! for the party.

Quote:

Elementalist and monk players both seem to have this problem, where they just can't get it into their heads that energy management will strengthen their build. I agree they all need energy management, but the thing is:
1. No one lasts forever, and heck, long fights happen.
2. Your allies can get spiked and most monks only bring Healing Spells (which is retarded because PS is one of the best spell ever)
3. SS doesn't need that many skills to be efficient, so why not BRING BR?

Again, I will repeat: If you are so confident in your team, why the hell do you bring Rez? Your job is to deal damage right? Your team should take care of itself right? Why Rez then?

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

29 Nov 2006 at 23:36 - 24

Dont get me started on 2 man Underworld. I was a 100% reliable 55hp monk. And every time a necro cast BR on me, i would shudder in disgust! I decent 55monk doesnt need BR!

Also, have you ever compared the damage output of a warrior, and the damage output of an SS necromancer? You dont bring "watch yourself" for the party, its an armor buff for yourself as much as anyone else. If it only buffed you for the same ammount of adrenaline, youd still use it.

I acknowledge that in a barrage party, the order necro should BR the monk. Its necessary when the others are getting hit, theres no bonder and theyre taking a lot of damage. The monk does get put under pressure. In a 5 man FoW team though, give me a break. If the tank holds aggro properly, the casters let him get aggro before running in, and he his built to take a lot of abuse, then the monk shouldnt get into trouble and shouldnt need Blood Ritual...which lest we forget, gives a mere 1 energy per second. hardly a life saver whereas res sig is!!

Also to answer the point about why bring res sig if im confident in my party? What use is blood ritual, if someones dead? And being dead is worse than having no energy. When im healing, and i run out of energy, i run away and prepare to ressurect the party to full when the enemies retreat. When im a SS and the healer dies, i res sig him in combat, and the fight continues.

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

30 Nov 2006 at 00:37 - 25

Um, could we stop acting like every Pve monk is experienced and has trained to be a pro monk for so long? Btw, don't compare 55'ing to the average Pug in a mission, it's a completely different situation. One involves a random monk that you invited into the party cause you're expecting him to heal. The other involves a farming session where the monk is a tank.

[QUOTE=Phoenix Sebolta]If the tank holds aggro properly, the casters let him get aggro before running in, and he his built to take a lot of abuse, then the monk shouldnt get into trouble and shouldnt need Blood RitualQUOTE]

lol, I think we'd all love it so much if that actually happened in pve. You're dreaming, were talkin pve, things could and will go wrong, and sometimes horribly wrong, which isn't uncommon at all.

You sound like you're teaming with guildies, and if you are, then sure leave BR out of your skillbar since you know you might not need it. Again, teaming with a monk you've never met, is very different. I hope we all know that each profession has tons of people who have no clue at all on what builds or skills to use. When it's a monk that happens to be that "newb" (not to be confused with "noob", as you said), then things could go wrong. Any inexperienced monk will want, and might even "need" BR.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

30 Nov 2006 at 08:50 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Tell that to the chain echo nuker on Meteor Shower.

The only thing I'll be telling them is "Bye loser", shortly before I kick them from the group once I ask them to ping their skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

You sound like you're teaming with guildies, and if you are, then sure leave BR out of your skillbar since you know you might not need it. Again, teaming with a monk you've never met, is very different. I hope we all know that each profession has tons of people who have no clue at all on what builds or skills to use. When it's a monk that happens to be that "newb" (not to be confused with "noob", as you said), then things could go wrong. Any inexperienced monk will want, and might even "need" BR. I agree with you, Cathode.. like Ensign said recently, Guild Wars is full of those people who missed the short bus in the morning. I need to start making a scrap book of his quotes.
As for taking BR on an SS necro? Well that would involve branching into Blood Magic, but I could see taking it at low levels to benefit the potentially horrible monk. Sometimes I feel the need to compensate for other's inadiquacies, and other times I'm just in the mood to laugh as everyone wipes. I never said I WOULDN'T take it, I just said that it's stupid not to have energy management.
Which it is.

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

30 Nov 2006 at 14:15 - 27

Fair point, there are plenty of crappy monks out there. Most of the problem ive noted though, is not that theyre badly built, but theyre just slow with the heals.

i guess its fair to say it isnt an SS's job to energy manage for the team, but if it means keeping noobish monks going, maybe its necessary.

Absolutely drop it with a decent team, but in a PuG, not much can be expected...

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

30 Nov 2006 at 15:27 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

If any ele asks for a BR he should be kicked.

Well said. I have played ele since I started and Ele is my first, and favourite character. It astonishes me how many elementalists spam their energy during missions when it gets low. What? You're primary is ENERGY STORAGE...you should NEVER need Br with one exception. As I see it, the only time an ele should need br is if they are ressed mid-battle and need to regain energy fast. If you're with a good enough team noone should die anyway.

But this happened to me today when I was playing as ele. Some other ele spammed "My energy is 9 of 102!" to which I replied "My energy is 75 of 89!". It is in no way hard to look after you're energy as an ele so yes, Eles should never need BR when they have so many energy storage skills, attunements and glyphs. Funnily enough that same ele then told me I should use Water Trident to interrupt. Riiiight.

When I play necro I usually take BR on missions and then I only give it to Monks. Generally most monks seem grateful and thank you for it, which is nice. The thing is, if you want a healer with energy management, you don't go for a Monk...you go for a Ritualist. Most monk straight-up heals, even with Divine Favor, barely out-do Ritualist heals. Ritualists have the added bonus of having good energy management skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Go play an Ele and see if you can keep your energy up even with 16 in Storage. I have 13 in energy storage. When I go water I have maybe 10 in energy storage. I play all attributes, except fire, regularly and energy has never been a problem. Like I say, unless the ele has just been ressed there should be no need at all for them to need br.

aubee

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

30 Nov 2006 at 17:22 - 29

It may sound harsh, but I don't think an SS necro should be expected to bring BR. And anybody expecting or needing it may be someone you don't really want to be in a group with. If there is some special circumstance like an area of fairly heavy energy drain or denial then it might be okay to bring to use in a pinch. And it's certainly okay if you have a free slot and just *want* to bring it to make it a little easier on monks. But nobody, including monks, should *need* it. Everyone should be able to manage their own energy requirements. If one can't, then either the build is defective or the player doesn't know what he is doing.

Personally I'd rather take a hero or hench healer than a player healer who "needs" BR. I play mainly a WoH monk when I'm monking and occasionally a boon prot (so I can't speak for other monk builds) and I have *very* rarely run into energy problems. And those rare occasions were all due to either a defective team build or inexperienced play.

As for ele nukers asking for BR, just don't get in a party with one if you are SSing. SS nuking and echo meteor shower nuking (for example) don't coordinate well together anyway in my experience as the knockdowns slow down the damage from SS. Same for a smiting monk using SoJ (not that you run into that very often). Given the choice, take a different player over an ele nuker if you are SSing.

And even if you do take an ele, again they should be able to manage their own energy. Even a searing flames/glowing gaze spamming build can pour out lots of damage while managing energy very nicely, so it can be done. Even arcane echoing meteor shower, I have only rarely run into energy problems with my ele. I agree with a previous poster who said an ele asking for BR should be kicked. Even our heroes can manage their own energy, so shouldn't we expect real live players to do so as well? How would someone playing an ele feel if you asked them to change their secondary to necro and bring BR for you? They'd probably make some of the same arguments against it that have been made here.

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

30 Nov 2006 at 17:38 - 30

Hella Good

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Oct 2005

None, free and clear

30 Nov 2006 at 18:50 - 31

@OP:

Hmm, then why should Paragons bother with support skills? Why should Rits bother with support skills? Why should Monks bother healing? You see where this is going? GW is a team effort. If you only wanna echo your SS and eat popcorn while everyone else is struggling, then I feel you pain. *rolls eyes*

My main character is a Necro and I've run it all. And if some1 on the team has a valid concern that I can help with, I have always made room. What's there about SS? Do you actually need anything more than Arcane Echo and SS? You suddenly run outta like 6 slots on your build? How did that happen?

Now think what a Mo has to get. Cond removal, hex removal, fast heal, major heal, back-up heal, etc...

As for SS being the most powerful hex in the game, it never was. It's big overhype. How does SS beat MoP when the target gets hit by a volly of 10 Fiends beats me... SS never came any close to that kinda DPS, it's DIMENSIONS above and beyound it. Heck, even with scatter MoP beats SS. It just requires brains. And we don't like brains. We like spamming echo SS and eating popcorn.

aubee

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

30 Nov 2006 at 18:56 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

Regarding the point you made about eles and SS co oirdinating badly, thats not quite the case. For a 5 man FoW party to work, the 2 damage dealers have to co ordinate. Its no good casting SS on a group of warriors, then the ele coming and nuking them.

Nukes work best on the casters!! Meteor shower is affected by armor level, SS isnt. True, but (assuming I understand your point) instead of an ele nuker you can take a dedicated interrupter to shut down enemy eles and just let the necro nuke them with SS as well. SS works fine on casters too. But admittedly my experience SSing alongside an ele has been mostly in the UW as opposed to FOW. It definitely slowed down the killing there. Probably because of (as you mention) the the high armor level of the aatxes. And this was before the AI updates for NF as well...

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

30 Nov 2006 at 22:22 - 33

If a monk I know asks me to bring BR, then I will, say for an Alliance PUG. But in that situation the monk is typically a much higher caliber monk than your average PUG monk, and BR will be used as an emergency reserve only. And the monk will be calling his energy BEFORE he runs out!!!!!!

If I join a normal PUG and they ask for BR, I get a badddd feeling.

The entire problem with a BR necro is that PUGS depend on them entirely. BR becomes a crutch that simply proliferates poor game play and cultivates the attitude that BR necs are there for you rather than being there because they bring other skills.

I will leave the group if an Ele asks for BR. If the Ele runs dry, he can watch as the Necro and Warrior take that boss down without him. That's usually enough of an ego blow to get an Ele to respec with E-management.

Here is another problem with how people play with battery necros: CALL YOUR ENERGY LONG BEFORE YOU RUN OUT!!!!

If you get to less than 10 energy before you call, and you have no E-management, then you are a terrible player. Period. Honestly, if a Monk or Ele get themselves in this situation, do you really think BR (or even BiP) is really gonna help? Maybe in the short term, but sooner or later, they'll bite off more that they can chew....and then blame everyone else.

BR is used 99% of the time to cover up poor gameplay style, to make bad Ele's and Monks look better. That's why necro's don't like running it, plain and simple. It makes ME responsible for YOUR actions, and there are alternatives.

For example:
YOU could run Blood and take Offering.

YOU could run Inspiration and take MoR (or a dozen other Insp skills)

You could bond the tank.

You could choose better skills. Ele's are NOT required to take the 8 skills with the biggest numbers on them. Try understanding the gameplay dynamics, I know, that's crazy talk.

Monks are NOT required to spend all their energy on a lost cause. Be aware of the battlefield. Sometimes people just need to be allowed to die because the cost of keeping them alive endangers everyone else.

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

01 Dec 2006 at 13:45 - 34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood
BR is used 99% of the time to cover up poor gameplay style, to make bad Ele's and Monks look better. That's why necro's don't like running it, plain and simple. It makes ME responsible for YOUR actions, and there are alternatives. That is the crux of my whole argument!! Thank you!

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

01 Dec 2006 at 13:50 - 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hella Good
@OP:
What's there about SS? Do you actually need anything more than Arcane Echo and SS? You suddenly run outta like 6 slots on your build? How did that happen?...........

We like spamming echo SS and eating popcorn. If you only use arcane echo and Spiteful Spirit, and moreover you think I do the same, not only are you a noob, youve not read the whole of this thread. Of course you need more than echo/SS thats been discussed in this thread.

Mark of Pain only works if the tank attacks the enemy with MoP on it. And lest we forget, he can only attack one enemy at a time (discounting triple shop, cyclone axe, hundred blades etc). MoP works for physical damage only. Thats bows and melee. How could that compete with a group of 6 warriors, and SS on 3 of them. youve obviously never played an SS, or you have, just very very wrongly.

Pick Me

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Thornill, ON, Canada

THE CANUCK MONKS (TCM)

W/R

01 Dec 2006 at 15:10 - 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta
If you only use arcane echo and Spiteful Spirit, and moreover you think I do the same, not only are you a noob, youve not read the whole of this thread. Of course you need more than echo/SS thats been discussed in this thread.

Mark of Pain only works if the tank attacks the enemy with MoP on it. And lest we forget, he can only attack one enemy at a time (discounting triple shop, cyclone axe, hundred blades etc). MoP works for physical damage only. Thats bows and melee. How could that compete with a group of 6 warriors, and SS on 3 of them. youve obviously never played an SS, or you have, just very very wrongly.

Did you read Hella Goods' post????

If not, let me re-quote him:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

As for SS being the most powerful hex in the game, it never was. It's big overhype. How does SS beat MoP when the target gets hit by a volly of 10 Fiends beats me... SS never came any close to that kinda DPS, it's DIMENSIONS above and beyound it. Heck, even with scatter MoP beats SS. It just requires brains. I love SS and have never really used MoP, but from what I've seen and heard, Hella Good makes a valid point. Especially with the new AI mentality.

Emik

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

Belgium

[FaRM] Farm For The Win

01 Dec 2006 at 15:11 - 37

IMO Archane Echo is a bit of a half assed skill.
Ok good result but too high a cost to make it do it's job 'good'
One SS is most of the time enuff to finish it off.
I've recently change from SS to a permanent SV build becoz it's
1. faster in recharge
2. lower casting cost
3. triggers with anything that they doas long as the enemy's health is higher than yours
4. lowers the enemy's health very fast to then be finished off just by pounding away.

Mobs die instantly and it's funny to watch.
Was doing a quest in The Mirror of Lyss and whiped out a group of 40+ Margonites in less than 2 minutes.

Since the AI is a bit shabby lately i've never taken SS anymore.
Ok i put it on my MoW when i bring him but i let him be N/Me with interupts, so no AE in the build.

Phoenix Sebolta

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Rising Army

W/Mo

01 Dec 2006 at 15:26 - 38

To be fair though. One SS is 37 damage to all enemies in the group. Echo it, and its 74 damage to all enemies in the group. cast again and its 111 damage....
You see where im going. It does double the damage of the hex, and can quadrouple it if the enemies dont scatter. because of this, it halves the time taken to kill the group. This is essential in 2 man UW to reduce farming time and helps greatly to reduce the burden on the party in a 5 man FoW group.

To answer that earlier point. Im talking broadly in context of 5 man FoW parties, as that is what ive been doing a lot of recently. In that instance, the only physical damage output is the tanks, and he can only attack one enemy at a time. Im sure if a target was called in another situation and a bunch of rangers attacked it, yes the damage output of Mark of Pain would be considerable. SS in my opinion is a more versatile, less reliant hex.

jesh

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

San Diego, CA

Penguin Village

Mo/

02 Dec 2006 at 02:07 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

Mark of Pain only works if the tank attacks the enemy with MoP on it. And lest we forget, he can only attack one enemy at a time (discounting triple shop, cyclone axe, hundred blades etc). MoP works for physical damage only. Thats bows and melee. How could that compete with a group of 6 warriors, and SS on 3 of them. youve obviously never played an SS, or you have, just very very wrongly. I have played SS, and I can tell you that just my warrior running MoP can probably kill as fast if not faster. If other people decide to hit the target I call, that's just extra damage. I have had literally the top half of my screen entirely covered in 30s, and that is a frequent, normal experience, not something that happens when you hex just the right guys.
You guys are forgetting key things, probably because all you do is run SS.

1. Weapon classes have a thing called IAS skills.
2. Weapon classes have skills that hit twice.
3. Some of these can be spammed.

P.S. MoP works great with mindless barragers, they don't even have to think about hitting the target I call.

P.P.S Henchies and heroes will attack your called target 90% of the time.

Thom Bangalter

Grindin'

Join Date: Dec 2005

E/Mo

02 Dec 2006 at 04:10 - 40

The thing is, necros are utility characters that fill very specific roles in a team; Unless they're a minion master, in which case they're very effective for pugs. The thing Necros are best at is allowing really crappy teams to actually beat the game. Your warriors are retards and bring 6 stances and cyclone axe? SS. Your monks are chimps that spam heal party until they're out of energy? Blood rit, any skill that causes aoe weakness. For some random mission, if a team is good you'll wind up playing MM or just getting passed over for something more effective, because SS<Decent Warrior. This is not to say that Necros are not a fleshed out class, but the overall usefulness of them is limited in pve beyond a few standard templates, only one of which will contribute to a good team.

Another thing I need to address: anyone that plays echo+meteor shower, or plays ele and pings for blood rit, or runs 16 energy storage, needs to uninstall.