Days of PUGS Gone ?

I'm a true PuG monk,

Haven't done a single mission in prophecies without real players
Haven't done a single mission in factions without real players
Haven't done a single mission so far in nightfall without real players

All of these were PuGs. And no matter how bad some of these were I will never ever do a mission with henchies or heroes. It's just sooo boring, this game is a MORPG, multiplayer. If I can't find a party for the mission I'll just do some RA, FoW or take a break from GW. I'll come back the next day and check again. I spend 6 days waiting for a party in the Harvest Temple mission from factions, never even thought about doing it with henchies.

Even if all the henchies were just like the ultimate team build and played good but not perfect so that it still was a challenge. I wouldn't dream of doing anything but random quests with them.

Aye. QFT.
I took my second account, the one i couldn't get Nightfall for and switched it to America. There are actually people in the districts and some of them even talk :O
Euro is a ghost server, it seems everyone hates each other and is to the point of ignoring everyone else. Apart from my GF and a few guildies now and then i wasn't able to play with other human players no matter how hard i tried (even on my monk). The most i could get (after a week or two after the release) were teams with max one other player on it. And that seems to be the new PUG.
It's perfectly reasonable, PUGs are often a Nightmare but heck, i play an onlinegame. For a single player game Nightfall has nowhere near enough good content to keep up with the powerhouses in the SP Realm. Sorry.

Antheus, your entire post resonates!

Personally, I do NOT show my skillbar although I may voluntarilly tell the team I'm bringing certain skills I think particularly useful or unusual. Why do I not? Two reasons, actually. 1) I don't run 'cookie cutters' but I have worked out skill sets that work best for me and seem to be every bit as effective at getting the job done and 2) I haven't figured out how to toggle the skillset (no, no, don't tell me, I want to stay blissful in my ignorance !)

People should not feel forced to bring certain skills or they can't be part of a PuG. My NF ranger is just that, NF only and as such does not have Winter. (Sure I could go to LA and buy it and may yet.) So when she PuGed for Rilohn Refuge (she'd already reached the Boss with just heros/henches before falling), she told the group she didn't have Winter, and neither did anyone else. Instead of ranting at her, the group reassessed skills, talked strategy, etc. and decided to give it a go anyhow. Guess what.......our group clinched Masters with very little difficulty because we played together with strong teamwork!

As long as there are people who approach things like that group (and I've met several now, thank the gods!), PuGs will still exist.

I am casual player, dont like the grind/solo-farm/heroway'ing thing, and i have no problems with finding PuGs. And thats in the EU-districts...

It might be because i'm a conformist, as i only play very PuG-friendly characters (W/M/N,sometimes ranger or ele) with PuG-builds, or it just might be my luck.

I play with a skillset that suits my style and/or whims but rarely get any complains... But when i do its usually from someone named "I pwnz noobz" or some such name, if u know what i mean.

As an of course i follow MOST of Antehus guidelines, not all but most, and if all PUGGERS did it that way the game would, more often that not, become much more enjoyable.

Being a stupid hick Dane myself, I also often go to other districts, and either advertise for a group or see if anyone is, just because its always fun to play with the frogs, krauts, spicks or just plain mad euro-dudes!

(anyone offended by the national slurs should disregard the nicknames for other europeans, they are used in a friendly, loving way as we are all stupid, n00b europeans!!)

Have fun, PuG-up and GO PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS!!

/regards,

The St00pid n00b Dane

I've just finished Nightfall, not only without ever grouping with another human being but also without even typing anything into the chat window.

The only thing that makes me wonder, is why this game still requires internet connection to play...

Touche'

We had a 20+ page thread on this very subject, but this is the crux of what I find wrong with heroes.

The game is simply gravitating (PvE-wise, at least) to a single-player game.

Whether that is the fault of PuGs or the fact that heroes aggravate that problem is up to debate, but the end effect is what you're noticing above.

That's not a good thing for Guild Wars, IMO, which is meant to be a multiplayer game at heart.

Multi-player = playing with other people. I don't understand people who buy a multi-player game so they can solo it.

I don't have a large guild, so I have henched a lot of quests over three chapters. I have henched exploration and skill capping. I have henched chest running. So I accomplished all my goals so far, but it tends to be very boring.

I've had to hench some missions due to bad schedule. Just beating the mission did not compare to beating it with a group of players. A first time through masters with a slightly off-balance group is the best fun in the game.
I think it's the thrill of beating the odds.

I've had "leet" warriors tell my ranger to do the pulling as they don't use a bow. I've been asked when my mesmer is going to start doing something. I've played with MMs who forgot to reset their attributes (learned to always ask if this has been done after a skills reset by any prof) and ran with level 5 minions.

I've forgotten my rez sig and didn't get kicked when we had to restart. I've been told I'm a great interrupter (just average) or tank (yes). I've taught numerous players the value of having a mesmer in your group. I've learned new skill combos. I've met a wide variety of people.

Do it all with henchmen? I would miss the fun and the agony.

I agree, but why would Anet crush solo farming then?

They are crushing solo-farming in an effort to repair the GW economy. Whether their approach is actually effective is questionable. Either way, it has nothing to do with PvE being single- or multi-player.

My own theory is that as players become better and more experienced, they are less inclined to PuG. They have already developed most of the skills they need to succeed in the game, and having already done mission X on lots of other characters, they are more likely to just want to finish the mission as fast as possible on their new character and move on. I believe people in stable guilds and/or with big flists are less likely to PuG as well, since they already have a solid network of people to play and socialize with. In short, the longer you have played, the more likely it is that the negative sides of PuGing will outweigh the positives. At that point, people either hero-hench/guild/friend-team, or they quit.

The idea of learning from PuG experiences is somewhat dubious, considering that many good players simply aren't available as part of the PuG player pool. Solid learning is primarily going to come from using your brain and figuring it out on your own, or reading fansites for information.

I've had those same 'leet' warriors tell me (as ranger) to pull -- then they run ahead and aggro as I'm trying to do just that!

I've been in groups where a warrior is trying a new weapon/different build and finds out they've forgotten to reset their attributes and are running around trying to use axe skills with a sword (or whatever) doing about 2 dmg . On the flipside of that, I've been trying to reset my own skills (usually from MM to Curses) when the party leader gets froggy and launches the mission (after I've said to please hold).

Oh, and one of my favorites: my monk was asked once if she was actually doing anything. At the time, the group was working together like a well-oiled machine and I was bored (no heals really needed). So, in response, I teased that no, I was bored silly since no one was getting hurt. I'd forgotten to not tempt fate that way! Next thing I know, we're swamped, I'm up to my ears with hurt comrades and throwing out heals like mad -- and we succeeded without death against the odds .

Please, oh please, don't take my PuGs away!

My experience is different. In beginning, I did nothing but henchies.

But the more I learned, the more classes I played, the pvp, high-end missions, the more I realized how noobish the AI really is. It makes the stupidest mistakes: using enchants with mesmer heavy enemies, not running from melee or running too much from melee, not knowing they can tank with PS, yet tanking without any protection, and so on.

It's when you learn more advanced concepts that you realize henchies are simply stupid. The only reason heroes work, is because at present, they allow for some, almost overpowered builds (2 SF nukers and a paragon battery or similar).

It's not really that henchie AI has improved, but they just got access to so many good skills, topped with runes and excellent weapons.

But then again, a wammo with mending is still just that, no matter what runes he has or whether he's wearing FoW. That is what heroes truly are. But yes, they work well for most part, but IMHO require too much micromanagement in more difficult cases.

I have always maintained that the AI is terrible. Part of the challenge of using heroes is figuring out the builds that they will ****up the least.

The sad part is that most GW players are worse. Nevermind heroes, I would much rather have Devona than any of the PuG warriors I've ever played with. Case in point: take a look at guru's warrior forums. There are people who take Defy Pain as their elite skill. Devona, at least, is smart enough not to do that.

Heroes and henchmen work well because they are predictable. Their success or failure depends entirely on the skill of the controlling player(s). Therefore, the better the player you are, the more beneficial it is to you (from a practical standpoint) to not PuG. I know how to beat anything with hero-hench. The random people in town LFG might not. And that is the crux of the issue.

The very fact that heroes and henchmen work well, actually proves that the game requires >>>ZERO<<< skill to play, at least in PvE.

Most Warcraft 3 players should have no trouble defeating up to 3 computer players at once. Why ? Because you can't teach AI to play Warcraft as well as a human.

Surely, some GW players are better than others. But that's only because they have more experience with the game and know how to create more effective builds. But creating builds is not skill, skill is how well you execute the build in combat and if a computer can do it just as well as a human then there's no real skill involved.

Compare these two statements:

I'm not exactly sure what you consider to be 'skill' if being experienced does not qualify.

This is Guild Wars, not Build Wars. Being able to make good builds doesn't make you a good player. It is necessary but *not* sufficient.

We can define "skill" as "something you can't learn from reading the forums". It's like learning to ride a bike, you can't learn it from reading about how it's done, you have to learn it by trial and error.

Knowledge of the game is all you need to succeed in games like Guild Wars, you have to know what kind of build will work and how to use it ingame. But this is not skill. Please don't tell me that one player can be better than the other just because he is better at pressing 8 buttons in a sequence.

I got really sick of real people. Not all of them, but one or two complete idiots drag a group down.

I was at the Gate of Madness with my monk. It took me HOURS to do it with real people. Warriors using Frenzy at Shiro, a Dervish without conviction and spammed pious assault when he had VITAL enchantments on him like Faithful Intervention, Protective Spirit, Aegis, Guardian and Healing Breeze. Well when I pointed it out to him, he kept doing it. I TRIED to explain to him what his mistake was. He said "Sry. Wnt do it agn". What did he do? Spammed it again. Now here's the beauty of it. Because he rejected all the healing that the monks gave him and the protections to stop him dying, it was the MONKS that were at fault. We all got sick of him and left, since he was the only non spell caster and we NEEDED him to go up against Shiro. With him rejecting Protective Spirit? No chance.

So we all left. A few of the competent ones from that group rejoined, including myself. To fill the spaces, I took a few of my guildies. I know their abilities and they are definitely very skilled, like myself. We did the mission without a SINGLE death. In fact, not even the pet died right up until Shiro. Something I couldn't accomplish with hench and heroes, but I could still easily finish the mission with hench and heroes too.

So basically, hench and heroes are great IF you know how to use them. I will admit, you will most likely get masters on nearly every mission first time if you know what you're doing. But I would easily choose a highly skilled group of humans over them any day. Only problem is, it's like a game of Russian Roulette, where 5 out of the 6 chambers are loaded.

You're presenting conflicting statements:
1) In your first post, you state that skill is how well you execute a build (which I agree with), but in this post you say that knowing how to use your build is not skill.

2) Learning to ride a bike, for instance, comes from experience, but from your first post you obviously don't think that experience results in skill - only more knowledge, which you claim is not related to skill.

Let's take your Warcraft 3 example. What is the difference between the "skilled" human player and the dumb AI in an RTS game? The AI is actually better at execution than the human player is, provided it knows what to do. It can control all of its units simultaneously, it doesn't need to scout, its attention is focused everywhere at once, etc. The problem with the AI is that it doesn't have as much knowledge of what to do against varying strategies - it doesn't know how to deal with certain rush tactics, base ganks, etc.

This is kinda funny, I was just thinking to myself yesterday that it might be fun to play through Nightfall with my monk only joining PUGs for missions. At least as a monk, you can totally get away with that.

I think though reading your post that I might try to make the commitment with one char to go through only in PUGs.

Continuing the Warcraft 3 example: everyone who has ever played this game knows that there isn't much difference in tactics used by the regular players and the top-of-the-ladder professionals. So, there has to be something that separates the "pros" from the newbs- skill.

That's the difference between Warcraft and Guild Wars- practice doesn't make you better. The only thing that separates the veteran from a newb is their knowledge of the game. As I've said before, an average battle.net player should have no problems defeating several computer players at once, while people who have just started playing will get owned while battling only one AI player. So, logically a "skilled" Guild Wars player should be able to achieve similar things, for example: he should be able to beat Ring of Fire mission with only 3 henchmen. Can he ?

I don't PUG for the same reason I don't RA - I dislike being in a random group of people whose skill levels will be questionable at best. Sure, there's the occasional good group, but they're somewhat rare. It's not a hard choice to make between guildies and PUGs, when the first is guaranteed to be good and the latter's chances of being decent are slim.

In short, why are PUGs dying out? It's simple, really. People are finding the truth in the statement Guildies/Friends > Heroes/Henches >>> PUGs.

The interesting point here is that, if we go by your assumption that the tactics used by regular players and pros is essentially equal (which I don't agree with, but anyway), the difference between the pro players and the regular players is not at all similar to the difference between pro players and AI. Specifically, the difference between good and bad players is execution, whereas the difference between good players and AI is knowledge. This makes your previous comparison to AI rather curious, since it's now clear that it was irrelevant to the discussion.

Practice does make you better. To claim otherwise means either 1) you haven't played long enough to realize it, or 2) you are simply saying this to be argumentative.

The difference between your average battle.net player and your noob can also be one of knowledge. The noob does not have a solid grasp of game concepts, doesn't understand all of the tactics, doesn't know the strengths and weaknesses of all of the units, doesn't understand efficient resourcing, army positioning, etc.

Your analogy is flawed. You can solo many areas of the game - does it make you skilled? Again, the build is the key in that situation - knowledge - which you've said is not skill.

My feeling here is that we're essentially arguing over semantics. You would like to divide "good playing" into two distinct entities: "knowledge" and "skill", whereas I believe that the two are related.

Why? Consider fighting games. These are widely considered to be games of "skill". This may be true at the intermediate level: the better players are the ones that can execute the combos most consistently, react the fastest to situations, etc. But at the highest levels of play, everyone executes pretty much flawlessly. Execution is no longer the difference. The competition reverts to one of knowledge and experience. Are you familiar with all of the setups and mindgames for this match? Do you know how to escape from certain traps? Do you know all of the counters to all of your opponent's moves and strategies?

More knowledge results in better execution and ultimately better playing. I don't find it useful to try and divide things into being exclusively "knowledge" or "skill".

And in any case, this is all going OT, so I'm going to stop here.

I really prefer to play with others for the most part, but I must admit I am leaning more and more towards using Heroes for most missions. I don't know - the last few PUG's I ran with were insanely bad. I don't just mean unskilled - people not listening to one another - ele who would agro everything and than run back to the group. Yeah - kind of thinking Olias and Koss and Dunkoro would be better.

the only reason i bought NF is for the Heroes. I dont like to play with pugs. The reason i dont play with pugs is that i dont know them, i dont know if they are good or not. maybe they are good, but i dont wanna waste my time knowing them.I dont make friends in mmorph. cuz i dont know who they are in rl so no pugs for me as for Heroes. i know who they are, what skills they got and how they will use their skills. i have complete control over them. and they are always avaiable. Therefore.
IMAO Hero>Pugs. I beat NF with heroes. done all the missions with heroes except gate of madness. I am sorry but i have seen too many bs pugs in game. i got sick of them that is why i prefer heroes over pugs.

I don'd ming playing in a PuG when the PuG is good. This is probably an obvious thing to say but there are two types, there is a good PuG, who sorts things out rationally, has a good attitude towards the game and knows how to fight as part of a team. The second is the type of PuG that doesn't say a word other than "hi", "rdy?" and "gg" (the third is only if we win). I have now stopped going with a PuG who doesn't respond in the mission town. There is NOTHING worse than asking question after question only to be ignored. This, to me, is an indicator as to whether I should stick with them or leave the group and save myself some time.

On the whole I am sorry to say I favour Heroes and Hench but there have certainly been some missions I have done in Nightfall when we have actually had a knowledgeable, astute team leader who directed the team and called targets etc.. This sort of player is who I like to play with...If the team will take anyone (eg. ending up with 5 dervishes all saying "we need 2 m0nkz0rz") or if it looks like the team is going to be made up of Hobos I don't want to know

I'm glad that there are levels to the Mission Rewards; you can typically find a PuG starting for Masters just about everywhere. Furthermore, the game structures for Factions & Nightfall hinder some of the Mission shortcutting that made certain Ch.1 areas (Maguuma) vacant.

Folks that despise PuGs can rationalize that Heroes are more reliable gaming companions. All I know is that I didn't buy GW to study the intricacies of its programmed polygons. Sometimes the less you know, the more you smile.

I've done Ring of Fire with just me and a Monk henchmen (I'm really close to doing it solo), so I'm pretty sure that many skilled players would be able to do so with enough patience.

So, in short..."Yes!"

I don't think that it's a lack of knowledge that annoy people in a PUG, but just out and out stupidity.

Scenario 1: A guy hasn't a clue what to do in the mission. So INSTEAD of charging into a group of enemies, pulling 3 MORE groups of enemies and getting every one KILLED, he asks what to do. The people take the time to help him. They do the mission with a few mistakes, but get through it fine.

Scenario 2: A guy hasn't a clue what he's doing. He pretends he does and states that he's in a rank 20 guild, he's rank 15 and he's been playing the game for 20 years. He runs into a group, dies and rage quits, blaming the monks.

Now when I mention PUG, what is the first one you think of?

I have not been playing GW for very long, and because I do not get to play that often I know I am not very skilled. I am sure I do a lot of stupid things and might not understand all the details of how the game works.

While I have met a lot of players who have been helpful and patient with people like me, there a quite a few who have made finding groups less than enjoyable. I have been spending less time in PUGs mostly because of the headache that many "experienced" players can cause, and finding other people like me can take time.

While I have not had a chance to play NF yet (like I said I don't get to play as often as I like), the idea of Heros seems to be created for the casual gamers like myself who dislike spending time trying to find fun groups.

Was the day of the PUG really ever here? I mean, the chances of getting a PUG that was half way decent are always low. The only PUG I ever felt was worth my time to join was in Abbadon's Gate, less than 72 hours after it came out. Other than that I'll sometimes just accept someone into my group, knowing that one person can't damage my chances for completion of the mission. Other times I've formed PUGs, but I rarely join them (and never feel like we're assured victory, more like we're assured at least one RQ or idler).

I agree. It's a headache to find some good group, without name calling ("noob!") or just aggroing every thing that moves with a fake confidence of a "leet" player. I have a guild that has only people I know in real life, casual players that can play maybe once or two a week and even more. They don't read this forum or guildwiki like me, so they probably will prefer not to join PUGs because they have no knowledge of "inner lingo", and if they did try it - probably felt like fools. It's highly intimidating and not friendly environment. Henchies and heroes sound like perfect solution.

p.s If anyone of you need help, you can PM me when I am online (put me on friends list).

Funny, when I pug, I get occasional bad pugs, but never like the ones people always post, sounding like the exact same story over and over again. Either someones overreacting, or its ego's conflicting. I pugged yesterday to cap some elites, died at first, but we adjusted and it was fine. Worst pug I had STILL beat the mission, and it was 5 of us at Hell's Precipice, one monk had to go, two quit, I was the only monk. Honestly, dont give up on pugs when you have one bad experience.

Really, Id rather play with people than heroes, but since they have been released Ive seen ness lfg's floating around. I miss the social part of this game in pve.

I help out a lot in PvE, but the biggest part that drives me crazy is the lack of communication in the PUG. Just got offline after bringing my rit thru consulate docks. I've done this mission 6 times now (11 chars, moving them all along). I guess people don't understand that when you have two healers (restore rit and a lvl 14 dunk), you don't rush the entire thing. Also, in reference to point one: if you outrun the healers, don't be a sin.

That drives me nuts...no recharge, run from the healers. Grrr....at least I know the heros won't rush it, unless I tell them to.

What's funny is rushing is no longer necessary except in a very small number of Nightfall missions. People got used to it in Factions because of the time limits, but it was annoying then too. I was in a group that got linked with a "masters" tyrian group. Every five seconds one of them was saying "how much time do we have left" (and the Ws were passing monster spawns leaving them to the monks and MMs to have to kill themselves, slowing us down further) etc etc etc. When all was said and done, we got Experts, missed Masters by less than two minutes. I did the calculations and it was the exact amount of time it takes to say "how long?" three hundred and fifty two billion times.

I love PUG's!

I finished and got masters for all 3 NF torment missions w/ the first pug I joined. In the mission before abbadon's we had one young warrior who thought he was being funny by not following instructions.. he tended to die a lot. We monks don't tolerate fools. I'll keep an idiot war alive if he's holding the line and keeping us casters from certain death, but not if he runs off to aggro, or runs away like a coward to watch his teammates go down.

Anyway, a working masters pug almost always requires at least one person who knows the bonuses and which direction to go.
My guild/alliance has repeatedly tried some of the missions only to repeatedly fail because they either don't know where to go, can't agree, or are just don't have the best class combinations.

Even though I'm in a great guild now, I still see most alliance/guild groups as worse than one of your regular pug groups. The thing w/ guild groups is that they're obliged to accept anyone from the guild/alliance who wants to do the mission and so often makes compromises in the party makeup. Then often even the worst or most annoying players are tolerated because they are a guild or alliance member. Fortunately I'm in a good guild now.. whew.. however, I've helped out my guildies countless times to help them finish the torment missions, and they've failed countless times due to confusion, crappy second monks or just general disorganization. It's really no worse than a disorganized pug though. Unfortunately I don't know the missions well enough to tell them which way to go

But pugging-wise, I think it's generally much easier to pug when you're a monk simply because if you're a good monk you can carry even the worst pugs thru to the end.

QFT, I've carried a group through entire missions, although it was quite a chore. Many of these groups had another monk in them, that wasn't even healing themselves well, much less anyone else.

Once I was in a group in the Ring of Fire, we got almost to the end of the back way (the other monk quit at the very begining, possibly err=7'd, back way is such a pain but they wanted to cap, front way is cake) and then they spotted the boss they wanted to cap from... I pinged my energy, because I was running on empty, but of course they ignored me and got themselves killed. Running through Lava despite your monk having no energy + fighting an ele boss = GG

Not much you can do when what is left of your group turns into six Leeroy Jenkins, but I know what you mean about PUGing as a monk. Nevertheless I would rather hero/hench than PUG, because the AI actually listens to you.

I totally disagree with this as I still and will use PuGs during missions and those of you who said they beat it except the last two missions you used a PuGs.I do agree with what gobla said as Monk player my self I don't see the heros doing better than real Monks that are good.The coop missions are designed to train you how to cooperate in GvG match setting it was the HoH as well.That is why you call target set your builds up to match those of the needs of the team eg no P/B Rangers or complete Nukers bring traps and wards.

Monk is the first character to get protector for me.

And we do it my way, or no way.

Then I let the group decide whether they want to kick the monk or listen.

It's a bit annoying, but at least as a monk you're always in demand, and can afford to make a few demands. The upside is, the PUG always gets masters/bonus this way almost guaranteed.

Especially since I find that as monk AI really sucks for killing. For some reason, it's just slow and inneficient, compared to just about any PUG.

The best thing about heroes for me is the fact that you don't have to put up with elitist, egocentric, snot-nosed monks any more.
Monks have enjoyed a priviledged position in this game for far too long now, and it has created an un-even balance of power amongst classes, with monks using threats to maintain control over parties.
Now if I'm leading a PUG, any monk who wants to join had better know their stuff and be polite about it, otherwise they'll be out on their arses.
With all of the skills unlocked, my hero monks perform better than 99.9% of the PUG monks out there. This means I can put together a team fairly quickly without the stress of having to pander to some primadonna in order to get moving.
Utter bliss I tells ya.

the bitching monks started appearing soon after the leeroy warrior ... so consider why monks get angry in the first place before you start calling them primadonnas