I don't call for nerfing things that often, but this spell is absurd.
Unnatural Signet may have been a bit weak as a hard counter to spirit builds, I'll grant that. It was weak to the point that it was hard to justify bringing it, even if you knew your enemy would pack spirits, since you can do nearly as well with Flare.
Spiritual Pain though, is a decent spell even without any spirit boosted effect. It's good enough that it sees use with GoR as a spiking spell, it has made its way onto many domination mesmer's bars as a staple spell and so on. And that's without the vs spirits bonus - when used with spirits in play it simply rips them and whatever team was using them to pieces.
If a hard counter is put in versus something it should be in general a bit of a disadvantage if you don't face it; Shields Up! is nice versus R-spike, but doesn't do much otherwise. Unnatural Signet is pretty lousy without spirits to face (though even then it's a bit weak), Vocal Minority does nothing if the foes don't use a paragon and so on. There are valid reasons NOT to pack these skills, since taking them uses a skill slot against the possibility that it might be useful. In addition, most of the hard counters don't really fully oppose; a single copy of Shields Up! will help versus an R-Spike group, but hardly is persistent coverage, and Vocal Minority is a hex, easily removed unless really quickly buried; even then, the easy solution is to have a convert hexes in the build. A single Unnatural Signet may allow disposing of spirits relatively fast, but it won't keep up with two spirit users for example. Spiritual Pain is just out of lines as a counter goes.
It's too good as a counter, with AoE damage spammed on everything, and MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY too good when the condition isn't present.
Nerf Spiritual Pain please
Epinephrine
B Ephekt
Spiritual Pain is a very good skill, no doubt, but it's hardly overpowered. The 1 second cast time means it's quite an easy spell to interrupt, and there is always the staple counter for any spam skill: Diversion. Also, the 30 second recharge and 10 energy cost make it of limited use; a mesmer spamming it on spirits won't be able to do so for long, and any mesmer planning on spamming it on other players will have to dedicate their elite to GoR or Mantra of Recovery to be effective.
fallot
The cast time is way too low, it needs to be upped a bit.
Lyphen
I never liked it. Felt incredibly dirty after using it. Nearly 300 damage in AoE in three seconds was just too...unmesmery.
baddog992
I love this skill finaly a counter to spirit spammers, yes lets nerf it quick! I think its a very balanced skill it kills the spirit spammer and the spirits themself otherwise spirits are nearly unkillable for a mezmer to take down, nothing affects them in the mezmer line except for this skill and the signet. The signet for spirits are very weak, almost to being unusable in my opinion, why take the lousy sig. that can only kill 1 spirt, in say about 2 minutes when it could used for a realy good skill?
This skill is in regards to a spirit spammer and im loving it.
This skill is in regards to a spirit spammer and im loving it.
fallot
It's not the whole spirit deal that makes it powerful. It's a 1s (less) cast time ~100 damage spell, it's too good in spikes. The OP doesn't want it to be so good even when spirits are not present. This skill is everywhere right now.
Drewfense
Quote:
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Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Spiritual Pain is a very good skill, no doubt, but it's hardly overpowered. The 1 second cast time means it's quite an easy spell to interrupt, and there is always the staple counter for any spam skill: Diversion. Also, the 30 second recharge and 10 energy cost make it of limited use; a mesmer spamming it on spirits won't be able to do so for long, and any mesmer planning on spamming it on other players will have to dedicate their elite to GoR or Mantra of Recovery to be effective.
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Anyways, no one is playing spirit builds atm and people aren't bringing it to counter spirits. The one second cast time with fast casting is an extremely difficult interrupt. There is a reason almost every popular dom mesmer skill has a 2-3 second casting time. It is also more damage than Energy Surge. I have often heard players say if Spiritual was an elite, they would take it over Energy Surge. It is faster cast and more damage for 10 second longer recharge. Sure Energy Surge is edenial, but in the current state of the game, edenial is not a reasonable tactic.
Look at Ward Against Noobs. When they spike with Energy Surge, it is not only interruptable, but it is infusable. When they spike with Spiritual, it really is not interruptable and it is not reasonable infusable. The high damage prevents reactive infusing and the short casting time prevents pre-infusing.
Kinda sticking with Ward Against Noobs, but other people are running it as well. One of the most broken mesmer skills at the moment is Wastrels Demise. I remember when factions came out, talking to some alpha members about how Unnatural Signet would be imbalanced if it had a 20 sec recharge. It would be a 70ish damage 1 second follow up to a spike which isn't to shabby. Especially considering the mesmer has no legitimate spike follow up (other than Shatter Enchantment). So anet nicely adds Wastrel's Worry, a 1/4 second follow up that does 81 dmg and recharges in 8 seconds. It is the most potent follow up to a spike ever in the game. In comparison, it is a far greater follow up than Punishing Shot with dual orders. Absolute idiocy.
Edit: A general rule I use when looking at forums. If anyone says the only counter to something is Diversion, then the skill is overpowered. Diversion is an indirect counter to everything. Making the statement implies there are no other counters. As a sidenote, I can gaurantee you ever skill in chapter 4 will be counterable by Diversion.
Helcaraxe
yes, let's nerf mesmer some more... as if we haven't had enough of the nerf bat.
Honestly, with this skill, mesmers might actually start to get some respect in PvE. And if you are worried of spiritual pain spikes, then lets nerf every other skill that does large damage. Necros, rangers, eles, warriors, rits, all of those can spike too.
Honestly, with this skill, mesmers might actually start to get some respect in PvE. And if you are worried of spiritual pain spikes, then lets nerf every other skill that does large damage. Necros, rangers, eles, warriors, rits, all of those can spike too.
Ehecatzin FlyingCrab
Quote:
| And if you are worried of spiritual pain spikes, then lets nerf every other skill that does large damage. Necros, rangers, eles, warriors, rits, all of those can spike too. |
fallot
How detached from reality do you have to be to refer to a class in such personal terms ? Just keep repeating this: "I am not a mesmer, I play a mesmer" ad infinitum. Seriously, people are getting offended ??
Ehecatzin FlyingCrab
actually you are the one who seems to be offended, I like to play a mesmer, I play mesmer as my main character. but I dont wear maks if that's what you mean.
the again fallowing you logic...how detached from reality do you have to be to create a rant to attack a class in such personal terms...you really seem offended by the spike capabilities of spiritual pain.
the again fallowing you logic...how detached from reality do you have to be to create a rant to attack a class in such personal terms...you really seem offended by the spike capabilities of spiritual pain.
A User Name
To be honest I would rather see Anet nerf Energizing Finale and do something about the mess that paragons have made GvG and HA even more of a mess. But there is no doubt that spiritual pain is a very strong skill but how much of a nerf do you want and remember Anet has boosted the power of alot of skills making the games faster. Also Diversion is a good counter (but doesn't it counter everything as stated before), but interupting it could be hard with only a 1 sec cast - fast casting bonus. Remember the paragons, "Incoming" works well against it and its not like people don't bring paragons. I don't think Anet really needs to nerf spiritual pain in the current metagame lol. I think there are more skills that need to be nerfed before it should be. Anyway only my opinion.
@Drewfense- you mean Wastrel's Demise? I know what you mean but just pointing it out.
@Drewfense- you mean Wastrel's Demise? I know what you mean but just pointing it out.
Epinephrine
Look, I get that people who use it like it. It's a great skill, but it's too good when spirits aren't present. It's a 1 second casting AoE damage armour ignoring skill, which is good enough to bring regardless of whether spirits are present. Then if there are spirits it happens to also nuke the crap out of them, and anyone nearby.
Hard counters should typically be bad to mediocre, and only be good when the condition they are countering is present. If a counter is so good that it is brought regardless it just means that nearly any team has a counter to spirits in their build.
To those who say it's interruptable, it's a mesmer skill, so fast casting of some degree is a virtual guarantee, and I defy you to find another <1 second casting armour ignoring AoE spell anywhere close to this damage. It's just wrong. Make it deal half damage when not directed against a spirit or something, then it'll be what it was meant to be, a spirit counter.
Thanks Drewfense for the support
Hard counters should typically be bad to mediocre, and only be good when the condition they are countering is present. If a counter is so good that it is brought regardless it just means that nearly any team has a counter to spirits in their build.
To those who say it's interruptable, it's a mesmer skill, so fast casting of some degree is a virtual guarantee, and I defy you to find another <1 second casting armour ignoring AoE spell anywhere close to this damage. It's just wrong. Make it deal half damage when not directed against a spirit or something, then it'll be what it was meant to be, a spirit counter.
Thanks Drewfense for the support
Vermilion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Drewfense
snip.
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Arcanis the Omnipotent
If you look at WD, its just a reworked version of the Factions skill Overload.
Unconditional Damage, then more damage if the target was casting.
Unconditional Damage, then more damage if the target was casting.
A User Name
I get where you are coming from but maybe the skill is meant to be a damage skill with a perk I don't know. Personally with most guild teams running around with +100AL, and monks with almost unlimited energy, having a skill that can spike armor ignoring isn't all that bad since pressure builds are very rare and Incoming can prevent many a half hearted spike and a good one as well. I would say if such a skill was out before the time of the paragon then yes it would need a nerf asap but atm with the meta as it is I am more worried about other things more.
baddog992
how about energy surge? does 90 hp with 18dom magic and has a 2 second cast and hit all enemys in range, easly spamable because of the 20 seconds clock time, spirt has 30 seconds cast time. I do realize it doesnt have the 1 cast time but its close and does steal energy from people, It does almost the same thing as spirit pain, only this is an elite.
Arcanis the Omnipotent
I think if a nerf happens, it should only be to the ammount of damage it does. That way it can still spike, still have its insta-charge, but it just takes longer to kill.
Mesmers really arent about constant damage, and really shouldnt be. We have spike skills, good ones. But an insta-kill for anyone with a spirit near them. That is a tad overpowered, and that's coming from a career mesmer.
Mesmers really arent about constant damage, and really shouldnt be. We have spike skills, good ones. But an insta-kill for anyone with a spirit near them. That is a tad overpowered, and that's coming from a career mesmer.
tomcruisejr
how about bringing spirit spamming back so spiritual pain won't be that much overpowered?
Drewfense
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Helcaraxe
yes, let's nerf mesmer some more... as if we haven't had enough of the nerf bat.
Honestly, with this skill, mesmers might actually start to get some respect in PvE. And if you are worried of spiritual pain spikes, then lets nerf every other skill that does large damage. Necros, rangers, eles, warriors, rits, all of those can spike too. |
A simple example, a monk basically has 2 choices for secondary profession. He can go /mesmer and gain interrupts and energy management or he can go /w, /a, /d, et cetera and gain defensive stances. Either choice involves a sacrifice. Now lets say they add a divine favor linked stance that causes 75% evasion. Everyone will go /mesmer, making overpowered monk builds (and reducing variety). Similar examples can be drawn for all classes. In the case of the mesmer, his major limitation is direct damage. Giving him that not only makes the class overpowered (ability to kill quickly with AoE) in the same spell line as caster shut down (Diversion, Shame, et cetera) not only reduces the quality of other classes ("why play an ele when a mesmer can do it all"), but creates imbalances.
It isn't like Spiritual is the only thing that is imbalanced. It is a new chapter, there are a ton of skills out there that need to be fixed and wont be till the end of the season.
Kai Nui
Lol.
This is pretty ridiculous, it's not like a big deal. If you're getting hurt by the skill, simply walk away from the spirit, the spirit range is huge. If they've pressured your team into a tight area with your spirit, then tough luck, cause you're probably going to die anyway. In fact, if you're pressured to be near the spirit not only can you be nuked out easily, but I'd think that's a pretty effective ritualist spirit counter. Even then, if they're using it on you constantly, if you walk far enough away it won't hit a spirit and will take 30 seconds to recharge. Not really seeing how this skill is so great. Not to mention you do have an energy limit anyhow.
This is pretty ridiculous, it's not like a big deal. If you're getting hurt by the skill, simply walk away from the spirit, the spirit range is huge. If they've pressured your team into a tight area with your spirit, then tough luck, cause you're probably going to die anyway. In fact, if you're pressured to be near the spirit not only can you be nuked out easily, but I'd think that's a pretty effective ritualist spirit counter. Even then, if they're using it on you constantly, if you walk far enough away it won't hit a spirit and will take 30 seconds to recharge. Not really seeing how this skill is so great. Not to mention you do have an energy limit anyhow.
Rera
Quote:
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Originally Posted by baddog992
how about energy surge? does 90 hp with 18dom magic and has a 2 second cast and hit all enemys in range, easly spamable because of the 20 seconds clock time, spirt has 30 seconds cast time. I do realize it doesnt have the 1 cast time but its close and does steal energy from people, It does almost the same thing as spirit pain, only this is an elite.
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- Energy Surge is elite, Spiritual Pain is not.
- Realistically speaking, Energy Surge burns up to 8 energy and inflicts up to 80 damage.
- There is a *huge* difference between a 2s cast and a 1s cast, and remember, Mesmers will have fast cast. It is similar to the difference between a 1/2s cast and a 3/4s cast. From a strictly numerical standpoint, there is almost no difference - just a 1/4s right? But practically speaking, 3/4s is about the limit of what you can interrupt consistently on reaction. So although the 1/2s cast is only 1/4s faster than the 3/4s cast, it is *much* less likely to be interrupted.
- The main advantages that Esurge has over spiritual are the radius ("in the area" vs. "nearby" - a big difference, actually), and the edenial.
Gregslot
maybe doing dmg at spirits only?
Thallandor
/not signed
___________________
Just say NO to Nerfism
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Just say NO to Nerfism
Mercury Angel
Ultimately, Mesmer's one main weakness tends to be that it's almost completely reactional, with unconditional direct damage effects being far and few (and often only a secondary side-effect). Spiritual Pain is the anti-thesis of that, even dealing nearby AoE damage to boot.
I like it, I love using it, and it's really rounded out Mesmer spike builds; But it shouldn't be this way. It feels very un-Mesmer, the masters of subtlety.
It's like this;
Discharge Electricity - 15en, 1 cast, 30 recharge
Spell
Target foe is struck for 10+(6X) lightning damage and all nearby foes are struck for 15+(4X) lightning damage. This spell has 25% armour penetration.
The skill is almost fundamentally sound in a vacuum, but it's largely inappropriate for Air Magic. Air Magic is designed to do AoE's poorly, and this defies that notion completely.
Well, that, and inflicting 140 lightning damage unconditionally on a 60 AL target with a 1 second cast spell, ignoring the AoE component for a moment, is ridiculous. But even if you wanted to point that out, one could counter that defence ignoring damage is at an even higher premium, particularly larger amounts of it, almost always coming with some kind of drawback or conditional aspect.
I like it, I love using it, and it's really rounded out Mesmer spike builds; But it shouldn't be this way. It feels very un-Mesmer, the masters of subtlety.
It's like this;
Discharge Electricity - 15en, 1 cast, 30 recharge
Spell
Target foe is struck for 10+(6X) lightning damage and all nearby foes are struck for 15+(4X) lightning damage. This spell has 25% armour penetration.
The skill is almost fundamentally sound in a vacuum, but it's largely inappropriate for Air Magic. Air Magic is designed to do AoE's poorly, and this defies that notion completely.
Well, that, and inflicting 140 lightning damage unconditionally on a 60 AL target with a 1 second cast spell, ignoring the AoE component for a moment, is ridiculous. But even if you wanted to point that out, one could counter that defence ignoring damage is at an even higher premium, particularly larger amounts of it, almost always coming with some kind of drawback or conditional aspect.
Faer
Well, I'm a pretty huge fan of Mesmers, both in PvE and PvP, and I do agree that this skill is just a bit too powerful (I don't have Nightfall yet, so I'm going by the numbers at this point). I noticed that some of you were bringing up the spell [wiki]Energy Surge[/wiki], so I'll use it in my example below.
At 16 Domination Magic (which is not really necessary, but we'll go with max possible attribute simply for the sake of "worst case scenario" discussion), [wiki]Spiritual Pain[/wiki] quickly followed by an Energy Surge would be 186 damage to a single foe, 159 damage to all nearby foes, and 80 damage to all foes in the area, but not within "nearby" range. If Spiritual Pain were to hit a Spirit, then you could potentially up those numbers to 292 damage to a single foe, and 238 damage to all nearby foes. All of this of course at the cost of 20 (or 30 if Spiritual Pain hits a Spirit) energy, which would be just over half of my standard energy pool when I play Mesmer in PvP, in a matter of a second or so, and the best part is, the damage is completely armor-ignoring, so you'll hit just as hard on a Warrior as you would on an Elementalist. If you wanted to go all-out on this, you could throw in [wiki]Arcane Echo[/wiki], and potentially deal 502/396/80. While you won't be able to kill a character with this combination in one go (unless they have a lot of Superior Runes), two Mesmers are all it would take to either kill a target or get it close to death, while also doing large amounts of damage to the majority of their allies (assuming of course there is a Spirit to be hit; if not, well, that's what the rest of your team is for).
I'm sorry, but given those numbers, I am inclined to agree with Epinephrine; this skill is just far too powerful as it stands. It either needs the numbers tweaked, or to be given Elite status (in my own personal opinion). Sure, it's nice that those who play Mesmer characters can now deal out damage on par with offensive Ritualists and Pyromancers (even exceeding them in some cases), but this is a bit too far, and not to mention against the spirit of Mesmerization.
Edit: If that number crunching I did turns into a popular spike build, I take credit for designing it.
At 16 Domination Magic (which is not really necessary, but we'll go with max possible attribute simply for the sake of "worst case scenario" discussion), [wiki]Spiritual Pain[/wiki] quickly followed by an Energy Surge would be 186 damage to a single foe, 159 damage to all nearby foes, and 80 damage to all foes in the area, but not within "nearby" range. If Spiritual Pain were to hit a Spirit, then you could potentially up those numbers to 292 damage to a single foe, and 238 damage to all nearby foes. All of this of course at the cost of 20 (or 30 if Spiritual Pain hits a Spirit) energy, which would be just over half of my standard energy pool when I play Mesmer in PvP, in a matter of a second or so, and the best part is, the damage is completely armor-ignoring, so you'll hit just as hard on a Warrior as you would on an Elementalist. If you wanted to go all-out on this, you could throw in [wiki]Arcane Echo[/wiki], and potentially deal 502/396/80. While you won't be able to kill a character with this combination in one go (unless they have a lot of Superior Runes), two Mesmers are all it would take to either kill a target or get it close to death, while also doing large amounts of damage to the majority of their allies (assuming of course there is a Spirit to be hit; if not, well, that's what the rest of your team is for).
I'm sorry, but given those numbers, I am inclined to agree with Epinephrine; this skill is just far too powerful as it stands. It either needs the numbers tweaked, or to be given Elite status (in my own personal opinion). Sure, it's nice that those who play Mesmer characters can now deal out damage on par with offensive Ritualists and Pyromancers (even exceeding them in some cases), but this is a bit too far, and not to mention against the spirit of Mesmerization.
Edit: If that number crunching I did turns into a popular spike build, I take credit for designing it.
Yawgmoth
This skill is great by itself, it's the mesmer spike and area damage that ignores armor. Recharge 30 is a bit high but it doesn't matter as there are no other mes skills apart from E Surge that have a similar effect.
Then we come to it's anti-spirit ability. Instant recharge makes it a Searing Flames on steroids! I love the feel of this incredible power, nuking whole teams with it much better than a fire ele could gives me the feeling of godly ownage
Like nothing else in GW.
The only problem is that the sheer power of this skill is one of the reasons Ritualists aren't playable in high level GvG (the other reason being overpowered Paragons)
Then we come to it's anti-spirit ability. Instant recharge makes it a Searing Flames on steroids! I love the feel of this incredible power, nuking whole teams with it much better than a fire ele could gives me the feeling of godly ownage
Like nothing else in GW. The only problem is that the sheer power of this skill is one of the reasons Ritualists aren't playable in high level GvG (the other reason being overpowered Paragons)
fallot
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kai Nui
This is pretty ridiculous, it's not like a big deal. If you're getting hurt by the skill, simply walk away from the spirit, the spirit range is huge. If they've pressured your team into a tight area with your spirit, then tough luck, cause you're probably going to die anyway. In fact, if you're pressured to be near the spirit not only can you be nuked out easily, but I'd think that's a pretty effective ritualist spirit counter. Even then, if they're using it on you constantly, if you walk far enough away it won't hit a spirit and will take 30 seconds to recharge. Not really seeing how this skill is so great. Not to mention you do have an energy limit anyhow. |
All of this has been said in previous posts, I request you to read them (Drewfense's and the OP) again and observe some matches.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ehecatzin Flyingcrab
how detached from reality do you have to be to create a rant to attack a class in such personal terms...you really seem offended by the spike capabilities of spiritual pain.
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"Create a rant to attack a class" ? I never even mentioned mesmers before the post you quoted, only Spiritual Pain.
Shadow of Light
I play both a mesmer and a rit, and (even without having played pvp since Nightfall came out) have to agree this spell looks too powerful at the moment. I have nothing against nerfing things like this. 
It looks like an Elementalist spell without the Exhaustion penalty. Mesmer skills are more insidious than this monster...
It looks like an Elementalist spell without the Exhaustion penalty. Mesmer skills are more insidious than this monster...
Thalion Galad
Nerf the nerfers
/notsigned
/notsigned
Cass
1) There are many skills in the game presently that would need adjustment WAY before this. Searing flames? Incoming? They can nerf more than a few spirits as far as I'm concerned, but ...
2) This sort of nerfing has to stop. All this leads to is a game where damage comes in a slow drizzle and defensive turtling tactics prevail.
/notsigned
2) This sort of nerfing has to stop. All this leads to is a game where damage comes in a slow drizzle and defensive turtling tactics prevail.
/notsigned
Epinephrine
I have to say, I love the rationale that something shouldn't be nerfed because other things need it more.
Believe it or not, the devs adjust more than one skill at a time.
The skill is good enough that people have said they'd consider packing it as an elite over Energy Surge. It's that good. The fact that it happens to maul spirits is a side effect.
Believe it or not, the devs adjust more than one skill at a time.
The skill is good enough that people have said they'd consider packing it as an elite over Energy Surge. It's that good. The fact that it happens to maul spirits is a side effect.
yesitsrob
Upping the cast time to 2 seconds would be a start. Even then it would do way more to spirits than unnatural can begin to considering being able to do. But so much armor ignoring - aoe damage should not come with a 1 second cast. I probably wouldn't bring it over surge... if it was elite, just due to the area of effect. but even then i find it to be a close call...
2 second cast time. and maybe only improve the recharge on hitting a spirit? as opposed to making it instant. Sure Spiritual Pain isn't being carried for it's abilities to roll over spirits right now. But that probably has a lot to do with people not bringing rit spirits when there is a more mobile version of them (which would be a paragon).
Some people would do well to read the thread before posting in it.
there are many means in which Spiritual Pain can be toned down a little and it would still be amazing.
2 second cast time. and maybe only improve the recharge on hitting a spirit? as opposed to making it instant. Sure Spiritual Pain isn't being carried for it's abilities to roll over spirits right now. But that probably has a lot to do with people not bringing rit spirits when there is a more mobile version of them (which would be a paragon).
Some people would do well to read the thread before posting in it.
there are many means in which Spiritual Pain can be toned down a little and it would still be amazing.
Cass
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Epinephrine
I have to say, I love the rationale that something shouldn't be nerfed because other things need it more.
Believe it or not, the devs adjust more than one skill at a time. |
Effendi Westland
Very unmesmery skill. I agree on a casting time or dmg nerf even though I love this skill in pve Mesmers shouldn't outnuke a nuker (SQ anyone?).
Former Ruling
The main problem (its an opinion whether its a problem or not) with Spiritual pain and Wastrel's Demise are that they are great Spike helping skills. Before this mesmers could Shatter if there was an enchantment on the person, and maybe follow up with a slow Energy Burn/Surge that would probably be healed through by that time. The Focus of mesmers in GvG is surely changing now.
Straight E-denial got raped by the addition of Paragons. With the hex builds out now Migraine is a strong choice if you are running that sort of build. For the dom mesmers that are left - They are using much less of their traditional shutdown and much more of this new found Spike-help with some other stuff added to cast inbetween (like Blinding Surge, or Incoming!) The extra help killing on a spike just thumps the effects of shutdown in this meta....
EDIT: to the guy that said Demise is a revamped overload...Not quite. Demise's conditional dmg isn't based on a point in time (like if they are casting a spell) but rather a constant variable - How many spells they have equipped. Meaning it is always going to be decent dmg for a spike follow up on a caster, or other situations versus a caster. Wastrel's Demise isn't on the same level as Spiritual Pain though, since it is not AoE and only has decent dmg vs casters.
Straight E-denial got raped by the addition of Paragons. With the hex builds out now Migraine is a strong choice if you are running that sort of build. For the dom mesmers that are left - They are using much less of their traditional shutdown and much more of this new found Spike-help with some other stuff added to cast inbetween (like Blinding Surge, or Incoming!) The extra help killing on a spike just thumps the effects of shutdown in this meta....
EDIT: to the guy that said Demise is a revamped overload...Not quite. Demise's conditional dmg isn't based on a point in time (like if they are casting a spell) but rather a constant variable - How many spells they have equipped. Meaning it is always going to be decent dmg for a spike follow up on a caster, or other situations versus a caster. Wastrel's Demise isn't on the same level as Spiritual Pain though, since it is not AoE and only has decent dmg vs casters.
BahamutKaiser
The fact that Mesmer has a wholsome damage spell doesn't bother me at all. agains't players, the recast makes it a one hit wonder, use twice a minute is not going to do anything but contribute to someone elses damage or spike. I think this is a good example of the added advantage a long recast spell should have to balance it out. The advantage it has against spirits is a little overdone IMO, but overall, it does depend on certain skills to be present to gain that advantage.
I don't think the problem lies in the counter, I think the problem lies in the skill it counters. Spirits are already immobile, and easy as hell to eliminate if you just start attacking them with any skills. It may seem these spirit destroying skills are a bit overpowered, but it is barely any better than throwing fireballs at a spirit, if it is against a normal unit it will have far higher recast, if it hits a spirit it will have far less.
Again, I think the error lies with Ritualist, and how much he loses when he is slammed by spirit counters. 15-25 energy to summon an immobile support spirit which is already easy to kill by any amount of attacking. I think the costs and function of many spirits could stand to be much better, making spirit countering a neccessary part of overcoming a Ritualist build. It isn't like a counter which isn't available if you don't bring a certain skill, regular damage and focused attack can take down a spirit in seconds, so making it more functional and lasting just makes sense.
Often times when there is an imbalance, it isn't the new skill that is broken, people just accept the previous norm as a standard and assume anything that functions outside that box is broken, but often it is the functions already present which are disfunctional and poor, and should be raised to a standard of excellence, not draw everything back to a standard of mundain.
Along with the superiority of Paragon, Ritualist is suffering alot, and axing everything in the game to keep them as weak and difficult as Ritualist is an obvious mistake, it is Ritualist which needs to be driven up to the standard that most other classes function at.
I don't think the problem lies in the counter, I think the problem lies in the skill it counters. Spirits are already immobile, and easy as hell to eliminate if you just start attacking them with any skills. It may seem these spirit destroying skills are a bit overpowered, but it is barely any better than throwing fireballs at a spirit, if it is against a normal unit it will have far higher recast, if it hits a spirit it will have far less.
Again, I think the error lies with Ritualist, and how much he loses when he is slammed by spirit counters. 15-25 energy to summon an immobile support spirit which is already easy to kill by any amount of attacking. I think the costs and function of many spirits could stand to be much better, making spirit countering a neccessary part of overcoming a Ritualist build. It isn't like a counter which isn't available if you don't bring a certain skill, regular damage and focused attack can take down a spirit in seconds, so making it more functional and lasting just makes sense.
Often times when there is an imbalance, it isn't the new skill that is broken, people just accept the previous norm as a standard and assume anything that functions outside that box is broken, but often it is the functions already present which are disfunctional and poor, and should be raised to a standard of excellence, not draw everything back to a standard of mundain.
Along with the superiority of Paragon, Ritualist is suffering alot, and axing everything in the game to keep them as weak and difficult as Ritualist is an obvious mistake, it is Ritualist which needs to be driven up to the standard that most other classes function at.
tomcruisejr
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser
Often times when there is an imbalance, it isn't the new skill that is broken, people just accept the previous norm as a standard and assume anything that functions outside that box is broken, but often it is the functions already present which are disfunctional and poor, and should be raised to a standard of excellence, not draw everything back to a standard of mundain.
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frojack
Oh great. Another skill that makes using spirits even more ridiculous. Shame I use a class that needs to be near and use them to be effective. What was Anet thinking? Hey, is there a way to 'junk' the Ritualists even more? I know...
Then theres the addition of lot's of new rit skills that happen to be enchantments - In the chapter where enchantment removal is at an all time high (incidentally another area mesmers excell in).
It's not like spirits are actually difficult to kill as it is.
/signed
Here's a question for you guys: How else can anet gimp Ritualists? (rhetoric for those easily baited).
Then theres the addition of lot's of new rit skills that happen to be enchantments - In the chapter where enchantment removal is at an all time high (incidentally another area mesmers excell in).
It's not like spirits are actually difficult to kill as it is.
/signed
Here's a question for you guys: How else can anet gimp Ritualists? (rhetoric for those easily baited).
Drewfense
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser
Often times when there is an imbalance, it isn't the new skill that is broken, people just accept the previous norm as a standard and assume anything that functions outside that box is broken, but often it is the functions already present which are disfunctional and poor, and should be raised to a standard of excellence, not draw everything back to a standard of mundain.
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Sidenote: It seems like almost every post involves spirits, but Spiritual Pain has almost nothing to do with spirits. If you took that effect completely out of the description, we would still be having this discussion of a 1 second non elite spell on a mesmer.