Is Metoer Shower still even remotely worthwhile?
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by nSin
Quote: Originally Posted by Bungusmaximus QFT, it's all about timing, I use it different though, I use it as artillery before the fight starts. Meteor shower->attack from rest of group->aggro locked->renewed meteor shower. I totally agree with the critics that other skills d more damage, but knocked down foes don't kill ppl. 'meteor shower isn'' t a damage dealer IMO, it's a tool to prevent damage. Just like fire storm, I only use that to chase foes away from squishies, not to actually do much damage.
I saved many a monks ass with that trick. And it's still VERY useful to get those damn res shrines in AB battles, those NPC monks really hold their own, but when theyre knocked down they don't do much. If knockdown is the desired effect, then Unsteady Ground is a better alternative. Toss in Eruption and you have knocked down attackers who are then blinded.
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agreed.|
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
renewal+meteor shower is terrible, unless the rest of your team is bad.
If you are running a MS build, then GoR is probably the best elite to run with it. There is a reason that a GoR nuker was approved for Guild Wiki. The problem now is that MS nukers are simply not meeting the potential that they could meet with the newer alternatives out there (i.e. Searing Flames, Sandstorm, etc.)
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/E/Me_Heavy_Nuker
bungusmaximus
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
If knockdown is the desired effect, then Unsteady Ground is a better alternative. Toss in Eruption and you have knocked down attackers who are then blinded.
Whoah, I definitely must take a look at that combo, good call
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Stormlord Alex
My Ele has yet to get Searing Flames (woe is me
 ), yet even before SF, there was only *1* place I ever used MS... and that was for destroying multi-monk mobs in FoW. So, to me, MS is still as 'worthwhile' as it was before...
Thom Bangalter
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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:W..._Vigor_Paladin http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:W...ort%27s_Knight http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:E/any_Gust_Support Gust! Hundred blades! Kwality skills right there. The wiki builds aren't exactly benchmarks when it comes to build making.
Hella Good
@OP:
KD is all there is about MS. That and of course the few and far between low level targets. If you asking whether or not AoE KD is powerful, yes, it is powerful, but MS doesn't impress with DPS in the slightest. Shalkia
Wow I just can't believe what I'm reading. You guys must be button smashers.
In PvE, MS is the most devastating skill and can make hard battles incredibly short and easy if used properly. The AI is still not a human player, so whenever you pull a group of enemies (which is in my opinion the smartest thing to do - yes, even with heroes/henchmen), the monsters will most likely pack together and focus on the same target. Then, and only then, should you start casting the AE+MS+GoS+MS combo. And with 101 energy, I don't mind cancelling it to get a better shot. Yes, it can take up to 8.5 seconds to get it down, but with the double KD and massive damage while you spam SF on the same area, you're almost going overkill. Also, never do this at the start of the battle, let the AI cast their interrupts first. Be careful here, I'm talking about end-game PvE areas. Everywhere else you only need SF+Glowing Gaze+LF/Fireball/whatever.
Dr Strangelove
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Originally Posted by Shalkia
Wow I just can't believe what I'm reading. You guys must be button smashers.
In PvE, MS is the most devastating skill and can make hard battles incredibly short and easy if used properly. The AI is still not a human player, so whenever you pull a group of enemies (which is in my opinion the smartest thing to do - yes, even with heroes/henchmen), the monsters will most likely pack together and focus on the same target. Then, and only then, should you start casting the AE+MS+GoS+MS combo. And with 101 energy, I don't mind cancelling it to get a better shot. Yes, it can take up to 8.5 seconds to get it down, but with the double KD and massive damage while you spam SF on the same area, you're almost going overkill. Also, never do this at the start of the battle, let the AI cast their interrupts first. Be careful here, I'm talking about end-game PvE areas. Everywhere else you only need SF+Glowing Gaze+LF/Fireball/whatever. Firstly, with the AI update, the monsters rarely pack up nice and neatly for AoE anymore, and if they do, they're relatively quick to move out of it. Second, what in the name of all that is holy are you doing with 101 energy? That's a waste of attribute points, a waste of your AL, and, most likely with all of the sup runes you must be running, a waste of health. After you've burned all that energy in a battle, do you just sit and wait for a minute or two for it to come back? I'd be surprised if you're finishing any mission in under an hour with that strategy. There is NO reason to run around with that much energy. Finally, as far as killing things goes, it's not as spectacular as the flashy animation makes it look. A casting of MS will do 357 damage if all 3 shots hit with adjacent AoE. Two of them together will do 714. Not too shabby, until you realize that that number will be reduced greatly by armor in high level areas. The adjacent AoE makes it near impossible to hit more than 3 targets or so. You can unleash this combo about once a minute, so you'd better pray it works the first time every time. For sake of comparisn, let's take sandstorm. One casting will do between 420-730 damage if every shot hits with "at target location" AoE, the largest AoE available, the exact number depending on how many times you catch foes attacking. You'd have to be brain dead to not catch almost the entire mob in this spell, considering the size of the AoE. It can be cast every 20 seconds without any energy issues. Cast 3 times in a minute (not even bothering to echo it) You'll deal 1260-2190 damage. Most likely, this will wipe pretty much any mob, leave you with plently of energy and slots for utility, and keep you moving quickly. Finally, it casts in 2 seconds, making it much easier to aim and marginally harder to interrupt. Where does MS come out ahead here?
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:W..._Vigor_Paladin http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:W...ort%27s_Knight http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Build:E/any_Gust_Support Gust! Hundred blades! Kwality skills right there. The wiki builds aren't exactly benchmarks when it comes to build making. The difference here would be that the renewal nuker build was one that was widely used before NF and considered one of the best fire builds by many next to the echo nuker. When was the last time anyone used gust in PvE? Shalkia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Where does MS come out ahead here?
MS comes out ahead with it's KD. And, yes, this is with the new AI. Packing up enemies still isn't hard if they run for the same target (on a pull), keeping them packed isn't hard if they can't move. MS is a shutdown and your job is to deal the maximum damage with your other skills (I use SF+GG and FB) while your enemies can't do anything at all.
For the info, I have 485 health and run a single superior rune: fire. By the way, how do you even get aggro as an ele in PvE with the new AI? Happened once to me... everyone else was dead. There's no way I would use that armor in PvP.
Saphatorael
Why...
Why... do you guys compare MS to Sandstorm and SF? It's a non-elite that lost a bit of popularity ages ago, versus 2 new elites that are quite common nowadays... What a fair match >.> Meteor Shower is on my elementalist her skillbar, and it works fine. Didn't even expect it to work that well; yes, the casting time is annoying at times, but just pick your targets well (talking about PvE... just target a cluster, cast MS, and during caster, 'call' the healer of the mob so the henchies will take that one down, letting the rest of the mob die to your MS... then just finish off the remaining monsters. It still works... and it's a non-elite. So I usually bring it along, yes. Doesn't mean I use it each fight and wait to recharge before i go in for another round, I don't want to bore myself to death. Francis Crawford
It's all about flexibility. If the enemies really could be trusted to stand still, MS Renewal nuking would beat Searing Flames, and various pure damage-over-time spells would beat Meteor Shower.
LightningHell
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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
The difference here would be that the renewal nuker build was one that was widely used before NF and considered one of the best fire builds by many next to the echo nuker. When was the last time anyone used gust in PvE?
I think we should leave it as "Elementalists now have viable damage dealing applications in PvE, and now Meteor Shower is largely trash."
Ensign
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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
The difference here would be that the renewal nuker build was one that was widely used before NF and considered one of the best fire builds by many next to the echo nuker.
What is commonly used, and what is actually good, are two very, very different things in this game.
Peace, -CxE
Mesmer in Need
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Originally Posted by Scourgey
When you are too busy spamming searing flames, you don't really have time to use Meteor shower.
Meteor shower does have uses on builds and 3xKD is nice, it does work nice for ele spiking. After you cast it, you can cast some other damage skill for 2x100 damage when the first wave hits. but once ur dont being gay and spamming sf, you can use ur ms to do legitamant damage (not an insult for you, just the stupid sf spammers in ra)
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by LightningHell
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Originally Posted by Ensign
What is commonly used, and what is actually good, are two very, very different things in this game.
Back in the day when prophecies skills were all that were available it was a good build. Not the best of damage dealing perhaps, but it was good. After Factions and Nightfall, there are plenty of skills/builds that obviously outdamage this one, but that wasn't my point.
LightningHell
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Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need
but once ur dont being gay and spamming sf, you can use ur ms to do legitamant damage (not an insult for you, just the stupid sf spammers in ra)
What's about damage being legitimate? So SF spammers now bend rules by spamming it?
Francis Crawford
I'm going to yell out a question here, because what I said kind of got ignored the first time.
DO Glowing Gaze AND THE BUFF TO Mark of Rodgort MAKE Renewal/MS A STRONG BUILD??? Let me remind you of the math: Gross energy costs per 64 seconds or so: 10 -- Fire Attunement 100 -- MS x 4 20 -- GoR x 4 10 -- GoLE x 2 20 -- MoR x 2 40 -- GG x 8 (let's say that's how often you can get it off) 210 -- Total Energy returned by GoLE -- 20 x 2 or so Energy returned by Fire Attunement -- 4 + 8x4 + 2x5 + 8x2 = 62 Energy returned by Glowing Gaze -- 8x10 = 80 Net energy spent -- under 30 Total casting time -- 36 seconds, plus 14 aftercasts That leaves room to, for example, add in 5-6 Fireballs, unless you want to account for realities such as moving-around time. Searing Flames costs 45 energy to do the same damage GoR + MS can potentially do for 30 energy, giving it less potential damage. On the other hand, it can be spaced better in time, causing more MoR burning. On the third hand, there's knockdown. On the fourth hand, there's enemy kiting. Personally, I find it frustrating and boring to cast 5-second Meteor Showers. But the raw damage potential is still quite non-trivial.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Back in the day when prophecies skills were all that were available it was a good build.
If you say so. I felt that it was pretty awful myself.
Peace, -CxE
LightningHell
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Originally Posted by Ensign
If you say so. I felt that it was pretty awful myself.
Peace, -CxE I was pretty content with spamming Heal Party. Francis Crawford
My pre-SF PVE nuking build was dual Attunements, Rodgort's Invocation, Incendiary Bonds, Fireball, and a spammable. Flame Burst if I thought anybody would get near me. Aura if there was room on the skill bar.
Things died. SS surely killed faster, however, all else being equal.
Thom Bangalter
If you have only phrophecies, and you desperately want to play fire, just run what ensign did in the playoffs only drop flash for another damage skill, since pve is so easy and I've never really found the need to blind things.
Blinding Flash Fireball Ether Prodigy Heal Party Rodgort's Invocation Glyph of Sacrifice Resurrection Chant Meteor Shower Oh wait, we're back to basically the build I told you to run all along.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Crawford
My pre-SF PVE nuking build was dual Attunements, Rodgort's Invocation, Incendiary Bonds, Fireball, and a spammable. Flame Burst if I thought anybody would get near me. Aura if there was room on the skill bar.
Things died. SS surely killed faster, however, all else being equal. And a team of warriors probably decimated the mobs quicker than eight SS's.
Jenn
In Elona, suffice to say, the only time where I've been able to ridiculously and gleefully abuse Meteor Shower is in Consulate Docks. I just LOVE how I can echo it on every crowd, knock everything out, still get a Rodgorts and Searing Flames in there, and everythign's dead. It works great, too, because there's so many bosses in that mission that it's always recharging itself at a better pace.
Other than that, not much is stupid enough to stand in it anymore :'(
Lord Dobo
Ack, I missed three pages since last here. But the opinions are all still the same, some hate it and think the lovers are morons, some love it and think the haters are morons. Who cares, millions of people to play with, play as you want, with who you want, don't play with the others.
I do want to say one thing though, my primary toon is a fire elementalist, and will always be a fire elementalist, because it suits me, I like it, and why would I play a game with a class that someone else wants me to play? Being a fire elementalist has evolved since the days of mobs staying in a 10 second fire storm, and I say, yay!, adapting is good. I happen to still use my MS but I am under no illusion that it's the top skill in my bar. It's not my damage dealer, it's the catalyst in certain situations. But just like the mesmer line, every skill has it's best time to cast, and MS still has good openings. Being a fire mage is not about damage AT ALL and all about controlling space and who gets to fight where. Running enemies don't cast or attack, but can still be attacked and be targeted by spells. Keep vital areas too hot for the enemy. Drop your concerns about damage and the beauty of fire magic stands out. P.S. On the topic of exhaustion, I don't find it to be much of an issue. You lose a small amount that comes back by the next casting. If you echo it, sure you have a problem, but truth be told, I don't echo it because it's like trying to use a hammer to fix everything, each tool is better used at the right time, not every time.
Darkpower Alchemist
My Acolyte Sousuke uses this build for the most part;
[skill=card]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill=card]Aura of Restoration[/skill][skill=card]Phoenix[/skill][skill=card]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill=card]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill=card]Meteor Shower[/skill][skill=card]Searing Flames[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill] He actually plays it rather well, with little maintenance or interference from me. Meteor Shower always has been great in PvE, but it has no use in PvP,since no one stays still long enough to take the full power of the spell head on. In PvE, it works great with a spell that casts fast,like Searing Flames, after the first meteor hits.With the incorporation of Glowing gaze and attunement for E management, energy will hardly be a problem. If it is, you could always swap out Phoenix for GoLE. However,I leave it MS on restriction so that he doesn't go plum damn loco casting it. Vex
hehe I find it smart AI when they run out of it. They do exactly what we do when it is cast on us. Get the hell out of the shower....
jondifool
To have MS really worthwhile in your skillbar you got to get around some of its drawbacks, and utilise it's strength. Else it it's simply rarely worthwhile
Most argument's for or against it, resolves around, dealing with energymanagement, casting time and recharge issues, wich all are horrible for MS, and leaves it as a very situational spell. And while, as exsample echoing or dual atunements are solving one issue, the builds still struggle with the others. Basicly this makes MS subpair to the main contenders at the moment for huge area damage. IMHO the only combination of skills that really does solve all 3 big issues MS has, is to combine MS with glyp of sacrifice and assasins promise (E) - and I am talking stricktly PvE here. BTW I already mention this combo in this thread, but since no one reacted to it, ill do it again. And I assume that it's not that well known, are at least nearly forgottten, since its not mentioned! Instant cast MS gives you alot better chance of using MS's area damage and knockdown, and it doesn't get interupted. The damage kicking in after 3 seconds setup a target for finishing spike , that henchmens and heroes does nice when calling target. Just throw in assasins promise at the right time. Target dies, all skills recharge and you gain energy. Repeat..... And Repeat .... And Repeat. Depending on targets, this cycle is often done in 5 to 10 seconds, while also throwing in some aditional spells to help killing the target (immolate+ glowing gaze is a nice combo there). As long as you don't fail Assasins promise, this means repeatingly casting MS , over and over, and now exhaustion is the only limit. In this combo MS actual has NO real drawbacks, unless you misstime assassins promise which leaves you with 45 sec for assassins promise and 90 sec for MS too recharge , wich is between annoying and devasting. But thats the challange and you have to develope your skills and understanding of the mobs you fight too avoid this. (trick if its tricky, use glyph of sacrifice to get assasins promise off in last moment! thats gives the recharge or another try if target dies first!) I think actual MS in this setup benefits from the new AI , because when the running kicks in, the target is likely knockdowned and therefore prone to more damage if your henchy's spike it. Also I expect it to be an advantage to make relative big chunks of damage meaning that you might get the mob real low before it retreats, compared to eksample Firestorm. But thats speculation for my part. Fact is that MS in this works as a main damage and target control spell, and most of the time there wil be at least 1 MS raining down on mobs, often more, during a whole fight. The weaknnes with this como comes when it's hard to kill targets and therefore you don't get MS recharged (some late missions and bosses) or when you don't have the experience yet to time assasins promise. Then it just not good! But else I just can't see why it should not be on terms with Searing flames and Sandstorm.
LifeInfusion
One lightning orb usually does about 2 times the whole meteor shower from my experience. That is because the armor of higher level mobs basically nullifies meteor shower. Of course if you are fighting mobs 20+ they also are spread apart and kite. Those 100 damage meteor showers quickly drop to the 40's for a total of ~120 damage.
With all the interrupts in Nightfall you aren't going to pull off that many 5 second casts without lying flat on your face. The end result is having your monk heal you to 0 energy or you interrupting meteor shower. ================================================== ========= I switched from meteor shower to air/earth last year for that reason: fire is all damage and AoE, no utility. Who cares if you can do 300 damage *non* armor ignoring? It takes 60 seconds to recharge and is easy to interrupt + exhaustion. With Glyph of Renewal it gets a bit better, but you will be spending all your time casting and your exhaustion goes through the roof. Searing Flames does WAY more damage BTW. 119 every 2 seconds (continually) as opposed to every 3 and then you wait for recharge. Plus it doesn't need 5 second casts or exhaustion. But it is elite. ================================================== ========= Anyway no other AoE elementalist skill is 5 seconds cast. Meteor shower is the only 5 second cast. EDIT: Believe it or not, Shatterstone is the highest no-armor penetration skill in the elemental damage line and it is in water magic. Granted, it is single target.
Cebe
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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist
My Acolyte Sousuke uses this build for the most part;
[skill=card]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill=card]Aura of Restoration[/skill][skill=card]Phoenix[/skill][skill=card]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill=card]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill=card]Meteor Shower[/skill][skill=card]Searing Flames[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill] He actually plays it rather well, with little maintenance or interference from me. Although I do give some of my Sousuke's Meteor Shower I found it to be hilarious the way he used it on the Lvl 0 Mantid Monitor Hatchling outside Seitung Harbor. I was like.. "umm Sousuke?....Overkill..."
Zamochit
I always thought that meteor shower was about the knockdowns personally and the resultant interupts. It cant be compared to Searing flames for damage but why should it be? I always considered meteor shower was there to make it easier for the damage dealers to do their jobs more easily.
oh and lol at Celestial...Zhed does love to nuke the most rediculous targets...Just dont put glyph of sacrifice next to searing flames on your skills bar :0 NinjaKai
With henchman and heroes. I find AoE scatter to be a good thing. Makes killing them easier since they can't get themselves organised properly.
Etcetera
meteor shower... it sometimes wins fights yeah... provided your warriors take the role of tanking and not whack-a-caster.
meteor shower... it sometimes loses fights yeah... provided your aim it wrong and you wasted 5 seconds looking pretty... actually thats not a bad thing at all..
alchemistsan
MS in as for my usage did not go for damage especially for near end game PVE, and it is for the knockdown that MS provides. Using Glyph of Renewal I can cast MS each 15 secs. and with the Aupicious Incantations (Mesmer Factions Skill), I'm basically out nuke a lot of ele (in continously cast MS) with a very good e-management.
Even the damage is crap for high level monster, what I want is to release pressure of the team by knocking down the opponent and of course to where the warrior doing tanking. A knockdown foes will inflict less damage and healing per sec (the high level mobs doing crazy damage). So you can easily overcome the foes. Gimme Money Plzkthx
Meteor shower is a clutch skill. You use it when you REALLY gotta take something out, it is more of a finisher (well, beginner, but you get what I mean) move. Of course, there are numerous skills you can use to reduce the recharge, cast it multiple times, etc., but it really doesn't need to be spammable. It is for the tough spots.
Francis Crawford
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Originally Posted by LifeInfusion
One lightning orb usually does about 2 times the whole meteor shower from my experience.
I'd guess it's under 2X the damage from the first strike, no matter how high level. If 2 strikes hit MS is probably ahead.
Of course, that's in one casting. Recharge is a whole different matter. Kijik Oni Hanryuu
Hmm for PvE I plan on sticking with Triple MS and rotary fireballs, when I break my ele out. The main reasoning behind still using MS is, even though it may not do too much damage since they don't stand in it any longer, it does, however, snare them into smaller areas or into one MS when I spread the showers around, it can also be used as a defensive tactic to cover our casters with protective MS so that no little wammo monsters rage in their faces.
Xiaxhou of Trinity
Are you even a nuker? MS is still an invaluable skill to any nuker, despite the new monster ai and aoe nerfs.
AiLLUSION
MS is one of best nuke there is, end of discussion
Francis Crawford
I'm typically running Three Nuketeers in PvE now, and nary a Meteor Shower among them. Of course, I also run an MM, which soaks up a whole lot of the aggro.
My heroes get the standard 4 SF skills, the Power Drain/Leech Signet combo, and two of Aura/Rez/a mesmer defensive stance. I usually run the standard 4, Aura, Fireball/Liquid Flame, SQ/cap sig, Lightbringer's Gaze where appropriate, and rez when it fits. If I make room for anything, I'm inclined to take an Earth armor and/or wards. Maybe when I run SQ and there's no enchant stripping I'll try it out over Aura and see how it works ... [KotL]Mjolnir
My Ele is only a few weeks old so I'm no expert but the build I'm running I find works great no matter what I'm doing:
[skill=card]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill=card]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill=card]Searing Flames[/skill][skill=card]Meteor Shower[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Restoration[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Sacrifice[/skill][skill=card]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill=card]Fire Attunement[/skill] I find MS great for knocking down casters while burning them alive with SF . The key for me is using it with Glyph of Sacrifice, the benefit of an instant cast outweighs the extra 30secs recharge as you'll rarely need to use it again in the same fight.
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