Domain Of Anguish

It gives a random item. So far people have gotten scrolls (800 gold >.<), but have also gotten Malyx mini pet (I think, there's a pic).

So its a gamble, you could either get something really good, or really bad.

I could care less about the area itself what is ticking me off is the fact that I know I'm NEVER going to get Razah on my dervish unless I pay for overpriced gems.

I'll wait for the price to fall, Razah's not even on my list of priorities since they made him a Rit so I wont be losing any sleep over not having him.

Besides I finished the game with my Ritualist so it's not as if our team wont have access to one, and I reckon most people would actually like to have him BEFORE they finished the game, seeing as he's not really worthy of being an Elite reward now he's not "Variable" and no different to any of the others

Only thing that needs doing to DoA is to add tumbleweed to it as it's going to be deserted pretty soon.

No it's not the silver bullet, but it would help you must admit, you brought up some interesting points, that had not entirely a cured to me.

You'll be waiting a long long time, for them to become affordable to anyone but the constant ebay junkie, case in point they completely ruined farming in UW did not adjust the drop rate of anything, and we have the market spike Glob Of Ectoplasm 9.5k why? because the farmers that where keeping it in check are no longer doing it, as for Ruby's / Sapphires & diamonds well that speaks for itself, to keep the market in a sane level you would have to ensure that anyone that did anything and got a fare distant in FoW/Uw or any other high level area, that everyone got at least 2-3 of the current high priced items, on the team without exception.

There needs to be re-balance of those areas, with farming nerfs to keep market prices in check other wise, no one will be able to afford anything nice, and all the hard work by the artists will hardly ever be seen.

The reason the prices of these Gem's won't go down is because, there isn't enough people constantly farming it, there not on the market to buy so there is no 'fixed' price that is controllable by the game, there like weapons which mean players set the price, and that can be high or low depending on how greedy the player happens to be.

Nah they'll drop a lot soon enough... Only a matter of time before the people who *can* wait are the only ones left vs the ones who give in. Sorry to burst your bubble. Not that I care either way...

Plus the new chapter will come out next year and DoA will become old news... if it's already.

Lol, they said that DoA wouldn't become a what it has, when I said that people would walk away from this too. we shall see

i am amazed that people are considering DoA as old news within 11 days since the release.

So out of morbid curiosity, I tried Pugging a couple of rounds through DoA.

Map Strategy:
Most PUGs do not use the map or are very poor at it. Like in higher level PvP, using the map and terrain to your advantage is important. While the number of terrain elements are less in PvE, it is vital not to overlook. Using Corners to hook agro and walls to prevent ranged line of sight attacks/spells were completely ignored. When agro breaks and a party wipe seems eminant, using the terrain to quickly removed agro from yourself, Split the remaining party to increase survivability, and regroup (and quickly ressing, sometimes with decoy and rez tactic).

Lagtime between agro:
Pug builds seem to typically seem to use a variant of the hit and run tactic which i will dub "Hit and Wait" tank goes in and holds agro, then its followed by 2-3x glyph sac meteor shower then + SF/GG. While this is great and seemingly fast there are two problems with it. the second one i will describe in a section below. The most notable problem is the lag time between agro. PuGs will wait the entire duration for the glyph sac meteor shower to recharge. Assuming everything goes without a problem, you're still spending more time waiting than fighting. Once the glyph sac MS is recharged, an additional time is spent waiting for figuring out an approach to the next mob then prep time for enchantments etc before agroing. We use glyph conc instead of glyph sac, and don't ever run more than 2 MS (see note below) to reduce recharge time, and we don't wait for MS to recharge before taking on another agro (since it isn't out main source of damage).

Kiting/Defence:
When Agro breaks, and enemies aren't killed before reaching the back/midline, monks have a difficult time keeping the party up. And usually results in most of the party dying. This is due to the lack of protting (asside from bonds) and kiting by players. Notably, there is only 1 copy of PS in the team. of course, the best way to take 0 damage is to kite melee and kite away out of range from casters before they can cast an additional spell. PS is your friend. Our builds carry at least 4 copies of PS anywhere up to 6 depending on the area. Also, I watched a bunch of eles sit in choking gas getting continuously interrupted instead of kiting out of the gas to cast. Esp against ranged attackers, like ele, mes, ranger, it's good practice to run in cast, run out of casting range. this minimizes the number of ppl the protted need to keep ps on and reduces damage and death greatly.

Skill type distribution (A True Balanced Team):
I have seen quite a few builds calling themselves balanced, but in reality aren't very balanced. By definition, they are spiked. In low end PvP, you often seen builds with highly specialized roles. For example, a healer only uses healing skills, a protter only uses protection skills, eles and warriors only uses attack skills, so on. A balanced team, however, has each player take some attack skills and some defensive skills. Monks specialize in defence but take both healing and prot, making a bonder obsolete. This allows your to replace the bonder with another attacker allowing you to deal out more damage.
Why spread the disribution of skill types? Wouldn't keeping only attack skills on attackers, prot skills on a protter, heal skills on a healer, etc allow people to concentrate on their one and only "job" and allow them to be more effecient at it?
Answer: 1) if a mob spike kills one key player, in a highly specialized build, you lose all of that player's ability. For example. You have a team with 1 Protter. He is 100% of the prot. if he dies, you now have 0% prot. Now if you have 2 monks with some prot skills and 4 attackers with prot skills, if 1 monk dies, you still maintain 83% (1/6) of your prot skills. 2) when an agro break, or you come across a 500+ dmg deathly swarm (hits 3 targets) or a bunch of invoke lightenings (hits 3 targets) or any other AoE (Meteor, Searing Flames, E Surge), you have the ability to apply 4-6 PSs simultaneously (of course you need to have to player skill to use them all properly). If you only had one protter, you'd only get one PS off due to the recharge time.
Additional Skill notes. Backfire is important for killing Ki's effeciently. A single Ki due to it near infinate energy pool and keep a mob up for a very long time against 3 SF eles as we found out not to mention when there are 2 or more. SS is a powerful skill too. Lightbringer's gaze is a powerful attack skill and interrupt that is very cheap.

Party Wiping #, Rerez time, DP, and retreats:
These are all elements that exponentially add time to each quest. By reducing the party wipe #, you reduce the time you spend rezzing. Dying also causes DP and limits the energy pool and health, which limit the number of skills you can use (esp for casters) and the amount of damage you can take before dying (1 shot kills?). By using the strategy above you can continue to fight without having to retreat (retreating which eneviably causes death and time delay during retreats) when mobs break agro.

Note on Meteor Shower:
Due to the way the AI calculates agro breaking due to AoE and the way knockdowns are handled, it turns out glyph sacing 3 ms simultaneously often causes mobs to break agro. It's usually better to cast only 1 MS at a time to minimize agro breaking. Note that this may be a different story if you do run Earthbind.

To summarize: to cut down on time, cut away the wait time between agroing mobs, fight and defend through broken agro, minimize deaths/dp with smart and skilled play, and rez quickly.

i am not sure of that MS theory though.
We tend to cast 3 meteors with spacing, it keeps them in agro while knocking them down.

Tested in stygian, and had no issues.
Tested in Foundry, and had no issues... maybe got lucky...

Appears to me that the way this tank had his agro maintained, monsters were not towards his front side, but rather spread arround him ( Adjacently )

As one of my friend said, An average PUG group should take half hour in order to get to know each other and their skills. Synchronizing is what one needs in PuG most of the times.

A Meteor shower hits every 3 seconds, while it only knocks down for 2 seconds. If a second meteor shower hits during the time that the target is knocked down, (ie 1 sec after the first kd-when the target is in the motion of standing back up) a second knockdown is NOT applied. Usually (if MS are cast sepearetly) the 2sec kd is enough to reset the broken agro from AoE. but if the agro is rebroken while the target is coming back up, it will not get reset. since MS kd is for 2 sec while hitting every 3 sec, this gives them 1 sec to move out of MS. of course, if you use earthbind, this makes kds last 3 sec and may keep foes permanently kded (unconfirmed)

no, it does keep them kded, though the spirit won't last long enough. that is confirmed ^_^

MS doesn't break aggro.
However, standing around in the enemy aggro range for long time after you cast MS does.

As long as you pull your Ele back as soon as you spam the two MS, the aggro won't get on you.

Very possible aohige
Thing is, if your using one ele with arcane and sac and another with just sac, have arcaned ele cast his first ms, ( Cast your Sac glyph while he is casting his MS ) then his sac, and cast second ms... the moment u see him calling for second ms, cast yours and step back.
3 ms and i have maybe seen 5% of the times, any agro breaking in DoA since i have been playing.

You should use Arcane echo before moving into range,
and when in range, use MS > Sac > MS. This should reduce the time you're near enemy aggro by a bit.
But yeah, only time when I see aggro break, is when a caster is sitting too close to the enemy range for too long.
During the first casting of MS shouldn't aggro the enemy unless he's already broke aggro from another Ele.

So timing for the two Eles to go up at once is crucial, obviously.
Once the first MS is cast, the sac>MS combo is very fast, so it shouldn't be an issue for them to get out of the way in time.

The most frequent aggro breaking, IMO, is when multiple Eles are taking turns going up, and one of them breaks aggro of a monster... just in time for the next Ele to come up in range.

if u notice, i never called the first ele using arcane while in agro heh
i said "arcaned ele" :P
But excellent advice!

Yes, all excellent advice be that as it may, most people don't have time to fiddle with meta game, micro level skill adjustments. I'd say people expect that sort of micro management in PvP rather than PvE.

Absolutely. From what I have seen, the majority of the playerbase is interested in forming a group quickly and just jumping in to have fun. They either don't have the time to go into long-winded discussions as to who is going to do what, or don't have the inclination. If they did, they would play PvP.

If too many people decide it isn't fun, it will be become a ghost town (assuming it hasn't already). I would have thought that it would be better to have a gradually increasing level of difficulty, rather than the 'Dead on Arrival' type, as that way people will at least give it a chance.

Map: Most PUGs have somewhat learned to watch the map for doodles. What most still lack, is taking initiative in responding to map. Paying attention to agro circle, keeping an eye out for patrols, etc. The problem: Heroes don't draw on map.

Kiting/Defence: "I'm an ele, I shouldn't have to kite." This is #1 thing that kills most groups in DoA. One mob escapes agro, and the entire group simply falls apart. Only the person targeted kites, the rest keep on attacking the escaped mob while everyone stays in monk's range. Easy? Or is it. Wards, party armor buffs, evasion, ... all lost in many PUGs.

Lagtime: Yep. First thing here, is that you don't need 3 arcaned MS to kill anything. Unless you fail to shutdown the monk.

Balanced teams: Wuts a memser? Seriously, ask anyone what backfire does. Ask them how long it takes for backfire to kill anything. Or, how many mobs in DoA can remove hexes. Two, possibly echoed/aechoed/renewaled backfires, coupled with mistrust and spiritual pain is probably one of heaviest damage dealers when dealing with single groups (depends on area). Ritualist with a selection of spirits, including earthbind, eoe, QZ (in some cases), EoE, Famine + SV, desecrate enchantments, BHA + virulence, wards, paragon buffs, even well of profane (used carefuly of course) will hurt the mobs much more than party (no bonder of course).

But any and all such "advanced" tactics seem to be lost. Maybe someone should make a tutorial video, demonstrating all of that.

Protection and damage prevention is another topic which goes mostly unnoticed. For example: Shiro. Protection, and damage prevention makes shiro completely harmless. 2 Monks with chained aegis are enough, throw a ward, SoA and prot spirit into that mix and shiro will die of frustration. The groups I ran against shiro used 2 full prot monks, with only two heals being dwayna's kiss and mend condition. The rest is all out prot. No bonds or anything like that either.

But as long as groups remain at LF 4 SF/MS nukers, DoA will remain hard. Unfortunately, it's quite hard to try different group setups, since the class selection there is limited, and gameplay strategies are really slow to catch on.

That's kind of lame...

Which is why I proposed an idea, of difficulty same rewards / drops at any level, but for those that like a harder challange, they can choose the harder settings, for example, [easy] [intermediate] [advanced] [expert], completing the top 2 levels would give you some sort of title, where as the easier stages wouldn't give you anything towards the title, there by giving reward to those that can master the game by using micro management, and allows others to just play for fun.

This presents itself it's own set of draw backs, if you get the same rewards on any level (except for title gain), then why would anyone choose a harder level for the same reward, someone or something has to keep gemstones in check for one thing, and something has to keep it fun for those -new to the game- let alone C1/C2.

The problem here is ArenaNet, so far they've never gone back on an idea and fixed it, I'm referring to the content in factions, they said they would provide a way to gain access without owning a town have they? no, all be it for 1 weekend allowed people in, they seam to be stubborn at admitting there faults at creating things, at least that's the impression I get from them, and the favor debates still rage on, so lets not get into that one.

And since they don't, they should be playing WoW.

There, you make your build over 3 months, then play that till eternity. Nobody will ever ask you to change it, nobody will need to balance group. All you need to do, is hang around the city for 3 hours, getting your group together and waiting for that final missing class. Then you go in, and spend next 11 hours fighting till last boss. And then, one item drops, and group leader assigns it to one of 40 players.

Oh yea, in pvp you can also run any build, as long as it's shaman or rogue.

^^ That - is the alternative. You cannot make difficult, high-end areas in any other way. I still prefer GW aproach. At least GW gives you the option to make a balanced build and clear the place in well under two hours.

Builds, team synergy, setup, this is what GW is about. And if you cannot spend 10 minutes synchronizing the team, how will you have time to play for next 1-2 hours?

The irony: since people refuse to change their style, they run the cookie cutter builds, which are slow, inefficient and require very slow aproach to mission. Balancing the team is all about speeding up the gameplay.

Rewards? GW always had it's difficulties with rewards since everyone can get max level, best armor and weapons in no time. Rewards are somewhat artificial since they are design only!

DoA is too hard and frustrating for 99% of the players - including myself. Up until now I have done pretty much everything in GW but i'll pass on DoA. It's not fun, not nice, not rewarding, certainly not worth spending weeks on it trying to master it.

Even a "Diamond armor crafter" in DoA, wouldn't change a thing imo since my inventories are full of 15k armor, green items and other stuff anyway - and i am not going to salvage those

I have never played WoW and have wondered how I would like
it compared to GW, if your statement above is correct, I am
thanking my lucky stars I am a GW player, that sounds very
frustrating.

thx and have fun......

It's a bit overfused, but in theory.

I have a friend talking about wow all the time, he's like "Oh and i need that item and and this item, which i can get at this and that boss..." and i'm like "What do you ever do when you're bored of one profession/class?"... no answer yet..

acctually wow takes more time of setting up a group for high level instances and is a much more complex game.

they ain't bored of it, they just got too many options even within that one class
i know cause my brother plays his rouge, and hes playing for as long as i am playing guild wars.
he is one of the highest ranked pvp player on his server atleast, gets his drops based on Point system, and hes very cunning at getting them, so yeh, hes enjoying it.

Apparently, PVE in WOW is what pulls the player towards WoW.

Well, the comment was highly sarcastic.

But here's WoW's PvE.

You choose a class, your secondaries, and then you're off grinding. During this time you need to choose talents. Great, lots of customization, lots of choices, lots of "complexity".

Everyone is welcome in groups, they are easy to assemble, go in, and have fun.

Or are they?

First, with regards to PvE, it's easy to grind out a gimp. A class, that is unwanted, unneeded, and useless in groups. In addition, despite talents offering customization, a very specific build is demanded by players for various instances. You can change it of course, but it costs tons of money. In addition, PvE builds don't work in PvP. So you need to respect and pay even more money to do serious PvP.

Groups. They take hours to form. Why doesn't everyone just run in and have fun? Simple: You need a team build. If you don't have it, you'll die.

WoW ensures that as you level up, gear ensures you victory. But then what. At 60, everything stops. So then you need to grind instances to get epic gear, which again gives you some more edge. Once you get that, that's all you'll ever be. Ever. Your "skill" is determined solely by your build. You cannot exceed it, you cannot have it underused. Game ensures you the "skill" needed. For measly hundreds of hours of completely unrelated grind.

Compare it to GW. DoA is impossible for some, merely moderate and slow for others. What about THK? Gate of Madness? Everyone has exactly the same gear, same level, same skills? Why do some still fail to kill Shiro despite packing Spoil Victor and Empathy? And why do others run that place in 15 minutes with henchies and none of those skills?

People who fail in various parts of GW miss a gameplay aspect they haven't used before. Be it kiting, protting, spiking, positioning, pulling, .... All skills that are not given by game but must be learned.

Understanding where this difference lies is what sets GW and WoW apart. WoW is designed to make you win. GW is designed to present you with a challenge. Accept the challenge, and you'll find everything easy to moderately difficult. Refuse it, and GW becomes impossible.

But no, WoW is not complex. It offers options, but they are all linear. The more of something you have, the better you are. More armor, more potions, more levels, more resists, more money, more everything. Everything you add makes you "tougher".

Unfortunately, WoW has done more harm than any other game. It has created so many gamers that will till eternity expect the game to become easier so they can win it. What about those that do play for challenge? Chess hasn't changed in thousands of years, yet it still works. It's not for everyone, but expecting it to change so that it's easier is simply wrong. Play the game for what it is.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, few even know what chess is, let alone play it. The "games" today are computer games that adjust their level based on your score. Have low score, the game adjusts to easy mode. Have high score, and game adjusts. But the notch at which it is, is always just a few percent below challenge. Too many games are designed to make player win no matter what. Is that fun? For some... But I prefer a challenge.

Excellent Post antheus, and this is one of the reasons why i like DoA as it is. It has taken me time to discover how things are thing, there is strategic planning envolved.

People who think every thing is an exploit because it is changing the way game play is done... Well a monster doing 200 + Dmg to 500 is not giving me a better choice.
I do not like to stand in a packed room of monsters where i have a gate behind me, so well, why not just stand BEHInD the gate instead? they got casters, we got casters, lets see who wins?

It's fun how the players that obviously do not have any high-end raiding experience in WoW are ready with their judgement.

First, doing 40 man instances with pickup groups is nearly impossible, every mob needs its own strategy and failure of one player might wipe out the entire raid. For example: a mage overaggro-ing, the tank not holding aggro, the priests slacking or overhealing and thus pulling aggro...

Second, I mentioned this is not done by PuGs, you need to be in a guild to actually progress in end-game content. Only the most elite guilds ever 'finish' the game and get all they want. However, 99% of them will not be done with the content till new stuff is put in, thus providing more stuff to do when you do finish. On a sidenote, you WILL be asked to change your build if you are intending to raid for some classes. Shadow specced priests are only welcome in raids if there is enough healing for example. Same goes for spelldamage druids.
Also, the gear is not assigned to people by a raidleader, in most guilds it is distributed by using a form of an auction system, using DKP. You earn DKP by attending raids, thus people putting more time in the progress of the guild will have a higher chance of being rewarded.

PvP never really was my thing in the 1,5 year I played, and its true that a PvE build is less effective than a pure PvP one, but it wont be a big problem. If your good at PvE, your gear will compensate for a small portion of your lack of effectiveness, but the skill of the player determines the larger part. Also, if you simply work together with your team your almost sure to win on the battlegrounds, since most groups dont know what they should do and walk around like headless chickens.

I personally was pleasantly surprised by the addition of DoA, since it reminds me of the difficulty of the 40-man raids in WoW.

People will probably reply with 'go play WoW if you like it that much', well ..
1 - I'm a student and dont have the cash, GW is cheaper.
2 - It takes enormous amounts of time, you can play GW for just a short time and progress a bit. Doing an instance in WoW takes at least an hour, 40 man usually takes 4+.
3 - There is no difference between characters in GW. It's pretty easy to get your max armor and weapons, then you just need skills and personal skill. I do miss an Auction House system for trading weapons and upgrades though.
4 - You can solo till you reach 60, but to get better gear your dependent on others. I really enjoy the hench/hero system in GW.

I can accept the insult of being called a noob or a retard or what you see fit for not having whatever it takes to master it (even if the main thing I’m lacking, I tell you, is patience and 2 hours to find a group who isn't whipped at the first gate)
But one thing makes me worry about DoA.
It's been almost 2 weeks since it's been released.
And nobody, even the self proclaimed 'good players' with ‘good guilds’ on this board have finished it.

Nightfall was finished in 2-3 days, when the above-average-joe took 2 or 3 times that amount to do so the first time, without really worrying about finding a group.

now I do my maths, and even though I don't like the idea of skipping an area of a game I’ve been playing from the very start, I’m wondering if I’ve 6 weeks ahead of me for it, with too many time involved in just grouping.

and I also wonder why so much people is against making it a 12-men area so everybody have a chance in it, when they would still be able to do it with a 8-men team if they wants to.
Doesn’t everyone have the right to enjoy the hard work of Anet? Would you be able to do this area if it wasn’t for every players’ money and trust?

The reason atleast I havn't beaten the quest is because of my Exams. I am going to be free by thursday, and if it wasn't for exam, i would have been done with this quest by the last weekend.

As far as the actual mission goes, i love the idea of having something this long so i can atleast spend sometime in GW and stop farming areas.

12men groups make sense to me, but i assume, you will find 12 man mission after this 8 man questing.

Which character are you playing with in game blast?
List your IGN ( if comfortable ) and profession.

I’ve got an elementalist, a ritualist and a dervish in the DoA. so at least one of them can actually do the quests.
A ranger is on her way, too
all my characters' IGN starts with the same name I’m using on this forum, so if you ever see me ingame, feel free to invite me..

Maybe you should read: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...79#post2323879

usually, anet fix this things quite quickly, so, as it was reported ~3days ago, i though it was already fixed...
if it isn't, that sure explain things...
but well, nightfall would have been finished even more quickly if it wasn't for the bug in the main quest :/

Learned? Certainly. In PvP.

I play Guild Wars for fun, and I dislike PvP intensely. I see no reason why I should have to conform to PvP requirements to play PvE, and I suspect a great many other people feel the same. If, as you suggest, we all go and play WoW, how many copies of Chapter 4 will be sold? How long will GW continue?

Anet are the only people with the figures, but I expect they are worried. I have noticed that recently we have 'PvP Primers', 'State of the Game' articles on Tournament play and even tips on playing DoA in the Scribe. The Winterfest ladder at the end of the season shows that you can get into the top 1000 Guilds by playing and winning just 3 matches. I see these as symptoms of a lessening interest in PvP, and if that is the case then Guild Wars needs all of its players be they PvP or PvE.

This means that new areas like DoA should appeal to as many people as possible. If they don't, you stand to lose people rapidly and its a long time until Chapter 4! I *like* Guild Wars. I want it to continue. But I want it to be fun as well.

I've tried DoA many times without success, and I growed tired of it. I have created a Survivor and that's what's keeping me occupied, after that I don't know really but definitely it will not be DoA.
In my opinion it's too hard, and it's basically more difficulty but quality down. Long live Sorrows Furnace, the best instance already created.

Three things;
1) As people here have shown and posted on wiki... you don't. Just expect to multiply the time it takes to complete each quest by 2.5 on the above chart.

2) As people meet others and friends lists get bigger, skilled pvpers consolidate. The first year the game came out, winning 5 GvGs put you on the top 100 list. Skill pool has consolidated. If you look for the highest density of Raw Rating, you'll find it around the rank 300 mark instead of around the rank 1000 mark. I wouldn't neccessarily say that just because 3 wins'll get you to the top 1000 means pvp interest is lessening, it could just be an effect of player caliber stacking in the high end gvgs leaving lower end gvg teams depleted of talent.

3) Stereotyping that PvPers are leeter than PvEers come from posts such as the above. The truth is, the game is still the same in PvP and PvE. The same rules apply (except maybe lightbringer points and sunspear rebirth signet). Skill in PvE should carry over to Skill in PvP, and Skill in PvP should carry over to PvE. I'm not saying DoA flips the PvP>PvE idea, but I have witnessed many a leet PvPers (in DoA ID1) forming groups and failing miserably on the first couple of days. But this is a tangent.
The point I'm trying to make (and maybe failing) is that in both PvP AND PvE kiting, protting, spiking, positioning, pulling, etc are part of the game. You can chose to ignore it if you want even in PvP, but you shouldn't expect to be able to play on the same level as the people who do it. And most importantly, You should abandon the idea that kiting, protting, spiking, positioning, pulling, etc is only for PvP and visa versa. PvX- it's still the same game.

I'm not clear exactly on what your argument is here. By my reading, it is one of the following:
1) Kiting, positioning, etc. are only necessary for PvP. If you don't like PvP, you shouldn't have to learn how to do these things.
2) Kiting, positioning, etc. are necessary for PvE, but you can only learn them in PvP.

Both claims are wrong, although for different reasons.

This outlines a significant problem in game design. Developers typically have no business incentive to make a truly intelligent or challenging game, because the majority of consumers simply will not appreciate it. If a game, or part of the game, requires appreciable skill - rather than merely time investment - to beat, most players will simply give up and claim it is 'too hard' and 'not fun'. But is this a failing of the developer, or of the player? I believe it is the latter.

to: Kenagalaz's crew

I would like you to teach me on how to complete foundry in 3 hours.
Yeah, our first run to complete it took seven, but then again, we didn't know what to expect, and faced near-wipe a couple of times. (like, 12 Dervish titans popping out around us )
I'm sure if we go back in there again, we can complete it this time in 5 hours or so, knowing all the triggers and tactics...

But 3 hours? Man, you must know something we don't! Do tell!
We're planning on getting three more members of our alliances through Foundry, to get them 4/4 through the quests, so we have more members available for the last part (currently only 7 members).
If we could cut down the time of Foundry to 3 hours, we could bring even more members to complete DoA with us

/beg

The customer is always right, you know. That is, if you want to have future business with said customer.