Well then, ANET hate paragons now
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
"Can't Touch This!"
...So much as remotely useful in PvE, I'll be happy.
Practically every class has PvE-worthless skills, I don't see your point with regards to paragons.
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Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon
Maybe you're completely useless, but my paragon certainly isn't. If you limited your ability to play to broken skills, then I doubt you're a very good player.
Glad to see that people are capable of rational thought.
crucifix
there are a few things that need to be outlined here. lets start talking about what paragons were for:
-energy battery -backup party wide gimp heals -massive damage reduction -skill assist with song of conc now lets take a lok at how the nerf leaves paragons: -backup, gimped heals -damage reduction, almost useless now -song of conc still works -no more energy batteries So now we ca see the problem, the main reason paragons were so good was because of the backline and party wide buffs. Lets take a look at the other attribute that paras gain absoluely nothing from: Spear Mastery: -now what we have here is a plethora of skills that really need a buff moreso than others nerfed. Thereare quite a few skills here, including two elites, that give paragons almost nothing. there are all sorts of conditions in the attribute line along with an easily appliable daze. This would be great if a paragon was any good with spar attcks, unfortunately they arent. I guaruntee that a ranger could easily out dps a paragon any day (packhunter anyone?) along with several other classes. The bane of the attribute line is that its useless because of the incapability of paragons to run anything other than a main spec in motivation and command. What i think the majority of you that think this was not a bad nerf are overlooking is the paragons use in a party. by gimping the skills that were nered, they intriduced harsh competition from other classes occupying the party slots that paragons used to own. On a partywide aspect, the paragon is better replaced with another utility character. One other consiquences of this nerf is the insurgence of almost one specific team build (searing flames) in HA. before, monks had no problem dealing with the pressure that an sf group put out, almost exclusively due to the pressure supression of paragons along with the massive loads of energy that paragons gave to monks to counteract the energy needed to upkeep a party against that much damage. so in one update, paragons were almost completely removed from HA and one party build reigns supreme. I think the easiest way to fix this is just to go back to 8 man party halls. Oh if only anet listened.
B Ephekt
Actually, the spear line is pretty nice for spikes. I don't think the paraon was ever meant to be a long ranged pressure class though, outside of their easily applied conditions. Many people have been running paragons to buff offense in pressure builds, however; things like Go For The Eyes and Find Their Weakness are amazing in that regard. Go For The Eyes gives melee classes with 16 weapon mastery about a 90% chance to critical every 3 seconds, and Find Their Weakness is an almost guaranteed deep wound. Dervishes under a high specced GFTE is absolutely ridiculous damage without dedicating an attack skill to it.
Defensive buffs are still quite viable: Stand Your Ground, a decently specced Watch Yourself (Paragons CAN put points into Tactics, you know?), Incoming, They're on Fire (in a build with the burning condition) and Angelic Bond are all very good ways to reduce pressure. The Motivation "restoration" skills are still there, untouched, as well. The "battery" aspect of the motivation line has been reduced but still allows for 2 monks to gain a respectable amount of energy over time, provided the build has enough shouts. I don't think the issue is paragons being underpowered at this point, I think the problem is players who lack an understand of game mechanics and only want an easy way to be nearly invunerable. As for SF, yes it is annoying fighting it on almost every map, but it's ridiculously easy to beat. No decent monk should have an issue with these builds, if they are then you should be looking for better monks, or a whole new party. Tombs is dead now anyway, and I doubt it will ever be worth playing again unless you're trying to grind out your tiger against NPCs so you can feel leet. Time to move over to GvG if you haven't already, imo.
Keilious Ahruhk
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Originally Posted by Avarre
Stygian Veil, against the packs of Touchers. Takes all of 5 seconds to notice that.
Buuuuh... Never been to this Stygian Veil place.
Even so, a skill that's only of use in one area in the entire game seems silly to me. Its not a matter of the paragon having some useless skills in PvE, its a matter of the paragon having far more useless skills than other classes. To put it on even footing, lets compare with a dervish. Armor of Sanctity - Great Aura of Thorns - Great Conviction - Great Dust Cloak - Great Ebon Dust Aura {E} - Great Fleeting Stability - Pretty useless Mirage Cloak - Great Mystic Regeneration - Great Mystic Sandstorm - Great Pious Concentration - Debatably Useless Sand Shards - Very good in 50% of the game, very useless in the other 50% Signet of Pious Light - Could be put to fairly good use Staggering Force - Great Veil of Thorns - Great Vital Boon - Great Arcane Zeal - I really don't know, I don't play a dervish, do they have energy problems? O.o All the avatars - Great, obviously Balthazar's Rage - Great Eremite's Zeal - Once again, dunno if they have energy problems Extend Enchantments - Lots of fun Faithful Intervention - Great Heart of Fury - IAS? How can I lose? Heart of Holy Flame - Great Imbue Health - Its like Infuse without sacrifice or div. favour, great Meditation - Great Mystic Corruption - Seems fruity, I'll say its useless to be fair Mystic Vigor - Great Pious Haste - Great Pious Renewal - Another energy one, I dunno Vow of Silence - Horray! I cannot be healed! D: Watchful Intervention - Can't go wrong with this one Zealous Renewal - Great Banishing Strike - Of somewhat limited usefulness, depending on where you are Chilling Victory - Great Crippling Sweep - Eh. Crippled isn't so great in PvE Eremite's Attack - As with all attacks with an activation time, awesome. Irresistible Sweep - Great Lyssa's Assault - Its free, I guess... Mystic Sweep - Great Pious Assault - There are better ways of using your enchantments, methinks, but still good, this one is. Reap Impurities - Great Reaper's Sweep - Eh, stuff dies a bit too fast for this to really matter, but at least its got a low recharge Rending Sweep - Seems pretty useless for PvE Twin Moon Sweep - Great Victorious Sweep - Free healing, yay! Wearying Strike - Useless Wounding Strike - Great Attacker's Insight - Seems pretty useless to me Dwayna's Touch - Pretty much just a self heal Enchanted Haste - Great Featherfoot Grace - As above, but an enchantment rather than a stance, unfortunately Grenth's Fingers - Great Grenth's Grasp {E} - Somewhat limited use in PvE, but still okay, I guess. Guiding Hands - Useless Harrier's Grasp - Useless Harrier's Haste - Somewhat okay, enemies don't move that much before they die anyway though. Initiate's Blessing - Something random to through into a build, seems okay. Lyssa's Haste - I have no idea, but it doesn't seem too bad. Mystic Healing - Half a heal party for 5? Great! Mystic Twister - Great etc etc, I'm too lazy to keep going. The thing is, I only even listed the absolute worst paragon skills in my last post, even more of our skills have a good, but extremely limited use. As you can see from my long, out-of-place list, other classes DO have more useful skills. :/
Div
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Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
Heck, if people DO choose other skills and find a way to make say...
"Brace Yourself!" "Can't Touch This!" "Help Me!" "Make Haste!" Song of Concentration Angelic Protection Awe Enduring Harmony "The Power is Yours!" {E} (Don't bring up focus swapping, its still terrible) Leader's Zeal Lyric of Zeal/Lyric of Purification Purifying finale Song of Power Harrier's Toss Unblockable Throw Stunning Strike or Wearying Spear ...So much as remotely useful in PvE, I'll be happy. Make haste- for running scenarios, especially if you have 2 paragons with each other. song of conc- for ms, firestorm, etc angelic protection- 2 esurges coming from roaring ethers can do 140 damage awe- enemy monks and casters to make killing easier enduring harmony- are u serious, or are u just plain stupid leaders zeal- compare with ether signet. i'd use leaders zeal any day. purifying finale- perfect condition removal i'm not gonna bother to keep going. if you really want, people can give longer lists of more useless skills than these paragon ones from other professions. it's just like how energy drain and the rest of the inspiration line was hugely nerfed, people will have to deal with it and find better alternatives, not dwell in the past and whine like a baby ok, just to shut your whiny ass, how often do u see these ele skills being used a lot in pve compared to the paragon ones listed: blinding flash, gale, storm djinns haste, energy boon, ether prism, ether prod, ether renewal, armor of frost, blurred vision, oh wait the entire water and earth magic line outside of some earth skills for farming/tanking, glyph of sac, second wind Spura
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
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Originally Posted by holymasamune
enduring harmony- are u serious, or are u just plain stupid
That's what he should be asking you. How many shouts profit from extending duration by 50% on a single target that you would spend a slot and resources in game for it.
NONE. Unless you decide you wanna go through the chore and immense energy expense of keeping this up on all team. More power to you then.
Keilious Ahruhk
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
song of conc- for ms, firestorm, etc angelic protection- 2 esurges coming from roaring ethers can do 140 damage awe- enemy monks and casters to make killing easier enduring harmony- are u serious, or are u just plain stupid leaders zeal- compare with ether signet. i'd use leaders zeal any day. purifying finale- perfect condition removal |
Song of Concentration - Sure, if you have your entire team in PvE on TS, otherwise, timing this one will be a massive pain.
Angelic Protection - You've now saved one of the 5-odd targets which were hit... Point taken, I guess.
Awe - Nothing lives long enough in PvE for daze to make any difference. Just take a hero with interrupts, if you REALLY need to int that badly.
Enduring Harmony - Of course I'm serious. What's the point? Its safe to say that its useless for chants, as they're a trigger thing, and spending time to extend the length of Watch Yourself or Incoming on ONE target seems silly to me, especially considering Incoming is an anti-spike thing, so you don't have time to waste.
Leader's Zeal - Ether Signet doesn't COST energy to start off with, LZ does.
Purifying finale - Err, are you REALLY being hit by THAT many conditions in PvE? Just hit Cautery signet, or get your monk to tap Mend condition.
Quote: Originally Posted by holymasamune i'm not gonna bother to keep going. if you really want, people can give longer lists of more useless skills than these paragon ones from other professions. it's just like how energy drain and the rest of the inspiration line was hugely nerfed, people will have to deal with it and find better alternatives, not dwell in the past and whine like a baby
ok, just to shut your whiny ass, how often do u see these ele skills being used a lot in pve compared to the paragon ones listed:
blinding flash, gale, storm djinns haste, energy boon, ether prism, ether prod, ether renewal, armor of frost, blurred vision, oh wait Charming.
Blinding Flash - Of course somewhat limited in usefulness, but its still great to disable pesky warriors while you eliminate the enemy casters.
Gale - Stop the enemy from moving, stop the enemy from casting, while you beat down and kill it within those couple of seconds, I see no problem here.
Storm Djinn's Haste - Okay, one elem skill that's useless in PvE, noted.
Energy boon, Ether Prism, Ether prod - Last I checked, elem spells cost alot of energy, and these spells give alot of energy, what's the problem?
Armor of frost - Its... 40 extra armour. Why wouldn't you like 40 extra armour?
Blurred Vision - See Blinding Flash
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Granted though, a prot monk will always take reversal and guardian.
Practically any good PvE monk build includes ROF. Pure-heal monk builds are not good builds.
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Originally Posted by SparhawkJC
Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1. - Again how many paragons actually brought this with them on their regular bar.
You're kidding right? EF was one of the best things for Paras other than being a WY/GFTE spammer. I'm beginning to seriously doubt you've properly played a Para per-nerf before.|
Originally Posted by holymasamune
the entire water and earth magic line outside of some earth skills for farming/tanking, glyph of sac, second wind
Earth has quite a few buffs, in addition to the infamous wards, and lets not forget things like Earthquake, Obsidian flame, stoning... The list goes on.
Water hexes are even required for some air skills to function at full effectiveness. In addition, why not hit your enemies with a slowing hex and then rain some firey death upon them? Then their AOE AI pops up, but they can't get away. Lets not be forgetting the Water armours, as well as maelstrom (seeing as you said that interrupting monks in PvE is very important) oinkers
I have to agree with the OP - Paragons are the new Rits - they're useless now for most things after the nerf. I've been playing GW since chests needed no keys to open and everyone got an item from it, and the pattern of nerfs is very noticeable - rangers/monks never get nerfed significantly. Only significant nerf rangers got was the EoE change, which was comparatively minor if you consider how eles have been nerfed into the ground until recently. Necros still get all the action in Tombs, SF, FoW, UW and you name it. Monks never get touched - except for the minor spirit bonder thing. Rits - the whole resto/communing line got nuked due to higher energy costs. 5 energy to cast spirit light? Whats the point if your spirits are gonna cost 25 to bring up?
Paragons occupy that uneasy space between warriors, rangers and monks. It's a very cramped space and the nerfs have obliterated the paragons as far as I can see. Here's the reasons why I shall be deleting my paragon. Energizing Finale should return 2 energy instead 1 considering its high energy cost and duration. As it stands, it takes up 1 too many slots on a skillbar. Incoming is useless in PvE, duration is still too short in PvP. Recharge times suck heavily. 2 bips regen is laugahble on a small energy pool. The only synergistic second profession was warrior, and the only skill that worth was running (WY) is also totally nerfed. Putting points in tactics is hard because you need to buff up the main lines so hard to get a decent effect in the first place. P/Mo? yeah right. No hex removal at all - hexbreaker aria works on others. Party wide buffs are ill-thought out. Song of Resto only heals for 100 odd? weak. Song of Purification removes 1 condition? weak. Song of Power needs 25 energy and terminates prematurely? very weak. Most songs are elite? crap. The whole spear line is utterly useless, worse than channeling for rits before the buff. ANet may recognise this, but when the buff arrives it will be too late - like for the rits. All the spear skills look like clones of each other - there's no variation, no room to innovate. All deal lousy damage, all seem to have a preoccupation with deep wound or bleeding. Too easy to block spear attacks and the attack rate is too low to deal any decent damage. No AoE at all. DoA will likely not need paragons at all, as the core classes from Tyria are still more powerful. Look at the DoA builds and you will see no slots for Paragons at all. In terms of damage, you have to rely on GFTE and your team members - this is absolutely crud. You can't buff them good enough after the nerf, you can't deal any decent damage from the start, Paragons are dead on arrival. So to sum up, you can't do anything as well as the other core classes and the one thing that might have included you in a user group was party wide buffing which doesn't really work effectively anymore. Shame, as I've spent so much on vabbian armour for my Para. I'm getting really annoyed at ANet now - most of my chars have been nerfed so hard because they haven't thought out how the new classes will inter play with the core ones. I regret ever making a Rit and Para - both are now useless at support, and non-core and therefore getting impossible to find groups for. To Gaile - whats the point of a paragon anymore? I can find poorly configured core classes that work better in every PvE mission in all the chapters.
OlMurraniKasale
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Originally Posted by oinkers
Paragons occupy that uneasy space between warriors, rangers and monks. It's a very cramped space and the nerfs have obliterated the paragons as far as I can see.
Here's the reasons why I shall be deleting my paragon. To Gaile - whats the point of a paragon anymore? I can find poorly configured core classes that work better in every PvE mission in all the chapters. I cut your quote down to the three basic elements so I can use them in my post - these apply big-time. 1) I finally found a somewhat useful Paragon build (and it was actually discontinued in GuildWiki, under P/W Centurion). I had to slug my way through Domain of Fear, dying every which way at EACH mob. I mean SLUG. It took hours, and I and all my peeps were at -60. It was the Shiro's Master quest. I saved the spirits of two, then headed over the span towards the Gate of Secrets. Somewhere along that FUBAR mobs-fest, someone got too close to the gate and poof! The quest was over, reset, have to do again. Guess what ANet, ain't gonna happen. Abandoned! 2) Everytime I enter a zone, I think "just delete this stupid toon." On the other hand, who knows, ANet may pull their head out of their collective assets long enough to make the Paragon a little more realistically useful. I'm pulling up my old Factions warrior to play that. At least I know it can't be nerfed into oblivion - just build nerfs, not whole character class nerfed. 3) Gaile: Too few builds that work worth a damn - not an equal playing partner. Why would I subject my playing PUGS to my uselessness. I'd rather go to the Domain of Torment as a level 5 toon that deal with my Paragon even one more moment. Go back to the drawing board. pingu666
my pve para is fine, mind i only used 1 of the nerf skills..
Riotgear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
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Like Gust, which is crap, and Arc Lightning, which is also crap. Your point?
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Energizing Finale should return 2 energy instead 1 considering its high energy cost and duration. As it stands, it takes up 1 too many slots on a skillbar.
Energizing Finale is not an energy management skill, it's a BUFF, just like Blood Ritual. And in that sense, it was disgustingly overpowered before.
Keilious Ahruhk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riotgear
Like Gust, which is crap, and Arc Lightning, which is also crap. Your point?
Your notes on the effectiveness of what are obviously PvP skills in PvE is completely ridiculous. Final Thrust is a bad PvE skill, does that make it a BAD skill? Hell no. For PvE, just bring Aggressive Refrain and some fast-recharging chant like Burning Anthem to keep it alive, give your war hero Watch Yourself, and go kill. I'm not having any problem. Er, there's nothing wrong with Gust, in my opinion at least. If water hexes only affected one target, then yeah, it'd be pretty lame, but the fact is, its a cheap gale without exhaustion, and does damage. Lightning Touch is also very powerful. Your point about that axis of skills is somewhat redundant, the very thing I'm upset with is the fact that everyone (read: The vast majority of people) has to pack Aggressive Refrain, Burning Anthem and/or Watch Yourself to be effective. Sure, there are one or two more "essential skills" to add to that list, GftE is one. Now, the next point I'm sure someone will bring up is "But monks have essential skills too lol that they have to pack or they suck lol lol lol!!1!eleventy" I'll cross that bridge when we come to it though. Edit: Incidently, I'm fine with EF being balanced now. However, I don't see the justification for raising its cost to 10. The problem with it was that it gave too much energy, not that it was being spammed everywhere. Even now, you can comfortably put it on 3+ people if you so choose. But I'm not here to whinge about that, this is just my 2c on the matter. oinkers
[QUOTE=Riotgear
Energizing Finale is not an energy management skill, it's a BUFF, just like Blood Ritual. And in that sense, it was disgustingly overpowered before.[/QUOTE] Returning 1 energy is not a buff. It may have been overpowered before, but it's totally useless now. Of all the so-called buffs the para should be able to do, energy is now arguably the weakest. EF is not even party wide. I repeat my assertion that Paragons are not front-line (despite their armor), not core (because they dont heal or do damage well unlike the 6 primary classes), and can't even support properly these days. Which means they are simply a non-character.
Riotgear
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Originally Posted by oinkers
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"Returning"? You missed the point completely. My point is that EF is not there to be used on yourself to recover energy. You don't need an echo for energy management, that's what your primary is for. The whole idea of it is that in a team build with 2 paragons, there are going to be enough shouts and chants flying around to provide a good deal of energy gain from it.
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Now, the next point I'm sure someone will bring up is "But monks have essential skills too lol that they have to pack or they suck lol lol lol!!1!eleventy" I'll cross that bridge when we come to it though. Cross it now, please. Every one of my PvE characters has AT LEAST one skill that has practically never left their bar.
B Ephekt
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Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
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You don't bring touchers to PvE. Distracting shot goes on any bar I make that has a bow.|
The whole spear line is utterly useless, worse than channeling for rits before the buff. ANet may recognise this, but when the buff arrives it will be too late - like for the rits. All the spear skills look like clones of each other - there's no variation, no room to innovate. All deal lousy damage, all seem to have a preoccupation with deep wound or bleeding. Too easy to block spear attacks and the attack rate is too low to deal any decent damage. No AoE at all.
Actually, a paragon with an IAS and 16 spear mastery can deal a pretty respectible amount of damage. Also, there are a number of +42 damage spear skills. Spear attacks are quite good if you put some thought into how to use them. Sadly most people seem to think they should be a warrior that can attack at range, which is quite stupid imo. And how exactly do you expect a spear, which is a single target projectile, to deal aoe damage? Quote:
At best you will waste some energy of touchers, at worst you will do nothing because touchers will go for your team. Either way effect is way too small. "Can't touch this" is only good vs shock, and decent against blackout, expunge enchantments etc in pvp, that is till they just pick on some other target. In pve too many monsters for this shout to counter anything, they have energy to spare.
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Lets start one by one. Warriors: They have entirely different trees which are mutually exclusive, so there's no one "needed skill" Rangers: Although they have a fixed skill "arrangement", ie. take one defensive stand, take two or three bow attacks, you have alot of options in terms of which skills will fill those slots. Even then, the variations of builds pretty much nullify the "required skill" idea. Trappers, Touchers, Thumpers, Int-ers. Monks: Not unlike warriors, due to their different "trees", they don't have a "required skill" per se. (though some would argue Signet of Devotion is one such skill). Granted though, a prot monk will always take reversal and guardian. Mesmers: I'm terribly inexperienced with mesmers, so rather than make a fool of myself, I won't comment. EDIT: Oh, I suppose some of the inspiration e-management skills might be must-haves, like energy tap... Elementalists: Like warriors, different "trees", so while within those trees there may be must-haves (lightning orb, fireball), the rule doesn't apply to these guys. Necromancers: Much like elementalists and warriors. You typically choose one attribute, put points in it, and soul reaping. Within each attribute there are skills which are close to must-haves, such as Shadow of Fear/Faintheartedness Assassins: There really is no argument against me for this one, you typically have a lead, off-hand and dual, and there are plenty of each. Some would argue that Shadow refuge is must a must have, I say learn to shadow-step. Ritualists: Another class I'm not too experienced with, but I'm fairly sure you can at least either go with spirits or with weapon spells. Dervish: Similar explanation to Assassin or Warrior. Now you might say, "sure, but like paragons, they have a small number of skills which are 'must haves'". Granted. But the "must-haves" of paragons are all either in one attribute, or in ANOTHER CLASS. Now that's just fruity, don't you think? Quote: | |
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Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Actually, a paragon with an IAS and 16 spear mastery can deal a pretty respectible amount of damage. Also, there are a number of +42 damage spear skills. Spear attacks are quite good if you put some thought into how to use them.
Really now? Can you name 2 spear attacks which do that kind of damage (without a negative side-effect) which you can have all of on your skillbar at the same time?  EDIT: well rather than be an obnoxious jerk, I'll just continue this right in this post: The only skills which do +42 without negative side effects are BOTH elite, ie. the only spear elites. The remaining two attacks both has hideous negative effects. One has a 3 second activation time, and the other weakens you for 20 seconds. Quote:
I'd be insane to run an offensive build without flail. I'd be insane to run a tank build without dolyak sig.
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So another brain-damaged skill to add to the long list of already semi-useful-but-not-really-ones-I'd-use skills. Fine. You're not making the Paragon anymore convincing to run as a char.|
Like warriors, different "trees", so while within those trees there may be must-haves (lightning orb, fireball), the rule doesn't apply to these guys.
Elemental attunement. Or SF. Quote:
If you're gonna put 16 in spear, you're gonna have to cut down seriously on motivation - which makes you a spear chucker. Fine. Compare DPS and tell me they are better than even channeling Rits - they're not. How's does a spear do AoE damage? It doesn't, that's one reason why it sucks. I vote for something like Barrage for spears - at least Rangers have better damage on supposedly 'single target projectile' arrows.
GFTE is very nice to use, although you get shutdown easily with Vocal Minority - with no spammable hex breakers on Paras this is a real downer. Plus, GFTE's real strength is in relying on the rest of the party to do damage - hardly a first class skill on its own. OoP or OoD on necros would be even better than this half-thought out line. I'm going to repeat that my original points which haven't been addressed. Paragons are begining to look like Rits - supposedly "flexible", not very good in any one area and dropping out of PUGs fast. I'm gonna quote Sparhawk to illustrate how many of you have missed the point entirely: Quote: |
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You've basically agreed that most of the useful skills have been nerfed, because the stats speak for themsevles. But you then overlay it with a subjective opinion that says they're still "good". I think you'll find that PUGs will come round to the fact that Paras aren't really good party buffers anymore, and that primary monks/eles/bips will dish out more healing/damage/energy (in that order) more effectively than a second-rate char occupying a precious slot.
ANet, where's the beef? Where's the compelling build to run like MM/SS for Necros, or barrager for rangers, or nukers for Eles?
I'm gonna quote Sparhawk to illustrate how many of you have missed the point entirely:
Quote: Originally Posted by SparhawkJC Aria of Zeal: Increased casting time to 2 seconds - Seriously though how many paragons actually brought this skill with them. I would say a good 75% of PvE paragons go with command over motivation anyways. So another brain-damaged skill to add to the long list of already semi-useful-but-not-really-ones-I'd-use skills. Fine. You're not making the Paragon anymore convincing to run as a char.
Quote: Originally Posted by SparhawkJC Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1. - Again how many paragons actually brought this with them on their regular bar. You're kidding right? EF was one of the best things for Paras other than being a WY/GFTE spammer. I'm beginning to seriously doubt you've properly played a Para per-nerf before.
Quote: Originally Posted by SparhawkJC Incoming: Increased Energy cost to 10 and decreased duration to 1..5 seconds. - It now takes more timing to use, while still being a good skill. Subjective. Many people would say Incoming is only useful for PvP now (see rest of thread), and I'd go even further to say it's wasted as an elite entirely even in PvP.
You've basically agreed that most of the useful skills have been nerfed, because the stats speak for themsevles. But you then overlay it with a subjective opinion that says they're still "good". I think you'll find that PUGs will come round to the fact that Paras aren't really good party buffers anymore, and that primary monks/eles/bips will dish out more healing/damage/energy (in that order) more effectively than a second-rate char occupying a precious slot.
ANet, where's the beef? Where's the compelling build to run like MM/SS for Necros, or barrager for rangers, or nukers for Eles?
Quote: Originally Posted by Spura Basically you have spear skills which are crap, party heals + condition removal which are inferior to heal party+extinguish spammer, bunch of small utility which is too specialised and usually ineffective at what it does("can't touch this, angelic protection etc) and energy skills which is the only thing paragon does better than other classes. Well these were nerfed now. So that is why people don't like this nerf. Energizing finale was overpowered but battery was all paragon was useful for because every other aspect of paragon is inferior to some other profession. And you can't have them all either(don't have the slots or attributes to be medium damage medium healing).
Agreed. I'd add to that that paragon party-wide heals (*** of Resto) are inferior to E/Mo running as prodigy/HP pumpers. Song of Purification? Pffft - get Extinguish already!
There are only a few things you can buff the party with:
1. Health - inferior in almost every respect, even to Resto Rits running Attuned was Songkai
2. Energy - nerfed. BIPs are still supreme.
3. Armor - nerfed. Only synergistic skill was the lonely WY anyway.
4. Damage - spear line is like poking people with toothpicks. GFTE might still be the best thing going for a Para, but that's neither here nor there when you consider what OoP/OoD can do on necros.
Paragons are not really compelling. None of the builds are must-haves like MMs or nukers or booners. You'll have to agree at some point with the original issue I raised: Paragons are the new Rits (post-nerf).
Quote: Originally Posted by Riotgear Practically any good PvE monk build includes ROF. Pure-heal monk builds are not good builds. Counter example: In the Deep, monks are almost always pure heal WoH/HP pumpers. You won't find bonders or boon prots in that high end PVE mission. RoF? eeesh....
I'm gonna quote Sparhawk to illustrate how many of you have missed the point entirely:
Quote: Originally Posted by SparhawkJC
Aria of Zeal: Increased casting time to 2 seconds - Seriously though how many paragons actually brought this skill with them. I would say a good 75% of PvE paragons go with command over motivation anyways.
So another brain-damaged skill to add to the long list of already semi-useful-but-not-really-ones-I'd-use skills. Fine. You're not making the Paragon anymore convincing to run as a char.
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However at 10 energy they are too expensive for what they do now. Otherwise I don't mind the EF nerf that much.|
Originally Posted by SparhawkJC
Energizing Finale: Increased the Energy cost to 10 and reduced the amount of energy gained per shout or chant to 1. - Again how many paragons actually brought this with them on their regular bar.
You're kidding right? EF was one of the best things for Paras other than being a WY/GFTE spammer. I'm beginning to seriously doubt you've properly played a Para per-nerf before.
Incoming isn't meant to be a non-removable Life Barrier; it's meant to stop the amount of damage a spike does, or to give your monks some reprieve from a lot of heavy pressure.Quote:
Actually I think restoration isn't about party heals, it is about spot heals. They are freaking powerful.
Quote: Energizing Finale wasn't meant to outperform a necro with an elite skill, it was meant to add enough energy to be viable, but not so much that it granted unlimited energy to the target. NoO matter how much you whine or rationalize, when a non-elite skill can grant more constant energy gain than an elite, you know it's broken. |
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Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Look at the paragon skills, and consider what attribute they're placed under. A command paragon can buff his party's defense, buff their offense, and still run a constant IAS with 9 spear mastery and deal damage.
That lame build with 9 spear everyone runs is just pathetic. I do more damage with conjure fire and wand on elementalist. Quote:
You're missing my point, which is that paragon is clearly a support class. They can help with damage negation, increasing their party's damage output and still do some damage themselves. They're not intended to be a DPS powerhouse or replace a monk; they're there to aid the other classes in doing their jobs. The problem here lies not with paragons being underpowered, but rather with misconceptions of certain players as to what the paragon should be. (Which is unfortunately a problem that can't be fixed with a game update.)
I will admit that paragons are sort of like mesmers and rits, in that they're not so great for pve, but can be quite useful in pvp. Quote: |
You're right apparently, which is why NOBODY takes paragons into pvp anymore. Oh wait, they actually do... sorry.
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Actually I think restoration isn't about party heals, it is about spot heals. They are freaking powerful.
Actually, I think you missed my point. The paragon restoration skills are about dumb party heals, though. They're there to alleviate some pressure from the party and the monk's energy bars. Quote:
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