Actually I was replying to oinker's posts, and only said that he "seemed" to want that.
And again, the point still stands. Don't assume what I want unless I actually say it, it's only 8bit ASCII you're reading, not some mystical pink hippo train into my mind.
Your responses make it clear you care about PvP only which is roughly in-line with ANet's actions, so that must be OK somehow. I suppose. Maybe.
Paragons are dead-on-arrival. They're not finding teams in DoA which ANet must have foreseen due to cookie cutter MoF builds and getting into teams elsewhere in PvE is so hard now it's more fun to do something else instead of waiting around.
You'll find more and more people gradually realising this, and Paragons will fade away, perhaps even more quickly than Rits in factions.
You want to play niche supporting roles in PvP? Fine. That simply does not make it a viable class in the long run.
LightningHell
(????????????)???
Join Date: Aug 2005
Hong Kong
Guildless
Mo/
05 Dec 2006 at 01:01 - 82
Wow, six consecutive posts. Merged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
Counter example: In the Deep, monks are almost always pure heal WoH/HP pumpers. You won't find bonders or boon prots in that high end PVE mission. RoF? eeesh....
I don't know, one mission doesn't really make it.
oinkers
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
05 Dec 2006 at 01:08 - 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
I don't know, one mission doesn't really make it.
One counter example is all is needed to make people stop making absolute statements, particularly when it's painfully clear they have no experience running monk chars.
You prefer less succint answers? Florid verbiage to make exactly the same point? Maybe that explains the paragon fans love of painfully scraping out +1e on a 10e cost spell.
Lordhelmos
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
Sentients of Shadow (noir)
Me/E
05 Dec 2006 at 01:41 - 84
Paragons were not nerfed, they were balanced. Paragon Holdway was rediculous in HA prior to the update. There were newbie teams holding halls for 7 consecutive rounds just running a Motivation/Command spam on paragons, they pretty much shut ritualists out of business. Paragons are still a damn good class, and just like dervish they require skill to play. Spamming shouts wont save a party but timing them can take huge amounts of pressure of monks and power the team.
~Unlike Ritualists you cannot kill a shout like you can with a spirit. Shouts are instant effects and unstrippable buffs. A ritualist cannot match that and instead protects in a unique way by creating longer lasting spirits with a radius. Vocal Minority and a few key hexes and wells are the only things stopping a paragon from doing its job. Paragons are still great support and have a different way of functioning than ritualists. Some shouts like Incoming or elites like Angelic Bond can be vital in saving key targets or surviving a spike. I like to think of a command paragon as an SB infuse who doesnt sacc life and instead times a shout to counter a massive enemy pressure attack. Paragons can and still make and break games. If you come out here telling me that paragons are useless you need your head examined. Just look at spells like Aria of Zeal and Song of Restoration. Paragons are great pressure diffusers and save lives on teams. That 8 energy makes a huge difference when your RC prot is out of range of channeling and has barely enough energy to throw on Prot Spirit to save himself.
~From a PvE standpoint, Paragons have great armor and defensive buffs. More people SHOULD be taking paragons in DoA missions because some of their buffs directly counter some of the DoA world effects (i.e. stand your ground! in the foundry). Paragons also have damaging spear attacks and can play party protecter and break key stances like shiro's battle scars with wild throw. Stunning Strike is also a good dazer and can catch casters off guard. Also don't undermind the power of Incoming in PvE. I've seen incoming save fleeting teams hurting from a triple aggro.
~Paragons dont suck, you just have players inexperienced in using them. You cannot judge a potential of a class by the majority of newbie users. Make a paragon and try one yourself. Get a feel for the class and you learn to appreciate its role and understand its workings. I bet half the rants against paragons after the nerf are from non paragon players or HA players that have used nothing BUT the paragon holdway build and never tried to explore the classes other aspects. Paragons have LOADS of potential in PVP and PVE. So no Anet does not hate Paragons.
Kaane
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: May 2005
Seattle, WA
I Righteous Indignation I [RI]
W/A
05 Dec 2006 at 02:02 - 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
Paragons are dead-on-arrival. They're not finding teams in DoA which ANet must have foreseen due to cookie cutter MoF builds and getting into teams elsewhere in PvE is so hard now it's more fun to do something else instead of waiting around.
I stopped reading here because it's clear you have no frakking clue what you're talking about.
I certainly don't have any problems finding a group.
InfernalSuffering
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Inadequately Equipped [GeAr]
05 Dec 2006 at 02:07 - 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
Come up with a must have build that only Paragons excel in, and not some so-so healing here, so-so armor buff there. Make me a build that's as famous as nukers, or boon prots or meatbag tanks.
The entire problem with this e-conversation is that you just made my point. NUKING is not a build. BEING A MEATBAG is not a build. The paragons excel in that unknown element, that entire team buff that can rarely be stopped. Paragons werent created to be a meatbag or to hurl lightning, fire, or water out of the sky. They were created to buff.
Quote:
At least those classes have a FUNCTION. A Paragon has NOTHING that can't be replaced by others doing it BETTER without wasting a char slot.
Paragons
1. don't do melee damage like warriors can, can't rake thru enemies like dervs can
2. can't do AoE like nukers and SS can
3. can't spot heal/split-second infuse like monks can
4. can't mass prot like rits can
5. can't spike damage like sins can
6. can't provide meatbags like MMs can
That's a lot of can'ts.
And monks cant....
1. don't do melee damage like warriors can, can't rake thru enemies like dervs can
2. can't do AoE like nukers and SS can
3. can't provide team-wide buffs like paragons can
4. can't mass prot like rits can
5. can't spike damage like sins can
6. can't provide meatbags like MMs can
YOU CAN DO THE SAME THING FOR EVERY CLASS!
Quote:
There's a reason why warriors and eles and monks are still around and outnumber the new professions - the game wasn't really designed with the 4 newer ones in mind and it shows.
I won't say that I dont have a warrior, ele, monk, ranger, mesmer, and necro because I do. But I also know that over the last few weeks I have come to know and appreciate the job a paragon can do for a group. Maybe if you gave them a little bit more of a chance and left your mind not so jammed shut then you would see that paragons arent just yesterdays trash.
B Ephekt
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2006
Team Crystalline [TC]
Mo/
05 Dec 2006 at 02:16 - 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
One counter example is all is needed to make people stop making absolute statements, particularly when it's painfully clear they have no experience running monk chars.
Who or what is this even directed towards?
LightningHell
(????????????)???
Join Date: Aug 2005
Hong Kong
Guildless
Mo/
05 Dec 2006 at 02:27 - 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Who or what is this even directed towards?
I don't know. Probably himself.
Guessing you're commenting about the Aspect of Shadows, monks can function without RoF, they're just a lot worse off. A usual Blessed Light loses what? Prot Spirit and Reversal of Fortune? S/He still gets Blessed Light, Mend Ailment, Signet of Devotion, Gift of Health. Plus whatever secondary skills.
Granted, Prot Spirit isn't what you want to lose.
crucifix
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Oct 2006
Ohio
R/Mo
05 Dec 2006 at 03:18 - 89
this got nicely otu of hand, but let me see if i can make one thing clear: If you play PvE, and you claim that the nerf didn't hurt/ hinder much at all, then the build you are using is shit, or you are just an idiot. If you are PvPer and say that the paragon nerf didn't hurt, then uninstall the game and never play an mmorpg ever again.
in short: if you think the Paragon nerf was inneffective and didn;t hurt anything, then you are wrong.
btw: if you have played an SoR para recently you should know how bad energy is to manage now. the reason that the parawide buffs were remotely useful was because of the spammability of these skills.
Khaunshar
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Nov 2006
Legacy of Corvus
Rt/Me
05 Dec 2006 at 03:34 - 90
Well gentlemen, Paragon since NF release, every elite, Protector of Elona, and 2 out of 4 DoA quests done.. and not regretting it one bit.
Fact is, though, that PvE outside the elite areas, and MAYBE the Raisu Palace/Realms of Torment area, is so easy that it does not matter really whether a a skill has +10, +20 or +42 bonus damage on it.
So, when you are saying PvE, you obviously mean the elite areas, as anything else is simple. If you have trouble beating other content with your paragon, I believe the fault is not the class design, but the playstyle.
In elite areas (I havent been to the Deep with Paragon yet, though) you are right, the specialist classes outdo the paragon at their specialty. Actually, the one single class of an expansion that is NOT beat by their core class competitor is the Assassin for single target damage. All other expansion classes are "hybrids", so to speak.
The recent nerf did not change the gameplay in those elite areas for paragons, and actually not much in any PvE area, simply because these skills that got nerfed are not crucial at all. "Incoming" being the one thats probably the most-used command elite and pretty influential on PvE is still able to do what it was designed to be (catching the initial spike of damage, or covering the gap in a Ritualists spirits etc.), it wasnt blanket protection without gaps before, it isnt now.
Paragons, as Assassins, Mesmers, Ritualists, Dervishes have a place in a group. However, that place is not a must-have. And you ll notice that, aside from Monks in the elite areas (as Ritualist healing has never been accepted, and Ritualists are too few to fill a group with anyway) every class can be replaced.
But, the core classes were there first. So unless an expansion class beats them at their territory, and thus undisputably is stronger than the core classes, it will not be accepted.
Its simply a fact that the GW community in large parts, especially PUGs, did never evolve beyond Sorrows Furnace. Its simply not needed. And when a core, and an expansion class, are tied for power, people take core, 9 times out of 10, as they are more familiar with it.
Paragons fit into every party if used well, but they are required in none. And I believe thats exactly how most classes were designed.
As for useful elites:
In PvE, "Incoming" or Cruel Spear really serve well outside elite areas. Inside elite areas, its a matter of supporting your party, and what aspect of your party you want to buff. Paragons arent overly elite-dependant though, which is a blessing in my book, so IMO Incoming, Hymn of Restoration (is that the name of the elite? I am using the german client) are the best candidates as nice allrounders.
Riotgear
has 3 pips of HP regen.
Join Date: Aug 2006
The Objective Is More [Cash]
W/
05 Dec 2006 at 04:13 - 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
Where did I ever say I was using EF on myself?
"Returning" implies you expect to be using it to recover energy spent. Kind of like how drain enchantment "returns" energy and blood ritual doesn't.
Quote:
In particular, you haven't addressed the small regen, small energy pool lack of hex removers, and underpowered/monotonuous spear line.
You don't need massive regen when most of your energy gain comes from shouts.
Quote:
How's does a spear do AoE damage? It doesn't, that's one reason why it sucks.
Being unable to do AOE damage does not make a damage line suck.
Quote:
GFTE is very nice to use, although you get shutdown easily with Vocal Minority - with no spammable hex breakers on Paras this is a real downer.
I thought we were talking PvE here? Regardless, complaining about hexes that are really annoying isn't a sign of imbalance. Monks aren't exactly big fans of diversion, shame, backfire, spoil victor, etc.
Either bring some hex removal or deal with it. It's not like shouts/chants have more than one viable counter.
Quote:
Plus, GFTE's real strength is in relying on the rest of the party to do damage - hardly a first class skill on its own. OoP or OoD on necros would be even better than this half-thought out line.
GFTE's real strength is that it costs 4 adrenaline and can be spammed for free energy. Just like WY. And of course, this was related to PvE, in that it provides a shout you can spam to keep aggressive refrain up without digging into your secondary.
Quote:
I'd go even further to say it's wasted as an elite entirely even in PvP.
You can tell just off of the description that it was designed as a spike-stopper. That's it. You don't need a spike-stopper in PvE. No one should have expected it to be useful in PvE.
Quote:
1. Health - inferior in almost every respect, even to Resto Rits running Attuned was Songkai
2. Energy - nerfed. BIPs are still supreme.
3. Armor - nerfed. Only synergistic skill was the lonely WY anyway.
4. Damage - spear line is like poking people with toothpicks. GFTE might still be the best thing going for a Para, but that's neither here nor there when you consider what OoP/OoD can do on necros.
Yes, please ignore that the first three only require one skill slot each. Mending Refrain can be kept up indefinitely on the entire party. BIP is an elite, EF and Aria of Zeal are not. If you need WY's armor buff, just put it on your tank, who is gonna have plenty invested in tactics anyway.
Quote:
None of the builds are must-haves like MMs or nukers or booners.
MMs are simply overpowered in most of PvE, until you hit the level 28 crap, at which point they're garbage. Paragons seem underwhelming because they lack concentrated punch, and because their effects aren't blatantly obvious like Rodgort's blowing up 10 mobs and lighting them on fire, or getting half of your health bar restored by WoH. It all adds up though, and just because you're not getting a light show when it happens doesn't mean it isn't.
Quote:
Counter example: In the Deep, monks are almost always pure heal WoH/HP pumpers. You won't find bonders or boon prots in that high end PVE mission. RoF? eeesh....
Just like I won't put d-shot on my runner builds. Special circumstances are irrelevant to my point.
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
One counter example is all is needed to make people stop making absolute statements, particularly when it's painfully clear they have no experience running monk chars.
I'm not being absolute, I'm trying to show that having one extremely good skill that's basically a staple is an occurance in practically every class. You don't neccessarily "need" aggressive refrain, hell, you're in the back, you could run Frenzy and get away with it. But the point is, being "confined" to put one skill on your bar is ridiculous. Especially when you're "confined" to having permanent +25% IAS, which is about as lame as whining that I'm "confined" to having a 5-energy interrupt that knocks a skill offline for 20 seconds.
oinkers
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
05 Dec 2006 at 07:18 - 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering
The entire problem with this e-conversation is that you just made my point. NUKING is not a build. ...
Nukers are a build. The fact you cannot name a decent one to run for Paragons in PvE means you're just messing about.
Quote:
And monks cant....
1. don't do melee damage like warriors can, can't rake thru enemies like dervs can
2. can't do AoE like nukers and SS can
3. can't provide team-wide buffs like paragons can
4. can't mass prot like rits can
5. can't spike damage like sins can
6. can't provide meatbags like MMs can
YOU CAN DO THE SAME THING FOR EVERY CLASS!
You're mad. I fail to see how Paragons can provide comparable healing as a monk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riotgear
You don't need massive regen when most of your energy gain comes from shouts.
You really dont read do you? I was casting EF on the party monks+eles, not me!
Quote:
I thought we were talking PvE here? Regardless, complaining about hexes that are really annoying isn't a sign of imbalance. Monks aren't exactly big fans of diversion, shame, backfire, spoil victor, etc. Either bring some hex removal or deal with it. It's not like shouts/chants have more than one viable counter.
I almost stopped reading at this point. Have you tried getting into DoA as a Para? It takes ages! Everyone wants monks+eles. Of course I'm taking about PvE. Try telling the monks they have to bring hex removal just to support a Para - you'll get booted faster then Vista off a flash drive.
Quote:
GFTE ...
You can tell just off of the description that it was designed as a spike-stopper. That's it. You don't need a spike-stopper in PvE. No one should have expected it to be useful in PvE.
As I was saying, you want to play a niche support role in PvP fine, but the Paragon is practically irrelevant in PvE now. It doesn't make a difference if a Para is in a group or not, he can be replaced with Alesia for the most part.
Quote:
BIP is an elite, EF and Aria of Zeal are not. If you need WY's armor buff, just put it on your tank, who is gonna have plenty invested in tactics anyway.
BIP give massive regen and is spammable. EF gives +1 each time shout/chant ends and Aria of Zeal is similarly too conditional and slow.
Quote:
It all adds up though, and just because you're not getting a light show when it happens doesn't mean it isnt.
What I see adding up is ANet's lack of attenton to Paragons. Here's another example - Focused Anger has no casting effect - looks like they couldn't even bother doing the graphics for another so-so paragon elite.
I notice all the people who disagree with me are primarily PvP players with no consideration for PvE. They implicitly agree that Paragons were nerfed, but somehow subjectively claim that it does not make a difference in PvE - truly mind boggling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaunshar
The recent nerf did not change the gameplay in those elite areas for paragons, and actually not much in any PvE area
I disagree, EF spamming was arguably fun and seen as a great help for the monks and eles. Now you can't use it like before, what other compelling builds exist? WY/GFTE?
Quote:
Paragons, as Assassins, Mesmers, Ritualists, Dervishes have a place in a group. However, that place is not a must-have.en
Finally, it's taken 5 pages to drum this into people. Paragons can be replaced on level par with sins and mesmers. That is how second-class it is. What I'm annoyed with is that Paragons were one of only 2 new classes in NF and only so-so to begin with. Now that they're nerfed, they're even weaker than they started out. ANet keep making new chapters with so-so classes because the game engine only properly supports the original core - everything else has been a fudge on top of the existing attributes.
Absolutely laughable.
Riotgear
has 3 pips of HP regen.
Join Date: Aug 2006
The Objective Is More [Cash]
W/
05 Dec 2006 at 08:34 - 93
Yay for triple post. Please learn to use the button.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
You really dont read do you? I was casting EF on the party monks+eles, not me!
Yes, I do read, you said:
Quote:
Energizing Finale should return 2 energy instead 1 considering its high energy cost and duration. As it stands, it takes up 1 too many slots on a skillbar.
That's it! You didn't say anything else about what you were using it on, and "return" implied you were using it on yourself. You do not make such a statement have merit by changing the context later.
Quote:
Everyone wants monks+eles.
Because people want crap they can understand. Like I said in my last post, it's not exactly obvious what a paragon is doing for you. I brought WY on my barrager back before they nerfed the armor gain, and that constant +20 armor dropped death counts significantly. I doubt anyone actually noticed though, because it doesn't produce the snazzy light show you get from, oh, Meteor Shower.
Go make a build that rapes the place that includes a paragon, and everyone will be copying it.
Quote:
Try telling the monks they have to bring hex removal just to support a Para - you'll get booted faster then Vista off a flash drive.
No, they don't bring hex removal just to "support a para", you bring it because hexes in general are a pain in the ass.
Quote:
BIP give massive regen and is spammable. EF gives +1 each time shout/chant ends and Aria of Zeal is similarly too conditional and slow.
BIP is also an ELITE.
Quote:
I notice all the people who disagree with me are primarily PvP players with no consideration for PvE.
I didn't know my playing habits were publically-available! Where did you glean this information from?
Quote:
They implicitly agree that Paragons were nerfed, but somehow subjectively claim that it does not make a difference in PvE - truly mind boggling.
Who said this where, what? Of course nerfing a virtually unlimited supply of energy had an effect, no one said it didn't. The only thing I'm doing is refuting several of your more-ridiculous statements and attempting to deflate your ego.
jesh
Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2005
San Diego, CA
Penguin Village
Mo/
05 Dec 2006 at 09:55 - 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubard
come on... they mainly nerfed horribley broken skills. Paragons should remain a team build choice, like including a degen ranger... o
A... what?! What the hell would anyone want that for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk
Fleeting Stability - Pretty useless (not for running)
Signet of Pious Light - Could be put to fairly good use (try one of the best self heals in the game)
Vow of Silence - Horray! I cannot be healed! D: (Think of it as SB with no downtime)
Wearying Strike - Useless (plague touch, avatar of melandru)
Harrier's Haste - Somewhat okay, enemies don't move that much before they die anyway though. (enemy monks kite all the time, last time I checked)
etc etc, I'm too lazy to keep going.
The thing is, I only even listed the absolute worst paragon skills in my last post, even more of our skills have a good, but extremely limited use.
As you can see from my long, out-of-place list, other classes DO have more useful skills. :/
Dervish would probably be the worst one to compare paragons to, as they were made to be good, rather than bad. I agree with you totally, that the paragon just has gimped skills when you put it next to Victorious Sweep hitting 3 targets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riotgear
I'd be insane to run an offensive build without flail. I'd be insane to run a tank build without dolyak sig.
Frenzy. A lot of elementalists use Ether Prodigy, me included.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmaniac
Since we are discussing about useless skills I'm amazed no one has mentioned signed of aggression before.
1s cast and 10s recast: so basically you gain the same amount of adrenaline as when you throw a spear but no damage. Every 10 seconds. Hey Anet plz gimp this skill before people will find out the awesome power SoA spamming.
I laughed out loud. The only use for it is to keep up your adrenaline between fights.. aka, when your triple meteor nuker is recovering from energy loss. -_-
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
Nukers are a build. The fact you cannot name a decent one to run for Paragons in PvE means you're just messing about.
This is the stupidest thing I've seen on these forums in forever. You deserve a big mushroom stamp collection, Mister Oinkers.
I won't delete my paragon, but I'll be playing other characters for a while before I touch him again.
Spura
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2005
05 Dec 2006 at 14:02 - 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Well this is quite obvious, but tantamount to complaining that Dual Shot (2s activation, 10s rechrge) isn't good for DPS. It's cearly a spiking skill - this is obvious to anyone who understands the game - so why cry about it?
Ok then show me a good non-elite DPS attack. Bow, sword, hammer, axe are full of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Correct, but they have the advantage of being able to deal damage at range. A paragon being able to deal as much damage as a melee-ranged class would be quite broken, so I fail to see your point.
Why would it be broken? First I fail to see how damage at range is an advantage when the spears are way too easily dodged. Many times I had monk strafe all my spears and only stop to rof team which not only made my damage = 0 but also made me gain no adrenaline. Of course then I started attacking other team members, but the point is with spears so easily dodged, you have the same problems as melee with kiting(that is droping dps to 0), except I've had spears dodged by a crippled target.
You have preconception that ranged needs to deal less damage(and SF elementalists are ranged and they deal as much damage as warriors so that proves you wrong there), because of the rangers. Well the rangers have a way to make arrows not miss and they pack a lot of conditions and interrupt, paragon doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
they're there to aid the other classes in doing their jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering
They were created to buff.
And what buffs are that, pray tell? ToF, Incoming, everything else is some kind of heal or similar things that you get with other classes. 90% of buffs are inferior crap or need very specific builds to take any advantage of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
You're right apparently, which is why NOBODY takes paragons into pvp anymore. Oh wait, they actually do... sorry.
In observer mode there's a paragon in about every 15th build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Actually, I think you missed my point. The paragon restoration skills are about dumb party heals, though. They're there to alleviate some pressure from the party and the monk's energy bars.
Or just put in another E/Mo or Rit. You know what a lot of teams do now? They just use a third monk instead of paragon and still adren spike is what kills not pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
In pvp any extra damage you get can is useful. Two paragons throwing spear at people under Aggressive actually does an OK amount of damage. I've actually killed low targets by simply spearing them before, quite a few times actually.
Bleh I still think at 9 spear mastery you barely do more than wand. Orb is better spike than that spear of lightning at 9 spear mastery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
And this ia a valid point because? I find it funny that pvers always feel the need to throw out the "oh it's the new iway" comment whenever a build containts any sort of heavy pressure.
Nice job flagging me as pveer.
The thing is that anyone who would care about your build(i.e. if it became popular) could have easily countered with shields up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
This seriously made me laugh. The obvious draw back is that it's a hex, which can be removed quite easily.
If you're talking about Vocal in a pve setting, then covers won't be an issue. It's not really Anets fault if your PUG monk doesn't have hex removal or you didn't put hex removal on your hero.
You laughed because you don't know crap. Hex is a drawback? So is Pacifism for instance. So why isn't pacifism a hex with duration=rechrage, ward aoe, no drawbacks? Because you can't have that on total shutdown.
You don't even make the effort to think. Currently there is no way to make Vocal Minority stick on paragon in gvg. So it is useless in gvg. But at the same time it totally shuts down paragon in things like pve and ra.
Stop talking crap like my fault cos pug monk or hero doesn't have hex removal. First of all necromancer mobs always have at least 3 hexes also monks don't prioritize removal, this hex hits whole party. And when you are in situation with 2 necro mobs it is impossible to shake the hex.
So what good is current Vocal minorty? Does nothing in HA, GvG but overpowered in Ra and pve. Why do you support this?
It needs to be changed so it is weaker in enviroments with no hex removal and stronger in enviroments with strong hex removal.
5 recharge, same duration, smaller aoe, effect changed to :all shouts and chants used recharge 5 sec longer.
This is plenty strong. Adding 5 sec rechrage to adren shouts hurts like hell. Also 25 sec recharge instead of 20 sec on most energy shouts is hurting too.
martialis
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2006
RA, reporting you
05 Dec 2006 at 15:36 - 96
Quote:
This is the stupidest thing I've seen on these forums in forever.
quack
random.name
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Oct 2006
South Africa
N/
05 Dec 2006 at 15:53 - 97
Lets be honest here. If you were starting a group, would you rather have 1 healer and 1 prot monk? or a healer monk and a paragon/rit?
99% of people out there would choose the two monks. At the end of the day that is what is killing the class.
All the expansion chars cant compete with the core classes.
Khaunshar
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Nov 2006
Legacy of Corvus
Rt/Me
05 Dec 2006 at 16:31 - 98
But thats because Monks are too freaking powerful by comparison. IMO, the best party setup for a tough area is 2 monks (heal+prot), 1 protection class (Ritualist or Paragon). You can replace the healing monk with a healing Rit, but right now, nothing can even come close to the defensive power of a Protection monk.
IMO thats more an issue with the entire game balance than an individual class: Monks are the most powerful, important, and defining class in GW, simply because one monk can pretty much undo the damage of 4+ people on his own, and with ZB now, even with barely a scratch to his energy.
crucifix
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Oct 2006
Ohio
R/Mo
05 Dec 2006 at 17:17 - 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaunshar
But thats because Monks are too freaking powerful by comparison. IMO, the best party setup for a tough area is 2 monks (heal+prot), 1 protection class (Ritualist or Paragon). You can replace the healing monk with a healing Rit, but right now, nothing can even come close to the defensive power of a Protection monk.
IMO thats more an issue with the entire game balance than an individual class: Monks are the most powerful, important, and defining class in GW, simply because one monk can pretty much undo the damage of 4+ people on his own, and with ZB now, even with barely a scratch to his energy.
well, not completely true, but close. It's a bit more conditional than that. Monks are looked at as overpowered because of one reason: the creators of this game had to make them that powerful. Unless anet had decided to give every character class a good self heal without having energy problems (or negative reprocussions of using that skill see: healing signet) then monks wouldn't need to be anywhere near as powerful as they are. But, because we have clear cut character applications and limitations, we ned a class that can hold up a party. If monks were nerfed in general, we would just have a big nuke fight for gvg's, there would be no tactical innovations.
Hella Good
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Oct 2005
None, free and clear
05 Dec 2006 at 17:25 - 100
The recent changes were necessary. The amount of armor buffs and nrg pumping a Paragon could give the team was too substantial. Remains to be seen if the nerfs were a bit too harsh. ANet do tend to overnerf things.
JR
Re:tired
Join Date: Nov 2005
W/
05 Dec 2006 at 17:30 - 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hella Good
The recent changes were necessary. The amount of armor buffs and nrg pumping a Paragon could give the team was too substantial.
Quoted for absolute truth.
People simply do not understand the role and effect of a Paragon, because it's still relatively new and largely operates in a way not seen in any other class. On a similar note the people who are new to playing the Paragon are probably still not sure of exactly how to use it, or what skills are optimal.
They were nuts before, they still work now.
Mr_Cynical
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Aug 2006
Scotland
Region of Chosen Kings [R.O.C.K]
E/Mo
05 Dec 2006 at 17:31 - 102
My real complaint is that all the exploit-based Paragon builds resulted in a very good Warrior skill being nerfed.
Riotgear
has 3 pips of HP regen.
Join Date: Aug 2006
The Objective Is More [Cash]
W/
05 Dec 2006 at 20:17 - 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesh
Frenzy. A lot of elementalists use Ether Prodigy, me included.
Running Frenzy in PvE is generally a bad idea.
Quote:
But at the same time it totally shuts down paragon in things like pve and ra.
RA, pack Stunning Strike and rip the necro a new one instead. K?
In PvE, you think I like it when my war gets swamped by Iboga who keep soothing images on me permanently? If you know you're going to be encountering annoying hexes, you bring some hex removal to get rid of them. Either get your monks to do it, or do it yourself. Hell, since paragon elites apparently suck, you can use this:
oinkers
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
05 Dec 2006 at 22:34 - 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riotgear
That's it! You didn't say anything else about what you were using it on, and "return" implied you were using it on yourself. You do not make such a statement have merit by changing the context later.
I was using return in the context of energy cost vs gain. You took it to literally mean on myself, I didn't specify which party would gain as I was hoping you'd be competent enough to at least read the skill description. Apparently not.
Quote:
Go make a build that rapes the place that includes a paragon, and everyone will be copying it.
I was asking for this 2 pages ago, still haven't seen a decent build I can run. At least with the other core classes, each class has two or more well known builds that are effective in PvE, not merely indifferent.
Quote:
No, they don't bring hex removal just to "support a para", you bring it because hexes in general are a pain in the ass.
See earlier quote about necro mobs - when hexes hit partywide, monks will revert to heal pumping instead of hunting and removing every last hex on a party member. If you want to sit out a total shutdown when that happens, be my guest. Don't contradict me when I say it's not fun playing a Paragon then.
Quote:
Who said this where, what? Of course nerfing a virtually unlimited supply of energy had an effect, no one said it didn't. The only thing I'm doing is refuting several of your more-ridiculous statements and attempting to deflate your ego.
Oh, shut up you annoying tiddler. If anyone has an ego, it's you. You have not countered any of my many arguments and instead focused on the word "returned" like some rabid donkey. I dare you to come up with a paragon build that is on par with other PvE builds. Until then, just shut up. Paragons are secondary support only and will eventually dissappear like Rits.
Go to DoA. See how many groups use a Para. See how Incoming makes such a little difference in dmg reduction there - it basically proves how useless a skill it is in PvE. If you can't use Incoming to keep your party alive in DoA, there are NO other PvE situations where dmg spikes will apply. All the other Paragon elites are similarly sucky. Cruel Spear wtf?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hella Good
The recent changes were necessary. The amount of armor buffs and nrg pumping a Paragon could give the team was too substantial. Remains to be seen if the nerfs were a bit too harsh. ANet do tend to overnerf things.
I agree. However a refinement is in order - the recent changes were necessary in _PvP_. Pity it destroyed any remaining satisfaction of playing Paragons in PvE. As it stands, Paragons have a support role (this is debatable, see rest of thread, but I'm willing to accept it) in PvP, but are merely indifferent in PvE. In PvE, you could swap out a Para for any other class and I doubt anyone would notice a difference.
B Ephekt
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2006
Team Crystalline [TC]
Mo/
05 Dec 2006 at 23:26 - 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spura
Ok then show me a good non-elite DPS attack. Bow, sword, hammer, axe are full of them.
Spear of Lightning, which I’ve only mentioned maybe 5 times so far, for one.
Quote:
Why would it be broken? First I fail to see how damage at range is an advantage when the spears are way too easily dodged. Many times I had monk strafe all my spears and only stop to rof team which not only made my damage = 0 but also made me gain no adrenaline. Of course then I started attacking other team members, but the point is with spears so easily dodged, you have the same problems as melee with kiting(that is droping dps to 0), except I've had spears dodged by a crippled target.
If you switch targets you should be constantly hitting things. As a warrior you wouldn't be following a kiting target very far, and you wouldn't continue to hit a protted target, so maybe you could apply the same logic to a Paragon?
Quote:
You have preconception that ranged needs to deal less damage(and SF elementalists are ranged and they deal as much damage as warriors so that proves you wrong there), because of the rangers. Well the rangers have a way to make arrows not miss and they pack a lot of conditions and interrupt, paragon doesn't.
Eles also have significantly less armor, so your point is moot and out of context. Having paragon be a DPS power house would be broken because of their high armor level; there has to be some downside to being able to sit back and deal large amounts of damage.
Quote:
In observer mode there's a paragon in about every 15th build.
I'm speaking from actual experience in GvG and tombs, not from simply watching obs mode. The majority of teams in the sub 100 range do bring paragons.
Quote:
and still adren spike is what kills not pressure.
This alone proves you have no idea about the current GvG meta. Pressure is huge right now, people only adren spike when they're not killing with pressure or need to take down a key target (runner, monk etc).
Quote:
Orb is better spike than that spear of lightning at 9 spear mastery.
I agree, but I also never suggested spiking with Spear of Lightning at 9 spear. One of these 3s activation time skills we spoke of earlier would be far better. Mighty Throw, for example, is only 2 adrenaline and does +28 at 9 spear. You could also use Wearying Spear and have a monk remove the weakness.
Now, I know neither of these skills comes close a 100 damage orb, (either would generally do ~50 damage to a 60 armor target) but it’s enough to aid in a spike if you have a paragon in the build already.
The thing that you’re ignoring is that there are reasons to take paragons in high level pvp. I understand that you may be unable able to see them, but that’s beside the point.
Quote:
The thing is that anyone who would care about your build(i.e. if it became popular) could have easily countered with shields up.
Again, how is this a valid point? How many teams bring enough copies of that skill, or at least 1 specced highly enough, to effectively counter the build? None. It was a build created to take advantage of the meta. I only brought it up to prove a point – paragons are not bad at doing damage, most people are just caught up on the whole “omg I can’t make pvp ridiculously easy for my team and frustrating for everyone else” aspect of the “nerf.”
Quote:
You laughed because you don't know crap. Hex is a drawback? So is Pacifism for instance. So why isn't pacifism a hex with duration=rechrage, ward aoe, no drawbacks? Because you can't have that on total shutdown.
Being a hex is a drawback because in organized pvp any team with some common sense will bring a counter to it. You'd have to be a complete idiot to bring a defensive paragon and forget hex removal, so your point is irrelevant.
Also, Pacifism is complete garbage, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up a skill that absolutely no one uses in high level pvp.
Quote:
You don't even make the effort to think.
This makes the following quotes even funnier.
Quote:
Currently there is no way to make Vocal Minority stick on paragon in gvg. So it is useless in gvg. But at the same time it totally shuts down paragon in things like pve and ra.
So basically it's a useless skill anywhere that it would actually matter, right? Glad we agree. Furthermore, Guild Wars isn't balanced around 4v4, much less random 4v4, so fish for points more please.
Quote:
Stop talking crap like my fault cos pug monk or hero doesn't have hex removal. First of all necromancer mobs always have at least 3 hexes also monks don't prioritize removal, this hex hits whole party. And when you are in situation with 2 necro mobs it is impossible to shake the hex.
Actually, it is your fault if you choose to play a paragon, know you may face mobs with Vocal and still choose to neglect hex removal on your heros. And you can micromanage your heros, so perhaps it's you who aren't thinking here.
Quote:
So what good is current Vocal minorty? Does nothing in HA, GvG but overpowered in Ra and pve. Why do you support this?
Funny that I played through the entirety of the pve game as a paragon and never once had an issue with Vocal. Maybe because it's not a problem? Also, claiming things are "overpowered" because they work well in RA is just stupid.
In pve if you play a paragon make sure a monk (hero or not) has a way to remove Vocal and a few covers if necessary. Problem solved. In RA try to grasp the concept that it's a random arena, and cope with the fact that you will sometimes lose matches for stupid reasons.
oinkers
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
05 Dec 2006 at 23:44 - 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
Spear of Lightning, which I’ve only mentioned maybe 5 times so far, for one.
OMG double post you've heard of the Edit button right? *slap* By the way, Spear of Lightning is so weak I haven't bothered equipping it since I got it.
Quote:
Funny that I played through the entirety of the pve game as a paragon and never once had an issue with Vocal. Maybe because it's not a problem?
Maybe it's because you haven't been near those mesmer Ibogas near Modti? Or have you even tried DoA? Vocal Minority in ALL 4 AREAS in the 1st patrol you meet. I repeat: try asking a monk to waste a skill slot on hex removers - you'll get booted out pronto and a MoF ranger replaces you instead.
I really do believe you're not a PvE player at all. Neither is Riotgear it seems. Which is not necessarily a problem, unless your attitude is such that whatever is fine for PvP must surely also be for PvE, or that you don't give a damn. I'm not sure which of the two I find more off putting.
Quote:
If you switch targets you should be constantly hitting things.
Eeeek stay far, far, far away from my groups! You ought to know full well round robin-ing between targets achieves little as they regen quickly when you're not hitting them. Switching targets using sucky spear damage because you're being evaded too much? A stupid response to a situation that should never have arose.
You're making all the exceptions for PvP groups e.g. saying they'd be crazy not to being hex removers if a Paragon is coming along. You're quite happy ascribing to them best-case behaviour. Do you seriously expect this to be the case everywhere? In particular, do you seriously think this is the way PvE teams pan out? Like they're made up by the same people who form the top 100 PvP groups you like to base all your arguments on? I find your arguments not using comparables, and therefore disingenuous.
SparhawkJC
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Mar 2006
The Amazon Basin
R/Me
05 Dec 2006 at 23:57 - 107
less character attacks and more focus on the game, to be honest.
oinkers
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
06 Dec 2006 at 00:07 - 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by SparhawkJC
less character attacks and more focus on the game, to be honest.
I'd go with that. Only reason why I registered on this forum was to post on this thread about my dissatisfaction with Paragons, having lurked for a better part of a year on this site. All I get is PvP'ers saying that it was a balanced changed and leaving PvEr's to suffer.
It's saying something important that there are very few new builds being proposed and discussed on Paragons, and more arguing about their viability. It's not a healthy state of affairs. I remember the time around the NF preview when people were genuinely excited about Paragons being excellent all-rounders with WY/GFTE and spamming chants/shouts being synergistic with W secondaries. Where's that now? What viable builds has that made that hasn't been nerfed? None.
The only new build posted today (see other thread) again makes the cardinal mistake (which we've all felt tempted too) of putting 9 in spear just to get some damage out of it, and crippling command as a result.
Meh. ANet fanboys can say all they like about how Paragons are still somehow being used in PvP. We know it's niche. We know they won't last in the game beyond this chapter.
RandomEngy
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jun 2005
The Kansas City Hotsteppers [KCHS]
P/
06 Dec 2006 at 00:36 - 109
It seems most of your beef is with finding groups in DoA, and that the area has an uncharacteristically high amount of anti-paragon skills. Counters to one specific class are always going to be stronger than general counters. That Paragons don't do well in an area with abundant paragon shutdown says absolutely nothing. Rather than complain at the class, it seems to me like you should take up your beef with whoever designed your area or the monks who refuse to remove VM.
Want an effective PvE paragon build? Here. Of course simultaneously setting lots of things on fire, reducing damage to your team, augmenting your team's damage and doing decent damage yourself sounds horrible.
Paragons do less damage than a warrior. And less healing/protection than a monk. But they do them both at the same time, which is what makes them an effective class. If you want them to simultaneously do the same damage as a warrior while provide more protection than a monk, you've got pretty unrealistic expectations of the class.
Khaunshar
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Nov 2006
Legacy of Corvus
Rt/Me
06 Dec 2006 at 00:45 - 110
Actually, warrior damage is pretty much a myth against mobs lvl 22+.
I am not even sure where it comes from, but since the new AI has you running around a lot chasing the right target, or abandon it and whack the lvl 28 Blade of Corruption, warrior damage is pretty much nonexistant except for the occasional adrenaline-fueled spike.
Even in GvG, the netto damage a paragon does due to his range is pretty much the same as a warrior. People just play too much theorycraft.... yes, on paper a warrior outdamages a paragon, but figure in lag, running away, warping back at tight corners etc., warriors dont have much melee time.
For pressure, a paragons spear autoattack beats a warriors autoattack any time.
EDIT: Actually a friend told me where that warrior DPS myth stems from in his opinion: Mobs didnt use all that many defensive skills until Nightfall, meaning little issues with block, dodge, or "Watch Yourself" with tactics like 20
B Ephekt
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2006
Team Crystalline [TC]
Mo/
06 Dec 2006 at 03:09 - 111
Quote:
Maybe it's because you haven't been near those mesmer Ibogas near Modti? Or have you even tried DoA? Vocal Minority in ALL 4 AREAS in the 1st patrol you meet. I repeat: try asking a monk to waste a skill slot on hex removers - you'll get booted out pronto and a MoF ranger replaces you instead.
I really do believe you're not a PvE player at all. Neither is Riotgear it seems. Which is not necessarily a problem, unless your attitude is such that whatever is fine for PvP must surely also be for PvE, or that you don't give a damn. I'm not sure which of the two I find more off putting.
My point, which you seemed to either take out of context or completely miss, is that when you run a class with a clear counter (vocal for paragons, blind for physical damage classes), you'd be an idiot to neglect an anti to that counter. Crying about Vocal being "overpowered" because you don't feel like bringing hex removal is just stupid.
Quote:
Eeeek stay far, far, far away from my groups! You ought to know full well round robin-ing between targets achieves little as they regen quickly when you're not hitting them. Switching targets using sucky spear damage because you're being evaded too much? A stupid response to a situation that should never have arose.
Had you actually bothered to read the comment you were replying to, you'd have realized it was in the context of pvp. Switching targets is what physical damge classes do when targets kite or get protted; it's called pressure. Of course this doesn't translate to pvp, but then again it was never meant to. Reading comprehension please.
The rest of your reply is just garbage. If you're going into an area where migraine, dazed, backfire, vocal (to name a few examples) or other harmful conditions or hexes are present you would be stupid to neglect counters. This is simply common sense stuff; it has nothing to do with pve vs. pvp, stop trying to throw that bullshit around like it's an actual point.
oinkers
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
06 Dec 2006 at 07:31 - 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Ephekt
My point, which you seemed to either take out of context or completely miss, is that when you run a class with a clear counter
You never seem to read my posts. Paragons dont have good spammable native hex removal skills - it was something i mentioned originally. There is no clear counter to this - even if you run P/Me, the moment you remove it, the same hex gets slapped on you again in seconds.
Don't bother replying to my posts. It's clear your a PvPer who has no experience of the standard kind of mobs you find in PvE.
Quote:
The rest of your reply is just garbage.
All your replies from the very beginning are worse than garbage, considering you never address the issues I raise.
What about a decent build? (3rd time asking).
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomEngy
It seems most of your beef is with finding groups in DoA, and that the area has an uncharacteristically high amount of anti-paragon skills.
NO.
I use DoA to highlight one area where Paragons supposed damage reduction/party buffing would be crucial - as opposed to spot healing monks excel at. All the other missions in NF are too easy - you can muddle through with a lousy build all the time.
Do you often find yourself playing with no monks? Then your "point" (which seems more like sidesteeping the obvious, honestly) is pretty silly.
Is it too far fetched to expect monks to be able to remove hexes and conditons? Granted, I know there is only so much you can expect form a pve pug monk, but hex removal isn't really an abstract thing. Especially when you consider the ability to choose your own hero monk skillbars.
Look, when I played through Nightfall on my paragon, I set both of my hero monks as standard mo/me Blessed Light monks, and never had a single problem with hexes. Is it really that hard to put a little though into something, instead of crying that paragons can't reomve hexes as well as a mesmer or monk?
As for your "point," paragons don't need "spammable native hex removal skills" when you consider than every single pve party will have 2 monks in it.
Quote:
Don't bother replying to my posts. [...] What about a decent build? (3rd time asking).
Don't be so indecisive!
Riotgear
has 3 pips of HP regen.
Join Date: Aug 2006
The Objective Is More [Cash]
W/
06 Dec 2006 at 10:51 - 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinkers
I was hoping you'd be competent enough to at least read the skill description. Apparently not.
I know what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing skill does. I was assuming you were attempting to use it as an e-management skill based on your wording. K?
Quote:
when hexes hit partywide, monks will revert to heal pumping instead of hunting and removing every last hex on a party member.
Then control-click the hex icon until they do something about it. Yeesh. Or solve the problem yourself, as I suggested. God forbid you have to modify your skill bar to adjust to an area's specific challenges. Or better yet, you can get your tank to grow a brain and charge in first, since they'll target VM on you whether you can shout/chant or not.
Quote:
Oh, shut up you annoying tiddler.
Sorry, did I strike a nerve?
Quote:
You have not countered any of my many arguments and instead focused on the word "returned" like some rabid donkey.
I haven't what? Read them again please. The "returned" argument started because I made an assumption, and just because it didn't turn out to be correct doesn't mean it wasn't valid.
Quote:
Go to DoA. See how many groups use a Para. See how Incoming makes such a little difference in dmg reduction there - it basically proves how useless a skill it is in PvE.
Yes, it is useless in PvE. Who cares. Final Thrust is useless in PvE too, should I be crying for a buff to it? Use Song of Restoration or something instead.
Quote:
OMG double post you've heard of the Edit button right? *slap*
He's got a ways to go before he matches a 6-post streak followed immediately by a triple-post. Try again.
Quote:
Maybe it's because you haven't been near those mesmer Ibogas near Modti?
Actually I have, my warrior had tons of fun with those. Funny how you're complaining about VM when soothing on a warrior is really just as bad. The solution was basically the same though: Make a b-light with inspired hex, give myself expel hexes. Steamrolled. Yes, it would get re-applied. And it gets removed just as easily.
Quote:
I really do believe you're not a PvE player at all. Neither is Riotgear it seems.
Either that or neither of us have been running into those problems. Like kiting spears, just pick a spell caster, which will stand nice and still while you plug them.
Quote:
If you expect a monk to bring it, you're mad. You can equip a hero monk with hex removals, but it gets slapped back on you so fast you'd be draining monks energy like mad expelling hexes constantly.
If you're in an area with that many hexes, have them pack Divert! You're not the only one that gets pissed off by hex stacks that prevent you from doing anything. Or in the case of VM, have someone go in first. It's a 20 second recharge, and they'll target it on ANYONE, even if they don't have any chants/shouts.
Quote:
2. Lame wanding Fire eles outta energy - Conjure Flame is what they use when they can't nuke due to being low on energy, it raises their wand damage. And it's better than spear at 9.
Where the hell are you getting your eles from? The only excuse for being low on energy are the attunements getting stripped, in which case conjure isn't gonna last long either. The other thing that's being neglected is that your damage output is done largely through your teammates. Extra adrenaline, extra energy, free criticals, etc.
It all adds up, but it's subtle.
LightningHell
(????????????)???
Join Date: Aug 2005
Hong Kong
Guildless
Mo/
06 Dec 2006 at 13:05 - 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riotgear
He's got a ways to go before he matches a 6-post streak followed immediately by a triple-post. Try again.
And then two MORE doubleposts. Geez, I'm having a very nice day today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oinker
1. Rangers with Barrage - wouldn't be nice if Paragons had "and hits 6 other nearby targets" type AoE skills on spears
2. Lame wanding Fire eles outta energy - Conjure Flame is what they use when they can't nuke due to being low on energy, it raises their wand damage. And it's better than spear at 9.
3. E/Mo HP bunnies - they heal unconditionally like mad on a large energy pool, better then all the *** of Restoration skills you can slap on a motivation Paragon which are limited by next attack skill, next time member uses shout etc etc.
...
IMO the only reason to use your spear to attack is to get adrenaline for GtfE and other miscellaneous shouts. That's just me, I don't try to be a level 28 mob with a decent skillbar.
Your Fire ele example is just...wow...
Spura
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2005
06 Dec 2006 at 13:15 - 116
Way to behave like a jackass B Ephekt.
I suggest a change that would make a skill useful in all game modes and you are being an asshole about it. I bring up pacifism because it is like Vocal Minority a complete shutdown of an aspect of a character. As you can see, all other "you can;t do X" skills are way weaker and usually their recharge is bigger than their duration. I suggest Vocal Minority is made into something that doesn't totally shutdown shouts, just hinder them like by increasing recharge by 5 sec, but with increased spamability. Which would be great for gvg (which I know is main point for balancing anything), as it is currently useless in gvg, but at the same time it would be balanced in other game modes. Because if you just decrease recharge it starts to be a large problem in other game mode which, while usually not being included when balancing, shouldn't be broken when there is a better solution for everyone at hand.
Also your guild is something like rank 800+, so keep your snide comments how I don't know crap about gvg meta to yourself kthx.
button.
