mesmer = no one wants them in group..?
Riotgear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Y.T.
both ss and minions break aggro in end-game and elite mis, and good nec dosnt always mm or ss, there r alot of nice builds...
Does a mesmer really offer a good alternative to that though? If so, what makes the mesmer better for it than N/Me with the same skills?
Scourgey
Mesmer is great in DOA.
Go Spiritual Pain + Energy Surge + Arcane Echo + gaze.
However I do actually have rank 6 light bringer which makes me do considerably more damage than normal.
Go Spiritual Pain + Energy Surge + Arcane Echo + gaze.
However I do actually have rank 6 light bringer which makes me do considerably more damage than normal.
michaelp68
How about the massive aoe damage from:
Glyph of Renewal, Spiritual Pain (x2), Shame, Lightbringer Gaze and Shatter Hex?
Add a rez and 2 others of your choice (or skip the rez and bring 3 others of your choice), i.e., Backfire, Empathy, Power Drain, Power Spike, Leech Signet or anything else you like.
Or use a shutdown build which will let the group own the bosses but will have less aoe damage.
That first list of skills does an incredible amount of damage to multiple foes with 16 in Domination.
Glyph of Renewal, Spiritual Pain (x2), Shame, Lightbringer Gaze and Shatter Hex?
Add a rez and 2 others of your choice (or skip the rez and bring 3 others of your choice), i.e., Backfire, Empathy, Power Drain, Power Spike, Leech Signet or anything else you like.
Or use a shutdown build which will let the group own the bosses but will have less aoe damage.
That first list of skills does an incredible amount of damage to multiple foes with 16 in Domination.
Paperfly
Quote:
um, I rarely get into pve and even I could immediately pick up the fact that dervishes pump out crazy amounts of damage in pve. Why would they be excluded?
Because they're popular. There's plenty of bad Dervishes around at lower levels, so Assassin Syndrome kicks in and the class is permanently underrated....Back on track, how're people going energy-wise? I'm gimping myself slightly at the moment by attempting both shutdown and damage with my domination mesmer -
{e}Mantra of Recovery
Lightbringer's Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Shame
Guilt
Mistrust
Generous was Tsungrai
Flesh of my Flesh
- but I'm finding that even with energy back from the guilt-and-shame combo I run out of juice to power the Mantra all too often. After the latest Inspiration nerf the easy point-and-shoot methods for energy gain (read: Drain Enchantmet) aren't going to feed a scrub like me, and I'm not a good enough interrupter to want to depend on Power Drain/Leech Signet.
...Or should I just drop the Mantra entirely, toss Surge in and fire off everything on recharge? Is that enough of a contribution?
(OMG, did I just admit to fallibility on the Internet? What if someone calls me a n00b?
)
Eclair
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paperfly
Because they're popular. There's plenty of bad Dervishes around at lower levels, so Assassin Syndrome kicks in and the class is permanently underrated.
...Back on track, how're people going energy-wise? I'm gimping myself slightly at the moment by attempting both shutdown and damage with my domination mesmer -
{e}Mantra of Recovery
Lightbringer's Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Shame
Guilt
Mistrust
Generous was Tsungrai
Flesh of my Flesh
- but I'm finding that even with energy back from the guilt-and-shame combo I run out of juice to power the Mantra all too often. After the latest Inspiration nerf the easy point-and-shoot methods for energy gain (read: Drain Enchantmet) aren't going to feed a scrub like me, and I'm not a good enough interrupter to want to depend on Power Drain/Leech Signet.
...Or should I just drop the Mantra entirely, toss Surge in and fire off everything on recharge? Is that enough of a contribution?
(OMG, did I just admit to fallibility on the Internet? What if someone calls me a n00b? )
Hmm, how essential are your ritualist secondary skills? Because if you go monk secondary and bring essence bond, you essentially have 'infinite' energy if you cast it on the tank.
...Back on track, how're people going energy-wise? I'm gimping myself slightly at the moment by attempting both shutdown and damage with my domination mesmer -
{e}Mantra of Recovery
Lightbringer's Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Shame
Guilt
Mistrust
Generous was Tsungrai
Flesh of my Flesh
- but I'm finding that even with energy back from the guilt-and-shame combo I run out of juice to power the Mantra all too often. After the latest Inspiration nerf the easy point-and-shoot methods for energy gain (read: Drain Enchantmet) aren't going to feed a scrub like me, and I'm not a good enough interrupter to want to depend on Power Drain/Leech Signet.
...Or should I just drop the Mantra entirely, toss Surge in and fire off everything on recharge? Is that enough of a contribution?
(OMG, did I just admit to fallibility on the Internet? What if someone calls me a n00b?
)
Hmm, how essential are your ritualist secondary skills? Because if you go monk secondary and bring essence bond, you essentially have 'infinite' energy if you cast it on the tank.
LONGA
Maybe time to unload those unused green items from my mesmer and start playing again. I missed the way my mesmer taking down most W enemy fom 4 months ago.
NinjaKai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclair
Hmm, how essential are your ritualist secondary skills? Because if you go monk secondary and bring essence bond, you essentially have 'infinite' energy if you cast it on the tank.
Problem with PUGs is most tanks say their tanks and are actually idiots that run to the nearest spellcaster letting other mods past.
Sophitia Leafblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riotgear
Does a mesmer really offer a good alternative to that though? If so, what makes the mesmer better for it than N/Me with the same skills?
lol taht like Saying lets Get a R/Mo to monk for a party, or a Rit/Ele to Nuke for the party, sure it can be done and can occasionally be effective but it will never be as effective as using the primary attributes, Fast casting ftw! not to mention the fact u can use the Runes and u can use armour pieces taht boost ur stats even higher, 15 in domination ftw! i love to see a monk casting with backfire that does 140 damage then just when he trys to remove hex that, hes suddenly slammed for a nice 102 damage 
Lady Callingwell
The problem is jsut that the mesmer is not capable of "lemme-bash-my-buttons-as-a-morron-and-all-r-dead" style of play which is just so important when doing PvE because you will run into some peeps not able to do much more.
Generally the two offensive (primary) attribute lines available are domination and illusion; I wont even go into illusion against such high level enemies. Domination has some pure dps skills (mainly spiritual pain as long as there are some spirits around; e-surge has a fairly long recharge for pve spmabillity standards) however some of the skills can be such solid gold in stall situations; like diversion for example.
Everyone allways calls me an idiot for using diversion in pve but how many healing specced bosses allready dropped to it, or ele bosses limited to 1 or 2 kills instead of partywhipes. However diverting a healer's boon powered healing whisper provides so insanely much "virtual dps" by denying their dps.
But how often does it happen, in pve people stick to the "kill em quick with all you can throw at em and than move to the next mob"-mentallity, the main thing here is that game design also allows it, I'd just love to see a backline similiar to a pvp configuration. That would make stupid peak dps for 10 seconds not do it but would make fights last longer -long enough for the mesmer (and others) to actually start controlling things-.
Generally the two offensive (primary) attribute lines available are domination and illusion; I wont even go into illusion against such high level enemies. Domination has some pure dps skills (mainly spiritual pain as long as there are some spirits around; e-surge has a fairly long recharge for pve spmabillity standards) however some of the skills can be such solid gold in stall situations; like diversion for example.
Everyone allways calls me an idiot for using diversion in pve but how many healing specced bosses allready dropped to it, or ele bosses limited to 1 or 2 kills instead of partywhipes. However diverting a healer's boon powered healing whisper provides so insanely much "virtual dps" by denying their dps.
But how often does it happen, in pve people stick to the "kill em quick with all you can throw at em and than move to the next mob"-mentallity, the main thing here is that game design also allows it, I'd just love to see a backline similiar to a pvp configuration. That would make stupid peak dps for 10 seconds not do it but would make fights last longer -long enough for the mesmer (and others) to actually start controlling things-.
Lumenil
Well, I'havent yet been able to get in a serious PUG with my mesmer in english district 1 (europe), despite I kept advertising I have spiritual pain, mistrust, surge, mantra and whatever mesmer skill anybody could desire from me. I tried to selfinvite as well, but I got no luck. At the moment I am R3 lightbringer, tomorrow I'll farm some more points, but if nobody picks me even at R4 (I mean serious organized PUGs, not desperate ones) I'm going to give up.
maraxusofk
backfire + mantra of recall + diversion = gg enemy dumb computer casters
Zinger314
Quote:
Originally Posted by maraxusofk
backfire + mantra of recall + diversion = gg enemy dumb computer caster
Fixed.
Apok Omen
Actually, to the Mesmers who say that no one wants you in the group, I have this to ask: Why would you want to lower your experience and intellegence on worthless PuG's?
GoA is the BEACON for Mesmer damage. Everyone is saying ''Bring SP + ES'' when they do not tell why. In my one time in GoA, as a Paragon, I have noticed one very important thing: There are at least 2 spirits in each mob with a Ranger Margo. And which skill recharges instantly when it targets spirits? That's right, SPIRITUAL PAIN.
With this skill and a battery behind you combined with your natural FastCasting, you are more powerful than 8 SF Eles put together. Unleash many SP's on each spirit, then finish them off with ES, followed by a possible Echoed Lightbringer's Gaze. You will find the results catastrophic.
GoA is the BEACON for Mesmer damage. Everyone is saying ''Bring SP + ES'' when they do not tell why. In my one time in GoA, as a Paragon, I have noticed one very important thing: There are at least 2 spirits in each mob with a Ranger Margo. And which skill recharges instantly when it targets spirits? That's right, SPIRITUAL PAIN.
With this skill and a battery behind you combined with your natural FastCasting, you are more powerful than 8 SF Eles put together. Unleash many SP's on each spirit, then finish them off with ES, followed by a possible Echoed Lightbringer's Gaze. You will find the results catastrophic.
XvArchonvX
The way A-net has designed the new area, there really isn't much point in bringing a mesmer, just as there isn't any in bringing an assasin. I've seen lots of groups try lots of different tactics, and really the best way to get through is with the wall/nuke tactic. Admittedly, there is more to this now then there was before since the AI acts different and aggro can be lost more easily, but a good group that communicates well (vent ftw) can manage this well enough to make it through quickly.
While I love mesmers, there simply isn't anything they can bring to the table in these new areas that can't be done better by another class. If it were single target style battles, then mesmers would be fine, but as it stands now, huge mobs make it simply more practical to use mesmer stuff as a secondary.
While I love mesmers, there simply isn't anything they can bring to the table in these new areas that can't be done better by another class. If it were single target style battles, then mesmers would be fine, but as it stands now, huge mobs make it simply more practical to use mesmer stuff as a secondary.
Khaunshar
Actually, that isnt entirely correct.
Fact is, Mesmers dont bring much to the wall/nuke tactic that other classes cannot do better.
However, there are different tactics that work as well, in some cases better, in some cases worse, than wall/nuke. And in several of those, a Mesmer does indeed have a spot.
Unfortunately, people play the way they have done it in Prophecies, and in any other MMO, which means wall/nuke, and ignore the finer aspects. So chances are, when you join a random group, they only know the wall/nuke approach, and even if they tried, would fail at anything else.
So, you are pretty much dependant on your guild or friends.
Still, I have seen different approaches work, and have actually finished City with a dervish tank (Melandrus Avatar centric) and almost finished it with a Shadowform tank.
Fact is, Mesmers dont bring much to the wall/nuke tactic that other classes cannot do better.
However, there are different tactics that work as well, in some cases better, in some cases worse, than wall/nuke. And in several of those, a Mesmer does indeed have a spot.
Unfortunately, people play the way they have done it in Prophecies, and in any other MMO, which means wall/nuke, and ignore the finer aspects. So chances are, when you join a random group, they only know the wall/nuke approach, and even if they tried, would fail at anything else.
So, you are pretty much dependant on your guild or friends.
Still, I have seen different approaches work, and have actually finished City with a dervish tank (Melandrus Avatar centric) and almost finished it with a Shadowform tank.
LordDeArnise
Got a caster? Backfire and Anti-spell interrupts.
Got a melee incoming? Empathy, Spirit of Failure, & Clumsiness
Need a quick charge? Power Drain & Mantra of Recall
Then there's my all-time Mesmer Favorite...Shatter Hex...take a hex out of a melee in a wad of adjacent mobs...massive AoE damage.
MESMERS RULE!
Got a melee incoming? Empathy, Spirit of Failure, & Clumsiness
Need a quick charge? Power Drain & Mantra of Recall
Then there's my all-time Mesmer Favorite...Shatter Hex...take a hex out of a melee in a wad of adjacent mobs...massive AoE damage.
MESMERS RULE!
Cebe
I would ALWAYS have a mesmer in my party. Mesmers are awesome...with the added bonus that when Spiritual Pain says it does 106 damage to target for guess what?....it DOES 106 damage!
Lady Callingwell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apok Omen
Actually, to the Mesmers who say that no one wants you in the group, I have this to ask: Why would you want to lower your experience and intellegence on worthless PuG's?
My mesmer is just my alltime favorite, and since the release of the nightfalll pvp gear selecetion the only char with whon I really pve. In prophecies and nightfall I've done each and every quest and mission + bonus, I'd like to do this in NF as well, and now I cannot do the quests down there simply because noone accpets a mesmer around. Not too much to count on the guild either as we've mainly gvging anyway when we have enough ppl.
Lucifer PVP
We have had a mesmer class in my groups which have beatin 3 of the 4 quests. They are useful for killing monks.
NinjaKai
Truth is if I group with a party as a mesmer. I do it with friends or guildies. They tend to be the non-half-whit kind.
XvArchonvX
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDeArnise
Got a caster? Backfire and Anti-spell interrupts.
Got a melee incoming? Empathy, Spirit of Failure, & Clumsiness
Need a quick charge? Power Drain & Mantra of Recall
Then there's my all-time Mesmer Favorite...Shatter Hex...take a hex out of a melee in a wad of adjacent mobs...massive AoE damage.
MESMERS RULE! It never seems to fail that someone makes a point like this to argue for mesmers in PvE, when the fact is that these skills will take down one enemy. They may even take down that enemy rather quickly, but in many areas that consist of massive mobs, taking one enemy at a time is incredibly slow. Take into account the long recharges of skills like Shatter Hex, and you aren't left with much that contributes to this type of environment. If it was just one enemy charging you at a time, then mesmers might be king, but since it's tons of monsters at once, eles are generally found to be the prof of choice.
Got a melee incoming? Empathy, Spirit of Failure, & Clumsiness
Need a quick charge? Power Drain & Mantra of Recall
Then there's my all-time Mesmer Favorite...Shatter Hex...take a hex out of a melee in a wad of adjacent mobs...massive AoE damage.
MESMERS RULE! It never seems to fail that someone makes a point like this to argue for mesmers in PvE, when the fact is that these skills will take down one enemy. They may even take down that enemy rather quickly, but in many areas that consist of massive mobs, taking one enemy at a time is incredibly slow. Take into account the long recharges of skills like Shatter Hex, and you aren't left with much that contributes to this type of environment. If it was just one enemy charging you at a time, then mesmers might be king, but since it's tons of monsters at once, eles are generally found to be the prof of choice.
Lumenil
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
It never seems to fail that someone makes a point like this to argue for mesmers in PvE, when the fact is that these skills will take down one enemy. They may even take down that enemy rather quickly, but in many areas that consist of massive mobs, taking one enemy at a time is incredibly slow. Take into account the long recharges of skills like Shatter Hex, and you aren't left with much that contributes to this type of environment. If it was just one enemy charging you at a time, then mesmers might be king, but since it's tons of monsters at once, eles are generally found to be the prof of choice.
Actually, shatter hex recharge is only 10 seconds, the same of its new elite enhanced version, Hex Eater Vortex. And you seem to ignore all the others new AoE mesmer skills, like Spiritual Pain, Shared Burden, Mistrust, Mirror of Disechantment, Panic (this one actually not new).. Anyway, you forget how useful is, even against a massive mob, being able to quickly shoutdown a monk npc.
XvArchonvX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumenil
Actually, shatter hex recharge is only 10 seconds, the same of its new elite ehanced version, Hex Eater Vortex. And you seem to ignore all the others new AoE mesmer skills, like SP, Shared Burden, Mistrust, Mirror of Disechantment, Panic (this one actually not new).. Anyway, you forget how useful is, even against a massive mob, being able to quickly shoutdown a monk npc.
Typically, I've found it much more efficient to simply prevent hexes with something like an obsid flesh tank. Even if Shatter hex were to be used, it would be more efficient to put it on a necro that wouldn't have to dedicate skills on his skill bar to energy management due to soul reaping. As far as hex removal there are many other choices that are more energy efficient in terms of removing hexes.
Also, why shutdown a monk with mesmer skills when you could just drop a MS and take down the monk along with all adjacent enemies as well? On top of this, many new areas don't even have monk enemies. One of the best examples is the Stygian area. For most of this area, you won't encounter a monk until you hit a boss. Stygian Hungers for example are essentially uber touch rangers. Both mesmer and melee shutdown is pretty useless against these enemies and even diversion would do little since they have 4 different touch skills.
What it comes down to is that a group with good nukers and a good tank will be able to take down a group of enemies faster than a mesmer can, regardless of the class encountered. Even if mesmer skills were a better choice, a N/Me would be better suited due to their incredible energy management via soul reaping.
Until there really becomes an area where fast casting is more important than soul reaping, the necro will likely remain as a wiser choice than a mesmer for any roles that may be considered by a mesmer.
Also, why shutdown a monk with mesmer skills when you could just drop a MS and take down the monk along with all adjacent enemies as well? On top of this, many new areas don't even have monk enemies. One of the best examples is the Stygian area. For most of this area, you won't encounter a monk until you hit a boss. Stygian Hungers for example are essentially uber touch rangers. Both mesmer and melee shutdown is pretty useless against these enemies and even diversion would do little since they have 4 different touch skills.
What it comes down to is that a group with good nukers and a good tank will be able to take down a group of enemies faster than a mesmer can, regardless of the class encountered. Even if mesmer skills were a better choice, a N/Me would be better suited due to their incredible energy management via soul reaping.
Until there really becomes an area where fast casting is more important than soul reaping, the necro will likely remain as a wiser choice than a mesmer for any roles that may be considered by a mesmer.
Ximm
For PvE I run a promise nuke build, Me/A. It can really tear through mobs. It would be interesting to see a group of mesmers with this build
Assasins Promise (E)(gives energy and recharges all skills when hexed mob dies)
Lightbringers Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Unnatural Signet
Empathy
Backfire
Diversion/Guilt/Shatter Hex/Wastrels Worry
Res Sig
Assasins Promise (E)(gives energy and recharges all skills when hexed mob dies)
Lightbringers Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Unnatural Signet
Empathy
Backfire
Diversion/Guilt/Shatter Hex/Wastrels Worry
Res Sig
Njaiguni Blaze
EVERY PROFFESSION IS REPLACABLE BY ANOTHER PROFFESION
I use a domination mesmer in DoA and am constantly tweaking her. (My mesmer makes me neglect all my other proffs.) Skills involve empathy, backfire, guilt, hex eater vortex, shatter ench (that's a big one there).
About why bringing a mesmer to shutdown a monk when a MS can do it, well, MS=AoE which makes mobs run (the knockdowns only help to a certain level, and I've seen far too many ppl using MS the wrong way, at the wrong time. When you bring a mesmer with frustration/arcane conundrum and PD for example, u can totally make the monk useless. (of course there is energy denial, skill denial, and awesome dmg too, this was just an example) One or two MS aren't enough to bring a monk down, and there will still be heals. When u prevent the monks from healing, it'll be more effecient imo. I also pwn the 5second cast if I were to go fast cast ele. Also, the builds I bring are mostly to take out both casting and martial foes. (and heck, if I want to focus on killing/shutting down something particular, I can do that too)
And energy? I never had any problem with that, spirit of failure and guilt are just two of the whopping energy gaining skills. Some have got a long recharge, but we got spells/stances/enchantments for that too.
Lastly, I would like to say that it is more likely that you get a more experienced player by bringing a mesmer in stead of a warrior, ranger or necromancer, cus the ppl I've seen around there still swear by Mending (seriously, not joking, saw 4 of them there) Barrage (I'm not even gonna comment on that) and being a MM (-_-). And for all the nukers out there, for Dwayna's sake, throw out (arcane) echo, bring glyph of renewal or some other faster regenner.
Please cut the slack about one proffesion being inferior to another, cus like I said in my first sentence, you can tell things about every proffesion that makes them inferior to other proffessions.
PS, I've been thinking about going Signet of Illusions Bonder, so I can cut the monks some slack
I use a domination mesmer in DoA and am constantly tweaking her. (My mesmer makes me neglect all my other proffs.) Skills involve empathy, backfire, guilt, hex eater vortex, shatter ench (that's a big one there).
About why bringing a mesmer to shutdown a monk when a MS can do it, well, MS=AoE which makes mobs run (the knockdowns only help to a certain level, and I've seen far too many ppl using MS the wrong way, at the wrong time. When you bring a mesmer with frustration/arcane conundrum and PD for example, u can totally make the monk useless. (of course there is energy denial, skill denial, and awesome dmg too, this was just an example) One or two MS aren't enough to bring a monk down, and there will still be heals. When u prevent the monks from healing, it'll be more effecient imo. I also pwn the 5second cast if I were to go fast cast ele. Also, the builds I bring are mostly to take out both casting and martial foes. (and heck, if I want to focus on killing/shutting down something particular, I can do that too)
And energy? I never had any problem with that, spirit of failure and guilt are just two of the whopping energy gaining skills. Some have got a long recharge, but we got spells/stances/enchantments for that too.
Lastly, I would like to say that it is more likely that you get a more experienced player by bringing a mesmer in stead of a warrior, ranger or necromancer, cus the ppl I've seen around there still swear by Mending (seriously, not joking, saw 4 of them there) Barrage (I'm not even gonna comment on that) and being a MM (-_-). And for all the nukers out there, for Dwayna's sake, throw out (arcane) echo, bring glyph of renewal or some other faster regenner.
Please cut the slack about one proffesion being inferior to another, cus like I said in my first sentence, you can tell things about every proffesion that makes them inferior to other proffessions.
PS, I've been thinking about going Signet of Illusions Bonder, so I can cut the monks some slack
Lumenil
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Typically, I've found it much more efficient to simply prevent hexes with something like an obsid flesh tank. Even if Shatter hex were to be used, it would be more efficient to put it on a necro that wouldn't have to dedicate skills on his skill bar to energy management due to soul reaping. As far as hex removal there are many other choices that are more energy efficient in terms of removing hexes.
I think you completely miss the point of shatter hex and hex eater vortex.. these skills simply suck at hex removing.. there are far better skills for that. These skills are for damage dealing! at 15 domination, casting shatter hex on an hexed tank, quickly deals 120 armor ignoring damage to all foes near the tank. Hex eater vortex adds a nice aoe enchant stip to that. And no, you cant bring those skills on your necro, because 15-16 domination is a little different than 9-10, and since these skills are conditional, they require fast casting or, by the time the slow necro has finished casting, the hex could naturally be expired.
LordDeArnise
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Typically, I've found it much more efficient to simply prevent hexes with something like an obsid flesh tank. Even if Shatter hex were to be used, it would be more efficient to put it on a necro that wouldn't have to dedicate skills on his skill bar to energy management due to soul reaping. As far as hex removal there are many other choices that are more energy efficient in terms of removing hexes.
Also, why shutdown a monk with mesmer skills when you could just drop a MS and take down the monk along with all adjacent enemies as well? On top of this, many new areas don't even have monk enemies. One of the best examples is the Stygian area. For most of this area, you won't encounter a monk until you hit a boss. Stygian Hungers for example are essentially uber touch rangers. Both mesmer and melee shutdown is pretty useless against these enemies and even diversion would do little since they have 4 different touch skills.
What it comes down to is that a group with good nukers and a good tank will be able to take down a group of enemies faster than a mesmer can, regardless of the class encountered. Even if mesmer skills were a better choice, a N/Me would be better suited due to their incredible energy management via soul reaping.
Until there really becomes an area where fast casting is more important than soul reaping, the necro will likely remain as a wiser choice than a mesmer for any roles that may be considered by a mesmer. Sounds like typical cookie-cutter team setups to me, save for the N/Me. Obsidian Flesh is nice for a tanking warrior, but remember that a good mesmer will Shatter Enchantments, and you see alot of PvE mesmers use it in NF. Meteor Shower, of course, also helps, but Ele's have to hope that they're not interrupted by a spiking mesmer or someone with interrupts while casting it, plus whether they cast it successfully or not, they still get some exhaustion and the targeted mobs have to stay still long enough for the first KD to take place, which ppl have to hope the melees, minions, and pets will do. Shatter Hex is quicker, and much quicker with enough pts in Fast Casting; so it's very handy when your melees are bombarded with hexes.
Now combine a good mesmer with your favorite N/Me's, nukers, tanks, monks, and a good ranger. Now there's a formidable group in my books. Besides, if everyone wanted cookie-cutter setups, noone, including myself, would play a mesmer in the first place.
Also, why shutdown a monk with mesmer skills when you could just drop a MS and take down the monk along with all adjacent enemies as well? On top of this, many new areas don't even have monk enemies. One of the best examples is the Stygian area. For most of this area, you won't encounter a monk until you hit a boss. Stygian Hungers for example are essentially uber touch rangers. Both mesmer and melee shutdown is pretty useless against these enemies and even diversion would do little since they have 4 different touch skills.
What it comes down to is that a group with good nukers and a good tank will be able to take down a group of enemies faster than a mesmer can, regardless of the class encountered. Even if mesmer skills were a better choice, a N/Me would be better suited due to their incredible energy management via soul reaping.
Until there really becomes an area where fast casting is more important than soul reaping, the necro will likely remain as a wiser choice than a mesmer for any roles that may be considered by a mesmer. Sounds like typical cookie-cutter team setups to me, save for the N/Me. Obsidian Flesh is nice for a tanking warrior, but remember that a good mesmer will Shatter Enchantments, and you see alot of PvE mesmers use it in NF. Meteor Shower, of course, also helps, but Ele's have to hope that they're not interrupted by a spiking mesmer or someone with interrupts while casting it, plus whether they cast it successfully or not, they still get some exhaustion and the targeted mobs have to stay still long enough for the first KD to take place, which ppl have to hope the melees, minions, and pets will do. Shatter Hex is quicker, and much quicker with enough pts in Fast Casting; so it's very handy when your melees are bombarded with hexes.
Now combine a good mesmer with your favorite N/Me's, nukers, tanks, monks, and a good ranger. Now there's a formidable group in my books. Besides, if everyone wanted cookie-cutter setups, noone, including myself, would play a mesmer in the first place.
Lumenil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximm
For PvE I run a promise nuke build, Me/A. It can really tear through mobs. It would be interesting to see a group of mesmers with this build
Assasins Promise (E)(gives energy and recharges all skills when hexed mob dies)
Lightbringers Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Unnatural Signet
Empathy
Backfire
Diversion/Guilt/Shatter Hex/Wastrels Worry
Res Sig This is great! Tried, works pretty fine.
Assasins Promise (E)(gives energy and recharges all skills when hexed mob dies)
Lightbringers Gaze
Spiritual Pain
Unnatural Signet
Empathy
Backfire
Diversion/Guilt/Shatter Hex/Wastrels Worry
Res Sig This is great! Tried, works pretty fine.
LicensedLuny
For the record, I'm in the "humans playing mesmer primaries well are great" club here. I'm in the "humans playing anything well are great" club, too. And I don't think the OP is asking why we don't all use mesmers to replace all the eles and necros ... they're asking why more teams don't use mesmers with the eles and necros.
I normally wouldn't reply to such a topic, not having anything more to add, but Wildi's post caught my eye, and I apologize for going slightly off topic here ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildi
I normally wouldn't reply to such a topic, not having anything more to add, but Wildi's post caught my eye, and I apologize for going slightly off topic here ...
Quote:
DoA or not, usually you fight hight lvl mobs (lvl 24 - 28) not low lvl 20 like in pvp games. Those mobs have more health, more energy and deal more damage. That means health/energy drain does not work well because mobs have a high energy pool, did you interrupt one mob three times he will continue and cast a fourth spell to damage you.
IIRC, all of my characters have always had the same base energy pool, regardless of health. The max health goes up with level, but you have the same base energy (and regen rate) at level 20 that you had at level 1. The base pool max and the regen depends on primary class. So why would a level 28 monk have a larger energy pool than a level 20 monk?
I also doubt they have any higher level weapon/item bonus energy than we do, or someone would've gotten such a drop by now. (+10 base from staves, +5 staff head mod, +12 base from offhands, with inscriptions now the possibility of another +5 on staves and wands, not counting the bonuses with neg. regen.)
Has anyone tested the lvl 24 or 28 mobs and found for sure they have more energy than a lvl 20?
I'm certainly far from pro at playing mesmer or e-denial specifically, but the few times I've tried e-denial on an AI mob, it's seemed to work alright. I'm talking about regular mobs, not bosses. Some bosses seem to have extra e-regen to go with their extra health regen, though.
Cheers,
Luny
I also doubt they have any higher level weapon/item bonus energy than we do, or someone would've gotten such a drop by now. (+10 base from staves, +5 staff head mod, +12 base from offhands, with inscriptions now the possibility of another +5 on staves and wands, not counting the bonuses with neg. regen.)
Has anyone tested the lvl 24 or 28 mobs and found for sure they have more energy than a lvl 20?
I'm certainly far from pro at playing mesmer or e-denial specifically, but the few times I've tried e-denial on an AI mob, it's seemed to work alright. I'm talking about regular mobs, not bosses. Some bosses seem to have extra e-regen to go with their extra health regen, though.
Cheers,
Luny
Anarkii
Quote:
Originally Posted by LicensedLuny
Has anyone tested the lvl 24 or 28 mobs and found for sure they have more energy than a lvl 20?
No, the base energy pool for the mobs is fixed as well, depending on their primary classes. I used to a run a solo SV/AV Spirit Bond build against level 28 Shiroken(who used Famine), and from the time taken for them to reach 0 energy, and start taking damage, I'm pretty confident they have the same energy as level 20s.
Bosses do have a higher pool, and/or higher energy regen, I'm pretty sure.
Also ele mobs will obviously have more energy than normal because of their energy storage attribute being presumably higher.
So, in other words, e-denial isnt worthless in highlevel PvE.
Bosses do have a higher pool, and/or higher energy regen, I'm pretty sure.
Also ele mobs will obviously have more energy than normal because of their energy storage attribute being presumably higher.
So, in other words, e-denial isnt worthless in highlevel PvE.
XvArchonvX
@ the Shatter Hex argument:
even a good shatter hex is still limited in damage dealing potential because it is one spike that comes every 10 seconds max. If your tank is not hexed, then you do no damage. MS and other AoE skills deal much more damage even after armor buffs. The SF eles I ran with in the Stygian area did about 42 damage per SF + burning (which is armor ignoring) about every 3 seconds.
As for the interupt and other drawbacks with MS, they are easily preventable in a controlled environment (which comes with a good tank and a group that communicates). If you are in an area with mesmer interupts, then Mantra of Resolve is a simple choice since there won't be many interupts after the initial cast due to repeated KD from multiple MS.
Even if Shatter Hex was a better choice for one to bring, why would you have a mesmer primary take it over a N/Me? The extra damage that could come from runes would be nice, but for a mesmer to be able to recast it along with other spells at their recharge, they would need to take up spots on their skill bar for energy management. A necro on the other hand only needs soul reaping.
I will admit that there will probably be some areas where a mesmer primary might work well, but unfortunately this will likely be the exception to the rule.
@ Lord DeArnise:
Yes, it is a pretty typical cookie cutter like build in the way that it works. This is because the way A-net has set up many high level areas, a wall/nuke combo is simply the most controlled environment that allows maximum damage and defense. I also think you were a bit confused since I wasn't talking about a warrior using Obsid Flesh. I was refering to a E/Me. The build allows the ele to be unaffected by spells (therefore never hexed) and with Mantra of Resolve and Mantra of Concentration, they aren't interupted. The enchantment is not stripped since most enchant stripping is from a spell. This build is not intended to be used against enemies with signet or other non-spell enchant strip skills. With a Rt/R support, Weapon of Quickening on the Obsid 'tank', Obsid Flesh can be continually cast with no down time. Also Symbiosis can be dropped to give the 'tank' huge health to be able to withstand life stealing type skills (such at Stygian Hungers that use necro touch skills). A Healer's Boon monk can cast a single Dwayna's Kiss and heal the 'tank' for 800-1,000+ health easily if life stealing is encountered.
If I may back up for a bit, I should let it be known that I am not a mesmer hater by any means. I only believe that there are many situations in PvE that mesmers are not the most efficient choice. In PvP and several specific PvE areas, however, a mesmer can be a very strong member of the party (*cough* prophecies monk bosses *cough*)
even a good shatter hex is still limited in damage dealing potential because it is one spike that comes every 10 seconds max. If your tank is not hexed, then you do no damage. MS and other AoE skills deal much more damage even after armor buffs. The SF eles I ran with in the Stygian area did about 42 damage per SF + burning (which is armor ignoring) about every 3 seconds.
As for the interupt and other drawbacks with MS, they are easily preventable in a controlled environment (which comes with a good tank and a group that communicates). If you are in an area with mesmer interupts, then Mantra of Resolve is a simple choice since there won't be many interupts after the initial cast due to repeated KD from multiple MS.
Even if Shatter Hex was a better choice for one to bring, why would you have a mesmer primary take it over a N/Me? The extra damage that could come from runes would be nice, but for a mesmer to be able to recast it along with other spells at their recharge, they would need to take up spots on their skill bar for energy management. A necro on the other hand only needs soul reaping.
I will admit that there will probably be some areas where a mesmer primary might work well, but unfortunately this will likely be the exception to the rule.
@ Lord DeArnise:
Yes, it is a pretty typical cookie cutter like build in the way that it works. This is because the way A-net has set up many high level areas, a wall/nuke combo is simply the most controlled environment that allows maximum damage and defense. I also think you were a bit confused since I wasn't talking about a warrior using Obsid Flesh. I was refering to a E/Me. The build allows the ele to be unaffected by spells (therefore never hexed) and with Mantra of Resolve and Mantra of Concentration, they aren't interupted. The enchantment is not stripped since most enchant stripping is from a spell. This build is not intended to be used against enemies with signet or other non-spell enchant strip skills. With a Rt/R support, Weapon of Quickening on the Obsid 'tank', Obsid Flesh can be continually cast with no down time. Also Symbiosis can be dropped to give the 'tank' huge health to be able to withstand life stealing type skills (such at Stygian Hungers that use necro touch skills). A Healer's Boon monk can cast a single Dwayna's Kiss and heal the 'tank' for 800-1,000+ health easily if life stealing is encountered.
If I may back up for a bit, I should let it be known that I am not a mesmer hater by any means. I only believe that there are many situations in PvE that mesmers are not the most efficient choice. In PvP and several specific PvE areas, however, a mesmer can be a very strong member of the party (*cough* prophecies monk bosses *cough*)
Lumenil
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by Ximm
Assasin's Promise (E)(gives energy and recharges all skills when hexed mob dies) Lightbringers Gaze Spiritual Pain Unnatural Signet Empathy Backfire Diversion/Guilt/Shatter Hex/Wastrels Worry Res Sig Assasin's Promise provides energy management AND istant recharging for all skills.. a mesmer can literaly spam AoE damage skills like Spiritual Pain, Mistrust, Shatter Hex, Lightbrigers Gaze.. then the foe dies, and the mesmer gain 17 energy at 12 Deadly Arts.. all his skills are recharged, and if he has previously used Guilt too, he can start again without pausing. I have tested, and it works, given than u are smart enough casting the hex on a foe you are sure is dieing. And obviously this option is not available for a n/me, since it's an assasin elite. Anyway, even without this build, mesmer classic energy management skills are never wasted slots like you seem to believe. If Power Drain (the most effective non-elite mesmer e-management skill) interrupts an Invoke Lighting spell, do u think its a wasted slot? Or if Guilt prevents a Gale to be casted on one of our monks, do you think the slot is wasted? You really cant understand the way a mesmer works, how shutting down the enemy, doesnt matter if a player or a npc, can be even more effective than just damaging him.
Njaiguni Blaze
Archon, please, leave us mesmers alone.
One of my favourites: Guilt [5e] - Prevents an enemy spell that targets a foe (not your foe) and steals(!) 15 energy. Another favourite: Spirit of Failure [10e] - Foe has a 25% chance to miss attacks, when it does so, you gain 4 energy. And before you say, 25% isn't much, try it, it is. Shame [10e] - Prevents an enemy spell that targets an ally (not your ally) and steals 15 energy Drain Enchantment [10e] - Removes an ench and you gain 15 energy Power Drain [5e] - Interrupts a spell and you gain 21(!!!) energy Hex Eater Signet - Removes a hex from target and all adjacent allies and gives you 5 energy for each. Since you got a tank which takes all aggro, just tell the team to ball up. Mantra of Recall [E] [10e] - Gives you 20 energy when it ends or is removed. The energy cost of this spell is not a point, you can cast it before battle. Drain Delusion [5e] - Removes a hex from target foe, foe loses 4 energy, you gain 8. Use this on a foe which you just cast phantom pain on for a deep wound, or on a foe which will die soon. Ether Lord [5e] - Lose all energy (so don't cast it when you got more than 5 energy XD), target foe has -2 energy regen, you get +2 energy regen for 8 seconds= bout 18 energy. Channeling [5e]= OK, maybe some people are scared to use it in the DoA, but with enough control you can get this spell to work good. Leech Signet, Lyssa's Aura, Energy Tap, Energy Drain Ether signet, Mantra of Frost, Mantra of Flame, Mantra of Lightning, Mantra of Earth, Power Leech etc. Thank you PS: Long Recharges? We got Psychic Distraction (dangg, I love that spell) or Mantra of Recovery for that. And then we can use the other proffesion skills too.
Njaiguni Blaze
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
In PvP and several specific PvE areas, however, a mesmer can be a very strong member of the party (*cough* prophecies monk bosses *cough*)
This made me laugh, especially cus I play my mesmer, well, all the time and found it much more fun, much more use and much more variety. You say you're no mesmer hater, but you surely sound like one
 (Don't care if you are, I don't get ticked by things like that, it's a game BTW, need a fast and effecient ress? Bring a mesmer. Oh, and did we all forget Essence Bond? Lady Callingwell
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
(Don't care if you are, I don't get ticked by things like that, it's a game |
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
BTW, need a fast and effecient ress? Bring a mesmer.
Oh, and did we all forget Essence Bond? Glyph of sacrifice + res chant 
Njaiguni Blaze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Callingwell
Glyph of sacrifice + res chant
30 second recharge Don't want that on my group, since when the tank dies, many people tend to finish off an enemy (even saying retreat doesn't work) and die utterly. Besides, when do people quit the most? Right, when they are waiting for a ress. Sadly most of the parties I group with are omg, 3 ppl dead, cyas, not waiting for you. And then to think it was they're own fault to die in the first place.
XvArchonvX
@ Lumenil:
Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
Yup, I've ran that build on my own mesmer. It's very nice in theory, but in many groups, enemies tend to all fall down at once from SS and MS. When this is the case, the mesmer is left doing one single damage spike from LB and SP. Mesmer energy management is not always a wasted slot, but when it can be replaced by skills that better suit the massive mob-fest that is PvE in many areas, then there are better choices. If interupts are needed, a Choking Gas + Practiced Stance ranger will be more effective with their AoE interupt. They can also take Savage Shot for a controlled interupt when needed as well that has a faster recharge. If your monk is being targetted by an ele, then stopping one gale from one enemy every 30 seconds won't make a terrible difference in a sea of many other eles. Also if these skills are the source of energy, then energy management is not as stable as it may be with other classes. If you face a mob with no casters, then you are facing them with much less energy. If you miss a P-drain (because yes, humans don't land every interupt they attempt), then you lose out on your damage potential. If your target dies before casting through Guilt, then you lose out on your damage potential. While any class has energy management that is conditional to an extent, the environment in many PvE areas make other classes more stable in their management. I understand that an enemy that is shutdown does no damage, but there's no getting around the fact that in late areas where there are huge mobs that attack at once, shutting down one enemy means nothing. This is why groups bring MS and Earthbind and/or a Choking Gas + Practiced Stance ranger. This tactic allows for AoE mob control. The tactic of having one person tank all the enemies while rest of the team supports the tank and nukes the grouped up enemies may seem cookie cutter, but when facing large high level mobs, it is simply more efficient to control the enemy and have your allies specialized so that they may complete their task in support of the group as effectively as possible. Beyond this tactic, there isn't necessarily a whole lot cookie cutter about the group. The tank can be a warrior, it can be a Shadow Form tag team, it can be an Obsid Flesh ele, and it could probably be some other build that hasn't been discovered yet. Rits often play the wild card since their spirits work well as a backup that effects the whole group. Can mesmers eventually fit in here somewhere? Proably so, but likely to a limited degree. I still find it sad that people think I'm bashing mesmers just because I don't think they are the best choice in every area. I've had my mesmer since early prophecies days, and have taken him through both PvE and PvP. There are exceptions to every rule, but unfortunately it has been my experience that by virtue of the mesmer's largely conditional strengths and weaknesses that they are not the most efficient choice in some circumstances. I don't doubt that many mesmer skills such as the ones Njaiguni Blaze mentioned can be amazing, but they don't really fit into environments that consist of wave after wave of mobs. Psychic Distraction is fun, but why bring a mesmer with that skill when you can bring a Choking Gas ranger? Quote: |
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
Oh, and did we all forget Essence Bond?
Nope, but you won't be using Assasin's Promise with a monk secondary. You also won't have much ability to use your secondary to be able to increase damage output (i.e. no Glyph of Renewal, etc.).
P.s. I hate to sound like the bad guy through all of this, but I really wish A-net would have set up the area differently so there were fewer enemies faced at a time that were harder to kill. If this was the case, there would need to be a more diverse strategy used to bring them down and a mesmer would be an excellent ally to take in this sort of the situation. Unfortunately, it's just another mob slaughter like the Deep.
boxterduke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Mesmers are great in the new areas. The problem is not with mesmers, it's with people that are stuck in their holy trinity of W-Mo-E.
It's pre-aoenerf party logic all over again! Could not have said it better myself. 90% of PuGs do not know what are they doing. Hell I was at Ruins of Morah with my Mesmer last week and did a "Mesmer LFG" for a bit with no invites, I grabbed my heroes and henches and got masters. I came back to the town and still saw the same people still looking for monks/nukers, I laughed and left the town.
Njaiguni Blaze
Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Nope, but you won't be using Assasin's Promise with a monk secondary. You also won't have much ability to use your secondary to be able to increase damage output (i.e. no Glyph of Renewal, etc.).
Psychich Distraction pwns Glyph of Renewal
XvArchonvX
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxterduke
Could not have said it better myself.
90% of PuGs do not know what are they doing. Hell I was at Ruins of Morah with my Mesmer last week and did a "Mesmer LFG" for a bit with no invites, I grabbed my heroes and henches and got masters. I came back to the town and still saw the same people still looking for monks/nukers, I laughed and left the town. Yea, I agree there, lots of pugs don't understand the potential of many classes. Mesmers and Assasins are great additions to a group for Ruins of Morah. Even though I don't think that mesmers are the most well suited class for many situations, I don't think that this should give most groups an excuse to not take one. The only places I would not take a mesmer to would be end game areas that consist of tons of big mobs attacking in waves, but for most PvE, a mesmer can do just fine. |
