Remove hero requirements already!

As i'm sure many of you have noticed half the missions and primary quests of Nightfall require you to have a particular hero with you.

My question is, why?

Throughout half the game Kormir is trailing around with you standing around while you fight groups looking dumb. Why can't they just make the required hero do that? Taking along 2 of the same hero makes 1 of them the name of there character skin. Can't be that hard to just make the required hero wander around doing nothing while a 'Sunspear Warrior' or something joins you in place of Koss.

All this dependency does is break up team play or just ruin perfectly well adjusted hero sets or even just screw the mission up completely by forcing you to take an underleveled hero.
Not 30 minutes ago i had to take a lvl4 Koss with me on a quest to Venta... now i have the honour of taking a lvl6 Koss with me through Venta Cemetery, i'm sure he'll be a valuable asset to the team.... or not. Or having to deny an 8th guildy or pug a place because some stupid hero 'needs' it. Or screwing up your hero build because you need to drop 1 of them for someone you don't really need.

So can we please do something about this, get rid of the requirements and make them tag along and do nothing.

I did Venta Cemetery with a level 4 Koss on my Elementalist with henchmen. Does that make me special? No, it means I was able to compensate for having a weak party member, like any PUG groups should.

Requiring to have a certain hero is usually a way of filtering out the people who either can't compensate, or aren't supposed to be there (If you take Master of Whispers, Pogahn Passage will be made a mission, but you won't be able to do it without having Magrid the Sly in your party).

/signed

i like playing with an 8 human party, while with this the maximum party size is decreased to 7...

I agree with the OP, having the Hero req for certain mission is annoying even though its still manageable. I suppose like many things that pertains to the PvE, its required as part of the story for Hero involvement so as to speak.

Oh come on like it actually matters if you do them both. You end up doing them sooner or later anyway and (if i recall) you can do the other half of the mission storyline by joining someone with the right hero anyway.

I wouldn't join a PUG to do a high level mission that had a lvl4 Warrior in it. Why should i be forced to make a team with 1? 1 that has low AL since its scaled on level and no decent items or runes because i don't want to use them.

Heroes can be leveled up, but I do agree making heroes requirements to go in is a waste when I'd rather have a person. Especially in that last one where you need Morgahn... ugh. I'm just glad I've beaten the game already.

I think there may be two sides to this.

One is that forcing us to take a hero leaves out room for a live person, the other is that if they make the hero just a non controlable npc then we have other issues.

I just went back and helped a friend with the first faction mission you get in the forien district. Mehnlo would not stop healing the minions after the first battle and never got around to opening the door. Once we killed off all the minions he was stuck andwould not move to the door.

If the heros are needed in the missions for the storyline then having them controlable may be best, I'd hate to get to the end of a mission and fail because i could not get the Hero close enough to trigger the final cut scene.

Yeah I agree. It's worst on a non-NF character, where a mission requires your level 8 Dunkoro in a level 20 area.

/signed

I find it really frustrating to bring a foreign char over, get a L6 Dunkoro, and then, before much of anything else, you're expected to take him with you on the Consulate Docks mission... which is full of L20+ monsters. Dunko won't be healing anything but himself for the duration of the mission....

Looking at people's complaints, I think it would be better to just up the level of the heroes when you get them on a non-Elonian character.

I've suggested before that I think heroes' levels should be permanently tied to that of the character. Thus, all your heroes level when you do.
Bring an L20 over from Tyria, and all the heroes you get are at L20 as well.

sunspear battle cry gives him lvl 20 health, problem solved.

I dont really care considering that I used koss and Dunkaroo (what I call him, australian joke) for most of the game anyway.

Hardest part was when I had to choose to save the gardens or the village, when my dervish hero was lvl 8 with my preorder sythe and default dervish skills.

Again with the story hating.

Last time it was "We hate gates because they dont let us skip the story"

This time its "We hate heroes actually being part of the story"

Here's an idea, why dont we just get rid of the story like all the PVP people wanted back in Prophecies and just make this a PVP only game.

Would that make you happy?

That wasn't the reason people hated gates.

That isn't the reason people hate heroes.

No, stop trying to stir trouble. This has nothing to do with PvP.

Moron boy, I was trying to make a point

Every time that Anet puts something in the game that forces the players to actually do something to move the story along, they complain.

Gates limited movement for players who had already completed the game once on a different character, forcing them to replay the story again on all their characters. They were not allowed to run past mission areas as they were in Prophecies. And so yes, this is why people hated gates.

People dislike the Heroes for the same reason. Quests and Missions require that you do a certain thing in order to get through to the next area. Forcing people through a certain standard, so that the story comes first rather than the player's wishes on how they proceede.

Removing these types of things would allow the player complete non-linear freedom in the story. But the story isnt non-linear. And so there must be some element in the game which forces you down a certain path.

OR you have games like Prophecies, where it is possible to run yourself from Lion's Arch to Sanctum Cay. Thus completely bypassing a good 40% of the game.

And I'm not stirring up trouble, you're trying to make it look that way.

PVP people in the Prophecies era used to call for the next chapter to have no PVE side at all. They claimed the game was meant to be only PVP and should be brought back to that.

Each time someone raises a stink about how they hate the way PVE is set up to make them actually play the story, is one more comment that Anet will consider when they decide whether or not to even make another story.

/signed

I hate having what is essentially a 7 party limit in missions. having a controllable npc is nice, however, if your going to require us to have heros, at least make it 9 person limit in missions. Hero leveling is another thing I hate, but that is for another discussion

Yup, I agree with you. Each chapter have different thing, so just think of it as a challenge other than complain. I dont like having the hero requirement either, but it's not a big deal for Anet to go back and change everything. I rather have them working on bugs,lags, update content and the next campaign than wasting time on this.

Question;

Im curious as to whether youve completed the game?

I have and from what I can remember, your statement saying "half the missions and primary quests of Nightfall require you to have a particular hero with you" is incorrect.

Out of 20 missions, I think its only about 1/4 that need a required Hero. Your only talking about 5 or 6.

And out of all the dozens of quests, most certainly do not require a Hero. I think its only the first few that do.

Nightfall contains alot of material, and even more now that they added the elite stuff.

There is more then enough leeway in the game to allow you go play in 100% human parties if you choose to do so.

As for this idea of not being able to use certain professions because you have a Hero taking up a slot. Thats a bit extreme.

• If your forced to use Koss, you can still take a second warrior.
• If your forced to use the master of whispers, you can take an SS or an MM still.
• If your forced to use the ranger, you can still use a second ranger.
• If your forced to take Dunkuro, then you can still take another Monk.

Im not seeing how anyone is disadvantaged or being forced to not use a profession.

I think thats more down to the mentality of the person, or people in the party.

If your the kind of person who gets very uptight, and stuck-up about having a pre-set party with the builds you want and the professions you want, so that you can play the way you want then thats your choice.

In which case, I can understand your frustration.

But thats not how I play.

I like to vary my parties and try other professions out. I dont have an issue about whether a slots already been taken up by a warrior or a monk or a ranger.

And again, there is more then enough material for you to play later missions or quests with 7 Guildies or 7 mates.

"Forcing you to take an underleveled hero"

Then level them up.

Anet are trying their best to help you do that, by making you use them and making you lvl them up, by requiring you to use them.

I did that with mine and it wasnt a huge problem. Everytime I got a new hero, I had them lvld up to lvl20 in about a day or two.

If you choose not to lvl your heroes, then its no ones fault but your own.

Make the required Hero an NPC

That would just detract from the story-line and your connection to the Hero you take with you.

Do you want every mission or quest, where you need a certain Hero, to contain an NPC?

Everyone mission or quest would then have a line saying:

"If .... dies, mission/quest fails."

You could be watching the NPC allllll the time.

Considering how many times a Hero or Hench can die, it would render missions and quests ALOT harder and frustrating.

We all know how frustrating NPCs are.

But anyway, my view on why Heroes are good;

I cant really see the issue with having requirements on you to use Heroes.

I played through the entire game (mostly with heros and henches I admit), and I didnt notice any disadvantage or annoyance at having to do so.

I actually like the idea.

It helps keep the story-line going and it gives this feeling of travelling with your heroes.

You cant deny that the story-line is 10 times better then that of Factions, and it wouldnt be as good without the Heroes and the requirement to use them.

It makes it feel more indepth and like your part of that world.

If they stopped forcing us to use Heroes in the first few parts of the game, then no one would use them.

You would come to a point in the game, and think "maybe its about time I used Koss" and find thats hes only lvl6 and utterly useless.

THEN you would have to grind to lvl up him. As you mentioned, you dont want to use a low lvl Hero do you.

Its also a learning curve.

Heroes are a new thing and they obviously want us to become familiar with them. And as with most new technology, we have to be forced to use it or we wont.

If they use them in future campaigns, they might not force us to use them like they do in NF, because we'll know how to by then.

As for the "picking Heroes" system, or what ever name you want to give it.

I like the idea having to choose which Hero to aquire instead of another.

It changes the story line slightly and adds variety to it. Something neither previous campaign does.

(Obviously by the end you get the other Heroes anyway and play the missions you missed, so it does no harm the long run.)




But as I mentioned. Its not "half" of the game which your forced to use them. Its only about the first quarter they do that. And quite understandably, in order to make you familiar with Heroes and to feel comfortable using them.

You'l have more then enough time in later missions and quests to just work with humans.

Do you know how long it takes to get a level 4 koss to level 15?

took me about 15 minutes 2 scrolls and a few hunts east out of yohlon haven.

I question whether you actually paid attention throughout your trek across Nightfall.

Each and every mission requires a certain hero, save for Tihark Orchard, Dasha Vestibule (they just give you Goren as an ally to keep alive), Gate of Madness and Abaddon's Gate. That's 16/20 missions that require you to bring a certain hero.

Chahbek Village - Koss
Jokanur Diggings - Melonni
Blacktide Den - Tahlkora
Consulate Docks - Dunkoro
Venta Cemetery - Koss
Kodonur Crossroads - Zhed Shadowhoof
Rilohn Refuge - Master of Whispers
Pogahn Passage - Margrid the Sly
Moddok Crevice - Dunkoro
Tihark Orchard - Solo
Dzagonur Bastion - Master of Whispers
Dasha Vestibule - None
Grand Court of Sebelkeh - Tahlkora
Jennur's Horde - Koss
Nundu Bay - Melonni
Gate of Desolation - Zhed Shadowhoof
Ruins of Morah - General Morgahn
Gate of Pain - Dunkoro
Gate of Madness - None
Abaddon's Gate - None

If you alternate the heroes you use; by the time you leave Kourna they'll all be atleast 18 (all the heroes you have upto that point anyway). If you just want to use the same heroes over and over and leave all the others at low lvl's; that's you're choice.

I think Dasha Vestibule requires Margrid in your party. As its the counterpart to Dzagonar Bastion mission (which requires Whispers).

Ok so I was apparently wrong about that. But the fact that I couldnt even remember that stuff, just shows how little an impact it had on my playing NF.

I couldnt even remember using all those required Heroes because surprise, surprise id had no major impact on my playability.

It didnt detract from anything, or remove any fun.

Thats my main point to the OP.

Having to use certain heroes in missions, doesnt impact on the gameplay at all.

It improves the storyline and it may force those who dont like to, to use AI, but so what?

What about those of us who dont like using humans because their pains in the a** most of the time. You dont see us complaining when we're forced to in order to do a hard mission or to do the elite missions.

But if you dont like using Heroes, then go play proph or factions where you dont have to. We all knew long before it was released, that Heroes were going to be a main aspect of the game, and then people still complain.


But the OP did also state that half the quests also require a hero, and I know I cant be wrong in saying that is absolute rubbish.

Ok so half the missions require a Hero, but the missions arent all of the game iis about!

Alot more aspects dont rely on Heroes.

[QUOTE=freekedoutfish]Ok so I was apparently wrong about that. But the fact that I couldnt even remember that stuff, just shows how little an impact it had on my playing NF.

I couldnt even remember using all those required Heroes because surprise, surprise id had no major impact on my playability.[quote]

Which suggests you used them anyway, and didnt have to use them when you wanted to use something else.

its more of a pain when you have to use (ie) koss when youve had no interest in using him, and have kitted out (ie) zhed.


Having to use certain heroes in missions, does impact on the gameplay.

Does it?

And forcing people to play with AI is good?


you have a problem with constructive critisism?

But like me, you dont acutally know your just guessing.

"But like me, you dont acutally know your just guessing."

Well ive finised the game and ive only 2 or 3 quests left in ROT, so it is actually a safe bet I do know whether half of the quest require a hero.

They dont!

But then again, I could obviously do what the previous poster did and go on guildwiki or a similar sight, and look up all the quests and find out...

...but im actually at work and have better things to be doing, and thats just sad.

"you have a problem with constructive critisism?"

As for not being able to take criticism. I dont mind criticism. It was the torn in which 'explodemyheart' replied to me I didnt appreciate.

My reply to the OP was very polite in the way I asked whether he had completed the game. I didnt use sarcasm or an arrogant tone.

Or if I did I apologise, but it wasnt the intention.

And yes, ofcourse making us take Heroes into missions improves the storyline.

It keeps us connected to the people we're playing along side and shows us how they develop themselves along with the story.

It helps us sympothise with these characters and it helps us feel their pain and anguise at abaddon and the effect hes having. So we feel more want to move through and help them and kill him.

As I said in a previous reply, would you rather all the required Heroes were replaced by NPCs in missions and quests? as the OP suggested!

I know I wouldnt, because as I already said too; You would have most missions stating "such and such cannot die, or mission fails" and that WOULD impact on the missions. NPCs are stupidly unreliable.

Now the way I see it is this;

Either we do that, and replace required heroes with NPCs who we will have to look after like babies incase they die because we cant res them.

Or we completely remove Koss and Dunkuro and the rest from the storyline.

What would that leave us?

A rather empty story.

So yes!

They do impact on missions, but not in a bad way. They add many aspects to the storyline.

For instance going to save one Heroes village, and then going to save the Garden with Koss. Having to choose which one to rescue or which one first.

How would instances like that work if the Heroes werent there? They are part of the story and we need them. How can you not see that?

The entire primis of NightFall is leaps and bounds ahead of factions and its almost as good as Prophercies.

I just find it hard to understand why people want one of the key aspects of that storyline basically removed.

I think Anet has done a great job personally.

"its more of a pain when you have to use (ie) koss when youve had no interest in using him, and have kitted out (ie) zhed."

Is it really that much hard work to kit a hero out?

You give them the odd sword or sheild which drops during gameplay and your sorted. And we all know swords and sheilds drop allll the time.

If you want to spend more time getting good weapons for alternative heroes, then go ahead.

I did that, and now most of mine have pretty decent greens or purples or golds which I got from previous games or from drops in NF. No effort made at all.

"And forcing people to play with AI is good?"

Your forcing them to use 1 AI player.

A player who you can customise and set its skills.

If their not lvl'd up or working very well, then its no ones fault but the player.

Its not exactly like cutting off a limb is it! As Ive also said, countless other aspects of the game dont need Heroes, which leaves countless times to take guildies and mates for a walk through the game.



But if you want to read my proper, original reply to this thread and not the one I posted after the criticsm, then do that. Dont jump to a conclusion about me without obviously reading what I posted before hand.

I assume you didnt anyway, if you did then sorry.

So you dont know then......

You could have all that and not have to have them in your party, just do what alot of missions do and tag them onto the bottom.



No, its leveling (see next)

I wanted to use hero 1 2 and 3, i didnt want to use meloni, then i get a mission where i HAVE to use her, and guess what shes level 9 and its a hard area, so i basicly have to flag her to stand back and leave her out the mission, or get into a party with someone who has a non useless meloni.

So its my fault i havnt taken the time to level them up, see the problem

Im forced to take heros i dont want to use to get the lvl req, or basicly have them stand out the way to stop dieing, seems pointless taking them then.
No its workable

But just because something works, dosnt mean it cant be improved.

Doesn't make much sense..


Anyways, back to topic, I agree with the Op, I finished NF with a new char so the heroes were leveling (almost) at my pace, then I took my tyrian monk to elona, woohoo, koss level 3 and missing (primary quest)! This is just frustrating, /startrant why should I even spend 15 min to 2 days (seems like a big variation there in the replies).. power leveling a hero, can I charge him 2k per level and I pay for the scrolls? /endrant

they should just remove heros from the game, period. too hard to find people to group with. even if the pug i get sucks and we die, at least i have fun. i pay for my cable modem for a reason, to play multiplayer games. people hardly even talk to u now that they have their new hero friends that heil them as their gods and will jump/dance etc at their very command. they made heros so u could always find a group. well it sure works cause the only group ull find now is the damned heros. personally i just flag my heros into large mobs to their doom and then LMAO and piss on their corpses. kinda like how i bought a mini rurik so i could kick him down the stairs!

I don't think your getting this.

For my Ranger, Koss/Morgahn/Melonni have no place as a hero, i stick to Marge, Jin and either Olias or Dunkoro/Tahlkora.

For my Elementalist, Koss/Melonni/Master of Whispers/Tahlkora/Dunkoro have no place as a hero, i stick to Zhed, Sousuke and Morgahn. (does melonni actually have a use anywhere?)

I have NO reason to use them ever. I do not want to 'alternate' heros. The most alternating they get is been switched in to recieve quest rewards. How the hell is been forced to take Morgahn for Ruins of Morah gonna help anyone? I for 1 took my ranger through NF first so i had jack shit in terms of Paragon skills. Not only do i have to take Morgahn, i have to take a completely useless 1 who has no place in the team AT ALL. Sure he could have a use if i had plenty of skills for him and 7 slots open for heros, but i don't. So he's taking a spot a useful hero or a guildy could take.

We don't have to take a Dervish with us to Pug FoW or UW or the Domain of Anguish, so why the hell should we have to take 1 with us on a specific mission or quest because shes vital to the story? Making her wander around as an NPC isn't the trickiest thing in the world to implement.


Really? Ever tried doing Grand Court 8 times because your stupid leeroying twats of heros are been helped along by a low level Tahlkora in place of your regular lvl20 Dunkoro who actually has runes? Yeah that removed quite a lot of fun actually.

Cost of Elswyths Recurve Bows for my 2 Ranger heros on 1 character. 5k each.
Cost of the 2 Major Vigours i bought them. 4k each.
Cost of the 2 Sup Marksmanships i bought them. 500-1k each.
Thats about 20k setting up 2 heros to make them decent on ONE account.

Thats an average of maybe 10k per hero per character if you buy runes and items. So 30k to set up the 3 heros you WANT to use properly so they're EFFECTIVE.

Well it makes him slightly more effective... but he's still lacking runes and a proper weapon/shield. And as we all know Warrior runes ARE NOT CHEAP.

I don't want to, its that simple. I'd quite happily give my Rangers' Koss an Ice Breaker that i have customised to use for a bit. But i'm not prepared to buy him 1, specially as i might decide to make him a sword warrior later.

Well good for you... personally i'd rather sell all the crap i get than give it to a hero i'll never use without been forced. To kit a hero out can be quite simple if you prepared for it. But are you carrying around 20 max damage swords now just to give Koss and Goren when you reach them? Or 20 max damage Bows with the type you want?

As has been mentioned earlier... Dunkoro is forced upon you at lvl6(ish) for Consulate Docks... Perhaps you can't get a team/guildy with a lvl20 version to help? He's a useless git. Luckily he has his moments while smiting since he's quite good at been told to put SoJ on before you run in. You don't have a great deal of selection with the heros but theres no harm in at least letting you take some useful ones.

It's part of the Campaign.

It is true that they should be give to you with you same level, other than that.

All the missions can e made and mastered as they are.

I agree with all but this, you dont need to spend money to kit them out, its the TIME you have to spend leveling heros you dont want to use, because you want to use other heros.

No you dont NEED to level them, you can do the missions with low level heros, but then all you do is put them at the back and give them a few token skills, what is even the point of taking them then.

I've hated this concept since the inception of it as well.

/unsigned. Not too much of a reason, I just level them up.

I created my Dervish now and stopped at first mission. I dont like Koss, I dont like any other Hero. I dont wanna have them in my party. I dont want to do missions in Desolation where my hero will get 1 hitted coz I dont want to use him. I wanna henchway it all. It makes me wanna stop playing NF even more than those closed doors in F did.

Well yes I agree with the cost of the equipement for every hero for all your chars (something 120 heores in my case). We really should be allowed to craft weapons for them as for PvP chars (and use runes we have unlocked). However, I don't think leveling heroes is that a problem. You're likely to have low level heores for the 1st missions, but they are easy enough. And the heroes required should be level 18-20 for the other missions if you take your non-lvl 20 heroes in your party before you receive a quest reward, and take one or 2 of them in your party when you go to an explorable.

Back on the topic of heroes required in missions. Yeah, I also hate that sometimes, but that's a part of the stoyline. In factions we also had NPCs in our team (Togo, Mhenlo, Danika, etc), but they were added to our team. We were able to have a team of 8 but the downside was if the dude was killed, the mission failed. And I must say compared to that, I like the hero requirement better. At least you don't have to start over of they die.

I think if we look at all the people with complaints about the Hero's we might find a split between most of the new players and the ones with the previous two chapters.

When i did the consulate docks mission with my new nightfall char my heros were the same lvl but had access to 100+ skills and elites that I have unlocked inthe previous two chapters. They were actually much stronger than my new char and when I brought my Prophicies char over the Heros were quite cappable with the right skill set up.

For people that have not unlocked enough skills and Elites for all the proffesions the Hero's can be a burden, but if you've unlocked enough skills the can run most builds and are no set back to any mission.

As for cutting out one live player, 7 people gives you plenty to talk to and have fun with. It would be a totaly different story if each person had to bring there required hero.

Some free advise for any new player, go to the arenas and gain some Balthazar Faction. Then use it to unlock high lvl skills for your heros, it really makes a huge diffence in there abilities!

O.O i can't believe some of you.

Heroes>henches>pugs

If your heroes are getting killed with one hit they must be level 3 or something. I've done nearly everything in NF with heroes and hench and they are awesome

"So you dont know then......"

Obviously your ignoring the bit where I quite clearly stated that most quest DONT need heroes!

Anyway.

"You could have all that and not have to have them in your party, just do what alot of missions do and tag them onto the bottom."

*roles eyes*

Did you also completely ignore the bit where I stated that one alternative to Heroes is to use NPCs!!!!! Which is where they "tag them onto the bottom." and you then have some guy following you around.

You would honestly rather have an NPC in every single one of the missions and quests instead of the required Hero?

An NPC who, when they died, the mission would fail?

And yes they would make it so the mission failed if they died, because they are part of the storyline.

So you would have just under 20 missions of having to baby sit an NPC and keep them alive?

Instead of taking an Hero, who you can control, tell where to go, set their skills and their agression? and ressurect.

Nightfall has missions and quests where you have to follow an NPC and protect them, and most are flawed and dodgey and frustrating. As they always are when you involved NPCs.

Sorry I just find hard to believe someone who must have played GWs a while, wud make such a suggestion.

"I wanted to use hero 1 2 and 3, i didnt want to use meloni, then i get a mission where i HAVE to use her, and guess what shes level 9 and its a hard area, so i basicly have to flag her to stand back and leave her out the mission, or get into a party with someone who has a non useless meloni."

Set her to non-aggressive! She will stay at the back, then if you have a team of humans (as is the point of the debate here), you will all get agro'd instead of her.

Or lvl her up!!!!!

I admit I entered the game at lvl20 and obviously power-lvld my heroes, so I didnt have any issues with low lvl Heroes when doing missions!

But I find it hard to believe they are that hard to lvl up when doing the game from the start. But I dont know, so I wont comment on that.

But this comes back to using NPCs instead of Heroes too;

Your saying you dont want a pointless Hero there to hang at the back and do nothing.

Yet you want them to replace the hero with an NPC who will most likely attack every mob in the area and get itself killed and end the mission?

Id still rather go with the Hero myself. The person I have control over.

"So its my fault i havnt taken the time to level them up, see the problem "

Well yes!!! You havent really got an counter-argument agains that, because it is your fault if you dont lvl Heroes up, or use them right.

"Im forced to take heros i dont want to use to get the lvl req, or basicly have them stand out the way to stop dieing, seems pointless taking them then."

Your only forced to use ONE hero in these missions. That leaves you 7 spaces. The first few parts of Nightfall are not that hard, that a 7 human team cant manage with one Hero in tore.

But again, if their low level, then set then to non-aggressive and then your remaining human team can take the brunt of it.

Im not trying to have a go at you or anyone here, but your all making very bad excuses as to why you cant use Heroes.

They have options on them for aggression and you can set their skills and their weapons.

If their not working effectively, then its the fault of the user, not Anet or the software.

This is like half of the people I get calling me up at work saying they dont know how to use my software. 9/10 times its because they havent bothered to read the manual or their not using it correctly.

This could be due to Anet not teaching you well enough, or due to you not caring about Heroes. I suspect its the last one. But instead of complaining about a new technology which your given, learn to use it.

I seem to have managed perfectly fine through the entire game with them.

Easy missions require you to take a hero.

Hard missions do not require a hero.

And besides: The level 4 Koss at the docks makes a really nice tank. Much better than most tanks available there. Dunkoro at level 6 is a better healer than most human healers there.

And no, this isn't a random rant about PUGs. But that mission has level 16-20 mobs, with 2 groups, one including a MM, and the only thing that can wipe you there is the elementalist boss.

The low level characters there only look weak. They do just fine. On all characters I've gotten through, I didn't bother leveling any of the heroes. You don't need to.

The reason why so many claim that PUGs suck and heroes are superior, is because Nightfall is really easy. It's too easy. The effects of this can be seen in Domain of Anguish thread discussions on any and all boards.

where do heroes go when you enter a town?