Melee characters are too easily shut down in pvp

I've been playing this game since day one, and I don't know if the situation has become worse or I am just now at a point of really noticing it, but melee characters are way, way too easily countered. Conditions like blind and cripple will make melee characters completely useless. The counters to these conditions aren't really counters when most times the conditions get reapplied before whatever you used to take them off has even recharged. Hexes like Faintheartedness and Blurred vision effectively halve any melee players damage output and, much like current condition removals, the available hex removals (except possibly Holy Veil and Contemplation of Purity) don't qualify as actual counters. Then there are hexes Like Spiteful Spirit and Empathy that either completely shut a melee character down or make him as dangerous to himself and/or team as anyone he may be swinging at. Of course that's assuming the caster has gone easy on him and not stacked enough hexes on him to kill him outright. Stances are the only nuisance that a melee character can actively counter as there are attack skills that prevent the target blocking or evading.

Rangers have to suffer all of the above and worse as nothing more than some fancy footwork by your target will result in evades and strays. Additionally there seems to be increased instances of of shots being 'obstructed' when they most certainly have a clear path to the target. Plus there's that nice little skill activation bug that keeps you from activating a skill even though you are in range for the shot. Maybe this is part of the reason why so many rangers are running around now with hammers or wands instead of bow.

I don't know if the mechanics of the game were actually balanced at the beginning and have gotten worse over time, or if the imbalances that have always existed are just getting exploited more frequently now, but it seems melee classes are being left behind in the effectiveness department. And the older classes seem to be be fairing much worse in this regard than the newer ones. Anyway, I just felt the need to rant, and I'm sure I'll get some ranting back. And before anyone tells me I should just adapt, I have. When I want to kill things in pvp my ranger and warrior get left behind - I take my necro.

Warriors have one thing that no other class can boast: The highest general DPS of any character.

So, it makes sense that they should be easily shut down. If you don't they're gonna rip your whole team to shreds.

For Rangers, it's more about surprise than anything else. They have pretty unconditional interrupts, but they're reliant upon actually hitting your target. That's fair.

So, I'd say that the game is still balanced, and you just need to understand how a bit better.

I'd recommend spending some time in Observer mode and browsing PvP sections in the forums. And of course, PVP more! But yes, it's all pretty well balanced. Melee characters do damn good DPS and so they have good counters to shut them down.

Did you notice that warriors have the highest armor in the game, followed by rangers ? Now, of course, paragons are in there as well.

And yet, melee characters are still the damage dealers in most builds decent guilds run. It's easy to shut them down, but it's just as easy for a monk or even the warrior itself to remove what's shutting him down.

With a good monk backing your play some warrriors are nearly unkillable, or very very hard to take down. Also a w/a can easily get thru blind or any of the other conditions, hexes are easly removed by a good monk.

If melee characters aren't shutdown they are killing machines. The balance is just right if you ask me. There are plenty of skills to remove conditions and hexes.

Mesmer with warrior stopper build is fun!

Random arenas are not an accurate representation of PvP balance. That is all.

I know it's considered the dirge of pvp, and with the likes of some I've played with I completely understand why. But it and even the comments here are reflecting the point I'm trying to make. Warriors, rangers, and sins NEED proper backup to be effective. Dervishes and Paragons seem to need this backup a lot less. Casters don't need this backup at all to be effective. And by being effective I mean using the skills on your bar to do what you came to do- kill things.

Since when does my monk not need backup to kill things? I'm constantly crying for my team to chase away the warriors raging in my face. Or my ele, for instance. If there's a decent interrupt ranger within aggro range, I'm pretty much going to wet my pants and hope someone else can take care of it. You shouldn't expect to plow through each and every class unsupported, especially not classes who specifically set up to kill you.

If you're playing RA you still CAN make a warrior, ranger or assassin that's self reliant. Delve into your secondary.

W/N with plague touch much?
hate hexes soo much?
W/Me with hex breaker?

just little things you can do to counter some problems to some extent.
They work work fine in RA

Nonsense. Go in as a standard ele/necro/mesmer build and see how much you're able to do if you get Backfire on you... or Diversion... or an interrupter targetting you... or an assassin ganking you... or Migraine/Arcane Conundrum...

The thing is, most stuff in the game can be countered. Any character dealing physical damage can be shut down with Blind/Empathy/SS and other stuff. Any caster can be shut down via Backfire/Interruption and other stuff.

The only classes which gets an easier time are probably defensive paragons and monks. Although there's powerful shutdown hexes against chants and shouts, no one ever carry them, so Paragons have little risk of being shut down. Monks have an insanely powerful selection of ways to remove hexes and conditions that they have little risk as well.

I seem to remember something about classes called mesmers and monks, and some weird voodoo they use to make hexes and conditions go away.

Although, I hear that isn't the case in random arena, and that it requires some obscure thing called teamplay.

I do go in as a Necro, and with all that and more I am still much harder to counter than my Ranger or Warrior. Backfire is deadly on a caster, but if you wait it out you have some time to throw as many hexes on that mesmer as you want before he can cast it on you again. Diversion, again just wait it out. And it's a lot easier to cancel a spell when it gets thrown on you mid-cast than cancel an attack skill. Interupter? Easy, find cover, cast behind walls, dance around like a freak and he can't touch me. Sins have a hard time ganking me when I just halved their attack rate. I can usually even get another spell off before I have to run away.

Hex removal is really really lacking for non-caster primaries. Most are either too expensive for a melee primary to use effectively or have such a long cast and recharge time they are useless against anyone armed with more than one hex.

The only hex and condition 'counters' I've found to actually be worth carrying on my melee characters are Restful Breeze and Mending Touch. The former will at least let me live through a hex stack even though I am completely shut down, and the latter will at least keep the degen-conditions and deep wounds at bay, even though it only takes off blind and cripple just in time for them to be reapplied again.

And as for warriors putting out the most DPS, that's just not true anymore. I have a nasty little sin/derv scythe build that brings the pain like no other melee build I've ever seen (assuming, of course, it isn't shut down with hexes or conditions). It can throw deep wounds and scythe crits around all day long and right from the start.

I play a Dervish, and yes, getting shut down completely is definitely annoying, especially because it seems so easy for the opponent. Cast a spell or two and you're disabled for 10+ seconds. However, I also realize the alternative. Allow me in the face of a low-armor target and I'll be doing up to (or exceeding) 300 damage in 5 seconds, removing several enchantments in the process, and if the opponents are clumped up I'll be multiplying that damage quite nicely due to the lovely scythe "cleave". Considering the fact that shut-down mechanics can be removed both by your team and yourself if you have the right secondary profession, I'd say that it's fairly reasonable. Physical damage is still considered the most consistent and reliable by most people, and it seems to me that the vast majority of PvP team builds are based on warriors, thumpers etc.

I've never played a warrior so I won't go into detail about them.

well if you cant get around all of these counters, you're not worthy of playing a melee character

You talk the talk but you can't walk the walk. Why don't you enlighten me to how a warrior or other melee class can somehow get around melee hate whilst still maintaining some semblemance of offense. Tell me how you can counter stances, condition spam, hex spam, prot spells, wards, kiting and a whole host of other things with a measely 8 skills. It aint gonna happen. Self condition removal is terribly weak in this game, when their are disgusting skills like blinding surge and crip shot floating around. And when someone continues to stack hexes on you aint no hex removal will help. Hex removal is just too weak unless you are a monk main.

Melee characters have been the backbone of so many top PVP guild builds yet some of you insist that melee characters can't overcome these counters? Please stop posting.

Get a decent team together. And while you're doing that, think of how all the soft targets would feel if there wasn't a way to shut melee characters down.

Have you read Why Nuking Sucks? Once you see (and understand) the math, you will understand why warriors have the highest sustainable DPS of all the classes in GW.

I agree, I don't understand it either. I have yet to see a warrior even come close to the chain killing speed of an elementalist. And with the right setup, an ele never has to run out of energy either.

The whole game is balanced around other professions and builds depending on others. No one prof or build can do it all, which is where the RA paradox comes in. It's an arena that promotes self-reliance in a game that promotes team synergy.

Basically, outside of RA, it's your team's ability to counter those counters that's important, not whether one single person can do it or not. Unfortunately for RA, you either have to work a build that can do it or just suck it up and try something else entirely.

LOL QFT dude I'm dying laughing right now...bloody sore body tells me not to laugh cuz it hurts but I can't help it lolololol

(blinking punching bag hurt me more than I hurt it)

also yeah I agree that melee chars are easily countered and at the same time can remove the counters...but have YOU ever had a flashbot and/or a melee hate mesmer in your face? BTW there is the one thing you can do, that is rarely found, the ultimate caster hate condition, daze.

Also I'm seeing this "zomg warriors=DPS pwnzors stuff of teh uber in teh game" stuff again.. and before I could agree with it but has anyone tested a Derv's pure dps vs. a warrior's dps? I think the Derv will win :-\

Actually, melee wise, I just saw a video of a Rt/A build that made me jump back on my rit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0BOL7CtVDo

hoooooollllyyyy $#!7 that rit was owning everything and their family, I have GOT to find out what skills that one was using.. I need me some glad points,

Maya said it already, but I think this merits reposting.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319

Emperical mathematical evidence demonstrating why Warriors are used more as damage dealers than eles.

P.S. Top guilds didn't get up there by sucking at the game and being stubborn about what they believe to be true.

Sweet Chuck Norris, what was that! That has got to be the craziest GW video I've seen.

I recognize the sin skills on the bar. Golden Pheonix Strike, Horns of the Ox, Falling Spider, and Blades of Steel in the first 4 slots, and obviously rez in the 8th. I can't make out the 3 rit skills though. I'm still researching though.

Yea, it's impressive when all goes well, but I like an IW mesmer, one enchant strip completely shuts down this build. I ran into one of these when messin around in RA with a necro and had fun watching the rit running around doing next to no damage without his enchant.

Sight Beyond Sight.
Vital Weapon.
Spirit's Strength.

This is exactly why I bring my N/Me into RA - there are way too many gimmick builds that are easily destroyed with enchantment removal to ignore the potential kills (i.e. 55 builds, IW, this Rt build, etc).

Gee? I wonder why? Because if we nerfed some of the shutdown skills, warriors would be overpowered? Sins and Dervs as well..

There plenty of easy ways to keep Melee chars going, there are no more or less power than the non melee types. Blind, cripples - there plenty of fast recharge condition removals, hexes - theres plenty of hex removals too. And theres also the possiblity of !shock horror! teamwork where u get a monk, ritualist or mesmer to help u out with condition or hex removal

As for rangers there plenty of ways to increase accuracy, using preps, spirits, or using a different bow. The reason theres loads of hammer Rangers is because its a FoTM and poeple like to follow trends rather than trying to think up there own builds.

and as for this:
lol thats so completely untrue, the only thing Warriors can boast is they have the highest base armour value. And before u complain, yes ive read why nuking sucks but i find it totally untrue its doesnt take into account alot of things.

A monk. Are you only playing warrior in random arena? seriously, warrior hate isnt that big of a deal. HA you usually have a divert hexes or RC, a convert, a draw, dismiss, something. GvG monk builds are so versatile that i dont even know anymore, but like a blessed light, probably a convert or two, extinguish, a draw.

Lets see monks with divert hexes and restore conditions generally can get the job done. If you're having an issue with your arrows being dodged bring favorable winds or read the wind should help ya out.

That the OP is complaining about this when warriors etc. are perhaps at their most efficient in terms of handling shutdown is astounding.

Between Signets of Malice, Remedy Signet, Plague Touch, Mending Touch and other condition removals melee players are tougher than ever to keep shut down via conditions, and while hexing is problematic there are ways to clear those as well for many builds. Heck, I've seen W/Rt using Sight Beyond Sight, since it's 5 (6 with enchanting mod) seconds of hitting through blind even at 0 Spawning Power, enough to get a spike off every 30 seconds.

I don't think that shutdown is much better than it was, though self-removal of conditions is leaps and bounds better than it was at first.

To be fair however, the era of the W/Mo being king of arenas is over, as people learned how to fight melee. Perhaps the biggest change is in fact simply experience fighting against melee, and that people are getting smart enough to actually kite rather than tank a snared warrior.

I think the biggest arguement in favor of the massively disruptive presense of warriors lies in the fact the damage that isn't dealt to the foe is dealt to party energy suppies and organization. Keeping up all the anti-warrior hate and healing any damage can be immensely taxing on one's energy. With new skills out like crippling slash, you're all alone, and shadow prison, the pressure exerted by one or two warriors on an ill-prepared group can be backbreaking. Coming in contact with those skills one on one usually spells the end for that player. Still worse, after all the trouble you'll go through enduring that pressure, they can still turn around and spike something for even more ridiculous amounts of damage. If they're good at it, only predicting the spike will save you.

Which arena are you playing? The chances of getting this much hate in random arena is 0. You will get a team with a degen mesmer or necro. You may get an odd warder or ritualist. You may get a blindbot. But getting all at the same time is unlikely.

HA. Rules are different here, but the metagame is very strong. Warriors dominated there during IWAY era, after that they were just one of the classes.

GvG? That is considered the pinnacle of PvP in GW. There are no excuses in GvG. You do, or you don't. The teams that walk home with prizes from world championships "do".

There are hundreds or thousands of possible anti-melee builds. They can make a warrior or any melee cry. But then again, there are also just as many anti-caster, anti-monk and other anti-anti builds. You will never make a build that will be self-sufficient. Deal with hexes, can't deal with conditions. Deal with both, and you lack the damage.

And lastly, grass is always greener on the other side. Try playing a degen/anti-melee class. And only then will you start crying how useless everything makes you. Go monk. And you'll see how hard they get hit. Go blindbot. And realize what playing a caster is like. When you get lots of hate, it seems others have it so easy.

And no, there is no "one build to rule them all". This is the first thing to learn. Learn your weakness, use your strengths. Plague touch will not save you from hex spam. Hex breaker will not get you rid of blindness. And sometimes, you will just be stuck with one or another. That's the consequence of random groups.

But anything said about melee being easy to shut down applies to every class. Once you play a monk, and see 5-10 hexes being put on you, leaving you at -10 health and -2 energy regen, backfire preventing you from healing even yourself, let alone others, only the you realize how badly any class can be shutdown. Guess what? A warrior would shred such degen class in a matter of seconds.