Putting an End to solo 55, dual UW, 3 man Trapping, 5 man FoW, 9 man The Deep

Ok, first of all i know that there are a lot of people here who play 55 monks, or dual Uw, or 5 man Fow and etc, so most of these people are going to think "Omfg u r a fu* n00b there is nothing worng with soloing uw, stfu n00b". But i dont care . So i hope that the inteligent people read this.

Ok, we all know that playing with Underworld with only 1-2 players or doing Fissure of Woe with 5 man makes ectos and shard have a price higher then it should be, and we all know that and know why. So, if we cant "nerf" all builds whenever we see one specific class playing alone getting all the goods, i was thinking in one definite solution and then i thought about this:
Limiting drops for teams who have less players then it should be, and increasing drops for those how have the max numberof players.
For example, if i decide to go to UW with 4 players, then my teams drop rate would be 50%, since the maximum number of players is 8. But if i decide to go with 8, we would have 100% drop rate, plus another 20% for having a full team (120%).
I think by this, would put a definite end to solo builds, because people wouldnt want to pay 1,000 gold to enter UW and have a 12,5% of drop rate. It would be more interesting to have a full team, wich you could be the lucky man to have these 20% as a bonus. And also, it would incentivate players to play with other people, as it should be.
Now one thing that would be bad about this is that people leave at the middle of the game, but i thought about that. The drop rate law would be applied 5 to 10 minutes before you enter, and counting the numer of players that are in your team at that time, and would never decrease/increase. Because i know how persistent people can be, some of the 55 monks would get heroes at the beggining or add some random people that would eventually leave or die and have the aditional 20% for themselves. And noone would like to wait 10 minutes to start a run or would notice that the monk with 55 hp isnt planning to play until you die.

I think its better to create a little program for this then to keep on trying to nerf farming

Guess again. I tend to hit up ToPK/FoW as a b/p group so 120% drop rate there = gg. Nice idea though ^^

Oh, and btw... 5-10mins before you enter? How would it know that you're still not getting a party together then?

*enter UW, tell heroes to stay, 55 away*. Or even, start seeing people selling themselves to enter with a 55 to up party numbers, then leave ^^

Just my 2 cents. Nice idea though.

Unlike the person that wrote this.........

If you mean it causes inflation then yes you are correct, however at the same time it also drops the price as well. Because the market becomes flooded with shards/ectos and as we all know, once supply starts to exceede demand prices go down.

While this IS a good idea, it has only one flaw I can see. What happens when demand exceedes supply in an already severely over inflated market? Prices go way up!

Not to mention the extra lag all those calculations would cause. "But hey its only like one or two extra. How can that cause lag?" Remember that this would have to be done for each and every instance of every zone in the game multiple times. So times that one or two extra calculations by several thousand.

Before you ask. Yes I AM a programmer so I actually have an idea of what I am talking about.

I'm at risk of mirroring what the above poster just said but something about this idea confuses me.

You reduce supply to the market and you expect prices to drop?

Anyhow my main point is wTF!!!!!111 NOOB! Nerf my build!!!!1. Ok that's out of the way. Seeing as your main point for this is to reduce prices on ecto and shards and you haven't shown a shred of evidence that this would be the case with a reduced supply I think the point is moot.

However without messing with the drop rate which I would *assume* would be considerable work, if you wanted to prevent 2/3 man teams entering just make it so that you couldn't enter without a full team. Of course this would lead to what the above poster mentioned, people selling themselves to join and leave once inside.

And what if they added the 'program' to the map itself? Its not like they need to create a program linked to the server that is linked to every map that is created.

You'd still end up with the same lag issue I imagine.

Or do you just want this in UW/FoW? Otherwise it'd occur *everywhere*. Even Pre-Searing . Just imagine how many thousands of people are playing at one time, ya?

Id like to read your suggestion, but i 55 so im to stupid to read it.

"I don't know how to solo farm, nerf solo builds..."

It comes down to skill. Going anywhere into high-end areas with some build (55 is just one of many solo builds) is much more difficult than going in with 8 people. Hence, the rewards are higher.

And besides, what about warriors farming FoW? They don't run 55. What about various geo tanks. What about 135 and 605 builds (once again, not monks). What about my ritualist farming the Tyrian and Elonian explorable areas. 4-man SF builds? 4-man trapping builds? 55 monk is already mostly dead or simply too inefficient.

This falls very much in line with the skill and competitive concept of GW. Go with full group and do it the easy way, or go solo, and push the boundaries of skills and builds.

I personally don't see why people even care how others spend there time. I see this thread as a "I Can't get a group......So I think I will try and ruin all the people who solos fun" You know what they say "To each their own" so why ruin something that gives a lot of people the most satisfication while playing guildwars. LET PEOPLE PLAY HOW THEY WANT TO PLAY. or mabey you want guildwars to turn communist instead of capitalist

Perhaps before going into detail about how to "lower" ecto/shard prices, the OP should present a reasonable agrument of why they are too high. And since the OP states that ecto/shard prices are "higher than they should be", they could tell Anet what the price should actually be.

The OP further states, "And also, it would incentivate players to play with other people, as it should be." Perhaps the OP could elaborate on this as well. Obviously, two-man or five-man teams are playing with "other people". Without more elboration, one could surmise that the OP is simply complaining that they can't find a full party to join in UW/FoW.

By the way, an "intelligent" reader would want the issue(s) better defined "prior" to having solutions offered.

Actually I find the price of shards VERY low - but that's maybe just me.

To try to be constructive, I see one thing in this thread that shouldn't be ignored: the non-existence of 8 men groups in UW. You won't find a PuG for that, but maybe 1st-timers. Of course there are still guildies and friends, but still. Heroes help a lot but would it be possible to do more? I don't /sign the idea of the OP but what else could we find to solve this problem? Letting players use henchies?

Hummm... thinking this way maybe at the elite areas only.
Fissure of Woe, Underworld (both), Sorrow's Furnace, The Deep, Urgoz's Warren, Domain of Anguish and the other that are about to come

Seeing as the 55 monk, 5-man FoW teams and 9-man Deep teams aren't exploiting any bugs, I don't see how this is needed. As things are now, player skill is rewarded. Increased chance of getting greens because of fewer players and such.

However, this is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Let's not make a flame fest out of this. Discuss

-Anarion

Ecto has been 7-8K on average for months, shards are pretty much the same. Other than gems, most materials haven't fluctuated much at all in the last six months. Explain how the market is overpriced.

What happens when 2-4 people form a full group using heroes, or even real people, and get their heroes killed, or have the extra members leave? Woohoo, +20% drops for the ones that remain. Cool!

Simply put, play the game YOU want, and leave others to play it their way.

Shards for 2,4k? Thats a high price? Hm. That's not the farmers fault.

I don't see how higher production though easier means raises prices......

Simple law of supply and demand, if more is being produced than sold, the price goes down. So all this, "We know that Solos and proficient farmers are making the price go up" Bull Crap is a lie.

The only problem with Solo monks and other reduced party farming teams is the lack of opportunity for certain classes. People like to pretend that certain classes are balanced just because they can produce reasonable results in certain situations, but in many situations they just suck, and this has been overlooked for quite some time. If certain classes only accel at a fraction of the functions other classes offer, they are not balanced.

Stop trying to nerf everything that works, and start rallying to fix everything that doesn't, crappy skills, ineffective classes, crappy costs and frequencies. There is rarely a need for a nerf, there is an imbalanced, but it should be remedied on the weak end not the strong end. Thats like saying "lets weaken these links in the chain so the whole chain will be equal....", There is no point in sabatoging what already works, improving what doesn't work is where the attention needs to be.

With the addition of Paragon teams are making a strong comeback, the multiplied power of a large group by 1 or 2 paragons is exponetial, now teams can plow through much more difficult odds. Even with this, if a party can stand to use a few less players, and PLAY HARDER, than they deserve the increased fortune they WORK FOR because of it.

I don't 55 or really farm much at all. I only farm when I need some quick cash for armor or something along those lines. Even so, I think this is a pretty bad idea.

Guild Wars is supposed to be based off of skill. Granted, 55ing and some other farming builds don't use this skill, but you can't deny that there are players who solo who only use skill (example? How about Witte Was or Racthoh). I think punishing 55ers and those skilled farmers alike is a bad idea.

Besides, the argument with inflation is valid. The more these 55ers bring in ecto, the lower the price is. The only thing they're raising the price of is rare items which have become a lot easier to craft with the advent of inscriptions.

I have basically no clue what the motivation of Anet is to "nerf" farming. I know that farming is good for us consumers as things get more abundant and cheaper. Time will be spent more effectively if u don't have to coordinate the setup/assaults of a team.

I farmed with an earth ele for money as a main reason. The gold items u got were nice but not essential. Also im not on armor freak, I prefer to have all stuff unlocked and be able to go anywhere with any character to help out if needed. Usually I revert to pvp after finishing all that.

Recently I tried to farm some trolls, but they have weird behavior which is not in line with the game mechanics. They get a few yards away and start regenerating (without the use of a skill), while for any other monster or player that is impossible. Some nerfs to go against bots are in my opinion ok, but should be approached in a different way, while nerfing farming is not not understood by me.

I'd guess that health regen you're describing is the same as if you haven't been in combat for a while (see here for more info)

yeah its only way to have fun, its nothig wrong when some ppl going to "farm" ectos u can go too. why complicate this? Ecto is on 8-9k and this is a good price for this rare material.

peace.

How does more ppl soloing and low-member partying increase the cost of materials? Surely supply goes up because there are more people interested in farming solo rather than with an 8 man group full of noobs (another point). 2-Man farming saves time, time spent getting materials, and you work out very quickly if you're teammate is good or not. The more skilled PuG's will be soloing because they'll learn much faster.

If you were to "nerf" this.. then just make min party size and don't touch the skills. That being said, I feel that nerfing this will cause the price to go up, not down.

I use to be anti-runner, must play through the entire game "proper", anti~etc, but the longer I played the longer I can see how beautiful guildwars was made (by design) to allow all different types of styles of play by the players.

Play the way you want to. If the object is to lower the price, I would petition on setting a max "cap" on value for ecto instead. When something gets nerfed, within a week there will be new builds other jobs something will replace them.

/Not Signed

The proliferation of specialist builds makes the price go up, not because of supply and demand, but because the specialists have a monopoly. If you're not the right profession, you can't say "I'm not paying that, I'll go and farm it myself, and even if you are, you may not have the right skills or equipmant.That is why specialist farming drives up prices, because it creates a monopoly.

I skipped reading all but the first few posts as this is a terrible idea. It would drive prices through the roof in addition to forcing people to waste more time waiting for a group. @ OP- life is not fair, just because you can't solo some of these places doesn't mean others shouldn't. If you would like to try and make life fair, go join the democratic party, do not post on gwguru.

I would argue against further nerfing the 55ers because if you do, they'll point out the solo farming thread and demand that every idea in there or linked to be nerfed as well.

Soloing is good because not everyone wants to deal with henchies/heroes/other players all the time. Likewise some people might want to farm an item or a skill point and that takes a ton longer in groups.

As for the other groups, if they were smart enough to figure out a build or use one already figured out, why not allow it most of the time? Anet isn't completely anti-farming.

I think they should do something about farming, and work on a way to keep the prices for things at a price that would always make the 1337-ness of them the same. I don't think what we need is a decrease in price, but an increase in price while making the means reasonable. Yes, I definately agree in getting rid of solo farming, but not for the supremacy of team farming. There should be something initiated that makes things hard yet not impossible to attain.

Things that have gone down in price alot-

1.Celestial Sigils- Celestial Sigils have gone down tremendously in price and are continuing to go down. Something to get around this is to remove Celestial Sigils from HoH, and instead put something that is exclusive to HoH, and maybe even some gold (money) drops there. Afterwards ANet could make a fixed, somewhat reasonable price for the Sigils (from 7k - 20k maybe?).

2. Globs of Ectoplasm and Obsidian Shards- I think the price has gone down too far, making Fissure of Woe armor a little too attainable. I agree that it needed to be dropped, but not by this much.


Because the FoW Armor and such would be harder to get, new prestige items could be added, but not as 1337 as the current FoW armor. This works for HoH too, but having a Guild Hall is very important for a guild. This new system should be primarily directed at FoW and UW.

*edit*
ArenaNet has stated that they want their games to be based on Player Skill, not hours played and repetitive cheap build copies used. Because this is PvE, enemies are alot easier to get around- The farming system has to be reworked.

You sound just like the OP.

Basically: Easy to get = Low Demand = Low price. Imaging there being only 1 of something in the world. Everyone who wants it is going to have to bid higher and higher to get it due to all the other people who want it. Increasing availability will only lower the price as more people decide to get it elsewhere for a lower price.

I thought you wanted prices to go up? I'm confused.
Tbh, I think going to HA and buying a sigil from the trader is quite reasonable. All it requires is a few consecutive wins in the Random Arenas to get there.

So you basically want to be able to get more money for farming FoW/UW?
It's just supply and demand. More people selling ectos/shards = lower price.

Just my two cents. Again.

55ing is simply a explotation of the drop rate calulators. Nothing more nothing less.

Sence the consensis is that more people=more chance for screw ups the calculation should favor more people then less people.

Make the drop rate for a 55er be the same as the drop rate for a single person in a group. If done correctly ecto/shard price would flux for a little while but when people settle into it and accept it and the price should go back to normal. Price might even go DOWN as more people would be inclined to join groups.

I'm not really bothered about this. The people that still solo or 2 man The Underworld or FoW deserve the ecto they get in my opinion for having patience enough to do it, as it's become alot more annoying since the scatter when mobs are larger than 3 update.

"Limiting drops for teams who have less players then it should be" isn't technically right in my opinion, teams can be any size, if there SHOULDN'T be only 1 or 2 people in a party I think anet would have put in something on Grenth/Balthazar by now that says 'There are not enough people in your party to enter this area' or something, like locked doors when before you finish quests and stuff - but that still wouldn't stop people being able to use two man teams, as two people can still make a team of 8 to go into Underworld etc using 3 heros each... just flag them off screen so you still get all the drops assigned to you again, so this wouldn't achieve what you were trying to either I don't think.

As I say I don't really have a problem with it, you don't need much gold to be able to craft perfect weapons and armor. People only pay for skins that they would prefer, and if they want something that's rare, they do their farming, trading or whatever it is so they can get it. Alot of people enjoy farming as it is an effective way to make gold to get yourself something nice with a little effort, or even to just do little things for themselves like trying to collect 250 of each material and stuff as their in game hobby etc.

As I figure your thread seems to be about the amount gold and rare materials that the small party teams are getting by doing these runs, I have this kind of irrational but true fact about collecting items and money in game: I can't remember any "nerf power trading/cap the number of traded items you can make profit on per day" threads going around. Which is a bit ironic really, as trading makes people that know the value of items alot more money/ectos alot faster than farming ever would over the same period of time and they don't even need to leave an outpost to do it

Possibly. But then so is all solo farming.

I always thought that less people=more chance for screw-ups. Solo builds usually revolve around a few key skills - in a 55 build, getting PS interrupted or disabled once usually means death. Not so in a team of 8 players.

I don't really follow what you're saying. One person is doing the work of 8, so they should get less reward? You seem to be convinced that ecto and shard prices are too low as it is, yet seem to think that your idea is good as it results in prices dropping even further?

Imo if this happened, more people would join groups as they are invariably faster than solo or smaller teams. However, this would encourage more eliteism as groups attempt not to get first-timers or noobs.

the work of 8? not at all. 55ing is just controling the flow of damage to a consistant but managable ammount then using skills to turn that damage back into itself. not the work of 8 just the outcome 8 people would have but at a much slower rate.

Eliteism? this isnt HA, no ranks for time spent in UW of FoW. Sure your going to take 1 person over another if you KNOW he/she is better.

Basicly id like it if the equasion was more balanced. 1 person 55's and gets 3 shards. Same ammount of time 1 person in a group gets at best 1. the question is, is this fair?

That's what I meant. One person killing the same number and type of enemies = doing the work for them. The attraction of a full group is that it is safer and quicker, but you're less likely to get as many "good" drops.

However, this about all farming in a group less than party size, not just 55 monks.

Imo yes it is. In the case of a 55 monk, if you get hit by a shatter enchantments or a knockdown while PS runs out, you are toast. Like I said earlier, the attraction of a full group is that your whole trip doesn't revolve around 1 or 2 skills.

Tbh I haven't even 55d in FoW. I've run Remmeh's R/Me forest build a few times, and quite often I get around the same number of shards per trip as I do from a full team of 8 which takes around the same time.

Think I'd better stop posting before this gets locked for getting off-topic

Too bad people cookie cut so much, otherwise I would say don't punish people's ingenuity. Unfortunately that's really not the case, although someone thought it up. Honestly I'm happy how it is. Keep it the same and don't nerf a thing.

it wouldnt be a nerf, it would be a balance. make it prophitable for everyone not just a select few

The big critical flaw in the OP's arguement is that it is assumed that groups MUST have the max number of people in it. Most areas including late missions really only need five or six people to succeed. The max of eight simply allows for flexibility [i.e making up for lack of player skill with more people].

The OP would of been good if it had a point. Nice try. Maybe the rant you write will actually have something worth reading.

Attempts have been made before to stop solo farming in the UW and the only one that I felt was a very smart move on Anet was the addition of DyingNightmares.

Something like increasing the variaty of mobs for the first part would push out solo farming.

However other than solo farmers ive no problem with a small team that works very well together to achieve higher drop rates. This is team work and should be rewarded.

I do not support nerfing of skills, but these are high end locations that should require some skill, if that means that the party of 3-5 can do it with the perfect build and some well timed skills thats acceptable. Having a single 55monk walk in and kill everything just doesn't sit well with me, but then I'm a Warrior and maybe theres a bit of jealousy in my words.......

Personally I believe anet condones farming, it's been around this long. I just think they don't want it to be easy, it should be a challenging thing. Dying Nightmares made it tougher, but not impossible.

I partly agree with the OP intentions and think that rather than punishing smaller groups with reduced drop rate, a bonus drop rate should be given to larger teams. This would allow solo/small teams to still continue with their better drop rate but also give more incentive for large groups. As has been said previously, only some professions are viable for reduced farm teams due to the way that profession operates. As it currently stands its quite difficult to get an underworld group unless you are a particular profession and want to do two/three man due to the limits of professions and also what have become standard farming teams that everyone expects. It seems a great shame to me that the Underworld dungeon has become so limited and difficult for a balanced full group to enter due to the greater rewards of small team farming.
Likewise for other areas such as Sorrows Furnace where people only run reduced teams for green farms with little interest in any quest other than Oro or FA.

I personally like the 1 time concept for chests and stuff. Too bad it can't happen with drops. 1 time per character for every green in the game... Green farming suddenly GONE over night and the market is not overrun with them either so they do not skyrocket. Its called an artificial ceiling, and will never happen so don't freak yet!! Its just a dream of people that believe every player should have a fair shake at getting any green they want at least once without being extorted to either Get one or buy one. but thats besides the point.

However in the end that does not solve for ecto... and there really is not a solution... except I will tell you this. An average 2 man UW team gets like 8 ecto MAX per run and it lasts about 20 mins... Now every time I have went or heard of groups going with a full team and went the whole way down to like the spawning pools or something like that, Instead of just the everyday farmed Smites... Our party saw more ecto drop per player then any 2 man team could dream. BUT!!! the down side is the time involved in getting down there... an hour or two at least... SO in the end I think it all averages out... If you can get a full party for an UW sweep, or a 2 man farm with 3-4 runs in the same time. You should end up with about the same amount of ecto in the same amount of time...

Now with all that said its worth noting that greens nor shards nor ecto nor White or black dyes, or anything else that is over priced is REQUIRED to enjoy this game to its fullest. Indeed max armor and Max weapons are available to all players for FREE from collectors if they so choose. They may not be the skin they want but they are there and just as good as the uber expensive weapons and armor in combat. So in all reality I don't see the big deal over ecto prices... I cash them in when I get a full stack to NPCs driving the price down every time. The more people do that the more the prices drop for the masses that want them. I just don't have a use for something that is that unnecessary in the game. I'll go with a party when asked by my alliance to go , but I either end up giving them anything I get ecto wise or sell it off if I don't know them that well. It would be different if Fissure armor was say a +5 to +10 armor class or something, but its not. So there is just no need for it, in my personal achievement goals. If you all want it, more power to you, glad you have the time and resources to waste it on.

Well its a good try to stabilize prices... but look at ecto prices now! they are around 9-10k when duo UW was still alive and healthy they were usually at about 6-7k! Now people dont have a viable way of making fast money... Ectos sell fast... greens dont....