The Need for a War
Xiaxhou of Trinity
In the higher levels of PvE, warriors do paper damage to monsters and creatures; with the new ai, there isn't any "tanking" to be done by a war, aggro is usually spread out now. So what can a warrior do now? A dervish has self heals and a larger energy pool to cast heals and such, and the sin, although wearing nothing but paper for armor, can still perform effectively by loading conditions on a target and running away so that monks can heal him. PvP of course is a different story. But unless you're farming, what can a warrior do?
kratic
warriors can still hold agro but not nearly as well as they used to. I say they add a Taunt or something to gain agro off the other players let it be one target or an aoe taunt. Just something to make a tank a usefull tank.
The Ernada
Dude. I thought this was about wars. Not warriors. Abbreviations suck.
Redfeather1975
Coming from Everquest 2, I was completely shocked that Warriors had no taunt! I really was so used to having some kind of aggro control skill in other MMORPGs, I was boggled as to how Anet expected Warriors to tank throughout Guild Wars evolution.
I don't play a warrior, but I can see that an aggro control skill of some type, in the tactics line, would be very proper for the role a warrior usually plays.
Give em a taunt.
I don't play a warrior, but I can see that an aggro control skill of some type, in the tactics line, would be very proper for the role a warrior usually plays.
Give em a taunt.
Gigashadow
Taunt is really not a very fun game mechanic, I don't miss it.
Mr_T_bot
Warriors could use an aggro shout. It is nearly possible to get aggro properly. I've tried it, it's absurd. Maybe just expanding the range of "None Shall Pass!" would suffice because I think aggro target should cycle while they are knocked down.
lyra_song
aggro control in this game involves cooperation of the WHOLE party.
Not just the tank, but the healers and damage dealers need to know where to go so that the tank gets the actual aggro and absorb all the damage.
Not just the tank, but the healers and damage dealers need to know where to go so that the tank gets the actual aggro and absorb all the damage.
Mylon
Taunt is a stupid game mechanic which serves the sole purpose of making the enemies stupid as well. It's a skill designed entirely to make an enemy attack the _worst_ possible target. That it has become a common staple in many MMOs only goes to show how they cater to the lowest common denominator.
Carth`
Warriors do paper damage? Hmm.
I don't know what to say. I consider Devona to be the best henchman because she seems to do the highest damage out of any of them, and she also survives the best, using only Healing Signet and her warrior armour.
I'm glad Anet put an end to this tanking nonsense, now warriors can go out there and slay some dragons, rather than stand there letting a dragon try to kill them while an elementalist does average damage using over 100 energy and filling half his bar with exhaustion.
I don't know what to say. I consider Devona to be the best henchman because she seems to do the highest damage out of any of them, and she also survives the best, using only Healing Signet and her warrior armour.
I'm glad Anet put an end to this tanking nonsense, now warriors can go out there and slay some dragons, rather than stand there letting a dragon try to kill them while an elementalist does average damage using over 100 energy and filling half his bar with exhaustion.
Agyar
GW's system of aggro/hate is a bit strange after coming from WoW (which, I believe, has a system similar to that of EQ).
People seem to survive though, most of the time anyway.
People seem to survive though, most of the time anyway.
Angel Netherborn
Rant: the topic title is really very badly named...
Anyway, as for warriors having a difficult time tanking, well that's a good thing isn't it? I think I prefer having to keep an eye out for attackers and running or positioning more effectively. As opposed to standing there and cast spells while watching the mob try to take down the tank.
Anyway, as for warriors having a difficult time tanking, well that's a good thing isn't it? I think I prefer having to keep an eye out for attackers and running or positioning more effectively. As opposed to standing there and cast spells while watching the mob try to take down the tank.
bluechestdude
yeh i played wow for a few weeks and the aggro system was way different to gw..i mean "threat" levels..but agreed gw should at least make an agro for a warrior or derv prof...some missions are just impossible because all the mobs attack ur monks and kill them and they drop the wars soon after..
Carth`
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Originally Posted by bluechestdude
some missions are just impossible because all the mobs attack ur monks and kill them and they drop the wars soon after..
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Thallandor
I agree, Warriors should have some sort of shout that causes aggro targeting eamples:
"Face me Corwards!": 5 adrenaline, for 10 seconds all enemies within ear shot attacks the target and gain 25%.....5% IAS. (Strength)
"I am your opponent!" 5 energy, for 20 seconds target enemy within earshot attacks the target and become Dazed for 1...5 seconds. (Tactics)
Edit: the only problem is that these aggro fixing skills would be that they are hard to adjust for PvP since it would likely be buggy or have limited use in PvP at all, which i suppose is one of the reason it has not been implemented thus far.
"Face me Corwards!": 5 adrenaline, for 10 seconds all enemies within ear shot attacks the target and gain 25%.....5% IAS. (Strength)
"I am your opponent!" 5 energy, for 20 seconds target enemy within earshot attacks the target and become Dazed for 1...5 seconds. (Tactics)
Edit: the only problem is that these aggro fixing skills would be that they are hard to adjust for PvP since it would likely be buggy or have limited use in PvP at all, which i suppose is one of the reason it has not been implemented thus far.
Avarre
Stop running pure tank warriors, put attack skills on the bar along with some defensive shouts, and act as a warrior should - damage soak by running in first, defence buff from shouts, and high damage output to critical targets.
A warrior in PvE should be able to tank, but doesn't necessarily need to be a tank.
A warrior in PvE should be able to tank, but doesn't necessarily need to be a tank.
lg5000
To the subject mentioned:
No, I don't think there is a need for War. I'm quite happy that we're not threatened by war in this country.. and oh... that's not what we were talking about... my mistake.
No, I don't think there is a need for War. I'm quite happy that we're not threatened by war in this country.. and oh... that's not what we were talking about... my mistake.
Lyphen
I've been running through Tyria with my brother, a warrior, and I haven't found many problems. He'll normaly run in first and positions the enemies around himself while he Triple Chop/Cyclone Axes them. A few times, a stray will make it back to us, but it isn't often.
Tanking in this game is mostly body-blocking, so I don't see how else to fix it other than learning to anticipate enemy movement.
Tanking in this game is mostly body-blocking, so I don't see how else to fix it other than learning to anticipate enemy movement.
Antheus
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Originally Posted by Lyphen
I've been running through Tyria with my brother, a warrior, and I haven't found many problems. He'll normaly run in first and positions the enemies around himself while he Triple Chop/Cyclone Axes them. A few times, a stray will make it back to us, but it isn't often.
Tanking in this game is mostly body-blocking, so I don't see how else to fix it other than learning to anticipate enemy movement. |
This is why good warriors are hard to find. You don't just stand there and wait for mobs to come after you.
Engage them, predict their movement, position yourself, attack them, use shouts, KDs, even wards. Use terrain to your advantage.
But no matter what tank does, if you have moronic team, where casters are pulling, no ammount of tanking will help.
That said, there is need for good tanks in higher-end areas. There's lots of need. BUt unfortunately, the rest of the game is so easy there's no need for warriors to learn any of that.
And so, you get upset tanks that think endure pain is all they need to tank in DoA.
Russell.Crowe
ahahhaha, sorry but this topic is ridiculous, and to add on to what Avarre said:
any GOOD warrior can hold aggro just as effective as always (stay out of the damn warriors aggro circle until he has the aggro held, simple tactic and has always worked)... and as for the "paper" damage, have you ever played a decent warrior bar? Warriors do large single target damage which is extremely helpful when killing a group of enemies since a preferred target (i.e. a monk) will drop extremely quick with the warrior banging on it and the nukers bombing it. Plus, warriors have defensive shouts that aid the party tremendously (do you have any idea what a decent "Watch Yourself" does to a 60 armor character? How about what shields up does against areas with loads of rangers/assassins?). The fact is some sort of warrior is needed for most decent groups.
any GOOD warrior can hold aggro just as effective as always (stay out of the damn warriors aggro circle until he has the aggro held, simple tactic and has always worked)... and as for the "paper" damage, have you ever played a decent warrior bar? Warriors do large single target damage which is extremely helpful when killing a group of enemies since a preferred target (i.e. a monk) will drop extremely quick with the warrior banging on it and the nukers bombing it. Plus, warriors have defensive shouts that aid the party tremendously (do you have any idea what a decent "Watch Yourself" does to a 60 armor character? How about what shields up does against areas with loads of rangers/assassins?). The fact is some sort of warrior is needed for most decent groups.
draxynnic
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Originally Posted by Thallandor
I agree, Warriors should have some sort of shout that causes aggro targeting eamples:
"Face me Corwards!": 5 adrenaline, for 10 seconds all enemies within ear shot attacks the target and gain 25%.....5% IAS. (Strength) "I am your opponent!" 5 energy, for 20 seconds target enemy within earshot attacks the target and become Dazed for 5...0 seconds. (Tactics) Edit: the only problem is that these aggro fixing skills would be that they are hard to adjust for PvP since it would likely be buggy or have limited use in PvP at all, which i suppose is one of the reason it has not been implemented thus far. |
Enticements work, however - for instance, you could have shouts that grant enemies penalties if they don't attack the shouter, and possibly benefits if they do (penalties and benefits that the AI might take into account when choosing targets) - which would be something that could conceivably work in PvP - most PvP players will probably know that giving in is to their detriment, and if balanced properly if could be enough of a lose-lose situation to present an interesting dilemma.
Ulivious The Reaper
warriors are agro and damage, they attack whats in front of them, and to the sides, and saying warriors do paper damage? you're crazy... 4 attacks 1 tank skill 1 healing 1 rez 1 optional is what i bring everytime... hell one of my builds has 5 attacks 1 stance 1 healing and one rez and i do just fine holding/keeping agro
when it comes down to it, it's up to the skill of the individual playing the warrior, not the skills or agro problems"
when it comes down to it, it's up to the skill of the individual playing the warrior, not the skills or agro problems"
Chicken Ftw
Meh, haven't even needed to use defensive shouts. Good monks with decent builds as backup ftw. Usually run a bar with six attack skills, res, and an IAS stance, with 16 weapon mastery. Often drop res for seventh attack skill/utility skill. Damage does drop a little in RoT and other endgame areas, but eh. Still deal larger DPS to a single target than other members, while maintaining survivability. It's just much more fun (imo) to play a purely offensive warrior.
Phaern Majes
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Originally Posted by Xiaxhou of Trinity
the sin, although wearing nothing but paper for armor,?
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arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Phaern Majes
The only reason wars are better is they have defensive stances and damage reduction runes/insignias for tanking, rangers are "ranged" so don't have to absorb the damage output of a melee char, and dervs as you said have decent self heals.
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Originally Posted by Lyphen
I've been running through Tyria with my brother, a warrior, and I haven't found many problems. He'll normaly run in first and positions the enemies around himself while he Triple Chop/Cyclone Axes them. A few times, a stray will make it back to us, but it isn't often.
Tanking in this game is mostly body-blocking, so I don't see how else to fix it other than learning to anticipate enemy movement. |
When I'm a caster or ranged, I run to the other side of the tank when I start to aggro. This usually shakes them onto the tank.
When I first started playing GW, I would've agreed with you on this. Now that I understand that there are ways to control the aggro through tactics (and not the attribute), well I'd much rather do it that way than waste a couple of skill slots that do the same.
Thallandor
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Originally Posted by draxynnic
Nah. The whole point is that there aren't supposed to be skills that are only usable for PvE (well, maybe Sunspear Rebirth Signet and the Lightbringer skills, but they're deliberately unbalanced). Now, how much fun would it be in PvP to be forced to attack a given target because they have a Taunt skill?
Enticements work, however - for instance, you could have shouts that grant enemies penalties if they don't attack the shouter, and possibly benefits if they do (penalties and benefits that the AI might take into account when choosing targets) - which would be something that could conceivably work in PvP - most PvP players will probably know that giving in is to their detriment, and if balanced properly if could be enough of a lose-lose situation to present an interesting dilemma. |
However Enticements are indeed an interesting proposition that may work both in PvE and PvP that places a dilemma for the opposing team if they want to attack the shouter and remove the detrimental conditions of the shout, or ignore the shouter and continue with the detrimental conditions which would make for an interesting change in the metagame of both PvE and PvP but could pose some problems for balancing due to its overpowering effects, and hence its range of effect should be limited to perhaps earshot.
In short: shouts/skills that causes detrimental effects to the opposition if ignored which would otherwise be removed by attacking/killing the shouter.
Current similar in concept examples:
Backfire (spellcasting punishment), Empthay (attacking punishment), Spiteful Spirit (Attacking punishment)
hence enticement concepts would ideally work in the same format where it punishes those affected by the shout/skill in one way or another but those punishments can be easily removed if those affected will attack/kill the source of the shout/skill user. Hence it works as a form of encouragement to attack a specific target instead of other in the party ie aggro control in both PvE and PvP as well.
Feurin Longcastle
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Originally Posted by Avarre
Stop running pure tank warriors, put attack skills on the bar along with some defensive shouts, and act as a warrior should - damage soak by running in first, defence buff from shouts, and high damage output to critical targets.
A warrior in PvE should be able to tank, but doesn't necessarily need to be a tank. |
Ulivious The Reaper
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Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle
It was precisely that kind of thinking that gave birth to Leeroy Jenkins.
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arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle
It was precisely that kind of thinking that gave birth to Leeroy Jenkins.
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If you play your cards right, then running straight into the middle of a group, making sure to aggro the entire group (no more and no less), plays into the definition of tank. The best defense is a great offence.
Sekkira
I still find it amazing that over 1.5 years into the game and people think Warriors as tanks still work.
Hell Marauder
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
I still find it amazing that over 1.5 years into the game and people think Warriors as tanks still work.
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Quid Pro Quo
Would be kind of neat if everytime they used adreneline they could increase the chance that enemies would focus on them.
This wouldn't be a full taunt but it would help them pull as much agro as they used to be able to.
This wouldn't be a full taunt but it would help them pull as much agro as they used to be able to.
Hand of Ruin
Warriors have very good DPS, and with cheap conditions like deep-wound and bleeding, they can lower a target's health significantly pretty quickly.
Warriors can't hold aggro permanently, but they can run ahead first, and absorb the brunt of the enemies force, and give the rest of the team time to cast their spells, which is usually what will then draw aggro away from them.
Warriors can't hold aggro permanently, but they can run ahead first, and absorb the brunt of the enemies force, and give the rest of the team time to cast their spells, which is usually what will then draw aggro away from them.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle
It was precisely that kind of thinking that gave birth to Leeroy Jenkins.
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Whether running a defensive tank or an offensive warrior, the W in PvE still tends to have to best armor and is thus best suited to running in first. By presenting him as the only target, the first wave of offensive spells will be expended on the target with the heaviest armor, which can also be preprotted.
While the warrior moves directly for the primary target, the casters on your team should be kiting the melee spillover that went for your casters from the mob. The first solid wave of damage should be tanked by the warrior, and should not be able to destabilize your team as your offence should completely neutralize their's before this point. Meanwhile, your defences only have to put up with buffering the first damage wave to the warrior and subsequent damage from the mobs that came past your warrior.
Nexus Icon
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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre
This is pretty much how I play when I go good ol Warrior. I carry Flail and Charging Strike, along with some attack skills and rez. Basically, I run ahead of my group with Charging Strike, heading straight for the monk (or Ele, depending on the situation), and within a few hits I have enough adrenaline to engage Flail and rip through the rest of the group. This initial rush into battle causes most, if not all of the group to aggro me.
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Your first hit after the charge should generate enough adrenaline to activate Flail immediately
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by Nexus Icon
Tip: try Enraging Charge instead.
Your first hit after the charge should generate enough adrenaline to activate Flail immediately |
I agree with Avarre 100%.
I think having a caster as a first character gives one a great insight in how to deal with aggro. Oh yeah, and I don't use a bow for pulling, aggro bubble-touch FTW.
Dark Divinor
My W was my first character, and it's my favourite. There's a lot more to being a W than going around smacking stuff until it breaks. Agrroing is the most common, being able to pull a group to you get them to surround you, and maintaining that is quite hard. If you want to do it properly.
Oh Arcane, trying to use a Long/Stormbow for pulling - it helps!
Oh Arcane, trying to use a Long/Stormbow for pulling - it helps!
seut
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Originally Posted by draxynnic
Nah. The whole point is that there aren't supposed to be skills that are only usable for PvE (well, maybe Sunspear Rebirth Signet and the Lightbringer skills, but they're deliberately unbalanced).
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http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Otyugh%27s_Cry
arcanemacabre
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Originally Posted by seut
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EDIT: Yeah, your pet and all other allied pets in the area.
seut
oh...
*points to the sky* look a flying Gwen!
*runs away and hides in shame*
back on topic:
Something taunt-like could be implemented similar to Amity.
hex/shout: for x seconds or for y attacks nearby foes can attack only you.
*points to the sky* look a flying Gwen!
*runs away and hides in shame*
back on topic:
Something taunt-like could be implemented similar to Amity.
hex/shout: for x seconds or for y attacks nearby foes can attack only you.
RTSFirebat
Warrior - Tactics Skill
Name: Bring it On!
Desciption: Skill. Target foe and foes adjacent to your target become aggrod to you for the next for 10...30 seconds. You lose all Adrenaline but you gain x2 Adrenaline for the next 1...8 seconds.
How about something like that?
Name: Bring it On!
Desciption: Skill. Target foe and foes adjacent to your target become aggrod to you for the next for 10...30 seconds. You lose all Adrenaline but you gain x2 Adrenaline for the next 1...8 seconds.
How about something like that?