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Originally Posted by oinkers
You have GOT to be kidding. Spear is worse then Rit channeling for DPS you know? I kinda switched off your post after reading that part - even mesmers can outdamage Paragons in most PvE situations - try it and see.
um... yeah I know that. And conceeded to this fact and mention several times in my post that the spear skills and base damage need to be changed in order to balance with other classes. I also mentioned several times that the command and motivation builds are my preference. The only reason I even included it (notice I didn't post a specific build) is that other people seem to be using it a lot with relative success (per their reports).
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Shouts/Chants don't stack - there's no point having 2 ToF paragons in a group when you can keep up ToF with near-100% uptime on 1 paragon alone. Same applies to most other shouts. If you have 1 Motivation healer, make the other Para go Command instead. Problem is, most people are WY/GFTE/ToF spammers.
okay... apparently you don't understand what I am saying and clearly have not played a paragon for more than 5 minutes. Of course, shouts and chants don't overlap. Of course it doesn't make sense to have ToF on more than one in your party. Where it is helpful is with GFTE, where the shout ends as soon as someone attacks or Anthem of Evny which ends as soon as someone uses an attack skill. It takes a couple of seconds for a paragon to get it charged back up. Will there be some mistaken overlaps on chants? Yes. but you also have a higher rate of attacks that are affected by two GFTE/Envy Spammers than one.
Secondly, I'll adress this issue now because it bears on like the next three comments you made. If you actually read my movtivation healer build, you would realize the most effective skill that it uses is Aria of Restoration which heals every time a chant or shout ends on a character. It lasts ten seconds but takes 20 to recharge. So, if you have two, then you could have a seemless transition between one aria to the next.
This bears on your next comment about finales:
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And the main problem with overlapping shouts/chants is that they absolutely RUIN the echos from triggering. I dont need perma Watch-Yourself when it's being used to echo all the Finales I've casted.
You are assuming that all chants remain stagnant on your characters. If you combine a motivation healer (or two) as mentioned above with a GFTE/ENVY spammer, the entire party is being healed every time they use an attack after GFTE, and every time they use an attack skill after Envy. If you have even one motivation healer and two GFTE/Envy spammers, the ENTIRE PARTY is being healed virtually ever other attack it makes while Aria of Restoration is up. I can't even match that with two of my LoD/Holy Haste monks. So how did they fail to do it better again?!?!?!?
I do see your point about the overlapping shouts and chant making the echos not trigger, but thats whay you kinda have to think about which shouts and chants you bring and how they work and how many people are bring it, if you know what I mean.
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You said it yourself when it's not as good as a warrior. And a warrior isn't exactly high damage dealing really. SF nukers own for floor-wide damage. Air eles are kings are spiking. Paragons dont have AoE or multi-target damage spells like other classes. They dont do party-wide damage, they can't spike as well as other classes either. No wins here.
You misunderstood what I wrote. Yes a warrior or paragon cannot match from a single attack the AOE damage caused by say Meteor shower or your Rit you keep bragging about. But that is not what I was saying.
When a GFTE spammer is in your party. He is giving YOUR party critical strikes every three attacks or so. That's double damage, man. Stack that up a second, do the math. The paragons add massive damage for your party. That's what I mean. More than an orders necro, more than curses or hexes can do, more than... anything.
The only limitation is that it doesn't effect casters spells as far as I know. That's also why I said. Try this with a BP group as it is completely reliant on physical damage/attacks.
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Beg to differ - my perma-prot Rit makes a monk's life so easy, much more effective than a Motivation Para. And a Rit can spike-heal with Feast of Souls - Paragons have NO spike heal at all.
Read above about how it works, first. Then, actually read my motivation healer build. It has a spike heal as it uses a Mo secondary. I have LoD in there but if you want to change it out for heal other or something, go ahead...
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And other core classes do what the Paragons do - only much better. Monks arguably heal better and prot better. Eles outdamage Paragons. Dervishes out-tank Paragons. Necros hex like there's no tomorrow, which completely shuts down Paragons. And for being an all-rounder, I believe the Rit is better - with Attuned Was Songkai you can spam 2-energy heals for ~100hp like a chaingun, or perma-prot with a huge radius not limited by earshot like Paragons, or .... (too lazy to list them all)
If you are going to keep going back to that rit build, I am going to start to laugh... very hard. Necros out hex paragons? Paragons don't hex, ass. Look at the actual effects of the hexes. What does more damage? Order of Pain or GFTE spamming... I'll give you a hint... read above... Dervishes out tank Paragons until they nerf your 130 build. Also, you are neglecting my qualifaction to my statement. As mentioned MANY times by MANY people, paragons do rely on their party for effectiveness. This include trying to compliment the other builds in the group. A GFTE Para does very little in a group full of SF eles. But put it in a BP group and it does more than replacing him with and SF in that same BP group. That's why I said: "when played well and given the right set up."
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I do agree with you that people tend to forget about the innate high armour a Paragon has - but it's natural that a support role which the Paragon is specc'd for means that you're too busy supporting/buffing the party (i.e. casting shouts/echos on various members) to be truly tanking. Unlike a dervish or a warrior meatbag that really only has one goal in his mind.
Warriors dont need to run to the front, tank, and then run back a bit to spot heal a monk at the back - they just tank all the time in PvE. Paragons if they have it lucky can stay in the middle and their shouts will reach both the frontline and the back support. That's NOT a great position to be using the high armour - it's a wasted feature of the class really.
How hard is it to run in and aggro everything before the rest of you're group. Then you just stand there and do your casts as you normally would... I do this all the time in the torment when working with only heroes and henchies. and I never have problems with my shouts reaching far enough.. EVER.
The shout radius for a paragon reaches a little beyond the aggro circle. If your party is that far away, then you're all f'ed up anyway and will probably die. The rest of them have to be close enough to be attacking the things you are tanking at least and if they are that close, the shouts reach. If its the monk in trouble in the back, they can heal themselves.
As was mentioned in a previous post, do your research about how the skills actually work and then actually read my post. Then try to come in with your smart ass comments like you know what you are talking about. | | |
