Allow 7 heroes instead of 3

(yes im aware that others suggested this before, but it wasnt enough i guess)

OK before flaming, lemme explain.

The reason why everyone says we can have max 3 heroes is social aspect; ie "one is forced then to team up with at least one real player" blablabla.

But, has anyone actually thought of this?

Let's put it this way. When i decide to do mission with PUGs, i do the mission with pugs. When i decide to do something alone, i do it alone. I dont put 3 heroes + 1 pug with his 3 heroes. I put 3 heroes and the rest henchies. The limit on heroes is NOT making me pug more. It's just more annoying when i need to do certain things like skill capping myself, alone.


The second reason why there is a limit of 3 heroes might be... well, overpowerdness. Let's face it, a homemade 7 heroes beat 99% of PUGs out there. True, but 3 heroes + 4 henchies still beat 98% of PUGs out there. So, even this reason is... false, the way i see it. If PUGs seem too.... unprofessional to do some mission, i can do it with heroes + henchies. But it would have been much easier and funnier for me to do with with 7 heroes.


Pro-7heroes:
1) Fun. Creativity. I can actually have my own team builds in PvE. Awesome. Sure, AI limits it somewhat, but it's better than using henchie bars which are as awful as monster skill bars. Note: this would not make me pug less, because i dont play online game to solo everything. It would simply make it easier when i do have to play solo because there aint enough people in the district or no one wants to do what i want to do
2) Power. Efficiency. I can clean the area faster with 7 heroes instead of those horrible henchies (still, note that henchies are more efficient than avg pug). This saves time. And time is money.
3) Option. Yes, people like to have option. It's good to have it, even if you dont use it. There's just some good feeling around that.

/signed

I've had just about enough of dealing with henchies. :/

Make all the henchies Heroes. Finally Cynn would not friggan cast firestorm.

Agreed, sure i can beat the game with a full party of hench's and hero's and i did, but i didnt have much fun at it, a full party is much for fun than a full group of hero's

/not signed

That would make PvE too easy, as if it wasn't easy enough.

/notsigned

Edit: Upon further contemplation, the balance issues have pretty much swayed me against this one. The runes and weapons are the main issue here. What might work better, then, is if you had an alterable, abbreviated skill bar for henchmen. Say, 4 or 6 slots that you could change out as with heroes, and no equipment options for them at all.

To the idea as presented, then:

/notsigned

/not signed .-.

oh jesus....this game is sooo easy already...

i did hells precipice with hero/hench and killed without much trouble

Yes we want to, thank you. When i encounter people like you, how can i be anything other than anti-social?


ps: If you were smarter than you are, you wouldn't even reply in this thread. If you want heroes out of the game completely, you can create a thread of your own. The point of this thread is that, since we already do have heroes, and they are part of the game, why not increase the limit to 7? If i want to play with henchies n heroes i'll play, if i want to play with henchies alone i'll play, as i played before. Hero limit does nothing but annoy.

pps: thanks again for proving my point, you attitude is the reason why my heroes > pugs

ppps: yes i like to play online game and socialize, it's just that im picky. So, when i have to choose between you and a hero, i'll take hero. But when there's some cool pug, i'll take pug and enjoy the company.

/signed even though is highly unlikely it will come true.

it would be too good to be true, but one can dream.

/not signed

no would ever use other ppl again. plus it would be too strong. there r a lot of ppl already mad at the fact that heros take up space in mission so this would just make it worse

/signed so that i dont need to deal whit all the bloody ...... ppl that can get this game for 10$ and destory my time!
Sure there are ppl "I" wand to play whit. tho let ME deside if i want to play whit Humes or whit AI or whas this a komunist game?

/signed

And now for the testimonial and reason why (skip if wish.):

o-o i like playing with people (I mainly got the game because my boyfriend got it for me and we play together ) and I've made some friends on the game but they're not always around. I had to solo most everything in nightfall and factions with my assassin (well just being a sin explains why. *huggles her poor unloved sin*) and though i did pretty well with just the 3 heroes and henches, once i got to the realm of torment it reeaaaallly would have been nice to be able to stick in my Jin in there so she could help with interrupting or bleeding or poisioning those stupid torments. The heroes I usually used were tahl, zhed, and olias. then henchwise some tank, more monks, and then cynn or something.

i did party whenever i could, though, for like missions or if some random person wanted help and i was bored and it is more fun with people (as long as you get the *right* people...).

However, having the extra 4 heroes would be uuuuber nice o_o just so i can have more control and have more options. I had to hench the Battle of Turai since no one else was doing it. Took foreeevveeerrr >_> I know it can be done and I know there are several ways but I'm too lazy to look up every possible tactic (there were actually NONE when I did it...NF was still newish when i got there). I also had to figure out the Bonus of Crossroads mission by myself back then because this was the time guildwiki was down and i hadn't known about Guild Wars Guru and people kept thinking the last two Opressors were the last two that actually finished the mission -_-;;

So yeah, as much fun as it can be to party with people, it can also be very annoying when you wind up with people who don't know and don't listen to other people (i kept telling them but nooooo...). Of course NOW there wouldn't be any problems since NF has been here for a longer time and guildwiki is up and stuff here.

You also don't find many people wanting to do the quests with people. There was never a big surge for it to begin with o_o The main places you find PUGs is in missions rather than random outposts. Yeah there are people who want to party with people, but that doesn't mean the vast majority though.

And this is in the view of someone who has to play by himself/herself when no one else around. The game was designed for both the solo and group player (s'why we had henches in the first place) so if we have the heroes already, why not go ahead and make it so we can HERO it all the way, rather than hero/hench.

It's not like you don't ever have the option to party with people. There are probably people who hero/hench the whole game only anyway.

Oh and about the level of difficulty of the campaigns, I will say I died less in NF (no stupid putrid explosions >_>) but I think the level of difficulty is more of a player perspective then it just is. If that makes sense. Some people find it easy, some people find it hard. It will definitely be harder for someone who just started Guild Wars on Nightfall. I think having 7 heroes is more for the veteran player who knows the ropes. Plus it's kinna fun being able to understand other classes without having to play it. I made an Ele because of my hero nukers xD

And there's my dollar's worth of stuff. I doubt this'll happen and I doubt that if it does people will party less. If they do, ANET will probably revert back to the 3 Hero system.

So nothing to lose IMO

Wow incredible, are people who reply with a "no" actually read what i type? Can you provide ARGUMENTS instead of oppinions?

Zinger - u answer no to everything so i never comment your posts, neither here nor on GWO.

Oppinions:
1) "But it would make this game too easy" <= helllooo? PvE is very easy as in, someone who has trouble with PvE in this game, with henchies, will also have trouble with heroes. Using "would be too easy" as an argument here is silly, as PvE in this game is on purpose easy so that everyone can do it. Compare it to some other games and you'll know what i mean.
2) People would be more antisocial. Oh geez, how bout read the post, i already answered that. You countered it with an oppinion. Last time i checked argument>oppinion. Ty. Have a nice day.

Dude, are you deaf? This isnt PUGs vs Heroes thread. It's for people who use henchies instead of full heroes. Hellooo. How difficult is to understand that person who wants to use henchies will use henchies and WONT use pugs. So, instead of getting annoyed with henchies just give heroes instead. NOTHING changes. Antisocial people remain antisocial, when they want to pug they still CANT pug.

wow no way? Then how come people STILL pug? I can do so many stuff in the game with 7 henchies. So what, you still see me pugging. And tons of other people. Gimme a break. You CANT force people to Pug if they dont want to. What you can is make their non-pug experience more enjoyable. When i want to play with pugs it's because i want company and NOT because pug can do better than my henchies. No they cant. 98% PUG groups do WORSE than henchie group. I still pug. Get it? No? Whatever.

See, no one really cares about that. If you ask people here whether they want to quest with you, how many will you find? And how many online when you are? They are too selfish for that, but they will deny you the chance to play with heroes.

Every now and then i go to do some quest. It's especially tedious when doing primary quests which you have to. Defenders of the Forrest? Sigh... sure i LFGed for hours, but you CANT find people. So i want 7 heroes. What's bad with that? Almost every mission in Nightfall i did with PUGs. I play with PUGs when i can find them. If i could have 7 heroes i'd still PUG, but often i cant find people so i have to take henchies. Sure, there are some exceptions when i do the mission with henchies only, such as old THK, because average pug just wasnt good enough for that mission.

/signed

Not everyone plays the game the same way.

I spend a lot of time running with heroes and henchies only and I would like the challenge of setting up my own hero team builds as I want.

To those who have posted how easy PvE is already, I would add that yes, I too have beat just about everything with henchies alone, but i would like the option to set up a team of heroes as I choose.

lol im fine with her using fire storm you just have to find a way to keep the guys there in the aoe by either combining it with a MM olias or you or MoW and its destructive force will handle the rest.

personally im tired of people bad mouthing Fire storm and most AoE skills. If you dont know how to use it or even to fix the cons of it then dont use it but dont flame people for using it.....not that im saying you are flaming it or anything just using a general term..meaning..something.


Henchies are find to me really depends if you can control them or not as anet gave us the flags on the compass thing. As much as i would like to sign this idea i can't becuase i feel it will be to over powering. As it is only about 1 out of 10 people will play with other real players for quests and missions. Guild Wars should be more interactive but now towns are dead..no one really talks..they get there load up a couple henchies and heros and leave.

/not signed

oh before you down stab or w/e my post..i understand what you are saying but i just wanted to voice my opinion..yes there we go

bad idea, plus they'd have to change the interface

I would find it very hard to control 7 heroes as well as actualy play my character. Because when I think about it, there goes 1/2 a screen dedicated to heroes skillbar/health/mp and after that you sometimes have to micromanage, imagine trying to control 7 different heros 1 by 1. Now I know that Henchies can not be moved by themself, I kind of like this feature, because that means less managing people as much. Now I know a lot of people will say they could manage it, but, in the middle of a battle, and you know you want X hero to do this and Y to do that while Z makes a good combo and I runs away while B uses a stance etc I would find that just a little to much

So for the limit they posted on it at the begining of NF I like that, I think its the perfect number that is managable.

For my sanity only /not signed

Double post, sorry. >.>

Then how come lyra_song, who answers "yes" much more often than myself, said "no" for the exact same reason?

I'd think you'd be above ad hominem, Kali.

Nevertheless, it's a valid reason. Ever wonder why Henchmen don't have perfect Weapons or Runed armor? It so that PvE has some semblance of difficulty.

/signed

It will solves quite a lot problems during quest and mainly mission:

No more rejected by team abused (because you're assassin, mesmer or whatever your profession that they think someone is more important than your role)

No dealing with leaver in the middle of a mission, people being stupid aggro 2-3 groups of enemies to get your whole team kill, or someone in your team speak with an NPC even though you told them not to do it. (player failed to follow order when necessary)

No more waiting for sudden time of day where there's more people online to able to find PUG for mission, ever since Factions and Nightfall released finding a PUG can be difficult especially when you're playing at night time. (Not everyone have the time to play in the daytime except in the late night)

--------------------------------

I have question for people who do not agreed with this idea, why should we put up with such unnecessary frustration with people from the 3 common problems that I listed from above?

...and how does the use of Henchmen not solve those problems?

Annoying players? You, 3 Heroes, 4 Henchmen. Not enough people? You, 3 Heroes, 4 Henchmen. What's the problem?

/signed

These are my reasons:

First of all, personally I don't like heroes at all, BUT, when I am playing with heroes, it is only because I either cant get a group with real people, or there isn't anyone there...In that case I find myself taking hench as well so I may as well take a full group of heroes.

I was actually hoping for seven heros in the first place. The game isn't easy for some, and I'd love having more "people" in my party I can mostly rely on (there are still a few bad spots here and there).

Problem is that henchman is not nearly as good as my heroes, if I have split up my team then my henchman is falling apart. Eternal Grove mission is good example for it.

Some people think having all heroes can be overpowered so what? Like teaming up with good team is not overpowered? If you think about it, it is basiclly the same thing teaming up with real players except you have higher chance of forming a better team with heroes than with a lot of players.

If we have to play with henchies, could we maybe update the bars somewhat?

3 chapters and Mhenlo still doesn't remove conditions. :/

How so? Even if you have 7 heroes, you have to order them individually to a location.

Well, you can do that with the current UI!

You have 4 buttons: Hero 1 control, Hero 2 control, Hero 3 contro, and Henchmen control. Assign your Heroes to one spot, assign your Henchmen to another. What's the big deal?

(And, introducting a game altering change just because of one mission is a bit unreasonable.)

Heroes are AI. If you don't manually control their actions/skills, they're not gonna just stand there. They're as stupid as henches, but you can at least set their skills before battle. Henches are all doomed to have a horrible skillbar. Just because you can edit a heroes skillbar doesn't mean you have to have to know what all 7 of them are doing all the time. I'm not sure what point you're tryin to make, but it sounds more like your own problem. If you're skilled at controlling/managing 7 heroes, you'll get things done faster and easier. Of course, they can still do things on their own. Your ability to control them will enable you to do much better than letting them do whatever they want on their own.

As for it making PvE easier, it would make it tons easier. Anet just took the lazy way - rather than giving us worthy enemies with a full/useful skillbar and the ability to have 7 heroes, they just make them lvl24+, give them extra armor/stats, make them attack in huge mobs, then give henches an incomplete skillbar and make them bunch up tightly for AoE dmg to kill them quicker. PvE isn't hard....but the AI and the many clueless people make it hard. Anet would have to buff pve enemies in other ridiculous ways to make sure your 1man-7hero team doesn't stop em without effort

/not signed

No one is forced to do any quest or mission with real people, other than elite missions, and forcing you to have a limit of bring max 3 heroes per person is fine with me. The other slots can be filled with the henchmen to form a complete group.

The game (Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall) is easily done with Henchmen alone, provided you do it right. Adding 3 completely customizable henchmen is great as it is and makes it even easier.

What you decide is fun may not be true for others. Don't condemn people because they derive "fun" in a different manner.

People like to bitch that heroes killed PUGs, and that may be true to an extent. Most people with any skill already used guild groups or hench to do what they needed in PvE; there was never a point waiting in an outpost for idiot PUGs.

I still don't see why anyone would try and prevent people from having 7 heroes. People who would actually take 7 aren't going to use real people because they're limited to 3; hench have always been a better option than most PUGs. >.>

EDIT:
That was never to give PvE difficulty. The horridly equipped hench were there to try and persuade people to group with humans. That still didn't seem to work though.

Kamikaze Chicken - *insert ad hominem attacks here*

Well This isnt vote to remove henchies from the game So, if you like em, great. I rejoice with you. Personally, i think henchies have horrible skillbars, which in no way synergize with the rest of the team. And i love synergies.

And? Do how do you control henchies? You can control heroes the same way, that is, you dont have to control them. Being able to put the runes you want, insignias, and most of all skill, is great. I dont need to micromanage them, nor do i do that with 3 heroes we have now. Sometimes it's micromanaging one, but overall i treat them as henchies with better skillbars.

I see you have no experience with RTS games. You would be suprised that people can micromanage...

Because he/she said the magic word, which is "yes" in this thread. You provided the wrong answer, and didnt argument it.

OK, to sum it up better - i argumented the stuff in my posts. Those who agree can type /agree, without the need to repeat. Those who disagree need to argument their own posts. The others who disagree can quote those posts and say /agree to them. But you cant just type "no" without beating my arguments.

[quote=I'd think you'd be above ad hominem, Kali.[/quote]

Dont make me start with ad hominem. If i used ad hominem you'd see me banned as i was like 4 time on GWO before i called Aiiane a biatch (with a good reason), and got permaban.

And? If people think heroes are too easy they can use henchies. Do i forbid them to use henchies and handicap themselves? No. So your argument is flawed.

PvE is easy, anyway. When they make it so difficult that every group with whammo fails some mission because they use noob mending builds, then i'll consider PvE difficult.

As is, you can do 8-man missions with 5 people if they know how to play. Is that difficult? No. So if i can do it with 7 heroes + me, oh wow big deal.

All these "game would be too easy" arguments are silly and you know it. What if 8 guildies go to do some mission. What if PvP guild goes to do some mission. Have you seen the record of The Spearmen on one of the NF challenge missions? Ha? It's obvious that PvE is easy for some, and difficult for others, and it's up to players to decide whether they want to use heroes or not.

Should good teams be penalized in PvE because they are good? Should ANet individualy intervine and say "look Spearmen, you should stick to PvP because when you play PvE everyone thinks it's so easy; you're ruining the image". Do you want that? Now, you'll say "no that's silly", but that's EXACTLY what you're trying to do. You're trying to say "Servant, you're uber, if you have 7 heroes you'll plow through the missions and it will be too easy, i cannot allow it because i dont know how to setup my heroes; thus it's not fair".

You dont get it People who answer no to this are those with whom no one wants to play. They think that forcing people to play with them is solution, instead of being great teammates with whom others will desire to play.

/patrially signed with on Hori

ill comprismise and grant 5 heros per party.

PARTY SEARCH FTW

it is suppossed to make it easier to find pugs if those kind of people want to.

For the rest of us we can settle with only using 2 henchman



Horible

What difference would it make to you if PvE became easier? Not everyone finds it easy, and if there were 7 heroes, there's no one forcing YOU to use all 7 - just stick with henchies if you want it more of a challange. Each instance of PvE is self-contained so no skin off your nose how people decide to play it - stoping something just because you don't like it is plain selfish.

/signed for those that want it, let them play how they choose.

I loathe Heroes. I'll take a PuG anyday (mainly because I like the community of Guild Wars).

Heroes suck. They're just like henchies. The only difference is that I get to chose how they're going to act stupid instead of the game deciding for me.

/Signed because other people know how to use Heroes and might want to play the game differently.

/signed

the only problem I see with it is the interface, honestly it is better to just play with henchmen and/or heroes alot of the time because PUGS just don't listen, they're actually worse than the AI could ever be most of the time, and if you're an assassin in pve you're basically required to play the entire game "solo"

I don't know if we really need 7 heroes, but more than 3 gets my vote, heroes are only as powerful as your imagination and unlocked skills can make them.

You're missing the point that I am trying to say though, henchman is weak ingeneral, if you have 7 heroes meaning you have full control of skills for each heroes to use. 7 Heroes can be much more to offer to you than 3 heroes and 4 henchman.

/signed

Only because my perspective is that in Elona you are forced to get used to using a number of different heros to do different missions. WEll after all the time and energy in equiping and building I'd like to be able to use my new 'friends' for all of my playing. I dislike having to decide which hero I bring and which I have to let sit on the sidelines.

I don't care about it being easier or not, it's simply that after I've invested time and gold into a char that I was 'forced' to use, I'd like to be able to keep using them.

And to be honest I only play with other humans when it's a guildmate or I just can't do it with hero/henchies (and no guildmates are around). I'd say that less then half of my PUGs were even remotely successfull, so I'd rather do it 15 times with henchies/heros before getting 'it' rather than trudging thru 4 bad PUGs to find that the 5th could do it....

Perhaps have Elite missions that let you use 7 heros but it's uber difficult. That way people like me don't feel like they've wasted time and gold on a char that will never get used again...

Alright, now you are becoming inane.

First off, lyra_song said "/notsigned". She didn't say "yes." No clue how you interpred that.

Second, your second comment...there are no right or wrong "answers!" THAT'S WHY IT'S A FORUM!

If someone disagrees with you, they are automatically wrong?! Then what the heck is the point of this thread!? It should be in Riverside Inn, because it's completely and utterly correct! It's the word of our god, Servant of Kali!

I'm not sure whether you are trying to offensively stereotype here or trying to spew hypocracy.

Take the counterexample. If I said "yes," would that make me "a great teammate with home others will desire to play?" Well, here's some news: if we had access to 7 Heroes, there would be no more parties. Period.

Buff Henchmen, don't eliminate them completely. That I agree with.

/notsigned
Sorry but the lag is bad enough these days, with 3 heroes you go into and outpost and the entire outpost has 4 people in the party. Has anyone thought what having the entire GW population running around with 7 heroes in their party, forget about going into a town, if you dont have the most up to date fastest computer going, which I would say the majority of the GW pop. do not. One of the pillars of the GW series I belived was the ability too run the game without having the most up to date PC. It was with Prophecies, it was with Faction, and it should continue in this vein.
So until they release a GW2, at which point they can go and increase the specs of the required PC to run the game by as much as they want, I really hope they quit introducing huge lag increasing features, and Im sure there will be MANY people too follow who state that the lag Im experienceing has nothing too do with heroes etc...etc..., sorry I will not buy it, and you can call me all the names in the book, when I installed Nightfall, for which I exceed the specs handily, my LAG increased tenfold, what is the main difference in the three, heroes. As much as I appreciate having them, I cant help but hold them a little responsible for the lag they introduced.
Plus most people can walk thru this game with 3 heroes, Tyria is a joke, with 7 heroes there would be few areas left that could pose a challenge. If people really need to get by a difficult mission, party up for the win, I mean you only need to find ONE person, whereas in the early days of THK etc, a person had/still has to in some cases, to find a party of 7. Keep the heroes as they are, they are a powerful force as is, besides the other reasons I can think off, 7 heroes would make too much of the game too easy.


Guess I missed the " Servant of Kali rules for engagment "sticky that must be posted. I'll go look for it now.

theres a couple of reasons i hate, and id guess most hate the required hero in mission thing

a)u get a team of 8 humans, then u find out u gotta bring along say koss, so u haveto kick someone, which i really dont want todo :/

b)gotta search around for who has the least worst koss or whatever, and maybe havetdo the mission with some level 8 that keeps on dieing.

Hmm, so because no one is forced to play with other people makes it cool to force you to have a limit on heroes? Um, I guess that makes sense to you. Anyway, wouldn't it be logical to assume that no one would be forced to use all 7 spots for heroes either? Sounds like you just want to oppose for opposition's sake.

Easily done by whom? You can only speak for yourself, not everyone is on your skill level. Besides, what does it matter if it makes it easier? Because you like a challenge you assume that everyone should be up for the same challenge. Why? As I said, with a reason like that, it just seems like you are opposing for opposition's sake.

As a matter of fact, I honestly think that everyone who says no to this is doing the same thing. It would still be "optional". No one would "force" you to get an all hero group, just like no one is forced to pug. There is no real reason to oppose it unless you get into the technical side of things. It would be like, if when the game was firstmade you could only play with henchies. Later Anet adds a feature that let's you add humans to a few spots in your party. Someone comes to Anet with an idea to let player be able to add complete human teams. Who would oppose that? What's the difference? It's still an option.

As for me, I don't play with humans anyway unless it's AB. Most of you are stupid, don't listen, have terrible builds, don't listen, don't know anything, and don't listen. And you know during a mission there will ALWAYS be someone who hasn't seen/simply won't skip the cut scene. Those problems are gone for me. I don't have a problem with 3 heroes 4 henchmen, just like I wouldn't have a problem with the option for 7 heroes. So what if 7 heroes makes the game easier? Who said I wanted a challenge in the first place? Maybe my idea of a relaxing fun time on Guild Wars is steamrolling through Margonite hordes. Why would you want to spoil my fun, it's not like you'd have to do the same thing.

Well anyways /signed as there is no real reason for me not to.