Warrior Taunt

Before anyone posts to this thread make sure you read this thread http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...61#post2458861 so you know where this all comes from. I'm going to repeat a lot of the stuff I said in the other thread just because it's on page 4 and will probly get lost sooner or later and because this should really be in this section.

There is currently a problem in the PvE aspect of the game with the warriors and their in-ability to be tanks/meatshields with the current AI system and it should be addressed. In the current AI the enemies just ignore any warrior and go directly to the casters. That's typical human AI and what I do all the time when I play. I don't have a problem with that. My problem is that there is no way for me to "pull" that agro off the casters. Instead I have to hope that my caster can stay alive long enough for my group to kill the enemies on them.

Yes there are multiple ways you can play a warrior and at times I WANT to be a meatshield. I should at least have the skillset as a warrior to be that. Most of the time I'm set up for pure offence (Warrior damage is pathetic) because nobody cares to hit me until last.

Here's my solution to the problem:
Leave the AI alone. I think it's fine, but annoying. Instead make 2 new skills, one regular skill and the other an Elite. Of course there will need to be modifications to the skill idea's I've just created but this will help a warrior be a "tank/meatshield" if they chose to be one.

Original skills
Skill Name: Taunt
Type: Skill
Attribute: Tactics
Casting cost: 10 energy (making it harder for warriors to spam)
Cast time: Instant
Recharge time: 5 seconds
Description: For 1.....10 seconds target creature focuses all their attacks on you.

Skill Name: "You're All Mine"
Type: Elite Shout
Attribute: Tactics
Casting Cost: 5 addrenaline
Description: For 1.....6 seconds 1....4 creatures within earshot focus all their attacks on you.


Skills with counciler123's suggestions
Skill Name: Taunt
Type: Skill
Attribute: Tactics
Casting cost: 10 energy (making it harder for warriors to spam)
Cast time: Instant
Recharge time: 5 seconds
Description: Target creature now targets you instead of it's current target.

Skill Name: "You're All Mine"
Type: Elite Shout
Attribute: Tactics
Casting Cost: 5 addrenaline
Description: 1....4 creatures within earshot now target you instead of their current target.


Q: What about PVP? How will that work against players?
A: Simple, if a warrior taunt's you, your target is locked to that enemy for all offencive attacks for x seconds. You won't be able to switch targets unless it's to an Ally. You would still be able to cast enchantments, heal, etc... to your Allies, you just won't be able to attack anyone except the enemy that taunted you.
counciler123's suggestion
A: Simple, if a warrior taunt's you, your target is changed to the taunter. You can then switch targets again if you wish.

Q: What about players in mid-cast when you "Taunt" them?
A: The spell the player was casting will still hit it's original target, but spells after that will target the taunter.


In all reality though, just exactly how much of a beating can a warrior take all at once and have the monks keep up the heals? Well, if you are in the high end, not much at all. 2 spikes from an ele, 1 warrior w/ hundred blades, and a necro w/ weaken armor will destroy that warrior. 6 seconds of that w/o a prot monk and your toast.

In my opinion the Taunt skill is a little weak but it would be effective w/o being overpowering. Since it has a 10 energy cost it will be hard for a warrior to spam that to keep all the agro off the group. SInce it can't be spammed the player would be required to use it appropriatly. If one of my casters is getting pounded on by 3 enemies, I'll Taunt one of them off then depending on how much energy I have after the 5 second recharge I'll try to taunt another one off. That still leaves 5 seconds of 2 enemies pounding on a caster. which still may be more than enough to kill them. You mis-manage your energy and you won't be as effective.

I think the Elite Shout is a little too powerfull in the description I've created but that's also why it's an "Elite" skill. But there are already counters out there for the Elite Shout for those of you who think this would be too powerfull, How about the necro "Well of Silence"? Cast that around a warrior and the warrior can't use shouts, shutting down their ability to do AoE Taunts.

/massively notsigned

Seriously, this is a terrible idea. There's no reason to build flaws into the AI, it stifles builds, player intelligence and game challenge. Grab your axe and start beating the bejeezus out of things, don't stand around with dolyak signet and mending wondering why nothing touches you.

No, there's no place for this in GW. I wouldn't want such a skill used against me in PvE either.

No thank you, cause then we would go back to the warrior runs in endure/defy/dolyak stands there for 5 seconds, casters run in monk heals and eles nuke boom 5 seconds later all monsters dead, lets repeat on next mob.
Instead of making a meathshield your teammates should be aware that they need to do theyr part too besides only brining damage skills.
You have 2 eles in the group?Make one damage make the other bring wards or freezing skills or why not blured vision?

No comment...

First you say to leave the AI alone then you say add skills and make it that when the skill is used the AI targets that target?Tell me how to do that without changing the AI.


No, just no......


Wrong, one monk is more then enough to keep one warrior taking heavy dmg from dieying, lets see, healing seed, Shield of Aborbtion, Protective Spirit, just to mention a few.

A skill having a counter ( like most skills have) isnt a reason to call a skill balanced.

With all that said ill say this

/Not signed for the hunderdth time

Maybe if they changed the AI so that if a warrior held onto something he would draw all aggro...like a book, or gear, or something?

Hey wow! thats not such a bad idea.

I wouldn't want it used agains me in PvE either. But here's an example of a skill I don't want to have used on me but love to use it myself. Escape. Awesome for when I'm on my ranger but annoying as hell when I'm trying to kill a ranger who uses Escape + Trolls back to full health. Similar deal here.


Good point, but are you talking about one mob or multiple? If it's one you wouldn't need Taunt but multiple I see your point. Solution, tone down the durration (1..5 sec) and increase the recast time (10 sec). Once it wears off they resume their current caster magnet AI.

This isn't changing the AI. All it's doing is temporarily changing the target.

No, I'm right. I said a prot monk. what you described was a Protection Monk. Those are protection skills.



So far Xenex you are the only one that has replied with "valid" arguments. Thank you.

I stoped reading at this point-.-

/no thanks
I donot want to be forced to attack one target.

Well, I for one agree with this idea. Maybe a few changes here and there, but it is a valid idea.

First of all, for PvE:

Taunt only works to draw aggro, not nessecarily keep it. Remove the timer on the target change amd make it a simple target change... dont make it so the MOB cant hit anything else. Say that a Charr Axe Fiend is attacking your monk, and you want it to stop. use taunt, and it turns and runs for you. But it is still able to decide that it wants to own your ele if it gets spiked.

PVP is a simple change too. Rather than have it FORCE a player to target you for a duration, it will simply change that player's currently selected target to you. But it wont KEEP it on you. They can still retarget your monk or w/e.

Both ideas work for the elite, only it is an AoE skill.

updated original post to add counceler123's suggestions

Also about a none prot monk being unable to keep a ally up i disagree big time, back when the mobs did only target the tank i could easily keep my tank up in fow for example and i play a pure healing monk. ( yes i dont carry condition removal)

rofl.

Get in the way of the enemies, have your casters run past you, deal some significant amount of damage to the enemies. Problem solved - unless your casters don't know how to run or you don't know how to deal significant damage.

Easier said than done unless you have a wall you can body block them on. Try it in an open field, they will run right past you. Whole reason for my initial post.

This would be horrible! All you would ever need is one tank, 1 prot monk and then a bunch of damager dealers. Lets dumb down the game even more! Not a fan of games they impliment taunts and threat levels and the such, just makes everything to easy.



Yeah they run past the big angry guy in full metal armour with a big sword to attack the guy wearing cloth at the back, it just doesnt make any sense! Warriors can still protect the backline if they know what they are doing, you just need to keep moving rather than stay in one place. Get inbetween the enemy and their target, when they move to go round you step in the way. As long as your backline knows how to kite you can keep them off them.

I think this is rather silly its like making a skill that forces monsters to walk over traps or stand under metor shower ¬¬
/not signed (just put mending on your monk XDXDXDXD)

Have you tested this? Does this work? I don't think so. Prove me wrong and show me a video of that tactic working and I'll be quiet about this topic.

Errm have essance bond on them?

Why of course....
A skill that forces my monk to target an enemy while healing, would be a great addition!

/end sarcasm

Seriously, this will definitely not work in Guild Wars.
The whole point in tanking is to charge at an enemy mob, while the back line stays outside the possible aggro-range. Your suggestion might work in PvE, but definitely not in PvP.

/notsigned

Simple fix, modify the description to say "target enemy that is not targeting an ally now targets you." Problem fixed.

You obviously haven't played other MMO's if that's your definition of tanking. The whole point of tanking is to take and keep the agro off your team. Also it doesn't matter if the back line stays outside the "possible" agro-range because if they did guess what, that's called "soloing". Even if they did they won't be able to do anything until the get inside the "possible" agro-range.

Well yeah...hence the reason I was able to post and tell you it works. I have a warrior as well as other melee chars so im well aware that this works. Does it work like the bundle trick? Hell no. You wont hold their aggro, but you stop them attacking your backline. In pve thats the warriors job, he is there to protect not dish out the big dps. Do I have a video? No...because I never thought showing someone that standing in the way of something means it cant get past...yeah I know it seems obvious doesnt it.

Tried what you've suggested and it doesn't work. Game physics and real world physics are different. Game physics can have flaws because it was designed by humans where real world physics can't. Show me a video or get confirmation from an ANet dev and I'll believe it.

Until then the issue still exists. Tanking as a warrior is still non-existant in GW as it stands.

Either way I'll still continue to play on with my warrior and rack up even more than the 6 million exp I already have but at times I would still like to be a deffensive tank where I can take the hits for the team. But as it stands that's impossible.

I understand where your concept of "tanking" comes from, but guild wars isn't designed like WoW or EQ or other games that are similar. Taunting would completely take over most of a warriors skills, and it would become less skill based. Plus, it wouldn't go over so well in PvP situations or have any use at all. In PvE it would become more like, "What? I got hit? Kick the warrior, he sucks at taunting." The warrior would just have a taunt button that he repeatedly smashes, focusing less on other skills, since his main objective just becomes being a meat shield. I think the warrior is a great class to play in guild wars, and wouldn't like it to turn into a "tanking" meatshield like in other mmorpg's, while the casters just sit and back casting damage spells, falling asleep with boredom unless they get hit. There's other ways you can force a monster to aggro on to you, granted your "squishy" members know how and when to kite. Knockdowns and crippling also seem to get their attention, just off the top of my head.

/not signed

Then your doing it wrong...
They wont start attacking you. If thats what you expect then yes this wont do that, and thank god! Would make the game for to easy. All it does is stops them being able to attack your backline.

Enemy runs towards your monk, you step in the way (Monk at this point is moving as well to keep the distance), enemy runs round you, you move back into the way. Rinse and repeat. This will stop them attacking your backline. They wont all turn and start hitting you though. Again this would be an awful feature that would only server to dumb down the game even more.

GW is good in the respect it doesnt allow tanking in the same form as other games. The enemy doesnt just attack the first target it sees or be abused with a skill that forces them to attack the most highly deffended char on the team. It means the whole team needs to work together, the warriors need to keep them enemy from getting to the backline, the backline need to keep moving to stay away from the enemy.

Im really not sure what you want though. If you want an ability simply to make tanking possible then totally /notsigned. Would ruin the game. If you want a way to protect your backline then its allready ingame.

Good argument. Best one so far and I also agree that I don't want the warrior to turn into a complete "meatshield" with these skills. Sometimes all that's needed is a few seconds where you pull agro off a caster to give the monk some time to heal them. That's what I'm really after. Something that can benefit the team but not completely alter every warrior in the game.

The problem with implementing taunt is it goes completely against the intelligent (yeah, work with me) AI that Guild Wars uses.

It's based on threat versus resistance. Strike at the critical points first. Knock out the defenses, take out the glass cannons. A monk in your backline makes it harder for enemy mobs to kill you, so the objective is to take out that monk.

It takes roughly twice as long to take down a warrior as a caster, all other things being equal. Which would YOU rather go after? Why is it silly for the AI to do anything different? Even if the warrior is screaming, "hit me, hit me, hit me" why in your right mind would you break off of a monk and start attacking the warrior?

You wouldn't. Unless you had no other choice. i.e. you were blocked, or the monk is kiting, etc.

The AI is easy enough to beat already. It doesn't need the further handicap of saying, "durr, attack the warriors and leave those monks alone."

And it would be totally ludicrous in PvP. Do we really need to go there?

To sum up: Change your tactics to fit the way the game works, don't expect the game to conform itself to the tactics you want to use.

Very true, and I'm not saying the AI is the problem. I'm saying that a taunt is a very usefull and missing skill from the warrior line. Hence the suggestion of skills and no complaints at all about the AI from me.


Which most warriors have. I'm adding suggestions that could be added and a taunt is one that can be added and modified so that it's not overpowering.


Very good arguments and suggestions. Keep them comming.

Ever tried using "None shall pass" this often causes monsters to target you or bulls strike draws agro with a good certainty theres no need for new skills if their already there.

By "possible" aggro I don't mean the size of your compass (obviously). I mean that you should stay outside the enemies aggro range (similair to your aggro range, which is the white circle on the compass, in case you didn't knew).

This still doesn't justify your suggested skill. It will likely never be introduced in Guild Wars. I think you should post a different suggestion instead of keep defending it. This discussion won't go anywhere. It's a bad suggestion. Period.

/signed

I think the OPTION should be there for a warrior to be able to focus the agro very temporarily on themselves. They are the ones with the high armor and absorbtion after all.

All of my current characters are casters. I do play in balanced groups who do bring skills other than damage and healing. Yet there are places that I am kiting and dying over and over since the AI will not attack the warriors and dervishes, they go for me no matter how far,fast, and by how many others I run. It would be great if the warrior could distract the enemies for a few seconds so we could rez the fallen without getting wiped in the attempt. Warrior do a Taunt so that bloody long cast time spell can get off the ground. (Oh look, a little thing called Teamwork!) People suggest "just run past the warrior, have them hit the enemy and you can escape." No, what that does is cause any other enemies to go "Oooh! A hurt squishy! I will go for that one!"

Casters staying out of agro range means they can not participate in the fight. Kind of pointless there. We have to move in to do pretty much anything (other than bond.) ___Plus not all skills have to be for PvP use you know.___

The skills would be something to distract the enemies for a few seconds. FEW SECONDS. They could change their target back once they realized they looked away. If you are in a fight you would probably go after (or glare at for a few seconds) the guy who said something to really tick you off. I do not condone a skill that will gather all agro for an entire battle, just something that will do "Hey uglies, look here!" to maybe aid in an escape. Make them so the recharge is a bit long or they cost too much to spam. Like all skills, not everyone will use them. For those who want the option let them.

/signed

I'm a warrior, I want to take damage for my team, not always easy.

just one skill would make warrior, or other tankers job that much more easier.

Easier...

Why does it need to be easier? From the number of people who have completed all 3 chapters I would say it doesnt need to be any easier. Making the game easier isnt required. If what you are doing right now doesnt work, try a new build or a different tactic. If your sitting them trying to spam riposte yeah then most likely you wont tank all that well. But get some knockdowns in or cripple them, use a speed boost etc. It all makes very it doable.

I have been playing since day one, I have beaten all chapters, I have my own defence built that works very well for me. I did not say to make the game easier, I said to make my job easier. I try to body block, agrro first and things like, that, even DP does not worry me because monster attack me a bit more.

But all that does not work all the time, having some thing just to make the the monster hate me a bit more would make my job a lot more effetcive I should say. Because rigth now, and this come from a veteran warrior, are basicly useless without some form of agggro control. I could go all offence, but then, a elementist or a mesmer can do a better job then a warrior.

Knockdown, cripple. Then deal damage. Play with Devona, she know the drill.

They'll stick to you. And by the time they try to change targets, they should be dead from pathetic warrior damage.

Bringing utility on a warrior isn't a good idea, it's a must.

Also, for a different perspective:
- On an ele nuker, I often AoE nuke a single target. FIX THE AI so mobs stick together
- An a monk I put prots on a target that mobs stop attacking. FIX THE AI so prot monks will be useful
- On a necro I put hexes on a foe that dies first. FIX THE AI so the mob will die last and take most damage from hexes
- On a ranger I miss with interrupts since mobs cast so fast. FIX THE AI so that I'll be able to interrupt
- On a mesmer the casters stop casting with backfire/diversion/mistrust. FIX THE AI so they simply kill themself. I can't do my job as mesmer if they don't do it

and so on...

If you want to tank, tank. Sometimes, you will lose agro - fact of life (or game). It's not the end of the world, it's not guarantee for a wipe. But agro management is possible 95% of the time (some mobs however are borked), and works very well, as long as your team cooperates even a bit.

But above all, when trying to tank, always look at skills and options.

Yeah good point from Antheus there. Pretty much sums it up. Having something work 100% of the time makes it to easy. What happens now is it works but not without work from you. Change your skills and your tactics and you will see a marked improvement.

Yes, I've read all the post before mine and I've put a lot of thought into this and his is what I've come up I hope it can please 90% of the people... the 10% well deal with it.

Fairbo's skill wish is good because with the new and "improved" AI they start to gun for the caster a lot more than before which yes make they seem "smarter" but it gotten to the point where playing a caster is not as fun as before.

I think a "Taunt" skill should just be 1 and an elite also because having 2 probably will throw off balance. I condier a team of W/x and just keep using the skill... very annoying.

Skill Name: "You're All Mine" (I wanted to call it "You Can't Catch Me" (Greased Up Deaf Guy from Family Guy)
Type: Elite Shout
Attribute: Strength
Casting Cost: 10 adrenaline
Description: For 3...5 seconds your allies within earshot become untargetable to enemy. When you use this skill you lose all adrenaline.

The 3~5 second is deternment by how many points do you have in Strength, kinda like Assassin's Critical Strike every 4 levels you increase a second. So 4 points you get 3 seconds, 8 you get 4 seconds and 12 and higher you get 5 seconds.

With 10 adrenaline to use, it will take you a while to charge it up which mean people will be using it when it is well into the battle and when your team mate really need the aid of this skill.

Before you even say this is bad for PvP it works for PvP, you can save it when your caster is getting beat up badly and need a way to get away. You run to them and use the shout and give your caster team mates a few seconds to heal up or run away.

I've thought about the "What If". What if a team of W/x all have this skills and they just rotate around the arggo? Your team will have to come up with a spike build or even easier "Soothing Image" so they can't charge up their Adrenaline or Blinding skill (Throw Dirt) so they can't hit you and not charge up adrenaline or dodge skill so they are not hitting anything to build up adrenaline.

I don't see it come a "game breaking" skill. There are many counter for it and it can be useful and it can be a pain when it is use on you which is what make the game interesting.

For those of you say PvE is easy and you just take out enemy's monk then you win the fight... not quiet. A lot of time when you face an enemy boss (warrior especially) and you want to take him out first because they hit HARD!

wahh maybe 55 monks can use them in pve to make monsters attack em

Well, with the current crap AI that prefers running over fighting; and that refers to both allied and mob AI, a taunt would help... why? Simply put, anyone that has followed the major complaints vs the AI right now knows that the AI prefers class vs threat.

Almost all players know a warrior is one of the most dangerous classes out there in terms of damage output; yet we also know the monk is the prefered target of the AI. We also know that the monk AI doesn't have a clue that taking 1 point of damage isn't the end of the world and thus will begin to apply for the Benny Hill show. So any arguments for "work arounds" towards the AI, such as the favored easy to exploit "snare and follow" while the AI still tries to run away unknowing it will easily drop dead while walking away crippled really are missing the point.

A taunt as it were, would actually open a huge dynamic change in both PvE and PvP. Those that don't see it's use in PvP are only seeing half the potential of it.

If mobs were given a taunt so to speak, it could be put in wisely and actually give the PvE some more challenge. How so?

Using our crap AI we have now that allows you to instantly charge the mobs backline and wipe them out, lets say on your way back there a warrior taunts you. You are now target locked (vs hostile) to him and him alone. You could still switch to friendly targets, just no other hostile ones for X seconds. That warrior has just done a good job at protecting his backline.

Does it mean that the warrior is a "protector" only? Not at all, and in some cases all out aggression is better. It's just an option that the warrior would now have. Similar to the options and choices a mesmer has. Be prepared for the challenges ahead and you'll fair better.

Does it make it easier in PvE? Not if done right and if also given to the mobs. Is it needed? I think so and I think it will add a needed dynamic to add some interesting game play back into the PvE. It might also stop a lot of the AI antics of Benny Hilling about like fools.*

Using the same potential in PvP could be applied. I know, I know, heaven forbid anything change in PvP that upsets the "balance" of those that have it down to an art...

A shift in thinking from player only skill uses to skills that both mobs and players uses is needed here. Taunt and such skills do have a place in GW.


* Yea cripple works, but how do I cripple Dunkoro so he will stop running from single digit damage numbers or while he's protected under Life Sheath so he will stop running and actually heal? Even if I get the mobs off him, he will still run around like a sand flea looking for a snack. - a taunt might buy enough time for him to get a heal or two off before the next time he gets an itch he can't scratch.

/signed

This is why I want it to be strength so you can't kinda "mis-use" the skill.

I read this page and i still think its over powerd however it gets implemented..
Think about 2 warriors with this 3 monks and 3 rangers or eles or some kind of damage dealer. The monks keep warr one alive and he spams mind control whenever he can then he eventually gets low(7 tank skills and 2 undistacted-unattacked monks takes a long time to kill) and the other uses it, but he is at full heath so the other team starts from scatch. Then rinse and repeat. imortal team much? Remember that anything that costs adrenilin can be kept up a long time under the right condidtions (easy enough when your not targeted)