PVP Killing PVE IMO Biggest part of game

This does make sense however. its times like these I REALLY have to quote 4chan, LURK MOAR!
http://guildwars.com/support/gamecon...vpeditions.php

The test forum is for reactions to specific changes. Arenanet does read the other forums as well.

PvE vs PvP threads don't usually go anywhere because the OP starts off by flaming the other side, not to mention a lack of competence and ability to communicate on both sides. The only reason this thread's still open is because people have somehow managed to stay civil; our moderators are trying to figure out how to recreate this.

QFT - if you can get through PvE with Power Attack and Mending, nerfs to skills aren't going to hurt you.

I have to agree. Ive been playing this game pretty much since it came out and Ive played both games and there are killing each other. They need to separate the way the skills function for PvP and PvE so that they benefit there version of the game. There are way to many examples of this to use and if I were to choose just 1 most of you will focus on it. This topics on the fact that they should separate the 2 versions. PvE is taking on a computer generated foe that in alot of cases has way more power then any PvE character has and that extra power that some of the skills have are needed and make it more fun in a lot of cases. In PvP it need to be more balanced and yes there needs to be a constant change so that certain builds don't get to overpowering. and to keep the players interested playing PvP.

PvP players are accustomed to changing builds for what the team needs, where PvE players tend to run the same bar for much of their lives after lvl20. It may seem unfair, and it may be unpleasant at first, but GW PvE is more exciting when you play different skillbars.

And if you've been playing the same bar for a long time, you will no doubt have lots of skillpoints and access to elite skill locations to help facilitate your experimentation.

Bingo, diversity is an important key to life, and in this game to, this is exactly why I used skills I never touched much before when I brought my
seasoned toons thru NF, ran earth magic all the way thru, now I LOVE earth
magic, have not touched fire in NF yet.

I also came up with a few other builds that were just a blast to play, like
setting Koss and my Assassin up as hammer stance tanks to take on Shiro,
he wimpered like a baby, the list will continue to go on, don't look back to
much try to look forward harder.

btw- could I plz have about 5 more seconds of SoH back pretty plz.......lol...

nail on the head. it shouldn't, but it is, and that is unfortunate, and its even more unfortunate that some of the best pve areas are only accessible because of happenings in a pvp arena.

i've helped make balance patches for several EA titles, and there is no such thing as true balance. there will always be a skill to counter another skill, a skill that is better than another skill, and skills that are garbage that nobody uses. there will also be FAR superior skills that dominate competitive play, that's to be expected. but, a skill is only overpowered if there is no counter to it.

tired of getting pwnt by searing flames? interrupt it, use armor that has a bonus to elemental resistance, or use a skill to reduce the damage to yourself. don't just cry that its OP and needs nerfed because you can't be bothered to properly counter it! isn't pwning the crap out of things the whole point of playing GW? or any game for that matter? we're not here to hop around as little pink bunnies popping bubbles to get candy and unicorn kisses, we're here to do some damage to our foes. powerful spells like searing flames are what make the game fun and challenging.

I think the question, which I honestly don't have a clear answer for, is what balance consists in. Now I don't think in the context of GW pvp that a format imbalancing skill is one that merely has no counters, but also one that requires you to sacrifice flexability in order to be forced to bring a lot of counter measures just to be able to deal with that skill/skills. On top of this the power level of certain skills may simply be too great given for the cost/drawback, broken skills end up fostering formats where there is little diversity, and they might even come close to making useless certain classes. Overpowered spells do the exact opposite of making the game fun and challenging. They make it too easy and boring.Competative GvG needs proper skill balance like magic has always needed proper card balance to maintain healthy and fun environments instead of degenerate ones.

In general on the topic of PvE v PvP. I've tried to be very nice personally in discussions about this, but really, I find it a little crazy that PvE players complain about the only thing that PvP players get (and should get and haven't got)- skill balances to try and make a fun playable competative format- while they get the vast majority of resources are dedicated to them. New expanisions, and definately nightfall, bring tonnes of new PvE content, new story, new mission, new elite missions, new loot, new farming areas, etc etc. There are some skills that Anet fixes with Pve in mind, the AOE scatter effect for example has no effect on PvP, but most changes are made to make pvp workable and they have little or no effect on the playability of pve. So please just stop complaining and realize how good you have it compared to longsuffering pvp players.

EDIT: If PvE sucks right now it has nothing to do with skill balance and everything to do with the fact that PvE content hasn't really changed in form since the first game. The mission structure, the quests, its all new but different shades of the same thing. They've also made the game less open ended and explorable and more linear. PvE sucks DESPITE the fact they put more time into it, PvP sucks BECAUSE they put no time into it.

Basically the explicit claim in the title of this thread - pvp is killing pve - is pretty much false as false can be.

I suppose if we take your argument and follow it to the end - then Anet should just make a God Mode for everyone and skills such as "Nuclear Bomb" that completely kills the other team in 1/4 sec. Whoever spams it first wins!

Honestly, you cannot say there aren't skills that need nerfing (and buffing) because if you believe they don't need it - then I know why you must haev failed at balancing skills for whoever it was you said you did it for...

Balancing skills should inspire creativity and skill. Yes there are going to be skills that get a lot of use in PvE or PvP, but that is fine. However, PvP shouldn't just be: Fire Attunement + Glyph of Sac + Meteor Shower + SF + GG + SF + GG + SF + GG + SF + GG.......

Get the picture? Anet seems to be trying to actually inspire some sort of strategy to the game through skill balancing (or at least that should be the point).

Any noob can spam their skill bar...however, build != skill, or at least it shouldn't.

Speaking strictly as a PvE player I don't mind the skill changes, it just keeps the game fresh by forcing me to rethink old builds and come up with new solutions to old problems. The simple fact is that this is an online game, and in online games things change. If you want to use the same skill set forever, you need to be playing an offline game where you have the option not to download the newest patch. I enjoy that kind of game as well, but you can't force one game model to be another.

Actually the nerfs aren't that bad and they aren't "all about PvP whining" If that was true Grenth avatar wouldn't strip enchants and would last significantly shorter amount of time with a longer recharge, in fact all the avatars would have been nerfed all to hell with the exception of Balthazar. they do it because it needs to be done, for better or for worse in your opinion but it keeps the game dynamic instead of stagnant. If they didn't do it then you would end up with a handful of FotM builds that everyone would want to use and then there would be no innovation.

I would have to say that they optimize both PvE and PvP because it's the thing that's going to make them the most money. Some people like to be rich through farming and gain economic status or people want their names displayed after they took halls. You make the PvE-ers and the PvP-ers more happy, the more money you rake in.

You know, I've been playing gw since the beginning, and I will always say that for the money, its one of the best game deals ever. I have enjoyed both the pvp and the pve.

Nevertheless, on the pve side, I find myself a bit bored now. My guild and I have cleared UW, FOW, Deep, Urgoz, and beat Mallyx. I've beat the main game itself with 5 different characters and have full UAX. But the game just doesn't have enough immersion on the pve side. I want a house I can put my stuff in, I want mounts I can ride, and more in depth crafting.

I want the detail of oblivion or morrowind, only for an MMORG. Guild Wars is a beautiful game, and kudos to anet, but they just don't have the business model to include that kind of content. For this reason I've decided to begin playing a more pve-oriented (and monthly fee) MMORG which is going to be released at the end of the month, and keep playing guild wars whenever I need my "zomg pwn all joo noobs" fix.

That having been said, I'll probably buy the next GW chapter anyway

rofl @ glad's defense.

This thread is a joke, right? Glad's defense isn't used in PvP. I'm a PvPer and when I read skill updates, I saw "Glad's Defense: decreased blah bla~" and just skimmed over it, because I know for a fact that I'll never see it used.

Glad's defense is only used in PvE and by noobs in RA who just graduated from PvE and think they can aggro the enemy team and tank it like monsters. (In reality, their teammates get killed first and then they get killed 4v1. Just stating this, because it looks like OP doesn't realize that glad's defense is not a PvP skill)

Also, if you think it's difficult to cap, you're bad at this game. Yes, it might take a long time... if you consider 20 minutes long. Dragon's lair is a joke, even with a lvl 16 mesmer and all henches.

What's funny is that power attack is actually good now.

Expect mending to get buffed to give 1...7 regen in the next update!

if you want to play a strategy game, play an RTS. "strategy" in an MMO is little to none in comparison to real strategy games. GW is all about your build. the most strategy involved is anticipating what your opponents will be doing and setting yourself up to counter them, and maybe a bit of kiting. the rest is just spamming your skills at the right times. pvp players like to think they're gods for using the same cookie-cutter builds everyone else is using, but are so quick to criticize pve'ers of only using one skillbar which is an absurd, elitist assumption, btw.

i don't even mind the changes, and i'm not even complaining about them. i don't think anet balances the game properly. also, i just think they are unnecessary when there are much bigger things that need fixing in the game - even in the pvp area. leechers, anyone? bots? how about pve...an auction house and new storage solutions are two of the most sought-after features people would sell their mothers for.

and i most certainly didn't fail in balancing other games, nice elitist assumption there too concering something you know absolutely nothing about and thanks for putting "GW should have uber nukes!" in my mouth as well. searing flames is not THAT overpowered. if yr just going to stand there and LET an ele do that, its yr own fault.

This is slightly off topic though since this thread has degenerated into a PvE v/s PvP debate I'm going to toss this out there anyway. PvP is not the end all be all of the game. It has it's own set of problems. Try finding a group if you aren't x rank. Good luck with that. You want to talk about cookie cutter builds? Thumper anyone? Touch Ranger? SF ele? That being said ,and before some PvE person starts trying to give me a handjob for having their back, PvE is not the end all be all of the game. Ridiculous economic standards. PUGS!!! Class discrimination. Cookie cutter builds here too. There is no such thing as a PvP or PvE only problem and there is certainly no such thing as one being better than the other. That's subjective. On Topic Skill balances are not done because PvPers whine or because PvE people farm too much. Skill balances DO affect PvE as much as PvP whether you believe it or not. Skill balances are done to keep the game dynamic and interesting and you either like that or you hate it. If you hate it might I suggest Diablo 2? I'm sure they are finished messing with the skills there now and just look what happened to that. There are about 4 or 5 builds that pretty much own everything. Do you want Guild Wars to be like that? Where everyone wants the same 4 or 5 builds? If you don't then shut up and stop complaining about skill balances. If you do then just uninstall the game from your hard drive, delete your forum cookie here, forget the web address and go play Diablo 2 or something even less inspired.

Thanks for the humor, made my day.

Skill balancing is not a bad thing. There are many, many instances where skills needed to be nerfed to restore equity in PvP battles - I'm sure many of you remeber the spirit spamming ranger builds that totally dominated HoH before they nerfed ranger spirits. The nice thing about that particular nerf was that it had little to no effect on PvE play.

There are a few nerfs that they've made this weekend that I'm not happy with, and many that I think are just right. The same attitude I've had about previous skill balances. What makes me very happy is that this is a TEST weekend, the skill changes aren't permanent and A-net has included the players' inputs as to how all of the nerfs/buffs to make the final skill changes as balanced as possible.

As so many people have pointed out, if there's a feature to a skill that's on your skill bar that gets nerfed, look around for a replacement skill. Heck, there's many, many different builds for all professions listed on these forums, check them out and try different ones to see how well they work, you may be surprised by something you've overlooked - it's happened to me many times

Wow, now thats elitism."real" strategy?. Given your characterization of competitive GvG its seems to me like you've never really played it. I don't remember ever critizing pve players over skill choices thats not the point. Regardless, whether or not you think highly of pvp in GW or not is really quite irrelevant to whether it should be a reasonably supported format that gets the proper skill balances that it needs. A lot of people do play, do enjoy it, do find it fun nd think that it has a lot of potential. If we wanted to play something else ewe would. The point of this thread was about PvP ruining PvE. Its not. Is PvP balanced? No its not. I still don't think you have a reasonable defintion of what balance includes and I don't care that you worked on this issue elsewhere. If you think GvG is balanced atm then that is some evidence against you. Overpowered skills make an environment less fun not more fun. Its not about searing flames/glowing in particular though its obvious that was very powerful, I was surprised that it even got adjusted in the end. There are lots of absuive skills some of which got the adjusments they needed over the weekend while others did not. Leechers? Bots? Are you talking about apsenwood or AB or something and thinking thats a more serious issue than game balance for GvG and HA?

Gah...sorry if this is pushing things toward flaming, but man come on

Lol! Honestly, do you know there is such thing as GvG? Have you ever watched the championship (btw there is $100,000 on the line for the winner). There is definitely strategy. Also, the ones winning GvG at high levels aren't running cookie cutter builds - they are running very innovative builds that are so balanced that they are rarely able to be defeated by some scrub FoTM. Please, go back to RA, AB, or whatever scrub hole you came from because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

Leechers? Who leeches HA or GvG? Thats what balance in PvP world is intended for. I have no concern about Leechers. By the way - take a couple of screen shots and submit then to ANet - thanks!

Also, I think some of the skill changes are aimed at reducing the amount of botting. Additionally, ANet is constantly banning botters. However, there is only so much they can do. Please, feel free to give them the solution. I'm sure they are all awaiting your supreme guidance.

Hmmm... auction house and storage > skill balance? Lol! Yes, they would be nice, but they have made some changes - but I am sure that is not their top priority. Making money by developing new chapters > auction houses.

The "uber nukes" comment was not in reference to SF - it was however in reference to you failed attempt to make a logical statement by saying "isn't pwning the crap out of things the point in GW?". If that was the case then, yes, my point is a good critique of how absurd that statement is when followed through with. If YOU need to pwn things all the time without using any skill and just smashing buttons - if YOU think that is what makes a game fun - then please go WoW or some other place that is grossly underbalanced and quit speaking here about things you obviously have no clue about.

PS. True, searing flames is not that overpowered - but it did need to see a bit of the nerf bat. In fact it barely got touched at all, and I think Anet did the right thing by nerfing GG which was why SF was able to be spammed almost indefinitely.

Again skill > build - or at least it needs to be...

Thanks, come again!

Skill nerfs aren't usually that bad. But it gets annoying when a skill you've used for a while becomes less effective because that sometimes translates into longer battles and a probable death or two. I'm sad about Searing Flames because I just got it for Acolyte Sosuke and thought that I could enjoy some manner of uberness with him. All he needs is a green focus item and he's complete. *lol* I'm not against PvP but I am against PvP affecting PvE in any way aside from skill nerfs(or buffs). Personally, I don't go to the high level areas because I would be utterly destroyed, though I went to FoW once just to see what it looks like. But when I'm strong enough I'd like to be able to go to any area I like without having to wait until 9pm to go there.

the glads nerf hasnt stopped farming wiht it at all. it made my farming build 10x faster

I agree, I didn't see this a a nerf. I must say I only Occasionally
used it in my farming build and as above seems to work faster now.

I still and probably always will consider PvE in Guild Wars to be a training ground leading to PvP.

Learn new things, Learn new skills, Meet new friends.

Then.. Go PvP with what you have learnt.

The PvE content in GW will never be up to the standards of almost 'offline' play style some you seem to expect and/or demand.

PvP is definitely not killing PvE.
PvE is definitely not intended to be the biggest part of the game.

However sadly Anets biggest fan base seems to be with PvE

*Shrug*

We all play Guild Wars the way we like best and one way isn't really better than any other. What is a training mode for you may be the main point of the game for someone else.

Skill changes happen in EVERY MMO.

Whether or not a certain MMO has PVP or not, there's ALWAYS nerfs and buffs. I see far too much scapegoating and blaming PVP for PVE issues.

As I said before PVE's problems have nothing to do with skill changes but with a whole slew of other things such as predictability and that it's ALWAYS the same when you play a certain instance.

If you want to improve PVE, stop blaming skill nerfs and PVP.

I enjoy PVE as always: before, during and after skill changes.

Personally, I enjoy the changes in PvE (don't do PvP), as they keep the game interesting. I don't think I would still be playing as much as I do if I was playing the same game I started a year ago.

And don't blame ANet for changing the skills. It's caused by the inventive minds of GW players. ANet creates a skill that they obviously think will be used in a certain way. Along comes a PvP player and "boom," the skill now has a use ANet never thought about.

P.S. Would the "farmers" please stop apologizing for farming. You are making it sound like farming is a "politically incorrect" occupation. We all farm in one way or another, whether for items or xp or gold, you don't need to apologize because you enjoy it (though I haven't figured out how you could).

Yeap but they seem to forget that when ppl want to have fun with the game eg. farm and run.To the OP I like Glad Defence to but it isn't the skill I use the most of on my Warriors bar those would be evsicrete and dragon slash.Charge is a good elite it is good in both parts of game especially in GvG.The Dragons Lair mission it not that hard and it is not that hard to cap Glad Defence I did it with henchies and it wasn't that hard.

Searing flames is a little over powered what was it like capping that skill I would bet you harder than Glad Defence and it is easy to spam and run out of energy.I don't think separating the game is a good idea for those that want to use thier RP char. in PvP.I would urge you to try new build without Glad Defence and besides it won't increase the amount of damage you put out.

The point has been made about the EQ mechanic in which skills have different functions in PvP than in PvE and that in order to use a skill for PvP purposes a player must switch it to the PvP function. This would be a viable solution but difficult to implement with the current code of the game.

I've never really done much PvP, although I like the occasional PvP. I'm more of a fan of PvE, much more to explore and much more fun in my opinion

I like how most of you just ignored Wasteland's post. Was it because you knew that he was right and there was nothing else to talk about? Or was it because you weren't bright enough to understand what he was saying?

The bottom line is that skill balance matters more in PvP than it does in PvE. It isn't a matter of which format is better, or which format Anet likes more, or even which format GW was 'designed for'. Imbalance destroys PvP, which is why it's addressed more often.

People who play PVE dont care about balance. They want "uber" skills that kills lots of monsters with lots of damage with a single click of a button. Extra points if there's a lot of special effects and explosions accompanying the mass destruction.

So yes, of course they'll ignore any rational and logical explainations that the changes are for balance. So there will always be pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth whenever skills are touched.

I agree with you PvP is more affected by skill imbalances however, it is very narrow minded to imply that it doesn't appreciably affect PvE, which many people have implied in their posts if not outright stated it. I would also like to say that the majority of PvE players do not want "uber skills" that just destroy everything. We like an element of strategy and planning and we like coming up with the perfect combination of skills to just mow down the opposition.

Now I know I can't make such claims that PvE is affected by skill balancing without backing it up to some degree. Aside form all the whining you hear from farmers about how their precious build that allowed them to make 50K in an hour doesn't work anymore there is one simple fact that you are ignoring. While our opponents are less intelligent and more predictable they can also be orders of magnitude more powerful than any opponent you face in PvP. The player cap on level is 20. Monsters can be higher than that and if you think they let those extra attribute points just sit there you are very wrong. Granted they will not use the skills as intelligently, though the new AI seems to understand the concept of spiking very very well, when they do use some of those damage skills you will see more damage out of them than you will ever see in PvP. Those lvl 28 Ele mobs will spike the crap out of you in a heartbeat and without some of the "overpowered" skills you will die time and time again with no ability to counter some of it. I realize spells can be interrupted but there are some times in the chaos of battle that that isn't feasible and it is no different from me saying that if you don't like an overpowered skill you should just counter it.

I think that PvPers need to communicate better in community settings like this. I know many of you do legitimately try to explain why these things must be done and you do it well, but you have to admit by and large the replies we PvE people get when we complain about a certain nerf is." Shut up PvE is for noobs. It doesn't matter. Go cry about farming some more." I would encourage those of you with the decency to try to make a legitimate attempt at bridging the understanding gap between our two , admittedly, differing view points to not get discouraged and to keep it up. For those of you who believe that PvE people are whiney scum I would ask you to follow some of your fellow PvPer's example. If you need any encouragement I invite you to take a look back at some of my old posts on skill nerfs. I used to be there whining with the rest of them and it took a lot of patient and competent explanation from some very level headed PvP players to finally make me understand why. I still don't have to like a nerf (honestly who does?) but at least I can understand the why of it.

But the thing is....PVE in general really is affected very minimally by skill changes. First, PVE is static and predictable. You can always be prepared with a build before you even step into a PVE instance.

Second, heck you can even go into PVE with empty skill bars at times. Or even short handed. Basically, PVE is easy.

Yes, I do hate PVE now but only because I've played it so much since the betas. It's boring and easy for the most part. So I can understand why so many do want "uber" skills that kill everything. I wasnt exaggerating when I said that.

I'd settle for an uber build that I thought of all on my lonesome than one uber skill. I think I found that with my Dervish. I mean I still die but it's rare and he does pretty much mow down everything. I still have to plan ahead, kite, work the enemy backline, apply pressure and the like. Certain skills are required to do that and many of them are the same ones you use in PvP for the same purposes. So if those sills catch a nerf it does make more of a difference to you, after all I'm not gaining rank or fame and I have no chance at winning prize money in PvE, but it does make a difference to me as well and by and large for the same reasons they make a difference to you. An example would be in my dervish build. I rely on keeping a more or less constant condition of some sort on the enemies, be it blind, bleeding, or fire. Not only do two of these mean DoT but it also pressures the enemy monks to keep up with condition removal instead of healing. Believe it or not they do actually react that way. Now If one of my condition dropping skills got a nerf because it was used in HoH for the same purpose, keeping pressure on the backline to keep the warriors clean instead of maintaining vital enchantments, and it was deemed too powerful and it got the nerf it would not only affect you in PvP but me in PvE and it would make my life much more difficult just as it would yours.

I don't really disagree with you guys on any particular point, but I think you give PvE too little credit. I have tried PvP and honestly I find it boringly easy. Granted I can't go in there with an empty skill bar or shorthanded but with my Mesmer/Necro I can basically shut down an entire backline which results in a quick death for the opposing team. While you may find PvP to be a challenge I find it to be a chore. This doesn't mean PvP is a less worthy aspect of the game or that it is in any way worse it simply means that my perception of it differs from yours. Honestly for all the talk of the metagame and strategy in both PvE and PvP you have to admit it's still basically the same principle it has been from the get go. Remove the support and the rest will fall. That is universal no matter how many skill balances or updates they do.

That being said I still think a more respectful dialogue from both sides, the PvP and PvE aspects of the game, will be the one thing that finally brings this old debate to a close. I mean honestly how long has this same sort of argument gone on? I bet if you look back you will find dozens of threads with the same basic theme and the dates will coincide with the major skill balances and changes. What it all stems from though is that you have a hardcore PvE camp and a hardcore PvP camp and neither of us really see eye to eye. It's not that we can't it's simply that many times we get too frustrated trying to explain our points to one another. Patience and dialogue will be the key here. It worked for me. I understand perfectly why skill balance is needed and I do not blame PvP in the slightest. I adapt and I move on even if my life in game is more difficult because of it. I rest easy knowing that it's not just me having a hard time now because once these things happens it usually results in a paradigm shift in the metagame that leaves a lot of PvPers scrambling to adapt and sometimes having a hard time doing it.

I'm quite solidly a PvEr. I follow what's happening in PvE via forums, and PvPer friends, but I almost never particapate in any higher PvP than TA.

I loved the changes, a large number of skills were opened up,and in all honesty, the change to warrior stances means less to PvE than it does to PvP.

And hey, com'on people, if they were going to nerf purely from a farming point of view, why didn't they touch Stoneflesh Aura + Mystic Regen? Why doesn't Pront Bond have some tiny limiting factor in it that prevents any form of 55-monking?

A.Net has been balancing skills for nearly two years now, 'nerfing' and 'buffing' scores of skills. All it takes is a coincidental 'nerf' to a skill that's abusable in two formats, and people yell that A/Net somehow 'hates' pvpers.

Yeargh >_<

The thing is, you can't convince me that this has actually happened this time, so I'm sorta confused.

The irony in this thread is hillarious.

PvP vs PvE threads are always a good read before bed

Honestly though I don't think this needs to be one of those threads and there has been some real honest to goodness dialogue here in the latter pages and that's good. The more they continue to add to the Guild Wars universe the more equally represented the play styles are and soon I think that PvE v/s PvP will become less of an issue. I think a lot of PvE players are coming around and seeing that skill nerfs are not because of whiney PvP players and I think that a lot of PvP players are beginning to see that the nerfs and buffs to affect us significantly as well. that is at least one good outcome of these things. With each progressive thread like this more and more level headed and mature points of view are put forth and that fosters a better understanding between the two play styles.

I thank you Str0b0 for your post #72 and #74.

In all honesty, i dont really think PvE is worse off from the skill balance. I am still around arent I? But it can be discouraging when "nerfs" are rolled vs frustrations of imbalanced build dominating PvP scene.

The nature of the discussions between PvE and PvP aspects have always been on the edge with both sides citing each other for whining and debuking each other on basis of experience. In short, creating alot of drama in the process rather than logical deductions towards the actual problem.

Most of this stems from the same unspoken reasons why the general mood of such and other fansite forums are negative in general. Because different interest group are in direct competition for attention/changes to their specific area of concern. This can take place in the form that can be percieved as whining, forum elitism, immaturity or just plain name calling. No one wants to be perceived to be weak in their arguements and hence will go to whatever lengths to get what they want. Which in the end, most of the things we read here should be taken with a pinch of salt. ( The same can be said of most of my posts as well. )


_____________________
General Rule of the forum universe: Joo Flame me ! I FLAME JOO BACK MOFO!

Cheers for the call for civility Anyway, I'll put in my two cents here. I think a lot of the angst on the skill changes here isn't comming from the idea that the updated versions are bad. Some are quite good. The problem is they are comming in at the cost of skills some players would prefer to see unchanged. You can debate which version of glad's defense is better all day long. Ultimately, it would depend on what it was being used for and what you're going up against. But it won't change the fact that some people prefer it the old way. If Anet would simply add a new skill in the next chapter called "Champion's Defense" or something like that, having the new glad's stats, and leave the old glad's alone, no one would have batted an eye. Adding new skills in new chapters won't cause controvercy, changing something someone had on their skill bar, even slightly, will.