Whenever ANet makes changes that negatively affect PvE, the PvP crowd snidely says "Learn to adapt. PvE is already easy. The skills you use in PvE don't matter."
Of course, the PvP people look at PvE through the eyes of human-on-human competition. In PvP, the game is about mini-maxing skills, about fine-tuning to achieve a specific *game* goal.
You can't validly apply that philosophy to PvE.
In PvE, the experience is the goal. With the exception of farming, PvE is not about mini-maxing, it's about playing a character and experiencing a universe.
So why are skill changes a problem in PvE? Because it can ruin a character in terms of role-playing.
An example of this is Beast Mastery. My ranger does not take a pet for the tactical advantage -- she has played her 1200 hours with a pet because doing so is part of her character. A nerf that makes a pet unviable in PvE would ruin the fun I have playing my character.
Don't get the idea that my characters are one-trick ponies who rely on one skill bar. For example, my ranger runs more than two dozen very different builds, depending on the environment.
For me, defining a character isn't about picking eight skills and never changing them -- when I create a character, it is with a specific philosophy and personality.
My necromancer never runs minions. She is a witch, a spellcaster with a focus on the Curses line. She may have a dozen different builds, but they are all coherent within the concept of "witch-mage". Any change to the game that would prevent me from using curses effectively would wreck the character -- not because I don't have "options" in changing to another skill line, but because another skill line doesn't fit the character.
Fortunately, ANet has yet to make pets or curses unusable; but for other classes...
I stopped playing my Ritualist a while back, after skill changes rendered my favorite builds unenjoyable in PvE. I had a specific mental image of who the character was and what her motivations were -- I can't play a PvE toon unless it has some sort of identity, and the skill changes destroyed the identity of my character. Yes, I could use another skill line, but that would be an entirely different character.
If role-playing is unimportant to GW, then why have PvE at all?
Why skills matter in PvE
ChaoticCoyote
Blame the Monks
Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time.
Ashleigh McMahon
The problem I find is that PvP players complain about a skill and then that skill gets nerfed. Then PvE players complain that the skill in question has been nerfed and doesn't fit a build..and visa versa.
I guess it's kind of luck. You have to adapt to the changes. It's a war between PvE and PvP players-everyones never going to be happy with a change. Theres nothing wrong with that imo though, it helps balance the game and mixes it between PvP and PvE.
I also use stories for my PvE characters. Take my warrior for example. I've been part time RPing on him for the past 21 months of his life. I'd be shocked if GW changed so much that it destroyed my RP aspect of my character/s. I guess we will all need to adapt to that and other situations-if it ever happens.
Ashleigh
I guess it's kind of luck. You have to adapt to the changes. It's a war between PvE and PvP players-everyones never going to be happy with a change. Theres nothing wrong with that imo though, it helps balance the game and mixes it between PvP and PvE.
I also use stories for my PvE characters. Take my warrior for example. I've been part time RPing on him for the past 21 months of his life. I'd be shocked if GW changed so much that it destroyed my RP aspect of my character/s. I guess we will all need to adapt to that and other situations-if it ever happens.
Ashleigh
ChaoticCoyote
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Originally Posted by Blame the Monks
Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time.
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Playing PvE is about role-playing as much as it is about killing monsters.
Wrecking a skill/attribute line in PvE can ruin an existing character because the character can no longer be played as intended.
Savio
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Playing PvE is about role-playing as much as it is about killing monsters.
Wrecking a skill/attribute line in PvE can ruin an existing character because the character can no longer be played as intended. |
Ashleigh McMahon
Rt lord was one in my honest opinion. It ruined the whole aspect of being able to spam spirits at haste. Get interrupted? Your useless. I didn't see Rt lord as overpowered...it gave just enough time to be able to spam spirits. The reason it wasn't overpowered is because even with boon-your energy got demolished after 2-3 spams. Theres better RT skills out there now..but none that will fill that role.
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Originally Posted by Savio
Name a nerf that completely killed off a attribute line to the point where you couldn't play that line still. Despite major nerfs, most builds can be (and are) run in PvE in a weaker state. If by "played as intended" you mean "I took down thousands of monsters by myself with my insanely overpowered skills", that fits neither roleplaying nor PvE balance at all.
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Myria
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
In PvE, the experience is the goal. With the exception of farming, PvE is not about mini-maxing, it's about playing a character and experiencing a universe.
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| If role-playing is unimportant to GW, then why have PvE at all? |
FoxBat
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Originally Posted by Savio
Name a nerf that completely killed off a attribute line to the point where you couldn't play that line still.
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Suddenly players have to actually think a little when using Domination, again. Scary!
While there are a few instances of this, the OP's argument is usually disingenuous. Most (not all, but def. most) PvE whiners are running the most powerful build they can, abusing skills equally overpowered in PvE and PvP, and then complain when things change. They like to settle into someone else's min-maxed FotM and don't like to try new things out for themselves. Which as mentioned, has nothing to do with "roleplay" or "experience" just "I want mobs to drop like Diablo!"
Grubcat
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Originally Posted by Blame the Monks
Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time.
Having tried only a very little PvP, I would like to know why PvP balance is more important than PvE game experience? I realize that PvP players are competing against humans, opposed to predictable AI mobs, so their battles are going to be more challenging in that sense.
Why can't a skilled player use a "sub-optimal" character as easily in PvP as in PvE? Aren't there always players and teams that figure out builds to utilize the favored skills, and then teams that manage to come up with counters? Have there really been skills imbalance that have shut down PvP play? Yes, I know about IWAY- did people get annoyed with that because it worked and there were no viable counters, or because it was boring to play against?
FYI- this isn't meant to be sarcastic-maybe naive- I just wonder why the animosity from some PvPers towards PvE players not wanting their playing experience to be less than optimal(in our opinions). GW is made for both.
Originally Posted by Blame the Monks
Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time.
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
A typical PvP response that ignores my point.
Playing PvE is about role-playing as much as it is about killing monsters. Wrecking a skill/attribute line in PvE can ruin an existing character because the character can no longer be played as intended. |
Why can't a skilled player use a "sub-optimal" character as easily in PvP as in PvE? Aren't there always players and teams that figure out builds to utilize the favored skills, and then teams that manage to come up with counters? Have there really been skills imbalance that have shut down PvP play? Yes, I know about IWAY- did people get annoyed with that because it worked and there were no viable counters, or because it was boring to play against?
FYI- this isn't meant to be sarcastic-maybe naive- I just wonder why the animosity from some PvPers towards PvE players not wanting their playing experience to be less than optimal(in our opinions). GW is made for both.
Relambrien
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Originally Posted by Grubcat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blame the Monks Skills don't matter in PvE because you can easily win with a suboptimal character. Don't like running MM? Fine, your curse necro can do just fine with good heros and such. And if not, stop complaining. PvP balance is more important than you getting to play a certain skills all the time. Having tried only a very little PvP, I would like to know why PvP balance is more important than PvE game experience? I realize that PvP players are competing against humans, opposed to predictable AI mobs, so their battles are going to be more challenging in that sense. Why can't a skilled player use a "sub-optimal" character as easily in PvP as in PvE? Aren't there always players and teams that figure out builds to utilize the favored skills, and then teams that manage to come up with counters? Have there really been skills imbalance that have shut down PvP play? Yes, I know about IWAY- did people get annoyed with that because it worked and there were no viable counters, or because it was boring to play against? FYI- this isn't meant to be sarcastic-maybe naive- I just wonder why the animosity from some PvPers towards PvE players not wanting their playing experience to be less than optimal(in our opinions). GW is made for both. |
Thus, you are at a huge disadvantage by using a sub-optimal character in PvP, whereas in PvE since your skill level is infinitely greater than that of the monsters' AI (for the most part), your build makes little difference.
unienaule
Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.
Vermilion
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
If role-playing is unimportant to GW, then why have PvE at all?
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Skill changes are more important in PvP because the gametype as a whole needs balance. No one will complain when a skill is overpowered in PvE, will they? Of course not, it makes everything a lot easier. If they decided PvP wasn't the most affected by skill balance and catered more to PvE, I believe the PvP aspect would be deserted. PvP is dynamic..just think of it as a shark..if it doesn't keep moving, it dies.
Myria
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Originally Posted by Grubcat
Having tried only a very little PvP, I would like to know why PvP balance is more important than PvE game experience?
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Grubcat
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Originally Posted by unienaule
Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.
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Excellent point (and nicely stated).
Kuldebar Valiturus
Apples and Oranges...
There is nothing to be gained by comparing PvE and PvP, the whole issue is simply the reality of ANet having to work both sides of the fence and this results in a contentious mix of priorities and players have to adapt.
I agree with the OP's statement that character development in the PvE sense is negatively impacted by the constant flux of skill changes, but character development has never been a strong suit in Guild Wars.
ANet has indicated that the shifting sands of the skill bar is one of their ways to keep it fresh, but one could argue that stability isn't necessarily a negative attribute.
Perhaps "freshness" could come in the form of new content or fundamental design changes.
There is nothing to be gained by comparing PvE and PvP, the whole issue is simply the reality of ANet having to work both sides of the fence and this results in a contentious mix of priorities and players have to adapt.
I agree with the OP's statement that character development in the PvE sense is negatively impacted by the constant flux of skill changes, but character development has never been a strong suit in Guild Wars.
ANet has indicated that the shifting sands of the skill bar is one of their ways to keep it fresh, but one could argue that stability isn't necessarily a negative attribute.
Perhaps "freshness" could come in the form of new content or fundamental design changes.
Zehnchu
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Originally Posted by unienaule
Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.
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Ashleigh McMahon
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Originally Posted by Zehnchu
Searing Flames, Sandstorm, and all elites and *cough* A Factions skill Lighting Hammer used in DoA, from mobs of 24-28 are used against us.
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I do understand what you mean; but alot of the time when the monsters are winning is most probably human error...not kiting/moving out of AoE.
Ashleigh
Tiyuri
Your argument contradicts itself.
You said PVE isn't about optimal builds, it's about playing a role..
Then you complain about skill nerfs, because the build you're playing is no longer optimal.
It's like the nerf to rampage as one, so it's going to take you 10 seconds longer to kill the mobs now, does that stop you "playing the role" of a melee ranger? No.
Nerfing skills 99% of the time just changes the numbers involved, you can still use those same skills. So complaining about nerfing in relation to roleplaying is irrelevant, especially if you state that you could care less about running an optimal build.
The fact is, PVE players use what's overpowered as much as PVP players do, the difference is the PVE players don't have it used back against them, so the more overpowered the skills the better. So they whine when they lose their overpowered skill.
You said PVE isn't about optimal builds, it's about playing a role..
Then you complain about skill nerfs, because the build you're playing is no longer optimal.
It's like the nerf to rampage as one, so it's going to take you 10 seconds longer to kill the mobs now, does that stop you "playing the role" of a melee ranger? No.
Nerfing skills 99% of the time just changes the numbers involved, you can still use those same skills. So complaining about nerfing in relation to roleplaying is irrelevant, especially if you state that you could care less about running an optimal build.
The fact is, PVE players use what's overpowered as much as PVP players do, the difference is the PVE players don't have it used back against them, so the more overpowered the skills the better. So they whine when they lose their overpowered skill.
Ashleigh McMahon
Exactly what I meant by "It's a war between PvE and PvP'ers"
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Originally Posted by Tiyuri
Your argument contradicts itself.
The fact is, PVE players use what's overpowered as much as PVP players do, the difference is the PVE players don't have it used back against them, so the more overpowered the skills the better. So they whine when they lose their overpowered skill. |
Njaiguni Blaze
Come on guys. This is bs. Them so called skill "nerfs" have little to no effect and/or harm in PvE. People complain about a skill being tuned down, but I have seen some really great buffs to the sin, mesmer, rit and several other skills. Some warrior stances have a shorter duration and recharge now, WoH is buffed like hell and the list goes on. I have been playing for over 1600 hours of PvE and have never felt or thought of ANY reason to complain about a "nurf". The skills have always been altered, and I don't think PvE is ruined by a tonedown on SF or anything.
About this pet thing. The OP said that bringing a pet wasn't used for tactical purposes... You brought the pet, just because you had one. Well, that is the thing I hate most about players (no offense). Bringing a pet with just comform and charm is so stupid and useless imo. That are two skill slots wasted. And you know, beast mastery is good. You should try it. And the ritualist is FAR from useless. Ritual Lord isn't the only skill. I mean, Rits solo Arborstone, UW and the FoW. And further, they can be a key character in healing, protection and offense.
My last point is, most of PvE can even be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies. Try it, go pwn the mursaat in ThK without any of your own skills set. Will take some more time, but you'll succeed.
About this pet thing. The OP said that bringing a pet wasn't used for tactical purposes... You brought the pet, just because you had one. Well, that is the thing I hate most about players (no offense). Bringing a pet with just comform and charm is so stupid and useless imo. That are two skill slots wasted. And you know, beast mastery is good. You should try it. And the ritualist is FAR from useless. Ritual Lord isn't the only skill. I mean, Rits solo Arborstone, UW and the FoW. And further, they can be a key character in healing, protection and offense.
My last point is, most of PvE can even be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies. Try it, go pwn the mursaat in ThK without any of your own skills set. Will take some more time, but you'll succeed.
Amity and Truth
Don't be dissing PVE. They're paying half the server and that puts them into the same position as you. You're NOT a superior player if you just play PVP.
Myria
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| My last point is, most of PvE can even be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies. Try it, go pwn the mursaat in ThK without any of your own skills set. Will take some more time, but you'll succeed. |
Zinger314
The problem with Guild Wars is that PvE and PvP are "seperate, but equal." It's the core design philosophy; it can't change.
Guild Wars is both PvE or PvP, but never at the same time. PvErs have no right to complain about PvE nerfs, especially considering the fact that PvE is pathetically easy.
Guild Wars is both PvE or PvP, but never at the same time. PvErs have no right to complain about PvE nerfs, especially considering the fact that PvE is pathetically easy.
Njaiguni Blaze
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Originally Posted by Myria
With a little luck you could probably win a few games of just about any form of PvP with an empty bar and the rest of your team carrying you. So what?
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ChaoticCoyote
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Originally Posted by FoxBat
While there are a few instances of this, the OP's argument is usually disingenuous. Most (not all, but def. most) PvE whiners are running the most powerful build they can, abusing skills equally overpowered in PvE and PvP, and then complain when things change. They like to settle into someone else's min-maxed FotM and don't like to try new things out for themselves. Which as mentioned, has nothing to do with "roleplay" or "experience" just "I want mobs to drop like Diablo!"
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I don't run FotM builds. Ever. I don't even read them. My current Ranger runs a build widely criticised on GuildWiki for not being mini-maxed; my necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse; my Dervish is focused on Lyssa and high-energy attacks, and doesn't even *know* avatars of Grenth, Balthazar, or Melandru.
And I know quite a few other PvE players, including most members of my guild, who do not run FotM.
If GuildWars doesn't care about role-playing, they should stop calling it a role-playing game.
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
Skills don't really matter in PvE in my opinion. Any skill can be used or left out in PvE. And it's not the luck, it's more that PvE is rather easy (with the exception of a few areas) and can be done with crap skillsets or with uber skillsets.
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As I said in my original post: Many PvE players choose their skills based on entertainment and riole-playign values, not mini-maxing.
Edit By Ashleigh McMahon- Please use the edit button in future to refrain from double posting. Thanks
martialis
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| I stopped playing my Ritualist a while back, after skill changes rendered my favorite builds unenjoyable in PvE. I had a specific mental image of who the character was and what her motivations were |
Njaiguni Blaze
So basically, you're saying you don't play FotM builds, but you do get pissed when they "nurf" a skill which caused these FotM builds... I'm confused.
Kook~NBK~
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
Skills don't really matter in PvE in my opinion. Any skill can be used or left out in PvE. And it's not the luck, it's more that PvE is rather easy (with the exception of a few areas) and can be done with crap skillsets or with uber skillsets.
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Blame the Monks
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
If GuildWars doesn't care about role-playing, they should stop calling it a role-playing game.
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However, since my credibility has been called out, I play both PvE and PvP at a high level. I have earned KoaBD and play for a top 5 gvg guild. I enjoy both types of play, and I still stick to my assertion that for PvE purposes skill balance is almost completely irrelevant.
The challenge in PvE is huge mob size, player stupidity, and insane cheap damage buffs or level design (bosses, doa, etc). The roleplaying element of GW has nothing to do with the way a given skill is balanced -- it is all about the storyline, who you play with, and what you imagine. Nerfing ritual lord doesn't change any of that. And you can always play serpent's quickness + attuned.
Balance for PvP, regardless of the implications on PvE.
Zinger314
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
To generalize PvE players like that is no better than someone who claims that all PvP players are arrogant emote-flashers.
I don't run FotM builds. Ever. I don't even read them. My current Ranger runs a build widely criticised on GuildWiki for not being mini-maxed; my necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse; my Dervish is focused on Lyssa and high-energy attacks, and doesn't even *know* avatars of Grenth, Balthazar, or Melandru. And I know quite a few other PvE players, including most members of my guild, who do not run FotM. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
If GuildWars doesn't care about role-playing, they should stop calling it a role-playing game.
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Skills matter when they relate to the personality of the character.
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Guild Wars is completely counter-intuitive to true "role-playing." The lore is undeveloped and inconsistant, and there's no indivituality.
On topic, the PvP aspect of Guild Wars is not the same as the RP aspect, obviously. Character development is non-existant, and there is obviously no lore.
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Originally Posted by Blame the Monks
They don't. GW coined the term "competitive online multiplayer game" -- the difference being "competitive," IE, PvP.
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Of course, that was before Prophecies, when PvE was actually good.
Both versions are still politically incorrect.
EDIT: Apparently according to the post below me. it's both. Hmm. In that case, it's redundant.
Skuld
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
To generalize PvE players like that is no better than someone who claims that all PvP players are arrogant emote-flashers.
I don't run FotM builds. Ever. I don't even read them. My current Ranger runs a build widely criticised on GuildWiki for not being mini-maxed; my necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse; my Dervish is focused on Lyssa and high-energy attacks, and doesn't even *know* avatars of Grenth, Balthazar, or Melandru. And I know quite a few other PvE players, including most members of my guild, who do not run FotM. If GuildWars doesn't care about role-playing, they should stop calling it a role-playing game. |
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Guild Wars is the name of a series of Competitive/Cooperative Online Role-Playing Games (CORPG) created by ArenaNet.
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Coloneh
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Originally Posted by Savio
Name a nerf that completely killed off a attribute line to the point where you couldn't play that line still.
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but i tend to disagree with the OP on a few things. I dont see GW as being about "role playing" i would stick with D&D if i wanted role playing. but but PvP players really need to pull their heads out of their asses, you cant use just anything in PvE. and dont bring up the argument "i can beat abadon with frenzy as my only skill", because the rest of your team has a skillbar and could do it without you. A-net needs to take a little more care about their changes, and have regular updates, like any other game.
Zinger314
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Originally Posted by Coloneh
inspiration magic.
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MegaMouse
First I PVP only when my guild needs me as a backup in their group. My main love is and always will be PVE. When Guild Wars original came out I thought that it would be more PVE orientated, which for a time it was. But it shifted focus when Factions came out to PVP. I hardly go into cantha mainly because I dislike grinding for points that I will never use again. And Elona is worse because to continue the story line and even get to certian areas you must grind to get to R8 in the Sunspear title track, not my idea of fun at especialy since it cannot be maxed by a non-Elonian.
On skill sets, that was the whole original idea of the game, not to see who could just own each other and then have the loser whine about beign overpowered, but in several gaming magazines and even a few interviews the origial idea of Guild Warswas who could use the limited skills they were given to their fullest. Due to a rather large number of nerfs several classes have been rendered useless. This game should be rolled back and the skills put back to where they originaly were so that everyone can enjoy it to its fullest once again. The only changes that should have been made were to those skills that truly were broken and not the ones that were working as the designers originaly intended. I would love to see someone try to take on the Mursaat without any skills on their bar at all. I say it is impossible if the group refuses to keep the one idiot up and running.
Like I have said in several other posts, the nerf bat needs put away for good, let the PVP use the skills as they were meant to be, and just try to find something that can counter it. This game is and was all about skill not about how much a whiny group can get nerfed because they do not want to find counters to skills that continue to kick their butts.
Mega Mouse
On skill sets, that was the whole original idea of the game, not to see who could just own each other and then have the loser whine about beign overpowered, but in several gaming magazines and even a few interviews the origial idea of Guild Warswas who could use the limited skills they were given to their fullest. Due to a rather large number of nerfs several classes have been rendered useless. This game should be rolled back and the skills put back to where they originaly were so that everyone can enjoy it to its fullest once again. The only changes that should have been made were to those skills that truly were broken and not the ones that were working as the designers originaly intended. I would love to see someone try to take on the Mursaat without any skills on their bar at all. I say it is impossible if the group refuses to keep the one idiot up and running.
Like I have said in several other posts, the nerf bat needs put away for good, let the PVP use the skills as they were meant to be, and just try to find something that can counter it. This game is and was all about skill not about how much a whiny group can get nerfed because they do not want to find counters to skills that continue to kick their butts.
Mega Mouse
Zinger314
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Originally Posted by MegaMouse
Like I have said in several other posts, the nerf bat needs put away for good, let the PVP use the skills as they were meant to be, and just try to find something that can counter it. This game is and was all about skill not about how much a whiny group can get nerfed because they do not want to find counters to skills that continue to kick their butts.
Mega Mouse |
Avatar of Grenth can be countered by conditions, hexes, and Weapon of Warding. Does that make it not overpowered. HELL NO.
Burst Cancel
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Skills matter when they relate to the personality of the character.
As I said in my original post: Many PvE players choose their skills based on entertainment and riole-playign values, not mini-maxing. |
Balance is critical in PvP, anyone who doesn't understand this has never done anything meaningfully competitive in their life, or at least has never thought about the nature of said competition. When you are competing against others, you will use every advantage you can possibly get, so if some subset of skills are strictly better than other skills, only that subset of skills will be played, and the competitive arena stagnates. It's ridiculous to say, "well, if PvE players can intentionally underpower themselves, PvP players can too" - they *can*, but they have every reason in the world *not to*.
It isn't a matter of PvE vs. PvP or hating, or even elitism. It's a matter of skill balance mattering far, far more in PvP than in PvE.
FoxBat
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
To generalize PvE players like that is no better than someone who claims that all PvP players are arrogant emote-flashers.
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| I don't run FotM builds. Ever. I don't even read them. My current Ranger runs a build widely criticised on GuildWiki for not being mini-maxed; my necro runs with a pet even though she isn't using it as a corpse; my Dervish is focused on Lyssa and high-energy attacks, and doesn't even *know* avatars of Grenth, Balthazar, or Melandru. |
The nerfs hardly seem to matter for the good builds even... searing flames is still the best nuke in groups, sandstorm recharge doesn't matter when it and an echo are enough to kill anything anyway. Bloodsong nerf doesn't matter because spirit spammers suck in most PvE, even RaO is still useable because you don't have to maintain it 24/7 between mob fights like a PvP player does. You might have a point if your weak motivation healer went to worse to combat zergway or paragonway (and I don't think this is the best solution to that issue), but that seems to be the only nerf of the ones people are complaining about. So a lot of the nerfs don't even effect dominant PvE builds significantly and yet people still complain about them on mere principle.
It's also noteable that in every update, Anet has buffed more skills than nerfed, so it's generally people very stuck in playing a specific way who don't want to adapt to the new options opened up to them that have issues. I spend all my PvE money on skills instead of armor, trying out different things, so I like when new skill options are opened up just as much as the old dominant ones are weakened (I do care about min/maxing somewhat in PvE, and it's much more fun when you have choices instead of a narrow set of useful skills)
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by unienaule
Ok. Here's how it works. The reason PvE people seem to only complain that skills shouldn't get nerfed is because the broken/overpowered skills are NEVER USED AGAINST THEM (the PvEers) EFFECTIVELY IF AT ALL. If the monster AI took new builds and exploited the current skill changes like players do, PvEers would demand the same nerfs that PvPers do.
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* SF nuker (aka Djinns)
* Sandstorm nuker (aka Crags)
* Iway warrior (aka white mantle)
* Ranger Spikers (Aviacra ranger groups)
* Touchers (Stygian something)
Aditionally, most l28 monsters use normal skills with their attribute advantage in way that makes em overpowered so much that it aint pretty.
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All theese were using said builds pretty effectivelly and with monster level advantages quite deadly.
Yet you saw next to noone complaining about PvEing versus em.
Zehnchu
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Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze
My last point is, most of PvE can even be done with an empty skill bar and some heroes and henchies.
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The Ernada
I read the thread and still have yet to see how role playing has anything to do with complaining about nerfs. How does the strength/weakness of a skill affect your roleplaying? I remember as a kid swinging a wooden sword that did only slight damage to my brother's face and still had fun "roleplaying" Yes, that's an extreme case but you guys are an extreme lot.
No skill has been destroyed to the point in PVE where you can't use it and STILL roleplay. And how about this? How about roleplaying a character who somehow got injured and is now a bit weaker but fighting with more strategy to compensate? Yes, it all sounds silly but so is blaming nerfs hampering your ability to RP.
And really, GW is horrible for roleplaying. I've played a lot of other MMO's that were far far better for it. And I enjoyed it too. So don't try to label me as a purely PVP player shoving around his elitism on the "PVE noobs" It really is just about caring about the balance and a little bit of a nerf hardly matters much in PVE. That may sound elitist but it's a fact. And the fact is that PVE is designed so that everyone can beat it. There is no hard mode so it's stuck on easy mode.
No skill has been destroyed to the point in PVE where you can't use it and STILL roleplay. And how about this? How about roleplaying a character who somehow got injured and is now a bit weaker but fighting with more strategy to compensate? Yes, it all sounds silly but so is blaming nerfs hampering your ability to RP.
And really, GW is horrible for roleplaying. I've played a lot of other MMO's that were far far better for it. And I enjoyed it too. So don't try to label me as a purely PVP player shoving around his elitism on the "PVE noobs" It really is just about caring about the balance and a little bit of a nerf hardly matters much in PVE. That may sound elitist but it's a fact. And the fact is that PVE is designed so that everyone can beat it. There is no hard mode so it's stuck on easy mode.