Why the use of henches and Heroes puts us miles ahead of PUG dependant MMOs (eg WoW)

Lots of people make threads basically calling Henches and Heroes and blaming them for the downfall of GWs and PUGs and basically blame the end of the world on AI.

But the truth (from my experience) is that the use AI is what makes GWs miles ahead of alternative MMO/RPG games like WoW.

WoW and other MMOs are PUG dependant and dont have AI to help. You have to team up with humans come a certain point or you cant do quests and move on.

Yes this obviously incourages PUGing and interaction, but it doesnt aid in the gameplay at all. I've been playing WoW for about a month now and im at lvl24, and 90% of my time has been soloing.

Not from lack of trying to form PUGs or join others.

I've seen groups or individuals killing the same creatures or bosses I need and ive invited them to join me, nicely wisped them to ask or stood right infront of them and posted "can I join please?"....

....and 90% of the time you get ignored. You can spend hours if not days wondering around, unable to do quests because you quite simple cannot form a PUG to do them.

And its also due to a lack of other players being in the area to help. This has made a relatively amazing game, no fun to play. I actually miss having AI to just pick up and use and take with me.

And this is what alot of you want GWs to be like? This would be the result if we removed AI from the game!

Henches and Heroes are a god send in GWs and an amazing asset to players who cant find PUGs, or dont have Guilds to join. AI in WoW (although unfeasable because its all one instance) would fix alot of problems in my view.

(NOTE: I know thats unrealistic to have AI in WoW, im purely speculating)

So can we not be greatfull for having heroes and Henches?

I am personally greatfull about them yes, if i want to go do a mission or capture a skill i don't need to be dependent on other people to do so, i can spend 20 seconds grabbing hench and I'm off to capture my skill. I cant even imagine how long it would take to get around guild wars without henchmen, doesn't even sound realistic.

I, personally, believe you're making a bad comparison. The reason henchies and heroes are so important in GW is because it's a completely instanced game. In some other games (like WoW), there are actually helpful people (as there are in GW) that will come by and help out if they see you are in trouble. I've seen it and I've done it. This isn't possible in an instanced game as you are out there by yourself. There have been times in other games where I've come across someone getting their ass smashed by some monster or what-not and I just stop and help them out until its over, then move on. You're comparing apples and oranges. Since you mentioned WoW, you really only have that problem in the dungeons that are instanced. Yeah sure there's assholes sometimes that'll gank you or just sit there and watch, but I've noticed more times than not that people will help you if you really need it, even if you don't ask for it. In fact, you don't even have to join a PUG to help or get helped. Help can be providing without even being in the same team (if someone's really helping you then they are doing it to help, not to get the loot or XP).

With an instanced game, yeah you really do need henchies because nobody is going to come along and help you. The game isn't made that way. It's just a different kind of game than the others, including the henchies and heroes.

without hencies and hero gw will be death

try to find a group on faction ...

You've posted many threads on this same subject, but in short...

IMO, Heroes were originally intended to help players "fill in gaps" in PuGs or other multiplayer groups, like you've said above. Much of what you are seeing in the game is people using Heroes to completely supplant other players, however. You can see that attitude in many of the "I wouldn't PuG if you paid me" threads on this site.

Heroes are a "godsend" for players who simply don't want to play with other players. Unfortunately, there are many people who would rather play a multiplayer game, and heroes have hurt their ability to do so.

You are right I cant deny it. When ive been in a PUG in WoW its fun and people do come along and help you most times.

But its times when you see a pre-made group doing the boss you need and you can ask about 10 times and they just seem to ignore you.

I just seem to experience that more then the positive sides. Admittadly im in a low end area and im sure high-end ones are alot more full, but still.

How can you make that claim when I quite clearly said in my OP that I try to form PUGs and it doesnt work.

I want to play with others, but unfortunately from my experience in both games, its never easy to do or it ends up frustrating.

This is why im so pro-AI all the time.

It's a self-aggravating problem, that's why. In short...

1. With the expanding GW universe, the player base is getting more spread out, making it harder to find other players to play with.

2. Because heroes are available, players that normally would group with other simply take the heroes instead.

3. Because of that, even fewer players are available to group with.

4. Because there are even fewer players, players are almost forced to take heroes.

5. Rinse, lather, repeat.

That's the problem that the multi-player is facing today. That is why it is really hard to compare WoW to GW, as WoW has stuck to its multiplayer roots (for better or worse), while GW is gravitating towards a single player PvE game.

Halle-freakin-lujah, it's nice to see somebody that gets it. As much as anything, the presence of heroes and henchies is what keeps me playing Guild Wars. It lets me play with a few friends and fill out the party readily to do anything we'd want to do. If that couldn't be done, I'd just go back to non-MMO RPG's.

Let me make this clear to the "we must force people to PUG" crowd. Implementing some method that punishes play with henchies/heroes or otherwise encourages/forces us to play with you won't cause us to play with you, it'll cause us to leave the game. Get it? Frankly I think all the people whining about the lack of good PUGs should just form a guild and play with each other, there certainly seem to be enough of them.

You and a handful of others do not make 'lots of people.'
The last time I saw a thread that had anything to do with heroes it was started by the OP. Your beating a dead horse that you seem to 'really' like to beat on, my only question is why?
Guess once you get the KOABD title there is little left to do but pontificate on the various aspects of the game. How about picking a new topic tho. Something a little more thought provoking than the lame old heroes debate.
Just a thought.

Pretty much. Ive not been ingame for about a month. FYI though I actually started that thread because of something I read in another thread.

It wasnt just me starting it randomly.

Aye, this topic has been done many times and doesnt need another thread about it. Could a mod close this topic please?

[QUOTE]hi JET

sorry to keep being the sour disagreeable note but *i disagree*

there was an interview (if someone can find link please post it) that stated that *GW could also be considered a single player RPG played online with the OPTION of playing with friends if you want to*.

to confirm that early statement is this straight from the box i got on April 26 2005

heroes are only improved henchies and fixing the henchies so everybody could use them was asked for from day one.

if you could have *FUN* with the average PUG most people would PUG.

the people who have grabbed heroes like lifesavers are mostly people who would PUG if it were fun.

the people who grab heroes the hardest are the ones who WANTED to pug but kept getting burned by the jerks.

those people are not *antisocial* they simply have been driven out by the *so called community*

They're also a godsend for every class that is not a Warrior, Monk, Ele or MM. PuGers have killed PuGs. I want to play as my mesmer. No luck. Assassin? Nada. Smiter? Not a chance. Non-MM Necro. Get lost! Rit? Take a hike!

I don't want to spend an hour waiting for a PuG to take pity on my mesmer. I could finish a couple missions in that time. If PuGs were a lot more flexible in who they PuGed with, PuGers wouldn't be able to complain about others going out with henchies/heroes.

Well, heroes (and not hench) ARE directly responsible for the downfall of the PUG. Whether or not this is a good thing is subjective.

In the old days, the average player was more likely to succeed with a PUG than with hench, so everyone pugged.

Now, heroes are so good that the average player is more likely to succeed by staying away from PUG's.

I prefered the old way. If you wanted to be antisocial you could, but the price was you had to tolerate a tougher challenge.

I've henched/solo'd most of Prophecies, Factions and as of now the early stages of Nightfall. I'm one of those rare breed of players who actually takes time to complete things, I actually still haven't completed any of the three installments even though I've hit end-game Prophecies with the only "help" in form of PUGS or "guildies" coming in Aurora Glades bonus and one or two of the Desert missions.

I like Henchmen even if the monks are stupid enough to heal you when you're already dead, I LOVE heroes, they make the whole experience easier. Thing is, I play slowly I explore, I like to complete certain areas before moving on (My re-started W/R in Prophecies, and thus the reason I haven't finished it yet, is still over in the Wilds because I want to map out the area with him) the problem with PUGS and I've noticed now with certain guilds is they're all focused on speed playing, rushing around and completing the game within two minutes.

These people take away enjoyment from the game, in the same way a random warrior runs off aggroing everything and anything during a critical part of a mission. To further the point, henchmen are more reliable, you only have yourself or shoddy AI to blame (yes it's crap AI but you can learn how to use it to your advantage, PUGS are a quick gank through and only friends happen to be around long enough to "learn" each other's playing styles) if you mess up and lose a mission/bonus/quest/die.

Perhaps it's just my bad experiences, I have been more offput on teaming with "humans" ever since I took my 55hp monk into a PVP practice match to fight these two w/mo's, I won, one of the guys switches to his Necro and I still won (work it out) and other experiences such as having people take my quest goals and ending up getting them killed in the next able bodied mob.

In short I guess I'm saying henchies/heros > humans, they're predictable, methodical, tangiable, they don't demand rez's, heals or rush through the game in two hours nor do they whine (as I've just probably done! =D)

-2 cents

^_^

Heroes may or may not be the downfall of pugs. But, for some people who are fed up with bad pugs (immaturity, obsceneties, name calling, lack of social skills, etc..), heroes are a godsend, and we want more of them.

I would like to add that I pugged through all of Prophecies. Some great pugs are found towards the later part of the game. But, after awhile, your patience and tolerance metter go down to zilch and now I resort mostly to heroes and henches.

Well spoken...

Please not another Hero/Henchies vs. PUG thread.
The horse is glue now.

Loviatar's post is spot on. The Guild Wars Retail Box states very clearly that playing solo in Guild Wars is supposed to be every individual player's choice. If 99% of players happen to be making that choice to play solo, then that's great, they are supposed to be allowed to.

Forced-PUG advocates' arguments pretty much don't have a leg to stand on for that reason.

The Nice thing about HERO's and AI henchmen is that I can cast MENDING on my whammo and no one cares!

Fact is I test all kinds of builds during quests and no one cares.

THANK GOD! for HERO's..

I love to PUG. I find the game much more enjoyable when I'm questing with humans than all alone with my heroes and henchies. I've gotten my share of bad PUGs just like everyone else here, but I think on average I've gotten more good PUGs than bad. And like I've stated before, even the bad ones are good for some entertaining stories later.

Despite this, I don't think I'll ever advocate getting rid of the henchies. While that might make it easier for me to find a PUG, it would also ruin the game for many folks that don't feel the same way I do. Also I don't especially want to team up with someone who really doesn't want to team with me.

The only advice I would give is this. If you are someone who really doesn't care whether you complete this quest with a PUG or henchies, then take a few minutes looking for a PUG in town before heading straight to the henchies.