Why do PUG groups have to be l33t in none-elite areas?

This is more just a general question.

I appreciate that in elite areas such as FOW, UW, SF and DOA you need elite groups to handle the mobs and the particular creatures and situations. So this question focuses around none-elite areas which can be done using heroes and hences.

In which case...

....for 95% of the game you dont need a l33t PUG group to accomplish the mission or quest, or task at hand.

So why is it that, when your faced with a relatively easy task, do PUG creatures put more priority on creating a PUG with the "perfect build" and the "exact skill useage" then they do just having fun.

I think the fun aspect of PUGs have been pushed to one side to give more priority on creating the best, and most elite PUG in the game. It doesnt matter whether your doing a really easy mission or an elite instance, the PUG has to be the best of the best.

In threads where you debate the use of Heroes and Henches, alot of anti-AI protesters will argue...

...The good players resort to using henches instead of joining PUGs because they can accomplish what they want better, leaving only the noobs behind asking to join. So no one PUGs.

So what?

So many people complain the PUG numbers are falling, but also complain that inexperienced players want to join PUGs. You cant have it both ways.

To the PUG creatures out there, who always aim for the "best of the best" regardless of the task, explain to me why its more important to have a top-notch group as apose to just getting a group of people together to have fun?

Do you not think that if we stopped pushing noob players to one side and allowed them to join in, we would be using a valuable resource to keep PUGs going?

It is just a game afterall, and its about having fun.

[edit]

For those who are a tad confused. I have nothing against someone joining a PUG, and the leader making a polite question of "are you a healing monk, if not, can you be?". There are times even in non-elite areas that you need healers or MMs.

What I object to is that leader then demanding they be a healer or a MM or a nuker. It may be they have never used that build and dont have the experience. It may be their current build is perfectly fine and would do the job.

I also dont have anything against someone seeing a monk in their party using fire spells and thinking "yikes", and then making a polite comment to them suggesting they use a different build as thats obviously not effective.

How-ever that build (which we think is weird) might work fine for them, but we can still offer suggestions and perhaps educate them. But we DONT chuck them just because we dont like what we see, especially if its a none-elite area that any party combination could finish.

It is simply to reduce the risk of failure...taking the "experimental" side out of a PuG helps compensate for the uncertainty of playing with those you don't know. There's nothing about experience to do with it - it is simply that people get comfortable with how certain roles should perform.

I personally disagree with that approach - PuGing is supposed to be fun and for encountering the unexpected, which is why I normally refuse to call out my skillbar other than in the very end game missions.

That is why i'm picking my partymembers carefully. I want to have fun. I don't mind newbies but I can't stand noobs and thus i'm picking my partymembers as if I were going for an elite area.

Playing with guildies > PUGs, you can play whatever you want, generally speaking, and be accepted. Sure there are areas/missions where it is good to have a MM and perhaps 2 monks, but otherwise any combo works.

When we do take on some PUG players to fill out an otherwise all-guild team there generally is not any discrimination - mesmer, assassin, whatever are welcome. I'd say now though the odds are higher that we'd add heroes before inviting PUGs, it is simply safer.

Because my idea of fun is not watching a monk using mending and spamming healing breeze, a Warrior aggroing every single mob in the area and a Elementalist spamming flare, if that's your idea of fun, then good for you, but I'm sure 80% of people that post here won't find that fun.

For the same reason people get to a new outpost and immediately spam "LFG masters no noobs"... because they're retarded.

I think you missed the OP's point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a monk spamming Healing Breeze and mending or an Elementalist spamming Flare in the non-elite sections of the game. (The warrior aggro'ing everything is still unacceptable though).

When your Monk or Elementalist starts the game he has very few skills. Flare and Healing Breeze are included in the "starter skills" package and they are meant to be used in the starter areas. My monk has travelled as far as the Gates of Kryta mission and, yes, she has Healing Breeze on her skill bar. It works very well in these early missions. I'm sure that by the time I'm ready to take her into the fow or Thunderhead Keep, I will have replaced these skills with others, but for now I don't have any Elites and Healing Breeze is one of the best healing skills I own. BTW, my monk's second profession is Ele and flare also works very well against those Ice Golems.

The OP isn't arguing that these skills should be accepted in a FOW PUG, but really who cares what's on your skill bar at Fort Ranik?? Unless you're taking along some incompetent 8 year olds, you should be able to finish the mission with just about any build.

well i dont find it fun having every single pug think a monk HAS TO HEAL! i only pug as a smiting monk now, and rarley show build and only accept blind invites. fear me.

So everyone who picks his team rather than selecting it is retarded? Way to go.

If i see a monk using flare I would instaragequit, sorry but I don't want to put up with noobs using terrible skills.

Unless its a "farming" type area (UW,FOW) we take heros......at least my guild does...which is funny because we are called pug...

Theres a difrence between looking for competent team memebers and looking for a 'no noobs' party. I know plenty of 'noobs' that are competent and could help in a pug greatly.

Maybe you should have read the entire post before flaming it. I think you are exactly the type of arrogant player that the OP is complaining about. You're saying that a Monk/Ele who uses fire spells against Ice monsters in a low level mission is a Noob?

Or did you expect all your team members to have gotten runs to the elite areas in order to pick up all the best skills before even attempting these low level missions?

Oh please, ragequit then. I think the team would be better off without you. These missions are easy to finish with 1 less person on the team.

I actually wasnt trying to suggest that we dont comment on other team members builds at all. Its ok to ask someone what build they are, (i.e healer, or MM or nuker) and to then ask politely if they could be something else.

Aslong as we're polite and we dont kick someone simply because they cant, or wouldnt want to change. Especially in an area that isnt dependant on having the perfect team.

The game is about education and learning, it doesnt hurt to offer advice to a monk who might be shooting fire and saying "you might want to avoid high energy spells".

Aslong as you not rude about it and start spamming someone with "noob" and kick them.

That was part of my point.

That was at TheRaven too!

You're not very bright, he was talking about in the start of Proph. At that point, as a monk, you hardly have any skills needed to fill up your bar with say a full healing lineup. Furthermore, at that point in the game having a completely dedicated healer is probably overkill. By Speccing a little into fire and taking flare he can probably kill an ice golem in 4 hits by himself. Now, early in the game, flare spaming is actually fairly effective since you can't use the arguement that conjure flame does more damage :P

Really, you're part of the problem. Normally we allow monks to take a utility skill, so why not have flare as the utility? If by killing that ice golem in 4 flares, preventing it from using deep freeze on your party, you think that monk is being horrible, then you *really* have a lot to learn.

Of course, if I saw a monk say...past the shiverpeaks...using flare, I'd probably wonder what they were doing. Of course, I wouldn't ragequit, because that's completely rude to the rest of your party. I'd rather have him taking flare and spamming it when healing isn't needed than say...using bane signet....

IMO in certain area or mission you do need people that know how to play the game, and know how to play the right build in order to get pass it or get the master/bonus reward.

Raven is right, nobody care if monk cast firestorm & spam HB in fort ranik but when that happen in somewhere like thunderhead keep you know, you're in troble.

2 Hits actually.

This was my point precisely. I agree with Fish to an extent when he says that a monk should not be spamming high energy fire spells, but in these low-level missions, I almost never have to heal anyone. So I either stand back and twiddle my thumbs, spam healing breeze on someone who dipped to "GASP" 75% health, or do a little fire damage myself.

I can see where this is becoming an issue. I've been in groups for simple missions where everyone is being asked to list all their skills and all the skills of their heroes (if taking them). That's time consuming enough, but then you can get into the debate as to how to "fix" someone's build. I've even seen it extend to getting everyone to list their weps.


I tend to drop out of a group like that for several reasons:

Pre-mission bickering usually leads to in-mission bickering

This time-consuming process often leads to others dropping out and a whole new slew of build listing/debating as others join

In the time it takes to figure out if everyone's skills are set OK, you could have run the mission or at least got off to a good start

I'm just as happy to roll the dice with a group because even if everyone has that "perfect build" it doesn't mean that they know how to use it.

I'm a grumpy old man who doesn't want to hear a 15 year old lecture on how important the skill "inspired hex" is to the mission

Just my 2¢

"Using PuGs means I might fail."

What is wrong with the occasional failure? People don't want to fail at anything. If you don't fail now and then and ALWAYS WIN, you are not being challenged enough. No challenges lead to boredom.

Very true!

Lots of these people are so accustomed to failure that they want to do everything they can to prevent it. Many of them are elitist snobs with a "my way or the highway" mentality.

I think you're right, to a large degree. But there are still plenty of people who know that going the PUG route can provide more fun than doing things any other way. (aside from guild groups, of course)

Yeah, that's the arguement. It's a poor one, but there it is. It's ridiculous to assume that someone is labeling themselves "n00b" every time they type "LFG." Many of us actually like the challenge of doing missions with PUGs

QFT

This is where the cookie-cutter mentality kicks in. In most cases, there are any number of ways to rip through a mission, and too many people don't realize that. However, there are some instances where having a particular skill makes things much easier to do. Winter in the Fire Island area is a godsend. Spoil Victor when facing Shiro in Nightfall is another example.

"N00b" players or "Newbie" players? Either way, it can be hard to tell beforehand what kind of player you'll be dealing with beforehand. It doesn't bother me in the least to play with newbies who want to learn and get better at their profession. I do not enjoy playing with n00bs. These are the people who have no clue what they're doing, won't listen, and run off and do their own thing. If I get someone in my group who acts the n00b before starting the mission, they get one chance to straighten up or they're gone. It's not fair to the party members who do want to work as a team to have to deal with that stuff.

95%? you need good group for more like of 60% of game, because some stuff is not "elite" it does not mean that it is trivial.

Why would anyone willingly put up with failure at worst or unncenesary deaths, slowdowns and stuff like failing bonus, when he can choose companions that ensure him flawess mission.

Simply said, i expect L20 character to know what he is clueless - either having standart build or build that is obviously not sucky.

Having had the pleasure of pugging a bit again recently... here are my comments.

The game has developed with the new chapters, and when players need to progress their main characters through the latest campaign to get access to some area where an important elite skill is hidden, they want to make progress. It's become more of a long road to round a character out. It's fine to fumble around when you're killing time and have no real interest in progress, but fewer and fewer people are in that position (there is always the Xth pve char to get pvp-ready etc).

Yes, asking politely is nice. It doesn't help when PUGing though (neither does being rude, though). Fact is that the average player level in even the very last elonian missions is appaling. Mending + Healing hands Wammo's are STILL a common sight after almost 2 years and 3 chapters, and the worst thing is that those are often actually the more dependable members of the PUG. Most annoying though is the crappy attitude most players seem to have. When they hide their skillbar or ignore (polite) requests for changes to it. Their skillbar is sacred, no matter how inane, and suggesting a change is a personal insult. Impatience is also common. Rather than to discuss any sort of team setup, they do the "gogogo" thing. They're the first to rage when things go bad, usually when you still have a good chance to make it in the end. It'd be laughable if it weren't so sad. The level is such that a common mission in Kourna is a major hurdle... a far cry from a 'needs a perfect build area'.

Also, before someone comes in and yells of 'elitism'; there is no problem with a player willing to work with the team being a 'newb'. You can have 1K armor, only a minor vigor and no elites on your bar, and still be alright in the team. It's been a long time since I met someone like that though. Mostly it's walking disasters in 15K.

LOL, you know this whole discussion reminds me of the experience my monk had at Fort Ranik. I've done the mission before many times with my Warrior, Ranger, Necro, etc, but this was the first time my monk was attempting it and I just needed to get thru the mission and onto more important areas of the game.

So my Level 11 monk arrives in town and starts typing....
"Monk LFG for mission"

A warrior joined me and immediately starts spamming....
"GO!!! GO!!!"
"Go already!!!!"
"Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Start the freaking mission!!!!!!!!"
I politely pointed out that we only had 2/4 people and I wasn't ready to go yet.
His response....
"Go already!!!!"
"Go!!!!!!!!"
"Stupid %^# noob!!!!!"
"Go!!! You don't need 4 people"
"Go you moron!!!"
"GoGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO. YOU DON'T NEEED 4 MORE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

You know. He was right. I kicked him and went and soloed the mission very easily.

Meh.... I don't bother with PuGs if I can help it.... I definitely don't go near anyone using ridiculous abbreviations.
If I see someone making a reasonably intelligent comment in the chat-window though I might approach them..... but its rare that I wouldn't rather do something with AI...


When it comes to teaming up with people however... The first thing I will typically admit (if I am taking that route) is that I'm A/Ning as a Pseudo-SS ... and if anyone has any problem with an Assassin playing Necro then they don't need to have anything to do with me. Some people don't mind, while other people do.... but I consider it polite at least to admit beforehand that I'm not doing things conventionally.... (and its just as well that some people can accept that an Assassin might actually be a competant SS-user). I certainly don't demand perfect groups in return. All I ask is that they accept me for whatever build I'm using, accept that my Heroes stick with me wherever I go (almost) .... and that they're at least competant at whatever they choose to do with their own character.

O'course if one of them is an SS Necro then I'll switch over to another build.... like ID+ or something more conventionally Assassin...

Excellent post, Raven, (and the OP)The poster following Ravens' post said they would instaragequit if they saw a monk using flare. Maybe that has happened to that monk a lot and no one bothered to say anything constructive so that's why he/she still uses flare. On the other hand, flare does work well in the beginning game, and as long as it works, why not use it?

Everyone has their own style of playing, and enjoying the game. Especially in the early parts, why not let them play what they are comfortable with? They will either improve and move to higher levels, and learn to adapt their builds to what is needed, or they won't. For me, I learn best when I experiment with skills and not when I'm told what I should be playing, with 5 new skills out of eight. And this is why I have not dared to try PvP yet! Working up my courage to get my feet wet.

PS. Raven- I seem to be following you around the forum today and admiring your well written posts.

Part of it is a desire to get masters on certain missions. People may have completed the mission several times but missed masters because of some shortcoming in the group.

I am doing a very specialized thing right now with one of my characters (going after the charr in pre-searing to get to level 16) and I need to go with a second person regardless until I can solo. I find that ele's, rangers, necros, and mesmers who are beyond level 10 do better here than another monk or a low level warrior. So I reject a lot of people who want to go with me because they don't have the ability (based on my experience) to be as successful. Much of the rejection comes from a desire to be successful on something that you have done before for a very specific goal.

Hmm I remember a time when me and my guild was doing Ice Caves for arond the 5th time for someone new in the guild and we picked up a pug monk. Well partway into the mission I notice he is using flare, firestorm and a few other fire spells while our guildy monk was on TS and asking why he was running out of energy so fast trying to keep everyone up. I then responded "Well it looks like the other monk is an Ele atm." We didnt rage quit even with it very early on in the mission and ended up finishing the mission and bonus. Oh and so you know we was a balanced group with two real fire Ele's so there was little need for another.

After we finished the mission the pug monk left and sent me a pm (I was leader of the party for some reason.) saying we was the worse pug group he ever been in. I then replied he was the best healing monk I've seen in months and left it at that. And so you know he was advertising he was a heal monk. *chuckles*

But even after that I still like to bring Pugs if I'm able and help low level characters in all three chapters. I even try to politly suggest other skills if asked what a good build is for x class. And then again if I see a "strange" build I like to see how well it does before I judge it.

Not with the guild I'm in. For really simple areas with really simple objectives, even then, they want you to be on TS and know your exact build. For that reason, I don't really participate with their nightly objectives of either farming some boss or farming SF (yawn). I was in a guild before this one that turned from being somewhat active (and fun), into another stagnant serious farming guild.

I guess it's kind of hypocritical in a way, if I know my heroes have good builds to compensate the hench's crappy builds, then things run smoothly regardless of the situation. I don't require them to be on TS because I can control them, and there's no bickering or immature behavior to deal with ever. Maybe it's the constant bickering and bad behavior that bothers me then, I don't know. Along with the crappy not-so-serious builds that overwhelm the monks, and usually spell for party disaster. Afterwards, blaming the monks of course, even though I'm sure there's some really crappy monks as well. I'd rather just not hear it, or deal with it, when I'm trying to accomplish something really simple. Makes me want to eat my router or smash my monitor.

Wow, some of you get really defensive when your right to suck at the game is challenged, I don't PVE because of people who like to run stupid builds, how pve is generally boring and easy.

Flare is a horrible skill on its own, even when brought on an ele, the fact that people can, get away with it in PVE is evidence that most of PVE is incredibly mindless and easy. PVE being so easy for most of the game is what produces the arrogant type of noob, who thinks because he dominated most of PVE that he is 1337 at the game. e.g. a mending wammo.

Why would a monk take flare, and the big one, What advantage would a monk with fire magic have over an ele with fire magic? disadvantages?

If you can answer those questions you'll understand why its better for a monk to specialize in a monk attribute.

However sometimes there actualy is an advantage for another proffesion to specialize in another professions attributes, for example soul reaping, expertise, fast casting, and energy storage, leadership, mysticism.

I agree. Le't be more open. I don't usually PUG that often, but I was lamenting about the lack of smiting monks out there...smite hex packs quite a punch...at the same time, I had to take Meloni on a quest and there was lots of skale with rotting flesh...so I gave meloni Tainted flesh as her elite...Stupid? Noobish? Maybe, but we stopped rotting flesh and had a better time...

I hear people bad mouthing wiki builds, and wiki is a god send and a curse...I tried putting some of my builds up, but got flamed...seriously...can you beat all three games and have one prot title and your build be all that bad?

I am not l33t, never will be...

-forever a noob

That is all you really need in Fort Ranik or any mission early on in game.You only need 3 to 4 skill around the Ascalon area as Monk they would be Orison.Healing Breeze,Restorelife and later Heal other or Mending other than Mending that is what is on Alesia's skill bar.You don't need a full skill bar up to you get to lvl 10 it is just learning the role you need to work on.In one of my post on PuGs I really would like to see what everyone would if Henchies and Heros were removed from the game for 1 week.Btw for the full entire game for those who like to use henchies you could use just a limited skill bar afterall it is what they use.Don't forget Henchies don't have runes and it is waste on heros.In reference to an elite area I would team up with someone I know or just get into a small group like a 4 person UW group.

I believe I've answered these questions already.

Why should a monk take flare? Because I chose Elementalist as my secondary profession. Are you one of those folks that believe we should have only single profession characters? If not, then I think I'm entitled to use a few skills from my 2nd profession. During the early missions, there is very little healing for a monk to do. I suppose I could take smiting skills instead, but the fire spells are more efficient against ice monsters.

What advantage does a monk have over an Ele with fire? None. I never said she did. If I wanted to create an Ele I would have. I want a healing monk for the high level areas, but until I reach those areas I see nothing wrong with using my 2nd profession to get me there.

I believe strongly in adapting your build to the quest/mission. (I know, that's another thread) For my monk/ele this means using fire spells against ice monsters, smiting skills against undead and group healing in areas where it's needed.

LOL, you act like Flare is the only skill on my bar. It's not. I usually have a rez, 3 or 4 healing spells and a couple of smiting or fire spells. I have found that healing isn't needed much in the low level areas and most groups could do without a monk. Regardless, my monk still has to get thru these areas somehow so I prefer to pack her with useful skills.

Oh well, I have a feeling a mod is gonna close this soon anyways.

Simple answer there. Efficiency. Who wants to spend the time required to finish a mission only to have a good chance that they will fail because of substandard builds? I'd rather bank on a sure thing as opposed to someone's untested experimental build that they think might work. I have a limited amount of time to play and I don't want to waste it being frustrated by a substandard group that probably will fail the mission. It's much better to go with a sure thing.

PUGs aren't down simply because of heroes, although they are a factor.
There are many other factors involved.
These factors include solo farming, a diluted community, stronger guilds and alliances to name a few.
No one change/event has hurt the PUG, but a combination of changes and events have.
Of all of the changes made to GW during the year or so I have been playing, the only change that was a perceived boon to the PUG was the search party feature, and we all see how well that is being received.
Yet, there have been many changes to help move away from PUGs, from new skills, to ingenious solo builds to improved AI for henchmen (not heroes, but Devona and crew).

Yeah, the community may not be the most patient or friendly one, but the demanding group leaders and such are an exception and not the rule. In all of my time playing, I have run across very few groups that have wanted very specific builds for quests or missions, save elite areas or farming teams.

Just as much as any game change, forums such as this, with the myths of the ever aggroing wammo and the flare monk have ruined the PUG experience.
Stories are read, rehashed and told as new across countless forums and sites. These are stories that are embellished or fabricated. They are accepted as fact and everyone knows what happens from there. The worst thing about the forum influence is that the posters, typically are the same people over multiple sites and forums, and, they are a minority in the community, yet the majority reads the forums and takes the stories as fact, with no doubt. The community bases their reasoning on the notion that if they see it enough, if it is said enough times, that it must be true.

I remember one time I was refused a group because I was a wammo.
I am no fool, I do tank well and control aggro, yet I was subjected to "Leeroy Jenkins" jokes and mending references. I can't say without any doubt that the group lead was influence by a forum, but the stereotype applied to a wammo is the stuff of lore. You can't go to one fan site, without seeing disparaging remarks about them. This holds true for all types of builds and even entire professions (Mesmer or Assassin anyone?).

All in all, the PUG is fighting a losing battle. You cannot force people to play in a manner in which they wish not to. The only way for the PUG to be resurrected is for the community to do so. I don't see that happening and as such, I recommend, you get yourself aligned with a strong guild/alliance and/or start practicing with heroes.

every once and a while you just gotta pull a leroy!

That is what PUGs are all about...

No one expects PUGs to be "leet".

In my view the original post confuses "Expecting PUGs to be leet" with "Expecting PUGs to have skillbars and gameplay skills that are somewhat appropriate for any post-Presearing area" (which 99% of the time they don't, which is why no one PUGs ).

It's a perfectly reasonable expectation. Players with skillbars and gameplay skills appropriate to Presear should be honing all that in Presear, not out of Presear wasting the time of other players who play for success and/or Masters success.

Yeah PUG's are not necessarily the way to go.

I henched Gate of Madness on my Paragon with 3 heroes (Dunkoro, Tahlkora, Koss) and 4 henchmen (Gehraz, Sogolon, Mhenlo and the other monk). I got Expert's Reward and I felt pretty good about myself afterwards!!

In the lower level area's I see nothing wrong with that.
In the higher level area's (prophecies after droks) I would like my team to be at least 5/8 (or better 6/8) 'standard' type players (guild as exception).
That means playing primary profession with secondary to support that.
I don't consider these area's 1337, but I know that many people consider finishing a mission as fun. Failing is not fun.
When I team up and see an unusual build, I just ask why someone runs it.
Most of the time, that's when someone runs 4 attribute lines along 2 professions.

I've seen groups with decent builds fail missions like THK (they could not play the build) and groups with not that great builds finish because they knew how to play.
The 6/8 is to make sure the team can finish when things don't work out as planned. That could be one of the non-standard builds, but can also be a standard build that is played wrong.

The profession that I 'require' to have decent builds is monk (when asking for heal/protect, smite may do whatever he/she likes).
That's because a lot of players don't take self healing skills and many teams therefore depends heavily on the monk(s).
This is not the monk's fault, but unfortunately one of the more problematic things with PuGs.

My guild was running Deep tonight with a couple of PuG members.
One was the BiP. Never played BiP before, but we decided to take him with us (alliance member). Till over 3/4 of the run, the team received only a few BiPs, he just did not get it. But when we arrived at the finall boss, he seemed to have adapted, I (monk) received several BiPs and so did several others.
This time it was the shivers that was missing (the SS/shivers, also random pick-up, was doing a great job with BR through the mission to compensate the BiP, but he failed here at the boss). We talked it over, he put shivers on the bosss and we got the greens (that is, some other group members did).

People can put together the build, but not know how to play it.
But it's easier to explain what they should do (we found out that our BiP thougt it was for healing, not energy) than that you have to figure out how to get a very unusual build to work.

I think there are two main types of people demanding the 'perfect' team.
1. People that want to finish a.s.a.p.
2. People that don't know much about professions except those 'perfect' builds. Or do know others excist, but dare not use/invite them because they will get the blame when things go wrong.

The first needs the cookiecutter, the second could take an other approach and learn that failure is not that bad. Or other builds also work out fine.

This thread just remided me of partly why I gave up PUGing as much as I used to. Hell I can hero/hench my way through the chapters and usually without a full squad meaning I can add one or two usefull/useless pick ups on the way if I want, which is very rare.

But I have to go with the excellent quote below.

It's not a matter of l33tness, but the amount of common sense that is present in the party member. If your party member couldn't bother to think twice before equipping with some hogwash skills, perhaps more people will drop the so-called "l33t" attitude. There's been alot of times I joined a party with no form of support healers, unless you count in the 2 wammos who volunteer to act as monk. For your information, all these occurences happened in late-game areas like Southern Shiverpeak missions. Which is no surprise why people go hench-way rather than PUG-way. I PUG only when I feel like having an element of surprise, otherwise a definite no-no.