Games For Windows Editor cracks under RoT pressure

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=...UserId=5380397

Before anyone says that this is another whine thread, the guy is an Editor for Ziff Davis's magazine which was called "Computer Gaming World"(now called Games For Windows) and has loved Guild Wars since its inception(with almost 2 years of play time under his belt). Doesn't that sound familiar? The only difference between his voice and the usual voice in a Guild Wars forum is that his voice is MUCH louder and has more reach through the magazine with its readers.

The summary basically is that he says the same thing that many here has said about the Realm Of Torment. Which is, throwing uber enemies at you isn't fun or rewarding for many among other things. He even goes into some detail in their recent podcast of what made him hate the game now. I personally can't argue with him since I agree with most of his points.

In the podcast his fellow editors says that he just needs time away form the game (And that 2 years of WoW or 4 years in Vanguard:SoH will cause the same reaction). But his tone sounds like he won't play again for a long time.

The question now is that if ArenaNET sees this, will they take the initiative to make some changes or will they continue down the same path?

What do you think about his comments on this?

(Please, no flames. You can create a coherent argument without resorting to cheap shots.)

My universe just shifted on its axis.
I've been a reader/subscriber to CGW/GFW for a long time, and their staff is some of the best out there. I know Ryan's been playing GW for quite a while. I've enjoyed his past articles on aspects of the game. That said, I do have to agree that the 2,500 exp and 200 gold reward is a slap in the face for such a hard area. I'd also have to agree that the aggro circle/radius is arbitrary at times.

Same thing I said on all the other similar threads.

I hench/heroed all three games with my Dervish in less than a month (average 1.5-2 hours a day) - bonus/masters one more than half before I even started thinking about going for a protector title (masters on all the RoT missions). I do not consider myself that a great a player and I do not spend that much time online - I have seen great and it is not me. Most of my online time I'm also watching TV so it doesn't get my 100% attention either.

The aggro bubble works fine for me, I am able to pull one group at a time just fine with my longbow/flatbow, and if I focus fire they die before they replicate (heck, until recently I never even knew that they replicated because I was too lazy to see what "call to torment" did and they never finished casting it). Also take no more than two active quests at a time, normally just one - though I took all but the masters, it did cause an occasional party wipe. Not sure what else to say. Except for The Gate of Madness and the "masters" quests (which I still agree that Shiro needs some dumbing down and "masters" quests are finally actually hard), it wasn't too hard.

In the end - good luck someplace else. If you are not having fun then it's time to go someplace else. Anet isn't going to listen to this article unless their server logs show a problem. Given their sales and population numbers they have released then my guess is not so much - similar type arguments have been mainstay since day one.

Hmmm.... An Editor for a gaming magazine that has problems in the Realm of Torment. The guy's got 2 options, just like all of us "regular" people. Whine and cry that "it's to hard!" or find out how to play those areas with some degree of competence, which he seems to be lacking.

There is one place that I think needs attention. I can't remember where it is, but you leave a town and spawn in the middle of 2 mobs - that's a pain, but can be managed if the lag monster doesn't rear it's ugly head!

As for mobs being close together; A diamond may be a girl's best friend, but a long bow is a pullers!

My opinion is that DoA is the only "too hard to be fun" part of the game... And I would say this simply from the perspective that you really need cookie cutter types of builds in order to complete it, which take a lot of the fun out of the area. The old elite missions, particularly The Deep had just the right amount of challenge in them, but DoA is simply way too hard. It turns the corner from feeling like you're up against a challenge that makes you think, to a challenge that almost makes you cheat. 5 hours of 1,000 HP tanking with 4-5 eles and 3 monks and a BiP or Ranger is not a challenge that makes you have to think or be creative (beyond the original designers of some of the team builds).

ANet could make the next elite mission even harder. This would still be supported by a group of people who consider themselves 'leet and have the word "noob" macroed in their keyboards to save time typing it over and over and over.... But the reason that many of us (myself included) are not running around in DoA much isn't because it's too hard for our PvE talents, it's because it's not fun.... And fun is why "most" of us are here.

If the rewards justified the effort then I'd be willing to spend a lot more time there, but at the moment I really don't see the point in slogging through all those Margonites and Torment creatures for a handful of masks and the same reward I get for quests in Kourna.

anerf, take a close look at the article linked at the top, and learn a thing or two about the basic concepts of fun/rewarding gameplay

maybe that dude doesn't have PvE skillz.

I agree with the editor. This game is lacking compared to a few other MMO's out there. I knew from the start, that when I started playing this game, it would probably only interest me for 6 months. Every time I log on to play, I crave something more from the game. I know that I will never get what I want, so it is time to move on and only play occasionally.

There are 3 things I expect from an MMO that I do not get with Guild Wars:

1) A huge open landscape where I go where I want, when I want. GW is way too linear, and blocking access to some areas until they are unlocked is lame. I need an interactive landscape that lets me jump and swim around. Exploration in this game shows you pretty much the same old crap with a different name.

2) A loot table that has me get excited about drops throughout the entire course of the game. Getting maxed out weapons and armor at level 16ish makes quest rewards and drops instantly worthless to me. After you get your max weapons/armor, everything you buy becomes more about vanity than neccessity. If I don't feel like I am working for something that will actually help me in the game, then why the heck would I continue playing?

3) Features that are in games from 5 years ago. This includes auction houses and other forms of trading, housing that makes you feel like you own a little piece of the world you spend so much time in, and for christ sake MORE STORAGE! The minigames are nice, but this game lacks the features needed to break the tedium of mindless killing for vanity junk and crappy quest rewards.

Being a huge fan of Dark Age of Camelot and World of Warcraft, it is hard to overlook the flaws in Guild Wars. If you are deeply in love with this game, then you crave simplicity, and/or love arena style PvP. The PvE side of this game for the most part is a dumbed down version of other MMO's. You get what you pay for.

Before you folks ruthlessly defend this game, remember that you are the minority. There are way more people that love WoW, DAoC, and other MMO's more than this one. There are always going to be people that voice their opinion on this games shortcomings.

I would say that the $80 dollars or so that I spent on GW was worth the time spent over 6 months, but now I have more fun browsing the forums than I do actually playing. Time to go back to a game that has a bit more shelf life than this one, and when I get bored with that game I will play GW again...because that is all this game is for me, a diversion for when I am bored with better MMO's.

RoT requires change in tactics.

Before NF, I would run all characters with superior runes, usual nuking/AoE builds, etc.

But at latest at realm of torment, things stopped going smoothly. Party wipes, spikes, a disaster.

But as I started doing more of DoA with real people, I noticed that the group success is proportionally related to PvP mindset. High health, self heals and defenses, party buffs, etc.

These days, RoT is just another area in a campaign that's simply too easy (10 characters completed - and no, not played hardcore in any way, I just ran out of things to do).

All heroes I use these days have at least 500 health, 550 if possible (casters, healers, everyone, including MM). Each part I make has at least 3 interrupts. Each character has at least one defensive skill (stance/enchantment) and optionally a self heal. All heroes have fast rezzes. At any given time each party member will have at least 2 group defensive group buffs on them, depending on primary character I play, sometimes up to 5 - always. In general, all party members have constant +20 - +50 armor, cutting the damage in half, with special area builds even much more.

RoT challenges you to change your aproach to game. After you do that, it becomes just randomly annoying in case you overagro.

"But I don't want to change my build that I've used for 2 years" - your problem. In a game of skill and skills, that's the only thing you can do.

Unfortunately, using the balanced, almost GvG build mentality, it makes the rest of the game too trivial. The same builds allow you to AFK any mission you choose, or breeze through any bonus/masters you want. It's an overkill.

Many used same aproach, many are still using old dogmas. But for me personally (YMMV), superior runes, single-role builds and holy trinity are dead - just like PUGs.

So, no compassion here.

No, other games are so dumbed down, that when players are faced with a challenge that requires a little constructive aproach, they quit. DaoC - yay for ganks and mindless grind. WoW - lead-by-hand through grind-based advancement - a game in which everyone is designed to be a winner.

The beauty of GW is, that you cannot win with grind. You can try a million times, but you will fail. Stop, think and act, and you can beat it in a few hours. Brains over brawn - an ideal game for people who prefer not to waste hundreds and thousands of hours when a little wit is all you need.

Well.... This guy is true : DoA (and on a lesser extend RoT) isn't rewarding or much fun farming. But still... It's a challenge...

I'm only playing GW for 3 monthes now and don't feel bored at all (I still have a lot of things to discover), but it took me only 1 month to get bored in WoW (too much grinding, retarded powerlevel gameplay...).

GW is still fine for me, my only concern is about the way to get money without spamming the trading channel with WTSs... I think an auction house will make me happy for a very long time... I don't need more rewards, just a better way to convert them into something I can use (gold mainly atm).

That is exactly what he was talking about. The risk vs the reward wasn't worth the frustration.

I have a problem as well, with RoT. I don't think it's all that hard, I've been able to hero/hench myself through it with a variety of classes.

I think it's awfully monotonous and unrewarding, though. The only thing I ever do there anymore are the primary quest, drudging from mission to mission.

I would say they over did it in the RoT unlike Prophecies and Factions end game it wasn't like this.It was a little over kill that could of been tuned down as I was taking 2 then 3 and then 4 through the game.

You obviously miss the point.

{EDIT}

You were right Gli, I was thinking about DoA.

While I'm editing this...

RoT doesn't strike me as too hard though. I mean, yeah, it's noticably more difficult than the previous levels, and it requires some thought to by pass certain environmental effects... but I've gotten through it, so has my roommate, and the two of us are casual gamers. Many in my Guild have (and we're a pretty casual Guild.)

You just have to tailor your builds. Ones that might work everywhere else may not work there. Adapt and overcome.

Uhhhh... RoT is a required area... The last 3 regular missions of the game are in there.

You're thinking of DoA I guess.

Is anyone going to say it? Fine, i'll say it:

"I find it fun when i'm challenged in PvE, it made me think about killing the enemy water nuker first rather than the monk "

I love RoT and it's challenges (well, it did get really old, really fast on my assassin), and DoA remains an insane area now that Anet blows up any methods of doing it that are cheap (hiding behind doors? I thought we were heroes).

Good job Anet, stay the course.

Check out their latest podcast.

12 minutes in they talk about GW... saying its trash and a waste of time; http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3148397

Wow...This sucks.

I've always liked Ryan Scott's comments/reviews/etc...dang.

I too agree with his points. And I love the M:TG comparison, haha.

The article's information rings very true and I hope that ANet addresses the difficulty of the end game in future chapters.

However, it sounds like he is trying to do RoT with henchmen or bad PUGs. Ultimately, RoT isn't THAT bad if you play with guild members.

The skill bar is crucial too. While in most PvE you can get away with about anything, in RoT you need team skill bars to take out the incredibly powerful spikes you'll face from the demons in RoT.

I bet that if he tried putting protective spirit on a warrior or two and covering the enchant, he would fair a lot better. The biggest problem in RoT is the cloning and the ele spikes I've found, which is why having them focus fire on a protected tank is so important.

This is not to justify the area though. It could definitely stand a little bit of a tweaking, especially in the patrols that the author mentioned. (Taking on any mob twice your size is asking for trouble, much less lvl 28 demons)

yea i agree with him, i have 7 PvE chars, completed Prophecies 3 times, Factions 5 times, but when i first stepped into RoT (like week after release, after playing previous part of game with my finger in nose) i was... angry from what i saw... so many mobs, high-lvl creatures (3x rain of terror anyone?) with call of torment... it reminds me last part of Factions at the end, which wasnt henchwayable for me after release too. yea, i was upset and was swear about Nightfall (yea i played with heros+henchies, with real ppl who know what and where to do is RoT easy/normal difficulty)

now, about 3 months later, i completed Nightfall twice, and get used to what i can expect in RoT, i adapted to RoT lifestyle, and have no probs with it... but i agree, fisrt opinion was like "wtf? damn anet"

Since when is Realm of Torment hard? Whining about DoA is understandable, but RoT?

Make PvE mobs level 20 max, give more mob diverity( 1 profession each), give'm 8 skills that work. Fixed.

Wow....Ryan has the nerdiest voice I have ever heard. It is funny listening to his buddies on the podcast mocking his voice lol.

RoT? Complaining about DoA I can understand, but... RoT? RoT's not any harder than Shiro'ken eles or Mursaat monk bosses.

Yeah, skill = time spent. Oh wait... crap.

Realm of Torment to me is mostly just an annoying area... it's not too hard for me but I don't enjoy playing there. I just get the primary's and missions done so I can get my green and armour options at the end.

I never bother with any of the side quests there and I never go farming there. I love the way the locations look and the map thing is kinda cool but that's it. Ohh I do go for the treasures there I guess...

But still, I think it's good there are different types of area's for different players to like. But if they had say, taken RoT out of the game and it had finished after killing Varesh that would've been just fine by me.
RoT could've been what is DoA now as far as I'm concerned. But, I still think that you gotta have stuff for different peeps to like.

In spite of my dislike of the area I have 11 characters that finished Elona and 1 more on the way...

Just cause that part is a bit annoying (and trust me I've found great ways to go through the area's to get to the next missions without too much trouble) doesn't mean I suddenly hate the whole game.

Still it is true that there is a lot of criticism out there atm and a lot of it unfair..still I can imagine that the devs are working their tails of to come out with a chapter 4 that will blow us away and if that guy doesn't want to play it, well, then he shouldn't...

I'd expect more from someone like him.

I don't consider myself a good player. In fact, before GW I hadn't played any games in years. My reflexes and coordination suck, and my computer barely meets GW's minimum requirements. (My guildies used to laugh at me for dying in firestorms in fow... when I finally saw the firestorm, I would try to run and the computer would decide to freeze).

And yet, I don't have problems in the realm of torment. Sure, first time I went in there with my usual non-imaginative build, I got owned in a few seconds. It didn't help that I was on my ele... I'm always a noob when playing my ele. I got pretty annoyed with the place, but got through it.

I worked on various builds and figured out ways to get through it much easier. That's one of the things I like about the realm of torment. I actually have to think about how I should put my party together. So I felt a sense of accomplishment when I was able to do the quests in the domain of pain with only a few deaths. I didn't get that in any other part of the game... it was just too easy, especially with the introduction of heroes. Heroes made the game easier, so they HAD to make RoT as hard as it is. Otherwise there would be no challenge at all.

As for the quest rewards not being worth it... do we really need quests that give a million xp and 10k for finishing them? If anything, the rewards are already too high, especially in places like kourna. In prophecies, the quest rewards were much much lower, but people still did the quests. It's the sense of accomplishment you get from finishing the quest, not the reward, that's important. If you want money and xp, then just go farming.

RoT has become one of my favourite places in the game. Even if those arms of insanity do occasionally drive me insane...

I will echo one sentiment - the Realm of Torment is *not fun*. The mobs aren't more difficult than they were before, but they're much more dense leaving you prone to aggroing two mobs and wiping. That's a common theme for PvE in this game - one mob is very doable (ranging from trivially easy to marginally dangerous depending on the quality of your team), but getting doubleteamed basically means a wipe for all but the strongest teams. That makes learning mob patrol patterns and the safe routes through zones to be more valuable than playing your character itself.

But the thing about RoT that's really frustrating is having your builds randomly destroyed by environmental effects. I'm pretty flexible as a player and can build around it, but really it's a miserable experience to go into a zone and find that your build is arbitrarily destroyed. I'm sure less flexible players that have their one build simply get devastated by environmental effects to no end of frustration.

The point about the zones being unrewarding are spot on. By the time you're there, XP doesn't mean a thing to most players anymore. The best quest rewards are long behind you, in Vabbi, where you got gemstones for completing quests. The RoT quests are miserable things, slogging through waves of mobs under a miserable world effect for half an hour to get a few hundred gold and XP you don't care about. Yay?

I'm a bit of a completionist at heart and I had to fight to complete the Realm of Torment. Most MMOs make up for uninspired PvE design with shiny carrots and EZMode. Guild Wars has neither, leaving one to wonder 'why bother?'

Peace,
-CxE

I find it funny that people try to justify Anet's mistake with " I actually have to think about how I should put my party together." That's BS, we can do that with any area in the game. Don't use that to make it seem like it's okay what Anet did. This place would have been fine, if the rewards were more. More gold that is, I could care less about xp I have 9 million of it or maybe something else besides gold..something actually useful for the difficulty or stress.

I think Anet could go about making this game much better and more challenging without making the mobs just stronger. It's like they try to annoy half of the Guild Wars population on purpose so we quit playing.

QTF,

I agree with all that you have said.

Well, if you complete the whole thing like 5 times you get one unique skinned weapon. That's what adds insult to injury - the rewards that are there are *so far out* that even fairly hardcore players can't even see the end of that farming nightmare.

I'll second that notion. Could not have been put better, and it's why I never bother with quests anymore.

Must you post in every thread just to whine and cry and moan and groan and complain? Anerf, sheesh.

This isnt even news anymore. This issue has been talked about 2-3 weeks after Nightfall release but seems to fall on deaf ears. This topic can only be considered to be revisited at best.

In anycase why do we care (why i do even borther to post when i dont even play this crap anymore) if you are happy doing what you are doing in GW so be it, if you are not the uninstall button isnt that hard to find is it?

You, like many others in this thread, seem to be confusing the Realm of Torment with the Domain of Anguish. An easy mistake, admittedly--why did they have to make the names literally synonymous?

Funny thing, I did every quest in RoT and never managed to die more than once while doing each of those quests. Sounds like Ryan needs to realize he isn't good at the game and take better skills along.

Then we all go on a nice little excursion to the real world where not everyone has a dedicated guild.

I dont think difficulty comes into it, its just places like DoA are boring, killing huge lvl800 mobs of the same thing over and over just lacks what the original campaign had, if PvE keeps in that direction then the next chapter will be the last, Anet are already working on "GW2".

Holy Cow... what an article... I do hope ANET does read this even though that guy obviously can't handle RoT.

I can't wait to read his article on DoA and Razah req's.

Seriously though the rewards in RoT should be (have been) 1000-2000 per quest. But I guess PvP "balance" and class (Paragons, Communing Ritualist, etc.) assassination is more important these days.