Games For Windows Editor cracks under RoT pressure

I think Anet should consider the effort v.s. reward in making quests. Ryan was pointing out that the effort needed to finish the quest wasn't worth it.

Yes, there are GW players that doesn't care but his statements. But it can really affect the decision of other people who are planning to get this game. Some of these people are seeking other people's opinion and after reading ryan's gripe, they were turned off. It's bad publication for Anet's part and Anet should look into this

The guy uses much more colorful language than I typically do. But he echos my sentiment about the DOA area in totality.

That area isn't really for me either. No fun with the gimmicks and the extended tours required there. But it doesn't taint my overall view of Guild Wars. I still enjoy playing it after 2 years. Not as much as I used to, but I still get enjoyment from the game. I'm PVE centered but don't hate on my PVP brothers. (as long as they don't hate on me)

What I would LOVE to see is another area like Sorrows... that place is still awesome even after all this time.

Doh! Just realized he was griping about RoT.... yeah it's hard. But it's fun! :P

Okay. Guys.

The Realm of Torment is the last portion of the Nightfall storyline, containing the final three missions.

The Domain of Anguish is the uberhard Elite Mission.

The blog in the OP is complaining about the lack of decent quest rewards and difficulty in the Realm of Torment. Please stop getting them confused.

Wait, why are you still here if you stopped playing GW? Not attacking you, just curious.

I've only been playing GW for a few months I don't find the RoT too difficult. In fact, minus the environmental effects I like it there, I actually have to concentrate and play very carefully. For me that is fun.

That said, it would be very nice for some better quest rewards down there. 2000 exp and another inscribed secret? Give me a break...

RoT is not the least bit hard, so indeed the blog writer's skills are questionable at best.

However, he does have valid points that:

1. The quest rewards in Guild Wars are worthless and pointless.

2. Ludicrously buffing monster stats or ludicrously decreasing player stats via environmental effects does not equal "challenge".

At some point making the game more exciting, challenging and fun won't be accomplished by simply adding greater numbers of mobs and extending the time it takes to complete a zone run.

ANet will need to start breaking up the linearity of their game, perhaps by making divergent and convergent paths in the story lines in new campaigns.

Challenging is great, but for many people these points in the game will just become brickwalls. Brick walls aren't fun.

If your end game is created for only 5% of your player base, than you have a problem.

Refer to this other thread discussion: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10120993
You'll find that the difficulty of GW is quickly surpassing the capabilities of what the majority of players care to have.

You're right. My apologies. Lern 2 read and all that.

...Not that I take back my comment, of course.

I think that guys problem is that he had some bad pugs. Ive been in the the desolation and RoT for the past week trying to beet Nightfall with my paragon and I see rangers and warriors using mending and healing breeze to try and stay alive. These people are liabilities to their teams and since I am not in a big active guild or like playing through an online game with henches, RoT is hard to get through.

I saw a guy bitching about how hard the RoT is. That is all I chose to comment on.

I understand his position as an editor of a gaming mag, and the negative publicity this creates for GW. I also understand that he sabotaged his own reputation to those of us who don't have the problems in RoT that he has, who may or may not subscribe to his magazine.

And you still miss the point entirely.

QFT, emphasis added.

I think this is an increasing danger with every campaign release. It also seems to be at odds with the improved Henchmen and Heroes.

A defacto "solo game" that pulls the carpet out from under the player at end game (and some missions).

Listen to this carefully...As Anet has clearly stated, GW is NOT an MMO, rather an Co-operative RPG. GW actually appeals more to First Person Shooters that to MMO fans. IT IS SUPPOSE TO BE HARD. IT IS SUPPOSE TO CHALLENGE YOU TO THE LIMIT. IT IS NOT INTENDED TO BE AN ALTERNATIVE WORLD TO LIVE IN.

It really has many similarities to other MMOs that are not RPG. For God's Sake, if you like Vanguard, WoW, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, or any other "vast land", "alternate world" games, you are welcome to waste your money and life on it. GW rewards skills and does not require hours and hours wasted just to get from level 60 to 61.

I personally started playing PC games with Doom and Quake, and still am a Hardcore FPS elite. I have played WoW for 5.5 months, D&D online: SR for 3 months, Everquest 2 for 4.5 months, and many other games out there.

Please do not EVEN TRY to compare GW with other MMORPGs, it just does not work. The mechanics and everything about the gameplay is completely different. DON'T, JUST DON'T ... !!!

I don't agree that the Realm of Torment is uber-hard. Sure it has it's tough moments, but that's why it's a challenge. I got through it (on my Paragon no less) and am looking forward to getting the rest of my characters through it as well. Once RoT becomes mundane, I have DoA to look forward to.

I do agree however that the quest rewards are a pittance for what you have to go through in order to complete each quest.

Listen to this carefully, that's the sound of a marketing campaign.

LOL. There are far more similarities than differences. The gameplay is not completely different, it is actually very similar.

Despite the marketing hype, a vast majority of the Guild Wars player base come from those so-called oh-so-different MMORPG's. Those players bring their own expectations of fun to the game with them.

ANet can advertise Guild Wars as the un-cola of multi-player online games but at the end of the day, it is still just sweetened sugar water.

In the real world, it is quite doable with heroes/hench - go re-read what I originally wrote.

The problem is that they are only as good as you are. There is no one there to pull you through, to stop you from doing something stupid, or telling you how to adjust your (and now their) builds. You, and you alone (especially with heroes) are responsible for them. Heck, DoA has been hero-wayed - if they can do it there I rather suspect they can in the RoT. I doubt I could do the DoA, I'm not that good a player, though I have cleared Sorrow's Furnace and Tombs with them.

Read the guy that posts a little below me about how to set up skill bars - pretty much bang on. If done that way most of the rest of the game can be cleared with three to four of the AI (that makes four to five total on your team). The RoT is the only place I felt I needed all seven slots for AI, and then the only party wipes I got were idiocy on my part (Pull to a safe area? Nah - just run in - I don't see anything else!!!).

I guess I too wish the rewards were greater - but then I suppose I would say the same thing about the Desolation. In fact, I tend to find the desolation more irritating due to having to switch between wurms and on foot, the more or less maze like areas (including their size), and that the enemy wurms that you can not see to avoid like to just pop up and down taking you *ages* to kill. But then, it's rewards are better than end game in the other two chapters, even better than several elite areas (tombs you may get a green if you spend an hour of time - or then you may not). In neither one are the mobs that hart to beat if you pull correctly.

So, I fall back to pretty much the same thing I said before: Good luck finding the perfect game. At least the people complaining that GW isn't a MMO have MMO's to go to, the other complaints are present in nearly every other game (this is why I rather suspect that is why after ages of ranting/raving the people are still here). If you do not like the game, go elsewhere - not a flame, I don't like traditional MMO's so I went elsewhere.

The writer of the article probably just had a bad day. When you're having a bad day everything and everyone sucks. Also, he probably just got to RoT. When you first get into an area its natural to have a little difficulty with it. Even if you did it with other characters, different classes bring different experiences. Ibogas are a prime example. When I play my Necro I'm usually one of the first targets for Conjure Phantasm and that's really the extent of my troubles with Ibogas. My Paragon gets hit with Soothing Images AND Conjure Phantasm(which is sorta negated by her 80 armor). This Ryan fellow has to adapt or find another game to play. I didn't understand why he compared GW to MtG. His diss of MtG was totally uncalled for. *sigh* Every game forum I go to, whether it be for video or card games, no one is ever happy with what the companies produce. Its always too hard, too easy, not 1337 enough, too expensive, etc. Stop drinking the Haterade people! There are just as many things right about GW as there are things that are wrong. But who wants to hear good news?

That seems to be how PvE is designed for the most part - anybody with a crap build can get through it so long as they at least know the objectives (which turn out to be "kill everything" anyway.) If you create any missions where it deviates in the slightest a la Thunderhead Keep, Eternal Grove, or Dzagonur Bastion, people panic.

The alternative would be having truly dynamic missions and explorable areas, but most PvErs would freak at change, not to mention it would require more effort on Arenanet's part.

The gems were only worth it because they had a high gold value. Just make the quartermasters give out interesting items - a few unique weapons, minipets, anything other than the junk you already buy from the merchant.

the rewarding system really sucks. Most of my chars come from Tyria and they are all lvl20, why the heck do I need more XP, especially high end areas like RoT where even my Dervish got lvl20 from Vabbi? To buy skills? Each of my char has over 100 skill points unused. Dont tell me just to go buy every single skill available.

Maybe more gold or weapons/tools as reward are gonna change that.

rewards used to be worse, but they still could be better for quests and all.

RoT was easy enough though, sure many factors for experienced players or not. the first time you went there no doubt you wiped out on a mob not realizing they could dupe themselves. ok, ill give it that.

but aside from first experiences, you can take one group down fairly ez, its when their patrols fall into other ones and you fall into the trap of aggroing 2 groups after initially fighting one for 15 secs.

Its true they are high level, not too great, they at least dont have insane armor, as well as the demons take more from lightbringer (note that yes, it is a bitch to get a good title rank for it, thats a different issue).

i think it would have worked out if you had many demons but lower level than they are now, more numbers less strength. and lightbringer attacks were area attacks to bake them into pies....hmmm demon pie..

oh and i think the editor is a clown, almost 2 years gives him the ability to completely rip the game hes been playing happily apart for an article? no shame?

I can honestly tell you guys, that in some way his complaints have merit. I think I skipped over a bunch of the RoT quests because of the way the world was designed. However allow me if you will tell you I absolutely love RoT and DoA (which I have yet to finish). The reason being most people are ticked off was what happened in conjunction to the updates, was because of what follows:

Updated AI + Skill Balances + ToA and DoA difficulty level = people ticked off either of one or all three.

Trust me I have absolutely no problem with this stuff; you’re talking about a guy who actually loves hardcore games like Ninja Gaiden (Xbox). However all these changes were do the press and the people who constantly nagged about GW not being tough enough (well there you go). So honestly this guy’s opinion does not win me over. The only problem is that he might bring some bad press to the GW series in the future. In which there is not a good amount of positive press about GW in the first place, except for some of their honors.

RoT isn't truly bad, but I have to agree about the rewards not being anything special. This is one of the hardest non-elite areas in the game, and the rewards are the same as the Kourna and Desolation quests.

Personally, environmental effects annoy me. They annoyed me in Arborstone, they annoyed me in RoT, and they REALLY annoyed me in DoA. It is, like another poster said, an arbitrary way to shut down certain builds. Instead of making the mobs smarter or more challenging, they made the game itself oppose the player, and punish them for playing their character the way they prefer.

Stupidly overpowered monsters aren't fun, they're frustrating. Dying over and over because they trained to the rez shrine and you can NOT shake them, isn't fun. 60% DP within the first few minutes of any new area, isn't fun. And team wipes if you ever dare aggro more than a single group (with patrols all around) aren't fun. Fun comes from a sense of overcoming enemies, not getting rolled because every monster for 200 miles somehow knows you're there and uses obscenely overpowered skills to slow you, nuke you, and then camp the rez shrines until you can finally run away, kill them one at a time for however long it takes, or just get annoyed enough to shut the game off and walk away.

I've found myself more and more often simply shutting GW down lately. not because I dislike the game, but I have some very angry and particularly violent thoughts about developers who don't seem to understand that players want a challenge, but not an arbitrary level of frustration.

as i always say:

Challenge != Overkill Dificulty
Challenge != Enviromental Effects
Theese only frustrates and anoys players (and experience/skill has nothing to do with it - see Ensigns post, he summed it well).

Dificulty with uninspired rewards leads to frustration - since frustrated gaming magazine editor cannot be really told to STFU, L2P by few self proclaimed l33t or fanbois, anet got problem. luckily, they have enough time to make it right on next chapter - reserve RoT dificulty for non-storyline areas like SF, push ~RoF dificulty to storyline stuff, give hard mode to "too easy" people.

It's really not that bad. It's an area that requires you to think. Heaven forbid you use your noodle.

I have 8 characters that have finished the Nightfall, of which every one of them heroed/henched from the Gate of Torment to the Gate of Madness (including the Gate of Pain mission). Sure, I'm not saying I haven't died. Several times, I made it to the Gate of Madness at 60% dp. You just have to muck your way thru it. Learn to bring a squad that can: a) quick kill and b) interrupt. Self-healing is a good idea, as is loading heros with a res.

Another thing: learn to target certain monsters. You can take them out before they multiply.

because unfortunately, there are still those i have played together with for the past 2 years who are still playing this game.

Though i dont necessary play this game as much as i have in the past, its developments for better or worse still hold some concerns for me nevertheless.

I stop reading when he says that Magic: The Gathering is a waste of time.

hi

the realm of torment is certainly not a hard area to complete.

three of the maps are very easy, why? ... because anet gave you an extra six henchmen, this means your total fighting force is 14 in these areas.

if you cannot complete a map with 1+3heroes+10henchmen then you need to have a good look at your gaming style.

i have completed this area with 5 charactors now, masters on every mission.

i learned the hard way ... Don't Pug .. after bad experience's with pugs i taught myself how to do these missions with heroes and henchmen.

what you will find after doing these missions, you will laugh at yourself for thinking they were hard ... for if anything they are to easy.

Here my take on this.

I've never read Games For Windows...

I have no idea who this guy is...

I don' care why he quit or what he thinks of Guild Wars....

Anyone who quits Guild Wars just because he did, is sad...

Wow, that guy is a paid game reviewer? He's very whiny. Sounds like he got rocked a few times and angrily pounded out his frustrations on the keyboard for that blog entry.

I agree with one of his points though, the REWARD SYSTEM IS HORRIBLE for late game areas. A.net seriously needs to take a look at this nonsense.

There are more than enough sides to this arguement to know that if you go into it looking to be "right", you will get flamed to hell and back.
That being said, I would like to give my view. The person who wrote this was more than a little frustrated at the time, and as such, has gone over the top a bit. i have heroed my way through all of nightfall with my monk, save Gate of Madness mission and Abbadons Gate. i have also completed nightfall using a paragon with non-max armor. it isn't quite that hard. HOWEVER, it is far too hard for the rewards given. Prophecies made me quest because i needed the skills and was too cheap to buy them. Nightfall took that out. You can go through almost the entire game on primary quests and come out none the worse for the wear. I have. and honestly, i dont care. all the optional quests served to do for me was annoy. theres no real point in completing them.
The main point here, that most people seem to be missing, is that GW is a much more PvP oriented game. from GvG to HA, Hero Battles, AB, TA, RA, theres more than enough PvP options available. and thats what the game boils down to, is PvP. I also play WoW, when i have the time, and i have to say that these two games are as close to polar opposites as can be. GW is about the PvP, PvE is just a way to obtain the skills and knowledge to step up and move into PvP. If you want a geniusly rewarding PvE experience, you're in the wrong place. pack your bags and leave, or stay and tough it out. the choice is yours.

Look I'm not going to start a PvE vrs PvP argument again.

PvE and PvP are two different games completely. PvE is not a step up to PvP. The fact PvE and PvP uses the same skills is the way the game is.

You can't learn much about real PvPing from just paying pure PvE.

Guild Wars is not CO-OP RPG... its not called a PvE or a PvP game. End of arguement.

Yes there is GvG to HA, Hero Battles, AB, TA, RA. But there is 3 maasive game worlds to travel and explore. If Guild Wars was a PvP oriented game, why would they bother putting so much time and effort into PvE.

The only thing that is true in this whole thread, is this editor got his butt handed to him like many a PuG and raged quit.

But I do agree that the reward in the Domain of Anguish are too small and should be made 3 or 4 times bigger. Also all quests down there should be marked as Master quests.

The problem I see here is the idea that they are putting "So much time and effort into PvE". If they are, and i'm not just taking a shot at Anet, i'm not feeling it. PvE is limited, it is bugged, it seems far too confined. it's highly repetitive, and since it is based on AI, is beatable. AI is Indeed artificial. so when i grab my monk for PvE, and i move to aggro a group in the RoT, i know that i'm going to need to pull to X location to avoid aggro, i know what classes are going to be priority targets, unlike the enemy, and as such, i can neutralize an opposing "Party" before it becomes a threat. The way you wipe is when the opposing force's damage crosses a threshold, due to aditional spawns or aggro.
If i party with all hench and hero, when a mistake comes, it will be my mistake, but if i dont make that mistake, i wont wipe.

Bottom line, PvE is not only not a gigantic challence, it doesnt seem complete. It leaves something missing, something unfinished.

I agree with that, PvE is not a Challenge. A.net tired to make it more of a Challenge by making the DoA insanely hard, but that is not fun, its just kind of annoying.

But...

PvP is also repetitive, since its the same old metagame spike builds over and over again. But then again all games are repetitive in their own way correct?

Well I havent looked at the link yet, but if he is saying that ROT is crap because it throws wave after wave at you, I agree.

Anets trend at making GWs harder is to simple make creatures interupt, res, multiple, increase mob numbers and number of creatures in an area.

They dont improve AI or the gameplay. They just throw more stuff at you and make it harder to kill.


[edit]


...I just read the link and Utterly agree with him.

I found getting access to DOA after completing Nightfall a big disappointment. Why? Simply because I did most of the missions in Nf with my hero/hench team and that's not possible in DOA. So I hear you ask: why not join up with a human team? or: Don't you like challenges? The answer: I would like to explore the region without being pushed onward, in my own time, just for fun. And I'm not going to spend many hours of aggroing in a human team.

I don't think it has anything to do with hard or not, exept perhaps, that it's not possible to play there with only 3 heroes. There's nothing we did not see before, its only more and stronger monsters, and more area effects. Its the lenght of the mission, the fact that you can't just quit when you want to, the fact that it's a mission so when all die its over, and the lack of reward that give me the feeling: let it be. I'm afraid finding a proper reward for those who complete the game will always be an issue though...

Edit: Ahm, mixed up RoT and DOA again
About RoT: I just find it depressive... No problems to play there, but no fun place either.

Because you refer to a human team as "guild members" which you then assume everyone has access to. Henches and heroes, with all their flaws, are 10x better than the wammos and stuck up Dervishes and Monks.

Heh. What's funny to me is he's played for two years and has a constant 60 DP in the RoT, according to his words. Yet... i haven't even played a year yet i rarely get half of that dp amount in the 2 characters i've bothered to take that far. He sure isn't very good at this game for someone of his time played. Especially considering how PvE typically isn't too, too hard outside of elite missions and PUGs.

Bingo! You said exactly what I was thinking. I did the RoT missions but I did NOT go back and do ANY of the side quests. Why? Because the rewards are not worth my time and effort. I see absolutely no reason to do these side quests...ever.

Now, if I could trade in those purple Ancient Whatsogiggers for something worthwhile, then i might go do them. Am I the only person who does not understand the purpose of all these reward tokens? Each area gives you a different token and you have to accumulate enough of them in order to trade them for the exact same stuff as the area you just left. You trade in Battle Commedations for Sup. ID pack, Sup Salvage Kits and bascially thats about all thats worth it. You go to a new area and get a new token and .....same crap to trade for.

The biggest exception would be the trade contracts which can be traded in ofr a Ruby, Sapphire, or Diamond(which has no use yet O_O). But even then, You alone will NEVER get enough contracts to trade for enough gems for even 1 piece of Jewelers Armor! You have to buy them from others.

So I say make the damn rewards better as you progress throught the game, cause as it is now, I have NO reason to complete any of the side quests. And if thats the case, why even bother having side quests? Oh, maybe it gives us PvE'ers "something to do" *rolls eyes*

I've played for nearly 2 years and rarely been down to 60dp myself in any other section of all 3 campaigns. But in ROT it happens very easily.

Not because the creatures are stupidly hard. If those creatures were further and fewer between and you could pick them off intelligently, then it would be fine and enjoyable.

But in ROT you cant move 2 feet without seeing around 6 mobs filling the entire area and each mob full of around 6 creatures. As I said those individual mobs arent the issue. Its how tightly packed ROT is with them.

You spend most of your time creeping around, waiting till mob1 is out of mob2's area, and try to pounce on them before mob1 gets into mob3s agro area.

Anet packed ROT too full of mobs, its that simple. And it isnt fun, it isnt enjoyable. Its frustrating and its pampering for the hardcore gamers who want everything to be very very very tough.

It alienates the rest of us.

Its fine to have elite areas like that, which are seperate from the storyline and you dont have to move through to complete the game. To choose to play hardcore elite areas if fine.

But when they make storyline areas into elite-esc zones, where you have to fight at a completely different level and endure high DP and ressing it removes the gameplay aspect and replaces it with frustration.

I came close to giving up on nightfall myself when I reached ROT. I was hardly a noob at that point, but I wasnt expecting what I found in ROT. Simple because its a complete change from prophercies, factions and even the first 3/4 of NF.

Its is a shock to the system when you havent been into an elite-esc area before. And it doesnt apeal to alot of players, including me. I prefere casual playing with a challenge. But ROT is more FW, UW and DOAesc.

Plus the huge fact that the rewards for completing the ROT quests are simply not worth it. Even the Master quests in the mapped areas of NF arent worth it.

You get more XP from doing easier quests in both Factions and Prophercies.

Its like a swift kick in the teath after spending an hour doing a "go here and speak to him quests" which took killing around 100 creatures and loosing half your DP, just to get there and only be given about 500xp-1000xp for doing it.

If the reward was worth it, XP and gold wise, then I could understand the mobs numbers and the over-powerment. But their not.