Well, it seems that an overwheelming majority of Sins users prefer Zealous mod over the Sundering mod.
Even on Guru price check forum, Zealous mod is at a higher price.
The problem is: When I'm going on auction sites to see some daggers, I always see some nice things, but always with this "Sundering 20%", and never with zealous mod. It's irritating when you think you ll have to buy a zealous mod after buying the so "Perfect" dagger at some very high price...
So why ??? Those who sell the daggers never played sins? Or is there another reason I fail to see ???
Something I don't understand with "Perfect daggers"
Hyunsai
Shuuda
Well, sundering sucks on daggers, people think sundering is good, but that's just a "leet" status thing. Like how people think a sundering sword is worth 100K + Stupid amount of ectos.
Zealous is worthy of high price on daggers.
Zealous is worthy of high price on daggers.
Stranger The Ranger
Ignorance made Sundering Mods overrated -.-"
And yea... the Assassin isnt the most popular class among the general community :z
And yea... the Assassin isnt the most popular class among the general community :z
Neverending Silence
Perfect weapons are always worth more because the have the best mods....well kinda. For daggers zealous tend to be the prime choice for mods considering assassins need energy to keep up their atk chains. Fast atking + 1nrg per hit makes the zealous mod a perfect choice in "most" cases. I personally use sundering 20/20 almost all the time for PVE because my builds normally use alot of crits, in which case i dont require the use of zealous daggers. Take a perfect sword for instance (15^50, 20/20, +30 req 8-9), it would be worth more than a zealous sword would. Even though it's not quite as useful generally it's still worth more because the mods are demanded more. Daggers work the same way except the zealous daggers have a broader range of uses so it makes them a better choice to use. It's the same concept in the real world...most things that are worth alot (example diamonds) arent very useful but are rare and on higher demand.
Priest Of Sin
The assassin doesn't gain a whole lot from his DAGGERS, per se, but the bonus damage coming off his attacks. And getting 2-3 extra damage with a 20% chance is less useful than ALWAYS gaining back 1 energy per hit, or stealing 3 life. Vampiric and Zealous will always be worth more, IMHO.
Neverending Silence
thats why u carry more than one set of daggers...smart sins carry 2-3 pairs...i personally carry 3 90% of the time and depending on my secondary profession a weapon for that as well.
Priest Of Sin
I carry 4 pairs, Zealous Fort, Vampiric Fort, Vampiric Enchant, Zealous Enchant.
Retribution X
I always use my zealous daggers.
I love em too much...
I love em too much...
Laenavesse
I have 2 daggers and a longbow that I use for pulling as well as one that could be used for Crit Barrage if I so desired
The daggers I use are Ungues of the Forgotten (15^50, zealous, hp +30) and Falaharn's Split Chakrams (15^50, daze 20%, hp +30) that I use whenever I run a daze build.
I use the Ungues more though :3 I prefer zealous over sundering, even if I do use crit attacks. Basically for the same reasons others have mentioned
The daggers I use are Ungues of the Forgotten (15^50, zealous, hp +30) and Falaharn's Split Chakrams (15^50, daze 20%, hp +30) that I use whenever I run a daze build.
I use the Ungues more though :3 I prefer zealous over sundering, even if I do use crit attacks. Basically for the same reasons others have mentioned
Yanman.be
Everthorn's Chakrams. They're green, they're 55'able. Gogogo!
Shadowfox1125
Sundering is useless as we all know..
I have a pair of Zealous, Vamp, and Icy Daggers at all times.
And a shield and spear to switch when not battling.
I have a pair of Zealous, Vamp, and Icy Daggers at all times.
And a shield and spear to switch when not battling.
Saphatorael
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverending Silence
thats why u carry more than one set of daggers...smart sins carry 2-3 pairs...i personally carry 3 90% of the time and depending on my secondary profession a weapon for that as well.
Yay, I'm smart! ^^
Anyways, to stay on-topic... sundering is horrid. Totally not worth it, and zealous outclasses most other mods easily (exceptions would be an elemental mod for certain builds, and vampiric). But ah well, let the powertraders have crappy items, I'm glad with my greens, and am kicking bum with them
Anyways, to stay on-topic... sundering is horrid. Totally not worth it, and zealous outclasses most other mods easily (exceptions would be an elemental mod for certain builds, and vampiric). But ah well, let the powertraders have crappy items, I'm glad with my greens, and am kicking bum with them
nomercy
Assassins are better off with Zealous than anything else. The Sundering crap is just cause it's the only mod of that sort that is available in Perfect/Non-Perfect state. So a 20/20 Sundering with +30 is considered "more Perfect" than a Zealous (seeing as its always perf.) + 30.
lord_shar
Sundering on daggers is impractical simply because daggers have pathetically low base 7-17 damage to start with. As mentioned above, the bulk of assassin melee damage come from armor-ignoring skill based +damage. Since assassin attack skills require raw energy, the zealous dagger mod really makes assassin melee damage output come alive, especially when IAS and double-strikes are factored in.
lightblade
Sundering is overrated - everyone here knows that
Zealous is overrated - Assassins do chained attack skills and chained attack skills doesn't have double strike applied. So in comparison, you're only reducing each of your attack skill's energy cost by 1. Assassin's main energy management still come from critical strike.
Vampiric - 3 extra damage is not a lot if you're going to use attack skills
Conclusion: Non of these 3 mods gives you significant advantage on the battle field.
Silencing is the mod that I perfer, because 2 extra seconds of daze is very deadly.
Zealous is overrated - Assassins do chained attack skills and chained attack skills doesn't have double strike applied. So in comparison, you're only reducing each of your attack skill's energy cost by 1. Assassin's main energy management still come from critical strike.
Vampiric - 3 extra damage is not a lot if you're going to use attack skills
Conclusion: Non of these 3 mods gives you significant advantage on the battle field.
Silencing is the mod that I perfer, because 2 extra seconds of daze is very deadly.
Kiba of hidden leaf
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightblade
Sundering is overrated - everyone here knows that
Zealous is overrated - Assassins do chained attack skills and chained attack skills doesn't have double strike applied. So in comparison, you're only reducing each of your attack skill's energy cost by 1. Assassin's main energy management still come from critical strike.
Vampiric - 3 extra damage is not a lot if you're going to use attack skills
Conclusion: Non of these 3 mods gives you significant advantage on the battle field.
Silencing is the mod that I perfer, because 2 extra seconds of daze is very deadly. Zealous is not as bad as you think, because its the best mod considering the other choices.
2 seconds of more dazed? 1. 2 seconds isnt really going to make or break whether you kill a monk. 2. Temple Strike/Golden Skull Strike builds are rare and somewhat innefective.
Zealous is overrated - Assassins do chained attack skills and chained attack skills doesn't have double strike applied. So in comparison, you're only reducing each of your attack skill's energy cost by 1. Assassin's main energy management still come from critical strike.
Vampiric - 3 extra damage is not a lot if you're going to use attack skills
Conclusion: Non of these 3 mods gives you significant advantage on the battle field.
Silencing is the mod that I perfer, because 2 extra seconds of daze is very deadly. Zealous is not as bad as you think, because its the best mod considering the other choices.
2 seconds of more dazed? 1. 2 seconds isnt really going to make or break whether you kill a monk. 2. Temple Strike/Golden Skull Strike builds are rare and somewhat innefective.
lord_shar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightblade
...<SNIP>...
Zealous is overrated - Assassins do chained attack skills and chained attack skills doesn't have double strike applied. So in comparison, you're only reducing each of your attack skill's energy cost by 1. Assassin's main energy management still come from critical strike.
...<SNIP>... dual attacks = 100% doublestrike
So zealous reduces all dual attack costs by 2 points when they hit.
Zealous is overrated - Assassins do chained attack skills and chained attack skills doesn't have double strike applied. So in comparison, you're only reducing each of your attack skill's energy cost by 1. Assassin's main energy management still come from critical strike.
...<SNIP>... dual attacks = 100% doublestrike
So zealous reduces all dual attack costs by 2 points when they hit.
Xunlai Agent Smith
Sundering is really really poor on daggers...
Shuuda
Temple strike builds innefective? Shows what some people know.
I perfer to have Zealous or condition lengthing upgrades on my daggers.
I perfer to have Zealous or condition lengthing upgrades on my daggers.
Tingi
zealous and vamp is all you need.
moko
FURIOUS IS TEH LEET ON DAGGERS SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111
well i guess all has been said already.
well i guess all has been said already.
Kiba of hidden leaf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuuda
Temple strike builds innefective? Shows what some people know.
I believe i said somewhat innefective. The difference between somewhat ineffective and ineffective is that the build is only good in some situations. For example you fight a warrior you blind him(big deal). He just heals until hes not blinded, either you run or your dead. So it does show what i know.
I believe i said somewhat innefective. The difference between somewhat ineffective and ineffective is that the build is only good in some situations. For example you fight a warrior you blind him(big deal). He just heals until hes not blinded, either you run or your dead. So it does show what i know.
Dutch Masterr
all i need is 15^50 zealous/vampiric of fortitude.
the ever-hated 15% vs hexed foes can actually be good for an assassin with build including shadow prison and other hexes.
and about temple strike....we all know wastrel's collapse just beats the crap out of that skill =)
the ever-hated 15% vs hexed foes can actually be good for an assassin with build including shadow prison and other hexes.
and about temple strike....we all know wastrel's collapse just beats the crap out of that skill =)
ZenRgy
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightblade
Sundering is overrated - everyone here knows that
Zealous is overrated - Assassins do chained attack skills and chained attack skills doesn't have double strike applied. So in comparison, you're only reducing each of your attack skill's energy cost by 1. Assassin's main energy management still come from critical strike.
Vampiric - 3 extra damage is not a lot if you're going to use attack skills
Conclusion: Non of these 3 mods gives you significant advantage on the battle field.
Silencing is the mod that I perfer, because 2 extra seconds of daze is very deadly. Hahahahahahahaha.
Zealous is overrated - Assassins do chained attack skills and chained attack skills doesn't have double strike applied. So in comparison, you're only reducing each of your attack skill's energy cost by 1. Assassin's main energy management still come from critical strike.
Vampiric - 3 extra damage is not a lot if you're going to use attack skills
Conclusion: Non of these 3 mods gives you significant advantage on the battle field.
Silencing is the mod that I perfer, because 2 extra seconds of daze is very deadly. Hahahahahahahaha.
dargon
Zealous is never about reducing the cost of a skill, etc. It's about increasing your energy regen while in combat. 1 pip of regen = 1/3 of a point of energy per second. Trading that single pip for a weapon that gives you +1 energy each hit almost always works out for the better in energy regen (provided the player is attacking and not sitting back, waiting for skills to recharge)
clawofcrimson
zealous, vamp and elemental for the warriors
mrlopes
4 Weapon Slots filled with!
Zealous, Vamp, Elemental and a Longbow
Zealous, Vamp, Elemental and a Longbow
NinjaKai
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenRgy
Hahahahahahahaha.
Just because someone doesn't use what are considered the staple mods doesn't mean his choice of weaponary is any less valid than an anothers.
Though I won't argue with the fact that a silencing mod on a pair of daggers is unusual. Considering that the only assassin skills that cause dazed are elites. But to each his own. No fun if everyone used the same builds.
Though I won't argue with the fact that a silencing mod on a pair of daggers is unusual. Considering that the only assassin skills that cause dazed are elites. But to each his own. No fun if everyone used the same builds.
ZenRgy
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaKai
Just because someone doesn't use what are considered the staple mods doesn't mean his choice of weaponary is any less valid than an anothers.
Though I won't argue with the fact that a silencing mod on a pair of daggers is unusual. Considering that the only assassin skills that cause dazed are elites. But to each his own. No fun if everyone used the same builds. Yes, but he trashed Vampiric and Zealous, and didn't even mention elemental, we're talking about daggers, not builds.
Beguiling Haze and Temple strike, although not as cookie cutter as Shadow Prison/BoA sins are still fairly standard.
Though I won't argue with the fact that a silencing mod on a pair of daggers is unusual. Considering that the only assassin skills that cause dazed are elites. But to each his own. No fun if everyone used the same builds. Yes, but he trashed Vampiric and Zealous, and didn't even mention elemental, we're talking about daggers, not builds.
Beguiling Haze and Temple strike, although not as cookie cutter as Shadow Prison/BoA sins are still fairly standard.
Sqube
I'm all about Zealous/Elemental of Enchanting, myself. I've got some Vampiric of Enchanting, but I don't really know that 3 health is going to make or break anyting; running a lead --> offhand --> dual build, that will only get you 12 extra health.
I don't really remember many times where 12 health was a difference maker for me; I could be wrong though. That said, sundering is always there because sundering on just about every other weapon due to their higher base damage. So people never even stopped to think how much extra damage you could get using sundering on daggers and just assumed it was awesome.
The moral of the story? In my opinion, your four daggers should be:
Zealous of Enchanting
Zealous of Fortitude
Elemental of Enchanting
Elemental of Fortitude
That's my take on it, anyway. Don't forget those +5 energy inscriptions, too; most of the time, it's probably going to be a lot more useful than your 15^50, especially if you get DP. As a quick aside, 15^50 applies to all damage, not just the base dagger damage, right?
/$0.02
I don't really remember many times where 12 health was a difference maker for me; I could be wrong though. That said, sundering is always there because sundering on just about every other weapon due to their higher base damage. So people never even stopped to think how much extra damage you could get using sundering on daggers and just assumed it was awesome.
The moral of the story? In my opinion, your four daggers should be:
Zealous of Enchanting
Zealous of Fortitude
Elemental of Enchanting
Elemental of Fortitude
That's my take on it, anyway. Don't forget those +5 energy inscriptions, too; most of the time, it's probably going to be a lot more useful than your 15^50, especially if you get DP. As a quick aside, 15^50 applies to all damage, not just the base dagger damage, right?
/$0.02
Shuuda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiba of hidden leaf
I believe i said somewhat innefective. The difference between somewhat ineffective and ineffective is that the build is only good in some situations. For example you fight a warrior you blind him(big deal). He just heals until hes not blinded, either you run or your dead. So it does show what i know.
well, Temple strike has plenty of uses.
1: Blind other Assassins, or warriors who pose a threat to your monks, eles or whatever.
2: Daze casters to prevent them from casting spells to stop you from killing them.
And using a warrior as an example of a situation is bad, because most assassins go for sotfer targets. Indeed, it shows what you know.
On the subject of daggers, I try to go for Slashing non ele damage daggers (Unless my build reqires a certain element) As Ele armor can lower the damage from elements, Necros do have armor which can help Vs piercing, and rangers get extra AL vs ele damage.
1: Blind other Assassins, or warriors who pose a threat to your monks, eles or whatever.
2: Daze casters to prevent them from casting spells to stop you from killing them.
And using a warrior as an example of a situation is bad, because most assassins go for sotfer targets. Indeed, it shows what you know.
On the subject of daggers, I try to go for Slashing non ele damage daggers (Unless my build reqires a certain element) As Ele armor can lower the damage from elements, Necros do have armor which can help Vs piercing, and rangers get extra AL vs ele damage.
Carl Butanananowski
Damn, looks like I need to get me some 5/1 vamp daggers. And a better pulling bow.
Anyway, I use the Ceremonial Daggers for the 15^50, Zealous, and +30 hp, and with 16 dagger and 10 crit hits, thats something around... 18-19% chance (give or take, not looking atm), while also factoring Critical Eye, +7% AND +1en on crit, so thats something like.. +3+1+1. I'm unsure if dual attacks add energy on crit or just make it 100% chance.
But I ramble. Zealous + Critical Eye + 16 dagger and 10 crit = Energy. Lots and lots of energy. So go out all of you noob assassins and GET 'ER DONE!!
PS: Can someone explain to me what you mean by "Zealous/Vamp of Enchanting/Fortitude" etc..?
Anyway, I use the Ceremonial Daggers for the 15^50, Zealous, and +30 hp, and with 16 dagger and 10 crit hits, thats something around... 18-19% chance (give or take, not looking atm), while also factoring Critical Eye, +7% AND +1en on crit, so thats something like.. +3+1+1. I'm unsure if dual attacks add energy on crit or just make it 100% chance.
But I ramble. Zealous + Critical Eye + 16 dagger and 10 crit = Energy. Lots and lots of energy. So go out all of you noob assassins and GET 'ER DONE!!
PS: Can someone explain to me what you mean by "Zealous/Vamp of Enchanting/Fortitude" etc..?
Sqube
There are no 5/1 vampiric daggers; it's only 3/-1.
16 DM is kinda high, but you can do that if you want. Hittin 10 CS is... kinda weird. You should be shooting for breakpoints, which are (IIRC) 8 or 13. If you're not hitting one of those, a lot of people (myself included) feel you're wasting points that could be used more efficiently elsewhere. You know, like raising Shadow Arts or whatever you're going to use to heal yourself.
Dual attacks only give you +3 energy if they're criticals; the only dual guaranteed to give you a critical is [skill=text]Critical Strike[/skill].
Zealous/Vampiric of Enchanting/Fortitude are dagger tangs and handles, respectively. If you don't know what those are, read about weapon upgrades on GuildWiki.
It's just a way of saying what type of daggers should be carried, like Zealous Dagger Name of Enchanting, where dagger name is the name of the dagger if you're using a non-green.
16 DM is kinda high, but you can do that if you want. Hittin 10 CS is... kinda weird. You should be shooting for breakpoints, which are (IIRC) 8 or 13. If you're not hitting one of those, a lot of people (myself included) feel you're wasting points that could be used more efficiently elsewhere. You know, like raising Shadow Arts or whatever you're going to use to heal yourself.
Dual attacks only give you +3 energy if they're criticals; the only dual guaranteed to give you a critical is [skill=text]Critical Strike[/skill].
Zealous/Vampiric of Enchanting/Fortitude are dagger tangs and handles, respectively. If you don't know what those are, read about weapon upgrades on GuildWiki.
It's just a way of saying what type of daggers should be carried, like Zealous Dagger Name of Enchanting, where dagger name is the name of the dagger if you're using a non-green.
Shadows Assasin X
I carry 4. 1 zealous, 1 vamp, 1 20/20 sunder pair, and one elemental DMG pair
Sqube
Why do you carry sundering daggers? I'm not trying to sound sarcastic or anything; it's just that, with the preponderance of evidence showing that it's not as useful for us as it is for the other melee classes, I don't understand why you'd put it on a pair of daggers when you could use something else that would give you so much more damage.
Livingston
I absolutely love sundering mods.
As I have absolutely no use for them and can sell them for insane amounts of money. Tres cool. ^_^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqube
As I have absolutely no use for them and can sell them for insane amounts of money. Tres cool. ^_^
Quote:
I'm all about Zealous/Elemental of Enchanting, myself. I've got some Vampiric of Enchanting, but I don't really know that 3 health is going to make or break anyting; running a lead --> offhand --> dual build, that will only get you 12 extra health.
I don't really remember many times where 12 health was a difference maker for me; I could be wrong though. That said, sundering is always there because sundering on just about every other weapon due to their higher base damage. So people never even stopped to think how much extra damage you could get using sundering on daggers and just assumed it was awesome. The use of vampiric is not for gaining health it's for the health that you are taking away. This means that every hit you are doing is dealing 3 extra damage. Even though that doesn't seem like much, as many people have calculated on this board, it ends up being a whole lot more than what sundering offers, due to the low chance of it actually coming off. The only use it would have is for spiking, and it doesn't even do that very well as you can't control when it spikes. This is why people prefer zealous for assassins. It keeps up their energy so they can get more skill attacks off which do massive amounts of damage.
I realize you know the last part of that Sqube, it was for those that are using sundering.
Livingston
I don't really remember many times where 12 health was a difference maker for me; I could be wrong though. That said, sundering is always there because sundering on just about every other weapon due to their higher base damage. So people never even stopped to think how much extra damage you could get using sundering on daggers and just assumed it was awesome. The use of vampiric is not for gaining health it's for the health that you are taking away. This means that every hit you are doing is dealing 3 extra damage. Even though that doesn't seem like much, as many people have calculated on this board, it ends up being a whole lot more than what sundering offers, due to the low chance of it actually coming off. The only use it would have is for spiking, and it doesn't even do that very well as you can't control when it spikes. This is why people prefer zealous for assassins. It keeps up their energy so they can get more skill attacks off which do massive amounts of damage.
I realize you know the last part of that Sqube, it was for those that are using sundering.
Livingston
lord_shar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqube
...<SNIP>...
That's my take on it, anyway. Don't forget those +5 energy inscriptions, too; most of the time, it's probably going to be a lot more useful than your 15^50, especially if you get DP. As a quick aside, 15^50 applies to all damage, not just the base dagger damage, right?
/$0.02 No, 15>50 and +20% customization only affects base weapon damage. It doesn't affect extra bonus damage from skills. This is easily verified using Unsuspecting Strike, a 15>50 customized max damage dagger (7-17 dmg, total +35% dmg), and a 60AL target dummy.
At 13 critical strikes, unsuspecting strike deals +96 damage vs. a full health target. An observed dagger critical hit vs. 60AL target = 33 damage (DM=12). If the bonus skill damage is boosted by the 15>50 customized dagger, then you will observe a +130 damage boost (maximum damage possible = 163 on a critical with US-attack). However, observed critical hits with unsuspecting strike only result in total 129 damage (DM=12) vs. 60AL targets instead of the projected 163. Therefore, unsuspecting strike's +96 damage isn't being multiplied by the customized 15>50 dagger's damage modifier.
EDIT: Please feel free to correct any mistaken information above
I wrote this in a rush, so I'm sure there's probably something I missed lol.
Takuna
H0lie w0wz! im guNa g3t p0oned bi -1 p1p!!! Vampiric just smacks sundering, IMO. I mean, you're not going to run around with it, are you? Just switch to zealous.
Sqube
Man, they were serious about that learning something new everyday.
Looks like I'm going to have to find a bunch of +5 energy inscriptions; they'll be a lot more useful.
Looks like I'm going to have to find a bunch of +5 energy inscriptions; they'll be a lot more useful.
lord_shar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqube
Man, they were serious about that learning something new everyday.
Looks like I'm going to have to find a bunch of +5 energy inscriptions; they'll be a lot more useful. Well, it depends... At Dagger Mastery = 12 vs. 60AL targets, a customized +5 energy dagger set hits for 29 damage, while a 15>50 customized hits for 33 damage, netting you +4 damage per strike. That +4 doesn't seem like much, but assassins routinely hit with a LOT of attacks, so that +4 damage bonus adds up very quickly. Throw in Black Lotus Strike or Critical Strike for energy management, and the +5 energy mod loses some of its luster.
Looks like I'm going to have to find a bunch of +5 energy inscriptions; they'll be a lot more useful. Well, it depends... At Dagger Mastery = 12 vs. 60AL targets, a customized +5 energy dagger set hits for 29 damage, while a 15>50 customized hits for 33 damage, netting you +4 damage per strike. That +4 doesn't seem like much, but assassins routinely hit with a LOT of attacks, so that +4 damage bonus adds up very quickly. Throw in Black Lotus Strike or Critical Strike for energy management, and the +5 energy mod loses some of its luster.