Something I don't understand with "Perfect daggers"
Sqube
True enough... I guess it all depends on your energy. I regularly find myself digging into the bottom of my energy pool with distressing regularity, so I guess I'll give +5 energy daggers a spin and see how they feel for me.
Priest Of Sin
Keep a +5 pair with the exact same mods as your regular pair of daggers. It helps out with DP. Or so you won't be totally useless after using Rebirth in PvE.
Livingston
A zealous mod destroys the gain of a +5 energy mod.
When in battle you only really get the benefit of a +5 energy mod once, depending on how your skills are set up. Once you use the +5 energy it is basically gone until your energy has fully recharged.
So the first time it is useful is on the initial attack chain. If you have +5 energy, this may allow you to pull off and extra skill that costs 5 energy, or one that costs 10 if you normally have 5 left over after the original attack chain.
The second situation that makes it useful is that it creates a larger gap for your natural energy gain. As soon as you use 5 energy your energy will start to naturally recharge. Thus it is effectively recharging with an extra 5 energy gap. It doesn't start any sooner but your energy is having a slightly longer time to recharge before you hit 0.
Now with a zealous mod you are gaining the benefits constantly while you are attacking. If you want to see the difference between energy gain with and without it, simply go to a practice dummy. Use a normal weapon without an energy or a zealous mod and go though your entire attack chain until you hit zero energy. When you hit zero, stop using skills and time how long it takes to get your energy back to full.
Next use a zealous mod and repeat to zero energy. Continue attacking a new dummy with regular hits, or with your IAS activated if you use one in your build, and time how fast your energy gets back to full.
Then use logic to determine if a +5 mod will beat the effects of the zealous.
I haven't tried this myself, but I imagine the zealous will dominate the test.
Livingston
When in battle you only really get the benefit of a +5 energy mod once, depending on how your skills are set up. Once you use the +5 energy it is basically gone until your energy has fully recharged.
So the first time it is useful is on the initial attack chain. If you have +5 energy, this may allow you to pull off and extra skill that costs 5 energy, or one that costs 10 if you normally have 5 left over after the original attack chain.
The second situation that makes it useful is that it creates a larger gap for your natural energy gain. As soon as you use 5 energy your energy will start to naturally recharge. Thus it is effectively recharging with an extra 5 energy gap. It doesn't start any sooner but your energy is having a slightly longer time to recharge before you hit 0.
Now with a zealous mod you are gaining the benefits constantly while you are attacking. If you want to see the difference between energy gain with and without it, simply go to a practice dummy. Use a normal weapon without an energy or a zealous mod and go though your entire attack chain until you hit zero energy. When you hit zero, stop using skills and time how long it takes to get your energy back to full.
Next use a zealous mod and repeat to zero energy. Continue attacking a new dummy with regular hits, or with your IAS activated if you use one in your build, and time how fast your energy gets back to full.
Then use logic to determine if a +5 mod will beat the effects of the zealous.
I haven't tried this myself, but I imagine the zealous will dominate the test.
Livingston
Kaleban
You need 3 actually.
Zealous for high energy attack chains.
Vampiric for chains that aren't as energy intensive, and with this mod can actually lead to a more stable kill, i.e. better chance of killing in one go.
Ebon. I say ebon because it can be used with Ebon Dust Aura, making most melee attackers useless, is elemental so bypasses +physical armor mods, and is one of the elements that classes with +elemental armor available usually forsake in favor of fire or lightning.
Zealous for high energy attack chains.
Vampiric for chains that aren't as energy intensive, and with this mod can actually lead to a more stable kill, i.e. better chance of killing in one go.
Ebon. I say ebon because it can be used with Ebon Dust Aura, making most melee attackers useless, is elemental so bypasses +physical armor mods, and is one of the elements that classes with +elemental armor available usually forsake in favor of fire or lightning.
Bowstring Badass
Now that Shadow Prison is 10 energy I find myself needing a +5 energy set of daggers just to make sure i have enough energy to get my combos off.
Yanman.be
Start with BLS first now. Problem solved.
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livingston
A zealous mod destroys the gain of a +5 energy mod.
While in most cases this may be true, in a few specific builds the +5 energy mod might be MUCH better.
The reason? Moebius Strike + Critical Strike. Or Assassin's Promise + whatever. Thanks to Critical Strikes attribute, and the revamped Critical Eye and Critical Strike skills, Zealous may not be required so much anymore.
Don't get me wrong, I love my 15>50 Zealous Dragon Scythes of Fortitude, but my +5E Ebon Zodiac Daggers of Enchanting may actually be more useful in a variety of situations where I depend on certain skills for energy management, rather than Zealous or regen.
The reason? Moebius Strike + Critical Strike. Or Assassin's Promise + whatever. Thanks to Critical Strikes attribute, and the revamped Critical Eye and Critical Strike skills, Zealous may not be required so much anymore.
Don't get me wrong, I love my 15>50 Zealous Dragon Scythes of Fortitude, but my +5E Ebon Zodiac Daggers of Enchanting may actually be more useful in a variety of situations where I depend on certain skills for energy management, rather than Zealous or regen.
Yanman.be
But Kaleban...bringing skills to replace zealous sucks.
Shadows Assasin X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqube
Why do you carry sundering daggers? I'm not trying to sound sarcastic or anything; it's just that, with the preponderance of evidence showing that it's not as useful for us as it is for the other melee classes, I don't understand why you'd put it on a pair of daggers when you could use something else that would give you so much more damage.
In the long run, Sunder would help do more damage. Stealing 3 life each hit maybe good for the BoA. But he is only gonna be spiking a target real quick, then running the hell out in that case Vamp would be good. But if your constantly on a target using a moebius strike sin, it would probably be smarter to bring a Zealous or Sunder. I guess the point is it really depends on what your running.
Yanman.be
Sundering? Never.
Actually, vamp would be better for db/ms since you're hitting 24/7, and don't need to switch.
But zealous = always.
Actually, vamp would be better for db/ms since you're hitting 24/7, and don't need to switch.
But zealous = always.
Thom Bangalter
Sundering Owns yanman, especially on a guy that jumps in, does around 10 hits, and teleports out.
Kaleban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
Zealous (and other energy management) allows a sin to spam high damage skills, relatively speaking, the damage from the daggers is almost inconsequential.
For those who have crunched the numbers, and I salute them, its been PROVEN beyond doubt that Zealous, Vampiric and even Elemental daggers are far superior to Sundering.
And Yanman, I wasn't advocating building a build solely for e-management skills. I just meant that in the right build with certain skills, the need for zealous mods decreases dramatically. In my experience, this is usually the case only in PvE, since its much easier to design a PvE build geared more towards e-management, then it is to design one for PvP and remain competitive.
But to conclude and reiterate, Sundering is inferior to pretty much any mod available on daggers due to the low base damage and random 1/5 chance. Simple math to prove:
Max Dagger base damage: 17
20% Sundering chance = 17/5 = 3.4 damage
So if your roll is successful, you do an extra 3.4 damage. Statistically, that's only 1/5th of your hits, which means on average you do an extra 0.68 damage per hit.
Take vampiric, which does a 6 point swing (-3 from enemy, +3 to you) EVERY single hit. Or zealous, which combined with dual attacks and dual strikes, not only mitigates the cost of activating skills after the fact, but also increases energy regen whenever you're in combat.
In my case, I use Vampiric daggers to spike bosses and/or high priority targets, like monks. That extra 3 damage per hit does make a difference in guaranteeing a kill. I use Zealous for high energy attack combos and general use. I use Elemental daggers when facing extra physical resist mobs/warriors. I use Sundering to sell to ignorant noobs for mounds of cash!
Thom Bangalter
I like sundering to trigger on blades of steel, personally. I do not go around auto-attacking on a sin.
Takonic
I started to carry a bunch of daggers
Zealous = I find myself digging into my Mana often when I have a Chain thats largely mana intensive...helps with energy management quite well with the dual attacks
Vamp = Non-Mana extensive chain ? but have no need for Zealous as my chain are short, efficient and dont need mana like nuts, I could use the extra non-conditional damage...with IAS or not, these suckers can add that lil extra punch you need to finish the job
Elemental = easy, aint physical, HAH YOU WAMMOS!!
Sundering = NONE, these are conditional extra damage...why use them when we rip casters anyways...and physical stinks against Warriors anyways...
I never gave Enchanting a try...but I will test...whats good bout those babies though ?
sundering isnt bad but theres definately better choices for pvp and in pve...do what ever works for u
Zealous = I find myself digging into my Mana often when I have a Chain thats largely mana intensive...helps with energy management quite well with the dual attacks
Vamp = Non-Mana extensive chain ? but have no need for Zealous as my chain are short, efficient and dont need mana like nuts, I could use the extra non-conditional damage...with IAS or not, these suckers can add that lil extra punch you need to finish the job
Elemental = easy, aint physical, HAH YOU WAMMOS!!
Sundering = NONE, these are conditional extra damage...why use them when we rip casters anyways...and physical stinks against Warriors anyways...
I never gave Enchanting a try...but I will test...whats good bout those babies though ?
sundering isnt bad but theres definately better choices for pvp and in pve...do what ever works for u
Dahl
There's no such thing as "perfect" daggers. It varies so much on your build and how energy heavy you are.
You might need +5 energy, 15^50, zealous, vamp, enchant, armor, fort, and there are a LOT of combinations with those mods.
Me personally, I have a pair especially for energy management, +5e and zealous. Then I have my all-out damage pair, which is 15^50 vamp. Then I have my Minor damage/energy management which is 15^50 and zealous. Etc Etc.
I have actual statistics of vamp/sunder comparison. ALL weapons with vamp deal more damage than sundering, with the exception of axes. (Yes, I hate to admit it, because I hate sundering, but numbers are numbers. Axes benefit from sundering more than vampiric against ALL armor types, and the reason for this is the fact that critical hits always hit for max damage. What I mean by that is... You know axes are 6-28. Well, you can hit for 10, 16, 13, 25, etc etc. When you land a critical hit, it's ALWAYS the 28, then has a 150% damage bonus added onto it. However swords are only 22 max, so the critical isn't nearly as high)
It would take a long time for me to explain it THOROUGHLY but that was just to give you a rough idea.
But so then you get the idea that the lower the highest damage on a weapon is, the more vamp will do for you. Daggers only reach 17, so vamp is especially useful for them. Then the added double strike makes it that much better.
You might need +5 energy, 15^50, zealous, vamp, enchant, armor, fort, and there are a LOT of combinations with those mods.
Me personally, I have a pair especially for energy management, +5e and zealous. Then I have my all-out damage pair, which is 15^50 vamp. Then I have my Minor damage/energy management which is 15^50 and zealous. Etc Etc.
I have actual statistics of vamp/sunder comparison. ALL weapons with vamp deal more damage than sundering, with the exception of axes. (Yes, I hate to admit it, because I hate sundering, but numbers are numbers. Axes benefit from sundering more than vampiric against ALL armor types, and the reason for this is the fact that critical hits always hit for max damage. What I mean by that is... You know axes are 6-28. Well, you can hit for 10, 16, 13, 25, etc etc. When you land a critical hit, it's ALWAYS the 28, then has a 150% damage bonus added onto it. However swords are only 22 max, so the critical isn't nearly as high)
It would take a long time for me to explain it THOROUGHLY but that was just to give you a rough idea.
But so then you get the idea that the lower the highest damage on a weapon is, the more vamp will do for you. Daggers only reach 17, so vamp is especially useful for them. Then the added double strike makes it that much better.
Stormlord Alex
Dahl - you forgot Scythes. Sundering scythes are nasty too.
Regards, a fellow Sundering hater.
Regards, a fellow Sundering hater.
Tromurg
About sundering
It's little test I made.
Dagger Mastery: 15.
Weapon's damage mod: +15% conditional and +20% from customize.
Results:
Code:
It's little test I made.
Dagger Mastery: 15.
Weapon's damage mod: +15% conditional and +20% from customize.
Results:
Code:
Target armor level: 60 80 100 Crit. damage without sundering: 37 26 18 Crit. damage with 20% sundering: 45 34 26 Damage gain from 20% sundering: 8 8 8 Chance to hit sundering is 20%, so average damage gain from critical hits is 8/5 = 1.6 damage.
But you do not hit only criticals. That means average damage gain over all hits is even lower.
That's why I think, it's not wise to use sundering mod on daggers. Go for vampiric instead or switch between physical and ele damage daggers, if you want more damage. Lets say target is warrior with 80 AL vs ele damage and 100 vs physical then you do 8 more damage (if crit. Over all hits it's lower) to that target while using ele damage daggers. It's other way around vs. rangers of course.
Personally I use zealous daggers lately - because of my build. And I don't think +5 energy mod is any use of the fights are longer. Lets say it's long fight and my max energy is 40 or something... it's no use if I never get it over 20 during that fight. Maybe it's good in PvP and you need to use high amount of energy in short time.
pingu666
i think you need to hit consistantly over 100 for sunder tobe better than vamp
i do use sunder on my wammo, simply because im going for survivor title
i do use sunder on my wammo, simply because im going for survivor title
against
Mods aren't worth much. They don't really inflate prices like they used to. Use greens if you don't like the market.