We require a giant, player-based push towards promoting a better community.

The Guild Wars in-game public community appears to be in bad shape, does it not? It most certainly does to me. Who's fault is it? The better question is: Who's fault isn't it? Not all of us deteriorate it, yet not all of us help to improve it. However, the number of those who actively attempt to help restore the life of the public are apparently too few, and this is why I am here, making this attempt towards improve it! Yet, I cannot do it alone.

What are the problems we are facing?

I am not going to pretend that I know the exact problems with the community, or if some are really problems. I merely have my own logic and morals to go by. However, as my prime example, I shall use something that really stands out as a glaring flaw. This is the obvious neglegance towards the Party Search Window. The poor new feature is absolutely ignored! Why? Are people not trading? Wait, no! People are still spamming in Local! Is nobody in the outpost there to do the mission? Wrong again! People are still spamming for parties in complete disarray! What in the world is wrong here? Let's look at another could-be problem...

Leavin' and leechin'. Poor, poor Random Arenas. Its image has been scarred with the belief that leaving is common, or maybe even acceptable! Is it? It shouldn't be. Now, here's the problem. While penalizing players for doing so would help to prevent this, it also harms those players that have honest reasons and exceptions. It is the actions of the community as a whole that affect what the community experiences. I respect ArenaNet for not prodding into flaws that are simply decisions of the community, and although I wish they would somehow manage to push a little sense into the players, would I honestly expect it to work? Let me ask this: Would I expect the common public to follow simple suggestions made by the proper authority figures? I don't see everyone driving under the speed limit -- Keyword: Limit. That's as fast as you should go. Does it happen? Pffffff! Even I am guilty of it.

So what is the true problem here? I'll be damned if I know for certain. We are faced with a myriad of difficulties and flaws. However, while we certainly cannot have a 100% fix of every problem imaginable, we can all take strong yet simple steps towards improving them altogether. I suggest that the true problem we face is a "Quality of life" problem. Keep a window broken, and another window breaks. More windows begin breaking, and then punks start breaking windows on purpose, yet unopposed, because it is seen as the norm, and it is believed that nobody will do anything about it. Who would want to live in that neighborhood? Well, people have to. The real problem is this "Broken Window theory" (Note: An actual theory used in criminology), where minor collective problems are not tended to, and then it slowly declines into the point where no small group of people could hope to replace all of the windows themselves -- They must begin promoting the replacement of these windows simply by doing what they can towards bettering the community, as well as spreading the word to those willing to listen. Eventually, people will start fixing their own situation to compliment the rest of the community, and those little miscreants that break windows on purpose will be actively shunned upon.


What can we do to improve this? Let me say this clearly: We must begin caring about our community. We would certainly not do it all at once, nor would we gain immediate results. Instead, each willing participant must start as soon as possible, and be consistant with it! We, the players, can actively help promote the productive alternatives and quality-of-life issues that benefit the community as a whole in hopes that it catches on. We can help to sway the accepted norms, little by little. Go ahead, use that Party Search function! Dead swords? End-game armor on a character I never use? Who needs 'em! You could even try using that Elite skill that does not look appealing. You may be surprised to find how practical it may be!


Oh, one last thing... (Snip! This paragraph removed because I'm an idiot)
Edit: I have removed and replaced a great deal of the nonsensial, confusing and irrelevant content in my original post. This change is active beginning at post #61. There shall be responses before that reply which are irrelevant to this discussion)

Doesn't seem to be in too bad of shape to me...

So what's the point of this thread?

Guild Wars has more than 1 million players. One or two...even twenty people being nice and kind can't change the overall atmosphere of the game.

It's the internet, and we are human. Just accept that people can be mean, ignore them, and move on.

Yeah and rules are rules...no need to follow them

Laws are just laws...no need to follow them either.

Don't say that the internet(games included) and real life aren't colliding, cuz they are. Just because you don't THINK that the person on the other side of that screen can harm you or get to you doesn't mean they can't. It also doesn't make it okay to be an ass. Ignoring it, is exactly why it is getting worse, especially in America.

EDIT: and you're wrong about a few not being able to help change the problem. Just last night AC AD1 went from being full of spamming rude "jerks" into a nice hour long conversation. Some of the jerks joined in and showed that there is hope for them the others did finally leave or at least shut up. Some people just don't know any better way to do things because all they see is the BS and the spamming. 3 brought over, that's 3 more to hopefully pass it on.

Stuff like this drives me crazy. I'm not a farmer, but just like real life, some people like to spend time accumulating wealth (farmers), where others like to be free spirits, and still others work their hand to the bone just for the love of work (grinders). Bottom line is people play the game the way they want to enjoy it, which is what makes guild wars appeal to so many people. Want to go after a title...go for it. Want to farm ecto...go for it. Want to PvP and come up with new builds...go for it.

You question what the problems of the community are. I'll admint that there can be jerks in the game and you bring up some valid pionts, but let's just say that having a narrow mind about how the game should be played isn't much better than some of the other things in your post. It's a game for crying out loud. How can you say that a farmer doesn't earn what he/she gets? They spent the time to do it didn't they.

Just because you don't like to farm, doesn't mean others should feel "guilty" for doing so. By your argument, technically anyone playing the game should not feel justified in how they are using their time since others may not think it is necessary either. Bottom line is the game is there for people to have fun, however they see fit that doesn't break the rules. Last time I checked there was nothing in the EULA against farming.

And the OP explains in the next sentence:

The OP has valid points and doesn't blow smoke up our collective holes saying that there is a magical fix.

The surest way to start improving things is by reducing a lot of the things that drive people up the wall to the point of avoiding any community involvement.

My community involvement is right here on these forums. When I get in game, I take my Heroes and Henchmen and never cross paths with another player.

Do I think this is ideal? No. But, it's what I do, it seems the least painful, more efficient way to play.

I don't know why my playstyle is like this in Guild Wars, it wasn't in WoW, DAoC, AC2, Horizons and the other games I played. I grouped a lot in those games, even though PuG's never were considered an elite ideal in any game, they were often fun. I'm sure they can be fun in Guild Wars, though for some reason I am not PuG'ing or grouping with other players, for that matter.

But, in Guild Wars, I have Heroes...and they rock.

The rest of the community...the trade thing. It's silly, people are buying overpriced vanity items and spending way too much time doing it in open chat. Trade spam along with the smack talk seems to be the only thing in general chat.

To turn this around people have to stop crapping in their own nests and ANet needs to help as well:

-Trade House functions

-Making player groups worthwhile again

-Releasing the next chapter without diluting the community once again

It's tough, when I log on, I know no one and have played with no one...where do I start?

Everyone is going 10,000 different directions.

Well, what else can I say? I feel that this is just the way Guild Wars is, and has nearly always been. The competitive atmosphere helps little, if not worsen it.

I ignore the a-holes for a reason. I've tried on numerous occassions to talk to people who are being "an ass". All of their responses have been them literally ignoring me via. the list. Can't change a douchebag. I think the biggest problem with all this has to do with people not caring more than anything.

I would love it if there was a rating system of sorts in GW. Time spent AFK in AB etc, the number of times you log- or map out from a mission, maybe an inclusion for spamming the same thing repeatedly. It could be automatically done, or by any moderators if they were employed. Too fiddly and unreliable to happen, but it would certainly motivate players not to screw the game up for others. And would help decent players choose the right people for their party.

As for community input, just either turn off local chat and use ignores, or tolerate what's being said. And be pleasant, either way.

So, what you are saying is that spamming and being a jerk online is equivalent to murder? Murder is against the law, right?

Wrong. That's a ridiculous juxtaposition.

The OP is refering to the community as a whole, not the forums. The forums are generally polite (although certain users and moderators may find it ironic that I'm saying that). Obviously, the in-game community is worse, and is that the OP wants to fix.

So, you want to remove the right of privacy completely? Maybe that proposed screen should list your name and address too, just to confirm that you are playing on an American server...

I would like to address this post before it drives the topic away from my original intention.

Like I said, please do not get me started on the subject of Farming. All I have at the moment are my own thoughts, morals and logic. Just as well, I have yet to come up with a full, iron-clad argument against farming that can pursuade in a friendly manner. I have a very strong stance against Farming, and any argument I may leak prematurely is damn sure to be a cynical one.

I bring this up because this community problem is just that -- A problem with and to the community. We suffer together because we do not act together. My prime example that I shall base this on is the Party Search window. If the majority of the players used it properly, then all of us will benefit from the organization, coordination and efficiency. Parties for missions and trade agreements will be formed more quickly, and with less hassle. That's why it was added, is it not? It's irrational to avoid it the way we are! Why must the general public share the view that "nobody uses that feature, so it's worthless to even try"?

Hey, hold those zingers long enough to understand what I was saying:

My sense of community in Guild Wars is only within these forums and does not exist in-game for me.

Trade is obviously a very big part of Guild Wars for many players, ANet needs to better support that facet of the game because it impacts everyone.

Right now we have the equivalence of homeless people in every outpost, they have to do all their "business" on the street out in the open.

From what I see, the bulk of in-game player interaction are trade related activities.

Surely details about how some players disrupt the game for others isn't a breach of privacy? I apologise is this statement seems flippant, I admit I'm not exactly well versed in personal privacy laws and such. But surely this is on par with removing guild tags for privacy reasons.

I just don't see how allowing other players to know that you constantly leach in AB or spend all your time spamming offensive language in local chat is a bad thing.

And I suppose, [Vyldan], that the mindset is "noone else is using the party search so they won't see if I do." It sucks.

Why even start the topic if that's how you feel? It's not A-net's responsibility to baby-sit people who happen to play their game. And if everyone feels like "there's nothing that can be done," then their negativism is only adding to the problem. I said it in a different thread about this same subject: A little self-policing is needed. Ignoring the problems is nothing more than implied consent.

1. I don't care about people using the WTS/WTB in trade chat - it's hard to change the habit over to the Party window for many (but I see more and more ads showing up there in LA and Kamadan). When someone is spamming, I speak up, politely and publicly. I have yet to have someone respond negatively to my statements. If it happens, I'm prepared for that, too.

2. Never get upset in a PUG. Usually PUG failures are the result of people not listening, or thinking they know better than anyone else how to do something. When I'm in a PUG that fails because of these things, (and I when I DO know the mission) I explain to whoever hasn't bailed upon return to outpost why it went wrong and how to fix it. (Grand Court of Sebelkah, anyone?)

3. As for Farming, to each his own. I farm titles. Others farm gold & weapons. One of the biggest factors that affects the economy is player turn over. There are always new players coming on the scene with very little and there are always people with tons of gold, high-end weapons and armor who leave the game. Other than the vanity skins, prices for everything has been fairly stable over the past 22 months.

I don't particularly like communities in general, too many dicks like me running around.

I do think the OP,s original post was well thought out, and signifies that there are people that care enough about GW to try and help. That's all well and good, but it won't change a thing.

Likely scenario: This thread gets buried in less than a week amongst the PvP vs PvE, I want a mini Gwen and How do I make money threads that so many idiots seem to enjoy spamming us with.

Good Luck tho Vyldan!

KANE

Everyone is free to play the game the way they choose. If people want to be morons then let them, I for one couldn't care less.

It's in bad shape because of people like you spreading gloom and domm threads. gg

I don't get it or care People are entitled to their opinions. Nothing will change that.

Why start the topic? Because this is another one of my contributions towards helping. I'm not here to whine and complain about things that cannot be changed, I'm here in an attempt to pursuade others to begin taking action, perhaps influence friends, and maybe even change their minds.
True, the actions of the community are not ArenaNet's responsibility. That is why I said I respect that they are not taking measures towards doing so. That is why I created this topic. Only the community can change the community, and I feel this topic may help push that change for the better. We need to motivate the players. This forum contains a large collection of players.

The problem is not the Trade chat, it's the trade requests in the Local chat. People do not use the Trade channel regularly, either, despite it being detrimental to avoid it. People seem to be misguided, thinking only that the Local channel receives more attention. There are many, many more factors than that, and these factors are ignored. Ignored not out of stupidity or ignorance, but just out of a lack of forethought. Unfortunately, a lack of forethought seems to be a common trait, and irrational choices are made and promoted.

I do not get upset at PUGs for trivial reasons. I am upset with the general mentality that is displayed in PUGs: "It is acceptable to leave without warning. It is acceptable to..." Et cetera. The point being, I can sit through ten mission attempts, and have each mission contain three players that leave without warning simply because a couple people died, and not get angry at a single instance of someone leaving. The thing that angers me in that scenario is the simple fact that three people have left each time in ten games.

QFT. I don't think GW's community is any better or any worse then the rest of the internet. People going around saying "GW is doomed and full of horrible people" cause people to precieve that it is so.

Very true, but why do so many...seem to flourish in Guild Wars?

But, I don't classify them as "morons",

-Trade spamming in general chat isn't the problem, but a symptom

-Decrease in pick-up-groups aren't the problem, but a symptom

-Player population gaps across the three chapters isn't the problem, but a symptom

To me, the cause of these issues, first and foremost, springs from game design decisions that ANet has made over the last 2 campaigns. People react accordingly, and here we are.

Some of my ideas that might help:

-Give player in-game trade a home so it doesn't have to "accost people on the streets" as much as it does now.

-Work to reverse trends that discourage people from grouping and interacting with each other

-Don't expand the universe in ways that diminishes current population centers and crossroads

The trading spam is just a whole different nearly unsolvable problem:

1. People spam like crazy in the Trade channel.
2. People turn off Trade channel because of trade spam.
3. People spamming in Trade channel spam in Local channel because most people have turned off Trade channel.
4. People turn off Local channel because of trade spam.

I think the Party Search was made for just this reason, so people can still look for groups even with the Local chat off.

However, there is one thing that could definantly save the spam problem, and that's an auction house.

But of course, that would be too much trouble, wouldn't it?

People who adept to the current situationno matter how hard or hostile will flourish, those that can't adept come here and moan.

Please read the entire post if you're going to reply. D:

As you may have noted in all of my posts, I only post facts as facts, and clearly indicate my opinions as my own. The fact of the matter here is that it is, quite literally, impossible to make everyone happy busy-bodies that make rational decisions at every twist and turn. What I wish to see is a push towards promoting actions and mentalities that better benefit the community as a whole. The stronger the support, the less strength from the words of nay-sayers.

Unfortunately, an Auction House would be an example of ArenaNet stepping in and attempting to subdue community-based problems. While it would be nice, it will only spawn more problems. I can already assume that players would avoid the Auction House, as well, for several community-based reasons.

Conversations like these make me want to yell on my soap box about some of these kids in-game to be chained to a desk in school because they aren't learning a thing.

As for myself, I must warn that I am insane, I can pretty much turn into a ADD freak with no brain whatsoever at will, and at the same time be pretty acceptable within the social norms. Most of the time I bare within the middle, joke here and there, some "durka durka noob", and zomgwtfbbq some ppl who just can't play their character for beans... its all relevant to how people act in local chat or trade spammage as well. If one can't understand why they suck, or why someone tells them they are over pricing something, trying to rip someone off, and other similar situations you get a nice "stfu noob" or some other jabber jabber from one of the many 12 year old acting fools around in this game.


I can't tell you the solution, I can only suggest for unrealistic tutorials that FORCE players to pass a test of competence to be allowed in a PUG, to trade, or do anything remotely related to other players on the internet. But when you ponder the effects of that, you would realize that within a week or so after release of such a change, you'd see guides.... GUIDES on how to be competent to pass the test. And stupid ppl will read it, remember it for the test, and forget quickly afterwards.

An example of such a situation is when players fail to ascend at Augry Rock. And seriously, you need either not care about the game, be stupid, or have no clue on how the game mechanics work together to not ascend at 20. Never mind being able to ascend a character at lvl 11 with little to no skills, and basic armor = that takes skill that I have been able to prove (i know other people have done it at lower lvls as well - don't bug me about the example).

Its the test like that where you're supposed to know how to beat yourself to prove to the Gods your worthy, and many just cheat, and learn nothing. Its comparable to beating the game for the first time after being ran across the whole game from the start...but lets not get into that sticky convo..

The reason people keep spamming what their selling is because that text doesn't stay there. They have to keep reminding people that they're selling this particular item. If they had an auction house, said item would just sit there in the display box, not bothering anybody, waiting for a buyer.

But what're the community-based reasons people wouldn't use an Auction house? Sounds like a great and helpful idea, to me.

I adapted, I play solo.

No online gaming company can base it's future on a playerbase made up of solo players. I mean, why not release a solo game with updates, no game servers needed?

Am I saying no one ever groups at all anymore? No. Just voicing my observations on what I see as a decrease in player interaction in PvP, in groups and in, well, community. Communities thrive when they come together for mutual benefit. Diminish the benefit, diminish the community.

It's not the caliber of people, the same people play Guild Wars that play the other games. Besides, it would be ignorant to paint a whole mass of people with one brush, so I don't.

Wait, why do you think players would avoid an auction house? Do GW players have an aversion to additions that would greatly improve the game?

Regarding your points about the community at large: Frankly, GW is best enjoyed with an active, competent guild. The game does little to promote a sense of community (instanced everything, impersonal public areas) and the community does little to change this, as you noted. This isn't a design flaw; it's how the game was designed. Guilds provide meaningful PvP (even if you’re not an uber guild), a trustworthy way of trading items, and players who can help you complete missions.

I'm not disagreeing with your points (I think you're mostly correct), it's just that little of this affects me now that I have a guild to play with.

Because of PvP.

Without that, it probably wouldn't hurt to go off-line.

Yes, that text does not stay there, and people join after it is said, completely missing the message. This is very likely to be the reason why the Party Search Window was implimented. It stays, does it not? People can join and check previous entries, can they not? This is why I use the Party Search Window as my prime example. I would say it is practically 99% better than any current in-game methods that we have, yet look at how it is being ignored. Also, I am not going to expand upon my Auction House comment. It's merely a gut feeling I have.

Oh dear. You say that as if it were a fact.

I am certain that none of us know and understand every little detail in this game. I can tell you, however, that I do not think a single player-like campaign is not ArenaNet's intention.

It's not their intention, but that's what it's coming to. PUGs are dying. It's harder to find one and even harder to rely on one. However, I will say it is easier to find one early on in the campaigns. But after that things start to get nasty.

Aside from that, PvE is becoming boring as a whole. There's little to no strategy in it. I'm sure PvP will look much less appealing as well when Fury is released.

That's also not what we are discussing.

So the lack of involvement in PUGs doesn't affect the Guild Wars community?

Actually, it was brought up in the context of the overall community issue which is much more than just too much trade spam and people not using party search. It involves every type of player interaction in the game, or the lack, there of...

A malaise, if you will, an indifference that's settled into the community.

Wait, wait, wait... Like I mentioned, we appeared to be going off-topic. Perhaps I am just misinterpreting what is being said after post #28. Let the conversation continue before I attempt to intervene again.

At first glance no, 20 people can't change the way guild wars works. Then I realized that it only took one person to realize " hey, protective bond with 55 health? this works pretty damn good." and BAM the monk profession was actually excting. Honestly I don't agree with the farming portion of the post. Without farming there wouldn't be an economy. If you are a casual gamer go play Runescape or better yet counterstrike. The search function however should be used. Nowadays, the "local" channel in dead areas is quiet and pointless and in populated areas it is flooded and useless. This in effect makes the only difference between Ice Tooth Cave International and Temple of Ages Dis 1 the letters, LFG, EXP, SS, and 55.

My thoughts.



Ok so trade spam is usually the worst in dis1, so we could ban it in all the others. instead of that message that you are spamming, it could just move you to dis1.
Yeah Yeah it will fill up, but GW can deal with that. or better yet, they loose 1 gold for every line repeated and each person that is on the map. and this gold goes to everyone on the map.

What i been doing is turn off chat and trade chat.
When i get to the main towns and find i have something to sell, i spam it a few times. i dont even notice, cos they are turned off. If someone wants it they pm me.
and if i want to buy something, i turn on the chat, then pm the seller, no problem.
and plus most the spam is in towns where you dont really need to make a party anyway, just get to a mission and there isnt as much spam.

The [P] key works wonders, some times i spam for people to press [P].

An idea, let people enter missions from the guild hall. I could elaborate on this but others can too.

Another idea. when people log into a new town have the party window already open (can turn this off in options). I think alot of people just dont know about it. Come on devs, if ya want something used have it on by default. Design 101.

oh someone mentioned a offline version. cant be done, if they give you the code, people will set up their own servers. not good for the GW cos these servers dont have to check if you have a legal copy. it does get annoying sometimes when im lagging and im the only one playing tho...

ok next issue. the kids.
the reason there ar lots of kids in this game is cos its free to play. not alot of kids can afford the play subscription games. So they get a game like guildwars for xmas or what ever.

ok now i dont need to say whats wrong with all the kids, but i do want to say its not all of em. there are some really nice ones in there.

I vote to put a password protection on the chat filter, so the kids cant turn it off when they arnt being watched.

Also i think all these MMO's should be over 18 rated. if the screenshots on the box had the chat that goes on in RA i dont think alot of parents would buy the game.

But its not all that bad, i think most these rude people in RA are actually the kids. Ive started messaging people if they something rude. I usually just say "please mind the language there are kids about"
and more than half the replies are something like "Im only ****ing 12 you ****er".



Peace.

Of course end-game armor isn't necessary. No one is making you get it if you don't want it. The dwarf brothers down at Droknars will be more than happy to suit you up with max stats.

But I like end game and high end armor. Why? Because I like the feeling of purpose you get when saving up and farming towards the end goal you have in mind. I like the feeling of farming together with my friends, snickering good-naturedly when one person gets a lame drop, and cheering when someone gets a windfall. I like the feeling of working with my friends towards a common goal as we support each other. Even solo farming is fun--a lot of the solo farming builds are challenging and take time to learn to do well, and it's bound to generate fun and laughs in guild chat when you wail about the umpteenth time you've died trying a build.

In the end, there's that final awesome feeling you get when you and your friends plow through FoW, gleefully chop the heads off the Shadow Army, clean the furnace of those pesky spiders, and get that FoW armor crafted. High-end armor is just another manifestation of titles. It's something you work hard to get, and when you do get it, you have the right to be proud to show it off. Most importantly, you have the memories of how you got it together with your friends, as well as taking on the challenge of solo farming on your own.

All because you "can't see how farmers think that their use of time feels justified at all" doesn't mean that farmers don't enjoy it. That's the whole point of playing this game--for fun. If people who liked farming needed to "justify" why spent their time doing so, you might as well accuse all guild wars players of having no "justification" for playing the game in the first place instead of doing something more productive.

I'm glad you view the entire act of farming as "unnecessary" and that farmers cannot "justify" their actions, as if they were guilty of something. Here's a revolutionary idea for you to try out: just don't do or think about it. And while you're at it, step off your self-righteous, yet lame-legged horse, and realize that farmers can bloody well farm if they enjoy it--that is justification enough.

Really, if you were against bots, I'd understand, but legitimate farmers are perfectly fine.

Pff, community isn't that bad IMO, I don't meet many jerks at all, and i still PUG on a regular basis. If a team sucks I leave after trying or beforehand is the team setup utterly sucks. PvP can be a little harsh sometimes, ppl can be quite blunt every now and then, but thats more because they don't want to waste time.

As for jerks, theres 2 things you can do, leave (It's not that we NEED jerks do we?) or be a bigger jerk, which is just hilarious sometimes. Like yesterday I was PUGing a masters attempt in ruins of morah. Teamleader flamed the living crap out of me because of 2 deaths while we were doing perfectly fine. He went on like WTF are you doing when I tanked Varesh, so I said: 'kill her yourself' and put on /dance. When they were almost overwhelmed by Varesh I quickly jumped in and finished her with a nifty hammer combo. If people want to make me sweat they end up sweating harder .

Why don't people use the Party Search Window?
Wizard's First Rule.

Why won't people use an Auction house?
Same reason.

If we want to clean up GW and get an acceptable level of behaviour in public places, we do need to take action.

I've suggested in a couple of other threads that we implement a /ban function when someone spams or uses insulting or bad language in public. It doesn't go into action immediately, but once a certain number of complaints have been filed against a person, it disables his local chat channel for 1 minute. More complaints, and it disables longer. And it's cumulative.

I agree.

The game itself is great, but its sad that they don't provide better support to raise a better community standard. More happy players = a much better game experience.

You're not improving community interaction by giving us bonus weekends and the occasional skill buff...