Birthday Presents for accounts

??Evan??

??Evan??

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Tombs

In Soviet Russia Altar Caps You [CCCP]/Ruthless Amazons [ego]

W/E

I think people should receive presents for every 12 months their account has been active.

Why?
Some of us have been playing 22 months but have just deleted older characters to make room when it was much needed with only 4 character slots.
Just an opinion, please reply whether it be negative or positive.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8233/agero8.jpg

Zinger314

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

It's your fault you deleted the characters, not ArenaNet's. Live with it. It's not like you missed a one million dollar oppertunity...

??Evan??

??Evan??

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Tombs

In Soviet Russia Altar Caps You [CCCP]/Ruthless Amazons [ego]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
It's your fault you deleted the characters, not ArenaNet's. Live with it. It's not like you missed a one million dollar oppertunity...
I didn't say it wasn't my fault I am just suggesting rewards for account age

tomcruisejr

tomcruisejr

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by ¿Evan¿
I think people should receive presents for every 12 months their account has been active.

Why?
Some of us have been playing 22 months but have just deleted older characters to make room when it was much needed with only 4 character slots.
Just an opinion, please reply whether it be negative or positive.
Rewards should be account based too, like +1000 fame on your account.

Zinger314

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by ¿Evan¿
I didn't say it wasn't my fault I am just suggesting rewards for account age
There is a reward for account age. Your account has to be 12 months old for your character to be 12 months old, correct? Thus, it's transverse.

Roshi_ikkyu

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Mo/W

I would agree with something small and trivial.

How about a mini pig.


But the real reward should go to Characters that reach 2years.

ok maybe a tax break 10k for an account!

scrinner

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Well it could get flawed for example, on the accounts birthday the person can keep recreating characters to get birthday gifts thus creating an endless supply of gifts... But i guess with a one day age req, it could work out well But yeah i guess i Have to go with Zinger on this one

VitisVinifera

VitisVinifera

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Northern California

HoTR

N/Me

after the 1 year bday present, that should have been everyone's clue that you shouldn't delete characters

when the 1 year mini pets were introduced, I felt some sympathy for people who had just deleted their characters. That was almost a year ago. I don't hold that sympathy for anyone since then.

Cherno

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Stars of Destiny

E/

So you are recommending presents based on ACCOUNT age, correct? Which of your characters would receive this present? And that would mean that you only get one since your ACCOUNT only reaches that age once. So all the other characters are SOL? Really a poorly thought out proposal, as in, you haven't thought out anything it would seem. Basically you are just mad that you get nothing because you delete characters.

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

Since Guild Wars characters are "disposable" it is somewhat odd that it is the character birthdays that get you gifts and not the account. Also, consider the fact that owning more than one campaign merits nothing as well.

If you look at the Guild Wars game manuals and FAQ's, you are encouraged to delete characters when you want to try something new. So, it presents a little bit of a disconnect in my opinion.

Shakti

Shakti

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2006

Home...

Vier Reiter [Vier]

...haven't we had this debate a few times before? It never goes well....I have a bad feeling about this...

VitisVinifera

VitisVinifera

Banned

Join Date: Nov 2005

Northern California

HoTR

N/Me

we have shakti, and there are two ways of looking at this, each with its own logic

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

I don't see ANet changing this and it isn't posed as a suggestion, more as an observation. If things could be rewound, on the account's birthday a gift would be "given" to the oldest character on that account.

This would have rewarded longevity while not inadvertently penalizing those people who took advantage of the re-inventive nature of the game.

But, the deed is done, stranger things than this have become staples of tradition.

Narcism

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2005

Ottawa, ON, Canada

Mostly Harmless

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherno
So you are recommending presents based on ACCOUNT age, correct? Which of your characters would receive this present? And that would mean that you only get one since your ACCOUNT only reaches that age once. So all the other characters are SOL? Really a poorly thought out proposal, as in, you haven't thought out anything it would seem. Basically you are just mad that you get nothing because you delete characters.
Of course, you aren't referring to the fact that distributing a single reward to an account isn't possible.

See Grey Giant, See CE Pets.

Knightsaber Sith

Knightsaber Sith

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Few Fallen Heroes [FFH]

W/E

I think the main presents should be for character age. But maybe there could be a biannual or even triannual account birthday present that was a smaller gift than the character birthday presents, like maybe just a title.

Pwny Ride

Pwny Ride

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Aussieland

Prime Players Of [OSHA] ~ [dth] alliance. <3

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith
I think the main presents should be for character age. But maybe there could be a biannual or even triannual account birthday present that was a smaller gift than the character birthday presents, like maybe just a title.
I agree with that. Not a gift every once a year but rather once every two for three years, its fair. I can't see why this should'nt be implemented. A title sounds great, its simple and people would generally gain respect from it moreso than the whole year old character thing.

The problem is, for me that the whole keeping characters for years thing, is that when chapters are released with better hairstyles, face models etc. you grow bored of looking at your character (i mean chalk pale necros arent a trend anymore )

Account based > character based

pork soldier

pork soldier

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakti
....I have a bad feeling about this...
*takes a shot*

oh wait, this isn't the starwars drinking game, my bad.

seriously, birthday gifts are a reward for old characters, it's a nice touch for people who keep their characters for the long term.

Matsumi

Matsumi

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Oh well, minipets just take up space anyway, kind of like old characters. I have 4 so far, and can't figure out where to put them sometimes.

arcanemacabre

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

If there's an account birthday present, it needs to be PvP-based, like 10k Balth Faction each year. Honestly, because they are the ones who would delete their characters most often, and not have any characters that old.

MirageMaster

MirageMaster

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2007

EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinger314
It's your fault you deleted the characters, not ArenaNet's. Live with it. It's not like you missed a one million dollar oppertunity...
So true! its your own fault,please cry some more.I care about my character and i wont delete them cause i care about them unlike some.No bank will reward you for having 2 year old account.Bday presents for characters is the reward for players dedication to the character.

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by MirageMaster
So true! its your own fault,please cry some more.I care about my character and i wont delete them cause i care about them unlike some.No bank will reward you for having 2 year old account.Bday presents for characters is the reward for players dedication to the character.
It's amazing that someone, the OP in this case, can state an opinion without resorting to drama or emotion, and people still feel the need to respond in a demeaning manner. And, it's not a way to make a point. So, letting loose with zingers and one liners can be quick but not very substantive.

A game account isn't the same as a bank account, so a comparison doesn't hold any value.

Characters aren't money, the account is money. Each account represents a game sold and purchased. Creating new characters essentially increases the life cycle of the game content when juxtaposed with players that only play one or only a few characters.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but ANet is better off if more people delete and re-roll characters instead of just playing a few characters before making demands for more content. Character slots are usually far less in number than all possible profession combinations.

It is curious why ANet decided to reward character longevity versus account and campaign longevity. There's nothing wrong with discussing such things, this is a forum, after all.

Rhedd

Rhedd

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

You ever have to clean up after a Moa bird?

True Solunastra [SLA] Profession: Moa Wrangler

Maybe because there's nothing really special about having an account that's a year or two old?

People that play individual characters that long, however, get rewarded for their unique connection to their characters, the world, and the game.

stealthslicer

stealthslicer

Academy Page

Join Date: Dec 2006

Reign Of Shadows [RoS]

P/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
Rewards should be account based too, like +1000 fame on your account.
lmao What good would that do!
There would just be loads more people with higher rank so it would be even harder for new people to start HA.

Ferret

Ferret

Elite Guru

Join Date: Jul 2005

England

Ferrets Unity of Rogues (FUR)

R/Mo

To be honest, i agree that it is character based, NOT account based.

I still have two characters from the early days of GW when only four slots were available and still play them both, in fact they are pretty much my main characters (despite now having another 8 too).

I think that keeping characters alive and not deleting them to make some change (due to new appearences and the like) or getting bored deserves more than just having an account for the same amount of time.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

It is curious why ANet decided to reward character longevity versus account and campaign longevity. There's nothing wrong with discussing such things, this is a forum, after all.
example

a person buys chapter 1 and creates characters then has spent the last 20 months playing wow and not giving Anet a single penny.

why should they get a reward for simply buying the game?

when i create a character i think what will be fun to play and stay with those characters.

Anet decided that a bday present for my kind of player would be nice and did it.

no rewards for simply buying the game as the fun playing the game is your reward

raven214

raven214

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferret
I think that keeping characters alive and not deleting them to make some change (due to new appearences and the like) or getting bored deserves more than just having an account for the same amount of time.
I started playing about 2 weeks after GW's release. I deleted my first character just over a year ago -- not because I was bored with him, but because I wanted a different hairstyle (not sure if I missed the other one when I first created him, or if I was just caught up in the new experience of GW). It was no easy decision to remake him -- I had been thinking about it off and on literally for months because his age+experiences were important to me as he was my first and main character -- anything I had done in GW was first done by him. I had no idea about minipets or birthday presents in general. Since there wasn't a barber NPC, I finally remade him... with all the same features save for the hairstyle.

Now he's just turned a year old (got a mini siege turtle). He's completed everything from before and then some, but his 2nd b-day won't come til next year. I only have 1 other of my "original" characters, but I completely take responsibility for restarting/making the new ones. I guess I'm mostly unhappy about the no barber/hairstylist NPC, but as for the account vs. character age question, there are good arguments for both sides. Maybe we should get something for both?

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loviatar
example

why should they get a reward for simply buying the game?
Actually, I already gave an answer to that question in the same post you are quoting me from...

As for, "a person" that "buys chapter 1 and creates characters then has spent the last 20 months playing wow and not giving Anet a single penny"; well, what's the difference in that regard?

My argument is based on the idea that ANet gets more "bang for its buck" if players stay occupied for a longer period playing released content. Releasing content is an investment and game publishers want it to last long enough without having to rush out new content before they have fully exhausted the "gold mine" of older content.

And, which type of players gets more "use" from the published content? I'd say that it's more likely the person that rerolls characters. People who create characters and never re-roll them will limit their exposure to the content and "need" to have ANet provide new content sooner, new content costs time and money.

bilateralrope

bilateralrope

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

New Zealand

Xen Of Onslaught (Xen of the Pacific division)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherno
Which of your characters would receive this present?
The same one that receives the mini-pet that came with the factions and nightfall CE's. For those that don't own either CE, it worked by not spawning the mini-pet until you used a specific command in game, then gave it to your current active character.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

My argument is based on the idea that ANet gets more "bang for its buck" if players stay occupied for a longer period playing released content. Releasing content is an investment and game publishers want it to last long enough without having to rush out new content before they have fully exhausted the "gold mine" of older content.

.
i honestly would like to know what idiot started the idea that a chapters content had to last until the next chapter comes out.

this is one thing in the game you have complete control over and takes a year to accomplish.

everybody bought the game so why reward them with a minipet that might be worth a fortune?

it is a characters birthday not an account birthday

different playstyles have different rewards.........simple concept

GWsketchies

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jan 2007

Quote:
My argument is based on the idea that ANet gets more "bang for its buck" if players stay occupied for a longer period playing released content. Releasing content is an investment and game publishers want it to last long enough without having to rush out new content before they have fully exhausted the "gold mine" of older content.

And, which type of players gets more "use" from the published content? I'd say that it's more likely the person that rerolls characters. People who create characters and never re-roll them will limit their exposure to the content and "need" to have ANet provide new content sooner, new content costs time and money.
I'll have to disagree with that. Technically if the players keep their characters longer, they'll eventually run out of character slots and have to visit the Arenanet store to buy more slots in order to try the other classes without having to delete their existing characters in order to be able to get their characters' birthday gifts. Thus the reason why birthday gifts are per character and not the account age. The more characters you want gifts for, the more slots you need to have/buy, therefore it is technically more advantageous for Anet to promote the "per character age" rewards as it promotes the purchase of extra character slots.

crimsonfilms

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

You give a free inch, they want a free mile.



*This assumes the mile has an actual use.

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loviatar
i honestly would like to know what idiot started the idea that a chapters content had to last until the next chapter comes out.

this is one thing in the game you have complete control over and takes a year to accomplish.
It's not an idea that started after the fact, it's more a founding principle off the game design and business model. The time frame, whether it's six months or 12 months doesn't matter, but ANet does need the released content to "last" long enough to suit their time tables. They freshen it up by releasing major updates in between expansions, for instance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loviatar
everybody bought the game so why reward them with a minipet that might be worth a fortune?

it is a characters birthday not an account birthday

different playstyles have different rewards.........simple concept
I think rewarding character longevity introduces more of these mini-pets into the game and kind of cheapens the reward.

If the rewards were account based, there would be only one gift per year.

And, I agree, people play the game in different ways, that's a good thing. One way people play the game is via the re-rolling of characters and trying out different profession combinations, avatar looks, starting chapters, etc. ANet even refers to the "ease" at which you can dispose of a character and not have to be tied down like in other games.

But, my point is that there seems to be a better reason to reward accounts than characters, that's all I'm saying.

Knightsaber Sith

Knightsaber Sith

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Few Fallen Heroes [FFH]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus
And, which type of players gets more "use" from the published content? I'd say that it's more likely the person that rerolls characters. People who create characters and never re-roll them will limit their exposure to the content and "need" to have ANet provide new content sooner, new content costs time and money.
I would say the opposite. People that don't re-roll and stick with their characters get more "use" from it. They take the time to go all the way through the game and then take the rest of the characters through the same. Sure, many people have deleted a character or two after completing a whole campaign if they decided they wanted different hair or any number of reasons. But it's not like anyone goes out of their way to complete a campaign, immediately delete that character then complete the campaign again and repeat ad infinitum. What usually happens when people constantly re-roll is that they do it less than a fifth of the way through the campaign because they're just so indecisive they're not sure what it is they want their characters to be. I wouldn't call that getting much use out of it.

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWsketchies
I'll have to disagree with that. Technically if the players keep their characters longer, they'll eventually run out of character slots and have to visit the Arenanet store to buy more slots in order to try the other classes without having to delete their existing characters in order to be able to get their characters' birthday gifts. Thus the reason why birthday gifts are per character and not the account age. The more characters you want gifts for, the more slots you need to have/buy, therefore it is technically more advantageous for Anet to promote the "per character age" rewards as it promotes the purchase of extra character slots.
Yes, that is one way ANet counters a trend in a sound business fashion, but I would guess more people delete characters than go purchase additional slots to create new ones. But, I am only guessing.

I have all 3 campaigns but haven't purchased any additional slots because there is usually at least one character I haven't got attached, too. I have left one Monk in Pre-Sear and will always have at least one there to help friends who start in the game there. If I had to predict my next character to get deleted it would be my warrior who just got to Post-Sear.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus
It's not an idea that started after the fact, it's more a founding principle off the game design and business model. The time frame, whether it's six months or 12 months doesn't matter, but ANet does need the released content to "last" long enough to suit their time tables. They freshen it up by releasing major updates in between expansions, for instance.
.
and that is where the time obsessed are flat wrong for GW.

they need repeat sales not continued play

they do not have a monthly fee and do not need constant play to keep revenue coming in.

all that is needed is that a PVE person who plays the quests/ missions/ explores feels that they really got their moneys worth of fun even if they only played a month before finishing that chapter.

they put it aside for 5 months and hear about the next *even better* chapter coming out.

they remember how much fun they got last chapter and get this one and beat it in a month and are wildly happy they got it.

want to bet they get the next one when it comes out?

repeat sales not the time played is their business model.

Jongo River

Jongo River

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

I completely agree with the OP. Gifts should be directed at slots and even stockpiled until a character is created. I won't lose sleep over that not being the case, but I certainly see how the current setup is frustrating to those who had no idea there were going to be perks for filling all slots immediately and never re-rolling them.

Afterall - are we being rewarded as loyal customers or obsessive geeks?

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith
I would say the opposite. People that don't re-roll and stick with their characters get more "use" from it. They take the time to go all the way through the game and then take the rest of the characters through the same. Sure, many people have deleted a character or two after completing a whole campaign if they decided they wanted different hair or any number of reasons. But it's not like anyone goes out of their way to complete a campaign, immediately delete that character then complete the campaign again and repeat ad infinitum. What usually happens when people constantly re-roll is that they do it less than a fifth of the way through the campaign because they're just so indecisive they're not sure what it is they want their characters to be. I wouldn't call that getting much use out of it.
The term "use" refers to mileage, if you will and not miles covered. The more a player is occupied with the content the better. If a player deletes every character before leaving Pre-Searing without seeing any other content, then that player still has "new" content remaining to discover. Players that suck the marrow out of the game arguably are doing so at a faster rate because they aren't re-rolling.

Additionally, those players may be less reluctant to play another character through the content they so readily devoured.

I am not saying one playstyle is superior to the other, only pointing it out from the perspective of a content provider regarding the consumers of their content.

If rewards are generally given to encourage certain behavior, it seems that ANet would seek to reward accounts and campaign ownership more so than a character's lifespan. And, aren't primarily PvP players kind of out in the cold with character longevity rewards?

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loviatar
and that is where the time obsessed are flat wrong for GW.

they need repeat sales not continued play

they do not have a monthly fee and do not need constant play to keep revenue coming in.

all that is needed is that a PVE person who plays the quests/ missions/ explores feels that they really got their moneys worth of fun even if they only played a month before finishing that chapter.

they put it aside for 5 months and hear about the next *even better* chapter coming out.

they remember how much fun they got last chapter and get this one and beat it in a month and are wildly happy they got it.

want to bet they get the next one when it comes out?

repeat sales not the time played is their business model.
Well, why reward a 2 year-old character if "time played" isn't the objective? And, I agree, time played isn't the objective. But, that's exactly why I feel the character longevity reward flies in the face of that concept.

Granted some people do park their characters for months between expansions, but most people keep playing, often re-rolling. People attracted to a "free to play" game do so because they can't or won't pay to play other games between chapter releases.

Also, ANet can't have a ghost-town and tumble-weeds greeting new adopters of the game, so having people re-rolling helps to revitalize at least some of the neglected areas.

If you look at the pros and cons of character longevity as a value you start to conclude that from the content provider's perspective, re-rollers are more beneficial to the game. Re-rollers effectively recycle the content and keep earlier content areas alive.

Knightsaber Sith

Knightsaber Sith

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Aug 2006

Few Fallen Heroes [FFH]

W/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus
The term "use" refers to mileage, if you will and not miles covered. The more a player is occupied with the content the better. If a player deletes every character before leaving Pre-Searing without seeing any other content, then that player still has "new" content remaining to discover. Players that suck the marrow out of the game arguably are doing so at a faster rate because they aren't re-rolling.

.......

If rewards are generally given to encourage certain behavior, it seems that ANet would seek to reward accounts and campaign ownership more so than a character's lifespan. And, aren't primarily PvP players kind of out in the cold with character longevity rewards?
If that's where you're going with this, I'd have to side with Loviatar. There's no reason for them to need a player to be occupied with the content. That only holds true for subscription games.

Encouraging players to keep their characters and not delete them means that sitting around on these same characters for months, they've likely taken them all pretty far through the campaign. Still under the impression that continuing with the same characters is the beneficial thing to do, people would have taken their characters through the existing content quite thoroughly and would be anxiously awaiting more content to buy so they have more to do with those same characters(rather than just being satisfied to do the same old content with constantly re-rolled characters and then have no/need desire to buy the next campaign).

As far as PvP'ers are concerned, what could Anet possible give them anyway? One free unlock every twelve months? A lot of the serious PvP'ers are already UAX anyway.

Kuldebar Valiturus

Kuldebar Valiturus

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2006

Garden City, Idaho

The Order of Relumination (TOoR)

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith
If that's where you're going with this, I'd have to side with Loviatar. There's no reason for them to need a player to be occupied with the content. That only holds true for subscription games.

Encouraging players to keep their characters and not delete them means that sitting around on these same characters for months, they've likely taken them all pretty far through the campaign. Still under the impression that continuing with the same characters is the beneficial thing to do, people would have taken their characters through the existing content quite thoroughly and would be anxiously awaiting more content to buy so they have more to do with those same characters(rather than just being satisfied to do the same old content with constantly re-rolled characters and then have no/need desire to buy the next campaign).

As far as PvP'ers are concerned, what could Anet possible give them anyway? One free unlock every twelve months? A lot of the serious PvP'ers are already UAX anyway.
OK, let's take what you are saying to the full extent.

If all of us "behave" as you say ANet would prefer us to behave, we would play our characters in a chapter and then stop playing for a period of time until the next chapter was released.

Now, what happens to the poor schmucks that adopt Guild Wars during those 'dead times"?

Ghost towns aren't very appealing to new players, there's no one there to make fun of them or, maybe, even help them. I played Asheron's Call 2, trust me empty towns/zones in an otherwise decent game can pretty much ruin things. (also)

Also, a large part of a game's marketing comes from people actually playing the game.

"O, yeah, Guild Wars, I play it for 3 weeks after a campaign comes out but then it gets boring."
That isn't exactly a great way to increase market interest or game sales.

PvP, considered by some to be hugely important, relies on an influx of people, many of those people try their teeth out in PvE for a period of time before hopping into PvP.

edit: added AC2 link, neat article <sniff>